Hello all, sorry if this gets into something that's been asked/bandied about before, but I have a question. On the chronicle sheet for Scenario 26, Lost at Bitter End, there is an item on it, specifically
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That's a good question, and I'm not sure of the answer.
Going by the principles outlined for playing Season 0 adventures, we're supposed to change as little as possible, except using the Pathfinder mechanics. So we use the 3.5 Monster Manual statistics for creatures, rather than the Pathfinder Bestiary versions.
Given that principle, and given that other adventures have offered items available that aren't in the core rulebook, I'd say that, yes, you have the gist of it. At least, that's how I'd rule if it were at my table.
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Eventually we will be updating those so that these inconsistencies are no longer around. Until then, since both items cost 4,000 gps, that sounds like a good substitute.Why cant we have the intial item? Its about as traditional as can be. Or didnt wizards give that one up?
Paizo made some choices in what bonuses should go where which makes Gauntlets of Ogre Power no longer a viable item for the Pathfinder system.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I disagree, Clint. If a character wanted to build "gauntles of ogre power", the system is set up to allow it. The change in body slots was intended to open up item slots for PCs, while still allowing them stat boosts. "Gautlets of ogre power" don't take advantage of that change (and keep the character from using other magical gauntles or gloves) but aren't otherwise "unviable".
And we're not talking about crafting something wonky. We're talking about a specific item that's on the Chronicle sheet. PCs can't craft intelligent items, either, but my high-level summoner has one, bought from a Chronicle sheet with gold and prestige.
I was trying to be coy in my first post, so as to not reveal what items we're talking about. I ended up being unclear. And I can't tell if Michael's agreeing with me, or not.
I don't think that it breaks anything in Pathfinder if the GM allows the character to buy the actual items that are on the chronicle sheets, even if the standard version of those items occupies a different body slot in the Core Rules. And I am very wary of any precedent that might give GMs or players an excuse to just mess around with the items available lists.
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I disagree, Clint. If a character wanted to build "gauntles of ogre power", the system is set up to allow it. The change in body slots was intended to open up item slots for PCs, while still allowing them stat boosts. "Gautlets of ogre power" don't take advantage of that change (and keep the character from using other magical gauntles or gloves) but aren't otherwise "unviable".
And we're not talking about crafting something wonky. We're talking about a specific item that's on the Chronicle sheet. PCs can't craft intelligent items, either, but my high-level summoner has one, bought from a Chronicle sheet with gold and prestige.
I was trying to be coy in my first post, so as to not reveal what items we're talking about. I ended up being unclear. And I can't tell if Michael's agreeing with me, or not.
I don't think that it breaks anything in Pathfinder if the GM allows the character to buy the actual items that are on the chronicle sheets, even if the standard version of those items occupies a different body slot in the Core Rules. And I am very wary of any precedent that might give GMs or players an excuse to just mess around with the items available lists.
When they made Pathfinder, the intent was to limit certain bonuses to certain slots. While you can certainly still have them within the system, I don't think you'll ever see Paizo publish them. That was the gist of what I was saying.
I've had issues with some of the Season 0 chronicle sheets in the past like this and it will all get solved when the mods get updated. Until them, I'd just use what Mike said above.
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Mr Brock, wold you consider putting interusting items on chronicle sheets. IMO most items on chronicle sheets can be bought normaly
Put items like wands with 3rd and 4th level spells with limited charges
or just do away with the dumb rule that you can only buy wands with 50 charges. Put discounted unique wayfinders on chronicle sheets, items
like pathfinder pouchs.
Add more boons to chronicle sheets boons are better that average treasure for the most part.
Add pathfinder chap books from lost or missing pathfinders that give some sort of permant skill bouns. [there were a few chap books like this in part 3 or 4 of CoT AP]
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Adding on to the question then. If a player takes the "gauntlets of ogre" power as "Belt of Giant Strength +2 but on hand slot" - can they upgrade them per the standard PFS rules for upgrading a stat boosting item? Thus, to a +4 (maybe) or one of the odd str+2&trick belts (doubtful)?
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If an old chronicle sheet has "Gloves of Dexterity +2" they need to be substituted for the PF equivalent, in that case belt of incredible dexterity +2. The player is not allowed to purchase the gloves as gloves.
Where does it say that? It seems to me that the old chronicle sheets would provide the player with a unique, un-upgradable item that can't be bought without that chronicle sheet.
