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Sigh. Scorpion Whip?


Rules Questions


51 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

How does the Scorpion Whip work? Seriously.

Here's how it reads now:

spoiler:
"Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.

Weapon Feature(s): disarm, reach, trip"

To me, that means that it works like this:

1. You need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Scorpion Whip to use it.
2. It gets a ten foot reach, just like standard reach weapons.
3. It does not have the ability to attack squares 5 feet away, just like standard reach weapons.

Now, there is an exception to the rules above:

1. *IF* you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip instead of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Scorpion Whip then you may use the weapon as a Whip.
2. It then has a 15 foot reach, and can attack squares 5 feet away.
3. It then deals non-lethal damage.

The above is how I believe it should work, not only from the wording of the weapon, but also from my sense of how the weapons balance properly with one another.

***

However, apparently the Scorpion Whip reads differently in Legacy of Fire, and in the Adventure's Armory.

Here is the reading I'm told it had in Legacy of Fire:

spoiler:
"This weapon looks much like a standard whip but with a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip, giving it the ability to do lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. In all other ways it works like a normal whip. A creature proficient with whips can use a scorpion whip. Whip-masters of Katapesh usually apply poison the weapon’s spines."

Here is the reading I'm told it had in the Adventure's Armory:

spoiler:
"This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip."

Both of those readings imply that the Scorpion Whip is pretty much just the Whip, only better.

What gives? Does anyone know why all the wording was changed? Was it on purpose? Has the Scorpion Whip been 'nerfed'? Is the Scorpion Whip supposed to just outclass the regular Whip, and the new wording confuses that?


Jo Bird wrote:
Has the Scorpion Whip been 'nerfed'?

The current Scorpion Whip in the PRD is not as good as the old one in the Adv. Armory.

If the new one is essentially errata for the old one, then yes, it was 'nerfed.' If the new one is a new weapon with the same name, then no, you could still buy the old one and have a nice one-handed lethal whip.

FAQing your post.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

back, back, low punch.


Its a mistake (Rare) of the D20 website. Scorpion Whip - has no reach nor does its entry in the Adventurer's armoury - see Errata Here - ok thats a mistake

Update - Gladiator Weapon is Light, with no reach.
AA's Weapon is One-Handed, with disarm, reach & trip - so is the standard whip, but only better and those wanting to damage people in armour would use this over the standard whip.


I should have searched first. Here's some more input:



Monkeygod wrote:

James, in one of my games here on the boards, there's some confusion with the Scorpion Whip from Ultimate Combat.

This line is the cause of said confusion: If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.

Does this mean if you are proficient with a whip, you are also proficient with a scorpion whip? or does it mean that if you can use a whip and scorpion whip, you can perform trip and disarm attempts with the scorpion whip, which according to the weapons chart appears you can not do normally??

Yup; if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.

Which I guess means the (UC, PRD) scorpion whip is a normal light weapon, without the reach, or trip, or disarm abilities. Basically using the handle to stab guys, or using it as a plain, normal, whip.

As to the old (good) SWhip from AA:



A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.

Qadira

i thought a scorpion whip was a slashing spike at the end of the whip instead of just leather, so that you can deal lethal damage with a whip like object. and if you're proficient with the whip you're proficient with the scorpion whip, the way you're interchangeably proficient with a composite longbow when you're proficient with a longbow.

AA errata lists it as disarm, reach, trip, exotic one-handed melee weapon. i presume the reach in this case is like the reach of the whip, 15', instead of 10 ft.

does ultimate combat update that? i don't see a listing for weapons from ultimate combat in the paizo.com/prd


Seraphimpunk wrote:
does ultimate combat update that? i don't see a listing for weapons from ultimate combat in the paizo.com/prd

Linked above or navigate: PRD > Ultimate Combat > Mastering Combat > Gladiator Weapons or first result in a PRD search.


They are two different weapons with the same name. Light - no reach trip or disarm, One-Handed - all the bells and whistles.

Qadira

wow, that's seriously lacking. they took away the reach and everything else? its so confusing to read now. how can it be used as a whip with just a five ft reach and no trip/disarm qualities?

i'm glad they introduced the whip master feats, because no way i'm using a scorpion whip with my castlevania-esque character. before the book came out i could substitute a scoripion whip to deal lethal damage. I don't understand why they made the change


There can't be two weapons with the same name, but slightly different mechanics.

Surely there is a mistake somewhere here, or the newest version of the Scorpion Whip is the one to consider core. Surely. Right?

Sigh.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ultimate Combat is the latest book and therefore is the current and most accurate version to use.

d20pfsrd.com uses the most recent version, i.e. the version from Ultimate Combat. For player convenience we also included the special features of the whip on the Scorpion Whip page so players do not have to go and find the whip to know how it works. We've made it a bit more clear now.

It says that if you want it to work like a whip you also have to have whip proficiency. Meaning, if you JUST have:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon only has the performance feature (it does NOT have the disarm, reach, or trip features.)

