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Let's use celestials!


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

Shadow Lodge

Okay, so we all know that fiends get a LOT more love than celestials. This is because fiends are bad guys, so they make great villains, mooks, whatever. So we've got lots and lots of fiends everywhere, covering every CL from 2 to 20, so that they can get a lot of use and PCs can run into fiends all the time.

But why not also run into celestials all the time?

First off, of course, is that the celestials are good guys. Most of the time, they make bad opponents. But opponents aren't the only kind of person or creature or whatever you meet; how about patrons? Helpful NPCs?

So, here's the challenge for everyone: place a celestial in Golarion, and give him/her/it purpose. Make it someone adventurers will be happy to interact with.

(My allergies are messing with my creative juices right now, but I'll post something later.)


Unless the heavens are lazy there should be Archons figthing the corruption of the worldwound, and azatas triying to drrocate the inferal realm of cheliax.

But the celestial can be a real problem for good Pcs.

A young and impertinent Trumpet archon is triying to deceive the devil into a fight with the demons of the worldwound. He hire the Pc to kill several priest of Asmodeus and a couple of noble from Chelix (priest of asmodeus are evil so the Pc should not have much moral problem with killing they).

Then purpouse is the weak both sies, so mendev can launch a crusde against the worlwound and somebody(i do not know that much about golarion) do the same thing with Cheliax.

His plan is to dangerous, and put in risk thousands of inocent lives, when the Pcs Konws his true intentions will they help him? or will they oposse him?


What about celestials that are in the process of falling from grace?

A battle weary deva or angel who thinks that the best way to deal with mortals is a merciful genocide, maybe? Or a middle-rung archon who is tracking a fiend, tearing down anything that gets in his way, including innocent lives?

There are possibilities for using celestials as antagonists against a good aligned party.

Shadow Lodge

Hidden among the back alleys and tent stalls of Katapesh, there are tales of one Yin Hu. Precious few ever see Yin Hu coming or going, and her stall often moves throughout the bazaar. She is small--many say she must be some kind of gnome, although others describe her as looking like a stunted gnoll. They rarely describe her as that twice. Most of the time, however, she keeps herself tightly cloaked, looking like some kind of hunchback.

And yet, the various descriptions of her appearance, and the inconstancy of where her shop is located, increase the allure of her destination. Yet even though this is enough for the seasoned adventurer or dealer in chance, it is not all that make her sought out by noble and commoner alike. She is reputed to have some of the best deals in all of Golarion. This is because although she will accept coin, she prefers to deal in action. If you find something you like in Yin Hu's stall, and you haggle, she is likely to make you an astounding offer for merely a pittance! But for every deal, there is an action. She will require that some service be performed. Some of them are small, such as buying meals for the next ten beggars you meet, and some are great, such as slaying a local group of cultists to Rovagug. What will she offer? No one knows.

However, it is not only those items that she uncovers through her extended travels that she sells. If she likes you, she can offer services. She will never accept coin for services--"A hand for a hand," she will say. She also does not always provide the service--you may ask her for anything! But every time, she will name her price in action, and it will be final. You may wish for a fortune in gold, and she will ask that you serve in the local orphanage for a year. You may wish for your traveling companion to return from the dead, and she will ask that you donate your magic sword to the church of Sarenrae. And yet, no matter the oddity of the price, take the action, and you will be rewarded.

Yin Hu is a silver-furred vulpinal. She maintains connections to a great many celestials in Golarion and beyond, and is an expert in connecting myriad needs, wants, and offers with everyone to make sure that the greatest amount of good is performed. She knows that many fiends would love to see her fail, and she always needs to stay a step ahead of them... but will always return to Katapesh for business.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Nine Heavenly Guides

The Dipplemere Swamp in Ustalav can be a harsh place: trolls, blood caiman, even rampaging flesh golems can be found along its trails. However, one of the worst enemies of a lost traveler in the swamp can be a Will'o'Wisp. Tired of seeing soul after soul perishing to the fear inducing wisps, an intrepid band of Lantern Archons beseeched the Huntsman to allow them to guide those lost in the swamp and plagued by the Will'o'Wisps.