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Such as Gamin the Misforged or a gourd of fire burping or a crystal that can add metamagic to a potion or a brand-new special material that inhibits magic? ;)Where does it say that?Where does it say you're allowed to use an item not contained in any Paizo book?
The skymetal noqual is actually in other sources, but for the other ones, definitely. There's actually a whole lot more of unique items too!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I understand the intent to conform with Pathfinder base rules.
However.
I would propose, to Mike and John, that allowing the (Season 0; D&D 3.5-ruleset) Chronicle sheet items to stand would be in keeping with the intent to provide unique items for players. Gauntlets of ogre power +2 aren't game-breaking, take up the (very useful) hand slot, and provide an unusual reward for players.
Other precedents: the cloak of flash and shadow from the Cheliax book (ah, Cheliax book...).
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I would propose, to Mike and John, that allowing the (Season 0; D&D 3.5-ruleset) Chronicle sheet items to stand would be in keeping with the intent to provide unique items for players. Gauntlets of ogre power +2 aren't game-breaking, take up the (very useful) hand slot, and provide an unusual reward for players.
I disagree, I think it would be greatly unbalancing because it lets you double up on stats for MUCH cheaper.
My paladin (who has no use for gloves slot) would have loved to have gauntlets of ogre power and keep his belt +CON only.
I believe the rule was that for Season 0 chronicles where the item does not exist in PF AND it was converted to a different item, we are supposed to convert them to the PF equivalents.
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The skymetal noqual is actually in other sources, but for the other ones, definitely. There's actually a whole lot more of unique items too!Such as Gamin the Misforged or a gourd of fire burping or a crystal that can add metamagic to a potion or a brand-new special material that inhibits magic? ;)Where does it say that?Where does it say you're allowed to use an item not contained in any Paizo book?
All of which are statted out on the chronicle. So I guess one could buy the Gauntlets of Ogre power if they wanted, but since there's no rules published by Paizo for such an item, then they're powerless.
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I am fairly certain that since there is an undisputed and explicit understanding of exactly what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, with no ambiguity or gray area, and that they appear on a Chronicle Sheet, they do that thing that Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, cost what the Chronicle Sheet says they cost, and are a unique item that can't be purchased anywhere else. House ruling that they are non-magical gloves for 4k gold is just that - house ruling.
Where does it say that?Where does it say you're allowed to use an item not contained in any Paizo book?
On the chronicle sheet.
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I am fairly certain that since there is an undisputed and explicit understanding of exactly what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, with no ambiguity or gray area, and that they appear on a Chronicle Sheet, they do that thing that Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, cost what the Chronicle Sheet says they cost, and are a unique item that can't be purchased anywhere else.
And I'm fairly certain you're wrong in your assumption.
On the chronicle sheet.Where does it say that?Where does it say you're allowed to use an item not contained in any Paizo book?
Cool! Show me where it says that on that chronicle sheet.
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I am fairly certain that since there is an undisputed and explicit understanding of exactly what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, with no ambiguity or gray area, and that they appear on a Chronicle Sheet, they do that thing that Gauntlets of Ogre Power do, cost what the Chronicle Sheet says they cost, and are a unique item that can't be purchased anywhere else.
I also disagree. Give this chronicle sheet to a new player, that has NEVER played 3.5 before and he will have a hard time finding it. It's not in the chronicle sheet. It's not in the CRB. It's not in the PRD. Not in archives of nethys. Not even in the PFSRD. They will come back and say "what does this do?" and I bet you money there will be GMs that will say "I don't know what that does".
On the chronicle sheet.Where does it say that?Where does it say you're allowed to use an item not contained in any Paizo book?
show me on the chronicle sheet what they do, or the book and page reference where to find it?
Edit: darn it KYLE, double ninja'd
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While it's tempting to keep going back and forth and be sarcastic, this isn't a debate, it's an argument (since we both have different opinions about what the rules say). Everything that can be said for my side of the argument has been said and explained.
Edit: The right thing for Paizo to do about this is to remove the gray area, by either statting out the item in an updated chronicle sheet, or removing it from the sheet entirely. But in the meantime, we poke around the gray area and try to blacken or whiten it.
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Kyle found the newer post, here is the original post when the campaign switched to PFRPG.
Edit: Yet another post from mike.