However, if you have:

Weapon Proficiency (Whip) AND Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon then has the performance feature AND the disarm, reach, and trip features.

Silver Crusade

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

However, if you have:

Weapon Proficiency (Whip) AND Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon then has the performance feature AND the disarm, reach, and trip features.

Don't you just need Weapon Proficiency (Whip) to use a Scorpion Whip as a whip ?

"If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip."

EDIT:
Btw, off-topic : on the d20pfsrd, the Confusion Bomb alchemical discovery isn't written with an asterisk. As written, it is stackable with any kind of bomb, but the PRD says it isn't a stackable discovery. Just to let you know. :)

Qadira

Oh, I suppose that bits not clear to me. Perhaps...


d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Ultimate Combat is the latest book and therefore is the current and most accurate version to use.

d20pfsrd.com uses the most recent version, i.e. the version from Ultimate Combat. For player convenience we also included the special features of the whip on the Scorpion Whip page so players do not have to go and find the whip to know how it works. We've made it a bit more clear now.

It says that if you want it to work like a whip you also have to have whip proficiency. Meaning, if you JUST have:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon only has the performance feature (it does NOT have the disarm, reach, or trip features.)

However, if you have:

Weapon Proficiency (Whip) AND Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon then has the performance feature AND the disarm, reach, and trip features.

Thank you for the clarification!


d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Oh, I suppose that bits not clear to me. Perhaps...

I don't think they Devs understand what it means themselves. It's a butchered entry that doesn't say what it means.

By strict RAW you would be correct. It seems RAI just means if you already have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) to use it (or are a Bard).

Personally until it gets a serious look I'd stick with the old Legacy of Fire/Adventure's Armory entry. It feels decidedly odd as a Martial Light-Weapon with no reach or special abilities.

Razor Whip would have been a better name.

Compare

UA, Scorpion Whip wrote:
If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
AA, Scorpion Whip wrote:
If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.

Note the lack of "as a" in the Armory entry.


So... from the UC write up you can take EWP (scorpion whip) to get a weapon that is slightly worse than a dagger with the performance special quality or you can get EWP (whip) and buy a scorpion whip, which then somehow becomes longer, can be used to trip and gains the disarm special quality but its razor sharp tip becomes nonlethal or you can get both and have a lethal weapon when fighting adjacent foes but suddenly nonlethal when they are 10-15 feet away?

That's strange.

Qadira

That can't be right. That's also against what James Jacobs and skr say


So any new word on this?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Is there not already a newer thread on this exact same topic?


Topic says '49 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.' but when i search Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Equipment (and even COre Rulebook and others) FAQ there is no scorpion whip entry.

Does anyone know where mentioned answer is?


Seeker of 7 wrote:
Does anyone know where mentioned answer is?

It probably doesn't exist.

I vaguely remember someone from Paizo saying that they prefer simple concise FAQ questions, but people FAQ things all the time, without context, or multiple things on the same topic, and those posts clog up their FAQ queue. So sometime someone will flag them answered just to get rid of them. (There was mention of creating a different flag, but I don't know if anything came of it)

You could create a new thread, asking the question in a very concise simple way, and try to get FAQ flags on it. Jiggy had some success with this recently.

"How does the Scorpion Whip work?" Is probably not something they can really answer in a FAQ format.

I would say it should be phrased something like this:

"When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, does it gain all of the normal features of a whip (Disarm, nonlethal, reach, trip), can it still damage creatures with armor, and does it benefit from feats or abilities that require a whip?"

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

He was SKR, in this post and following.

Very useful reading.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seeker of 7 wrote:

Topic says '49 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.' but when i search Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Equipment (and even COre Rulebook and others) FAQ there is no scorpion whip entry.

Does anyone know where mentioned answer is?

The FAQ system needs to be FAQ'd. Maybe it's working as intended, but it's hard to tell whether or not that is the case. The FAQs themselves are hard to find too.


Does anyone know what a Scorpion Whip actually is? I was imagining it to be like Ivy's weird sword thing from Soul Calibur.

In any case, at least you're not trying to use Dan's Bong from the Eastern Weapons page.


VRMH wrote:
The FAQs themselves are hard to find too.

The top right corner of every page has a "Help/FAQ" link.


Vamptastic wrote:
Does anyone know what a Scorpion Whip actually is? I was imagining it to be like Ivy's weird sword thing from Soul Calibur.

That's an urumi, which has a different set of stats in Pathfinder.


hogarth wrote:
Vamptastic wrote:
Does anyone know what a Scorpion Whip actually is? I was imagining it to be like Ivy's weird sword thing from Soul Calibur.
That's an urumi, which has a different set of stats in Pathfinder.

I think urumi is actually a very long sword with thin enough blade that it is flexible anough to whip around. you can google or youtube it to confirm. Scorpion whip is what I believe is the one that ivy uses from soul calibur.


Wow at this thread....

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