The Nine Heavenly Guides, as folk have come to call them, appear on gloomy nights (those when the Wisps are at their most conniving), and call out lone travelers, their warm calm reassuring the folk that these are anything but enemies. The Archons generally accompany their companions for the night, moving on to help others the next. They never ask for payment (where would the keep it!?), and always bid the blessings of Erastil before departing.

When confronted by the rare creature dumb enough to attack a cadre of Archons, the Guides use their menacing auras to debilitate, before blasting the creature with their light rays. They provide a brief respite to allow the creature to run away, and if it refuses, they join as a Gestalt, and show their true power.

Andoran

The Golden Vault

A mountain fortress was built centuries ago to contain a powerful Artifact that could tip the tides of the war between Good and Evil. And to keep that Artifact from falling into the wrong hands, Celestials (specifically Archons) were summoned and bound to the Fortress to guard it.

Now, the time has come for our Heroes to go to the Vault and retrieve the Artifact, as it's power is the only thing that can stop the Big Bad. Unfortunately, the Oaths and Rituals binding the Celestials cannot be removed. Though they can see their good intentions, the Vault's Guardians are duty-bound to fight all intruders to the death.

Good thing that to such beings, a physical death just releases them back to the Higher Planes, then...


lonewolf23k wrote:

The Golden Vault

A mountain fortress was built centuries ago to contain a powerful Artifact that could tip the tides of the war between Good and Evil. And to keep that Artifact from falling into the wrong hands, Celestials (specifically Archons) were summoned and bound to the Fortress to guard it.

Now, the time has come for our Heroes to go to the Vault and retrieve the Artifact, as it's power is the only thing that can stop the Big Bad. Unfortunately, the Oaths and Rituals binding the Celestials cannot be removed. Though they can see their good intentions, the Vault's Guardians are duty-bound to fight all intruders to the death.

Good thing that to such beings, a physical death just releases them back to the Higher Planes, then...

Sounds very much like diablo, lord of destruction, I did consider something similar. I like it.

I got a few more general ideas :

- In the guise of a Sage spreading knowledge on the many ways to fight unnatural creatures of darkness and evil and teaches mortals the lessons of the past, possibly requiring a modest fee or minor quest that promotes the cause of good to share the knowledge he holds.

- As a Legendary weapon smith crafting several Holy Avengers for capable champions of good, it places each of these blades in a location that challenges mortal heroes to proof themselves worthy. Using several guises to test their virtues and mettle.

- Celestials will often function as hands of God in the mortal world, they speak for their deity, acting as messengers and prophets and sometimes as protectors of the faith. They will rarely take direct offensive action rather giving worthy mortals aid when they are unable to fight evil by themselves.

- They might be patrons to good witches often ascended mortals that achieved sainthood often examplifying some virtue a deity holds dear, some witches might become powerful enough to summon their patron saint eventually.

- A celestial charged with the protection of a holy site and the sacred artifact that it holds fails his duty the worshippers are killed and the guardian defeated but not destroyed. He recruits powerful and noble adventurers to retrieve the artifact and punish the guilty, he does not take no for an answer and demands justice be done. The celestial is on a dark path blinded by his lust for revenge for the murder of his charges and eventually might come into conflict with the PCs when he takes his 'justice' too far. The PCs can show him the error of his ways, the celestial might eventually Fall from Grace and become a mortal enemy to the PCs, when Asmodeus (or the abyss) claims him as his own, making him more powerful than ever before in the process.


Finally, a thread about celestials in Golarion!! How about something related to the Empyreal Lords?
And how about some celestials actually helping those poor crusaders up at Mendev?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Then there's always "celestial bound into service by evil spellcaster", or at least misguided spellcaster. Perhaps the spellcaster summons a celestial and tricks into believing that someone/something is guilty of something (which they sort of are, so as not to trip the celestial's evil-pinging abilities); the PCs will have to find out why angels are suddenly smiting people guilty of, at most, minor crimes, and then track down the spellcaster responsible for the job.