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I know I'm late to the party, but a chronicle sheet doesn't override the Additional Resources requirement to have access to the book. So, if you want Gauntlets of Ogre Power all you have to do is show me what book it's in and where it shows up on the Additional Resources. Sound fair?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...a chronicle sheet doesn't override the Additional Resources requirement to have access to the book. ...
Independent of the larger argument, Mystic Lemur, are you sure you want to go down that path? Several of the recent high-tier scenarios have provided, for lack of a better term, objects like tattoos and ioun stones with bite. None of them appear in additional resources, and none of them are statted up in a book. (The ioun stone, in particular, has game stats shown in the scenario that don't appear on the Chronicle.)
It would be awfully tempting for players if they could just dump those items at will. "Sorry. Don't have the complete stats for them. Following the Additional Resources document, I guess they just don't work."
Rather, if an item is on the Chronicle sheet, we hold that a PC has access to it.
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I'm not asserting that it has always been the rule that gloves of dexterity +2 be given to the PC as is. Rather, I'm asserting that the campaign leadership use this as an opportunity to advance a current goal, to put cool items on the Chronicle sheets.
Gloves of dexterity +2 or gauntlets of ogre power +2 follow the lead of some other items that give enhancement bonuses to attributes from body slots other than the headband / belt slot.
I think it would be greatly unbalancing because it lets you double up on stats for MUCH cheaper.
My paladin (who has no use for gloves slot) would have loved to have gauntlets of ogre power and keep his belt +CON only.
It doesn't seem much cheaper to me. A total of 8000 gp instead of 10,000 gp. And as I say, at the cost of a popular body slot. Your paladin has no need of life-saving gloves of first aid or gloves of storing; that's fine. That means he's unusually well-suited for gauntlets of ogre power.
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It doesn't seem much cheaper to me. A total of 8000 gp instead of 10,000 gp. And as I say, at the cost of a popular body slot. Your paladin has no need of life-saving gloves of first aid or gloves of storing; that's fine. That means he's unusually well-suited for gauntlets of ogre power.
The cost difference goes WAY up if the player wants to increase his belt of CON to +4 or +6.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It doesn't seem much cheaper to me. A total of 8000 gp instead of 10,000 gp. And as I say, at the cost of a popular body slot. Your paladin has no need of life-saving gloves of first aid or gloves of storing; that's fine. That means he's unusually well-suited for gauntlets of ogre power.The cost difference goes WAY up if the player wants to increase his belt of CON to +4 or +6.
That just means his STR is using an 8,000gp ioun stone instead, for a total cost increase of 4k over the gauntlets (but his hand slot is now free).
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That just means his STR is using an 8,000gp ioun stone instead, for a total cost increase of 4k over the gauntlets (but his hand slot is now free).It doesn't seem much cheaper to me. A total of 8000 gp instead of 10,000 gp. And as I say, at the cost of a popular body slot. Your paladin has no need of life-saving gloves of first aid or gloves of storing; that's fine. That means he's unusually well-suited for gauntlets of ogre power.The cost difference goes WAY up if the player wants to increase his belt of CON to +4 or +6.
That's what my characters have always done (when needed)
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Independent of the larger argument, Mystic Lemur, are you sure you want to go down that path? Several of the recent high-tier scenarios have provided, for lack of a better term, objects like tattoos and ioun stones with bite. None of them appear in additional resources, and none of them are statted up in a book. (The ioun stone, in particular, has game stats shown in the scenario that don't appear on the Chronicle.)
My Aristocrat certainly hopes that she has access to the 16,000gp gown of resistance that she just purchased off of her most recent Chronicle sheet. She would be quite angry if that Chronicle was selling snake oil.
-Matt
Developer
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Independent of the larger argument, Mystic Lemur, are you sure you want to go down that path? Several of the recent high-tier scenarios have provided, for lack of a better term, objects like tattoos and ioun stones with bite. None of them appear in additional resources, and none of them are statted up in a book. (The ioun stone, in particular, has game stats shown in the scenario that don't appear on the Chronicle.)My Aristocrat certainly hopes that she has access to the 16,000gp gown of resistance that she just purchased off of her most recent Chronicle sheet. She would be quite angry if that Chronicle was selling snake oil.
-Matt
I know the one you're referencing, and that's from an adventure published after the switch to full Pathfinder rules. Furthermore, that item's entry on the Chronicle sheet specifically calls out that yes, it is different than the standard item.
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I know the one you're referencing, and that's from an adventure published after the switch to full Pathfinder rules. Furthermore, that item's entry on the Chronicle sheet specifically calls out that yes, it is different than the standard item.
All is true. It's also a light-hearted example of an item which doesn't work with the above-given hardline statement about Chronicle sheets not overriding the Additional Resources list.
Which is kinda the point. Unique items are unique, and generalized statements don't work very well when considering them.
-Matt
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Actually, a related question.
From Encounter at the Drowning Stones.
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I know the one you're referencing, and that's from an adventure published after the switch to full Pathfinder rules. Furthermore, that item's entry on the Chronicle sheet specifically calls out that yes, it is different than the standard item.All is true. It's also a light-hearted example of an item which doesn't work with the above-given hardline statement about Chronicle sheets not overriding the Additional Resources list.
Which is kinda the point. Unique items are unique, and generalized statements don't work very well when considering them.
-Matt
And neither Gloves of Dexterity nor Gloves of Ogre Power are anything that would qualiffy as unique, just as legacy.
And, as stated by several iterations of campaign leadership, you would replace them with the PF version in place of the 3.5 version.
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Chris, if my chronicle sheet gives me access to an ioun stone from, say, Seeker of Secrets, I still have to own Seeker of Secrets to purchase and make use of that item. If my chronicle sheets gives me the stats for an item that isn't statted up in any book, then that chronicle sheet counts as the Additional Resource (Gamin the Misforged, for example, is statted up on the chronicle sheet).
If I have a chronicle for an item that isn't statted up in any book, and isn't statted up on the chronicle sheet, where am I expected to find the rules? In the scenario? If it's statted up in the scenario, then the scenario would be my Additional Resource. If it's not in the scenario either, as is the case for these "Gauntlets of Ogre Power" then what do I use? "A friend who used to play a different game told me he remembers them working like this in that other game?"
If you're referring to something that isn't covered by any of those, then can I get a spoilered example?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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That is really lame. I had a lot of players excited about them after seeing them in last night's mod. And it nicely fulfills the goal of "things on a chronicle that you couldn't already buy with the fame you'd have by then."
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From Encounter at the Drowning Stones.#34 is after switching to PF, so those should be altered slots.
But am I just supposed to guess at the slots, as they aren't explicitly stated?
It's just that I realized that releasing the slot the first item uses would be kinda useful, as well, most people but that exact item in that slot. The second, not so much.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In general, once you have given your opinion, repeating it a bunch more times isn't going to increase the strength of your argument.
"Encounter at Drowning Stones" is not a 3.5 scenario; it was written for the Pathfinder rules, and includes two items that do not fit the traditional slots. Neither is a mental nor physical attribute enhancer. Leathert's concern is that there is an implied body slot for each, but sometimes those terms are misleading.
(For instance, the Quantium Golem "pendant" is a pin. John C. suggests that the one-shot boon items, like the cause fear/remove fear "mask", don't actually take up any body slots at all.)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In general, once you have given your opinion, repeating it a bunch more times isn't going to increase the strength of your argument.
If that was directed at me, then I think I'm confused about what this thread is all talking about.
I'm tracking 3 different things (and got confused about which I was answering):
1) In 3.5 scenarios (#27 and down), if something was an old 3.5 Stat item it uses the new Headband/Belt model.
2) In PF scenarios (#28 and up like #34) it should all use the new stuff.
3) In #34, there are items that use different slots. Core p459 covers the bracelet question. Headdress isn't covered directly. The only mention of headdress I know is "Funeral Mask of the Four Pharaohs of Ascension" which uses the Head and Eye slot.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In general, once you have given your opinion, repeating it a bunch more times isn't going to increase the strength of your argument.
If that was directed at me, then I think I'm confused about what this thread is all talking about.
Nope. General statement. Probably to myself, if anyone.
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It's like a [i]potion of see invisibility[/b] appearing on a chronicle sheet. They're mistakes. They're the result of authors not knowing the rules and developers not catching the mistake. If you want to argue that you can buy it 'because it's on a chronicle sheet' then fine, but don't expect the item to work. :-)
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It's like a [i]potion of see invisibility[/b] appearing on a chronicle sheet. They're mistakes. They're the result of authors not knowing the rules and developers not catching the mistake. If you want to argue that you can buy it 'because it's on a chronicle sheet' then fine, but don't expect the item to work. :-)
The same DM that makes that ruling should rule the same when the enemy NPCs use it too then.