(One possibility: the ultimate villain is one of many heirs to a large fortune and he, or a spellcaster he's hired, is using summoned celestials to eliminate the ones guilty of various pecadilloes to increase the chance that he will be the ultimate heir -- he has other plans for the ones that his spellcaster can't convince the angels to attack.)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Otza, the father.

A Deva who is playing the long game against Chelax. He sired a number of half celestials centuries ago, and has followed his descendents through out the ages, watching as the blood is diluted, crying for his lost children and sometimes stepping in to conspire to help them. He hopes that by bringing law and good to humanity through their lineages, he can find a champion to free Chelax from Hell's touch.

His greatest loss was an aasimar descendent who turned to Lamashtu...


Nicos wrote:

Unless the heavens are lazy there should be Archons figthing the corruption of the worldwound, and azatas trying to dessicate the inferal realm of cheliax.

But the celestial can be a real problem for good PCs.

A young and impertinent Trumpet archon is trying to deceive the devils into a fight with the demons of the Worldwound. He hires the PC to kill several priests of Asmodeus and a couple of nobles from Cheliax (priest of Asmodeus are evil so the PCs shouldn't have much of a moral problem with killing they).

Then purpose of this is the weaken both sides, so Mendev can launch a crusade against the Worldwound's demons and somebody else (I do not know that much about Golarion) will do the same thing with Cheliax.

His plan is too dangerous, and puts thousands of innocent lives at risk. When the PCs know his true intentions will they help him, or will they oppose him?

So it's a celestial gambit to kill two birds with one stone? I really like this idea, and as a DM I would definitely favour the PCs helping the archon out just to make sure nothing goes wrong. There's a lot of different opportunities I see in this one, and the players could be asked to do anything from evacuating civilians from certain areas to killing those corrupt Chelaxians as mentioned earlier, and maybe then helping Mendev with the crusades either by joining the fight or recruiting help for it (more celestials to the aid!!).

Grand Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:

Otza, the father . . . .

His greatest loss was an aasimar descendent who turned to Lamashtu...

This is Nualia, right.

Man, RotRL is like, sooo 2007.

.... Didn't Ghengis Khan have the same strategy as Otza?!

(One out of every 200 people on the planet are descended from Ghengis Khan.)

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The Fox's Worms

One day while drinking in the Ivy District of Absalom, a mysterious stranger asks for help to clear out an infestation of outsiders. The stranger reveals herself to be a Vulpinal. She provides you with a map into the dungeon level in the Spire of Nex and asks you to destroy a nest of voidworms found within. She is willing to reward you with with a rare work of art. Little does she know a naunet is tearing open a larger hole to Limbo...

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

W E Ray wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Otza, the father . . . .

His greatest loss was an aasimar descendent who turned to Lamashtu...

This is Nualia, right.

Man, RotRL is like, sooo 2007.

.... Didn't Ghengis Khan have the same strategy as Otza?!

(One out of every 200 people on the planet are descended from Ghengis Khan.)

That's the implication yes.

(I prefer to think it's soooo 2012)

I do think that Lawful celestials should be playing the same kind of long games the Devils do. Let the chaotic ones do the impulsive thing. Yes, a hundred thousand may be damned to hell in the interem, but it is their choice and it will save a hundred million...


The Barrowood Stalkers

Inside the forest of Barrowood, not far from Egorian, three sons of light act in the guise of shadow. A female Ghaele leads a female Astral Deva and a male Leonal in ambushes against the Hellknights and priests of Asmodeus stationed nearby. Their names, respectively, are Melian, Arien, and Huan. While hindering the activities of the evil forces, they are collecting every bit of information they can, with the ambitious goal of someday patronize a group of mortals —for mortal affairs should be ultimately handled by mortals— that will topple the foul rulership of present Cheliax and cleanse every remaining trail of fiendish influence. Hellknights and Asmodeous' clergy are acquainting that the forest is haunted by something, but they are still far from suspecting it could be a celestial menace.
The trio associated in the distant past and accomplished many tasks together. Now, having acknowledged the sufferings and evil that run through the mortal realm of Cheliax, they decided to take this subtle crusade with firm hands, and wait for those heroes that will accomplish the ultimate effort.


Why are they attacking Hellknights? Don't they know the organization is focused on the Lawful side of things, and actually KILL devils as an initiation ritual? There's a reason why Paladin Hellknights aren't banned outright, after all. Anyway, my point is that if they wanted a stronger impact, they should be trying to convince some of the Hellknights more towards Lawful Neutral (or Lawful Good) in the case of finding Lawful Evil members. The worshippers of Asmodeus are free game of course, since they worship an evil god regardless of their own alignment.

Grand Lodge

Well the Celestials in question are led by a Chaotic Outsider and there's a good chance the Deva is Chaotic, too.

I could see 'em ambushing Hellknights.


Point taken, even though I think they should focus on the Good aspect of their little quest. They ARE celestials, after all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:


I do think that Lawful celestials should be playing the same kind of long games the Devils do. Let the chaotic ones do the impulsive thing. Yes, a hundred thousand may be damned to hell in the interem, but it is their choice and it will save a hundred million...

They probably do, they just don't have all the expertise the Devils have at their command. After all one side has most of the lawyers. :)

Although that last trope has a cute reversal in the premise of the Kirby Comic "Satan's Six".


No offense, but I'm REALLY starting to hate the "angels are incompetent" trope by now when I've mostly gotten used to seeing them be very damned efficient outside popular media, like in the Bible. I just don't get it how in video games and most stories they just fail every damned time at what they were supposed to do EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE FRIGGIN SERVANTS OF THE GODS.


Icyshadow wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Unless the heavens are lazy there should be Archons figthing the corruption of the worldwound, and azatas trying to dessicate the inferal realm of cheliax.

But the celestial can be a real problem for good PCs.

A young and impertinent Trumpet archon is trying to deceive the devils into a fight with the demons of the Worldwound. He hires the PC to kill several priests of Asmodeus and a couple of nobles from Cheliax (priest of Asmodeus are evil so the PCs shouldn't have much of a moral problem with killing they).

Then purpose of this is the weaken both sides, so Mendev can launch a crusade against the Worldwound's demons and somebody else (I do not know that much about Golarion) will do the same thing with Cheliax.

His plan is too dangerous, and puts thousands of innocent lives at risk. When the PCs know his true intentions will they help him, or will they oppose him?

So it's a celestial gambit to kill two birds with one stone? I really like this idea, and as a DM I would definitely favour the PCs helping the archon out just to make sure nothing goes wrong. There's a lot of different opportunities I see in this one, and the players could be asked to do anything from evacuating civilians from certain areas to killing those corrupt Chelaxians as mentioned earlier, and maybe then helping Mendev with the crusades either by joining the fight or recruiting help for it (more celestials to the aid!!).

Thanks!.

In the issue Celestials Vs Hellknights, I think that the celestials would attack the Knights, after all, the Knights are helping the goverment of cheliax, and in the end helping the hell cause


Icyshadow wrote:
Why are they attacking Hellknights? Don't they know the organization is focused on the Lawful side of things, and actually KILL devils as an initiation ritual? There's a reason why Paladin Hellknights aren't banned outright, after all. Anyway, my point is that if they wanted a stronger impact, they should be trying to convince some of the Hellknights more towards Lawful Neutral (or Lawful Good) in the case of finding Lawful Evil members. The worshippers of Asmodeus are free game of course, since they worship an evil god regardless of their own alignment.

An organization that associates itself with Diabolists is surely not something that does good just because it kills some minor Devils in its initiation rituals.

Apart from that, it is just an adventure hook, and it assumes that the Hellknights being slaughtered belong to an evil order. It doesn't say anywhere that the trio outright slays Paladin Hellknights or any other good guy they might find among the Hellknights' ranks. Rather, since they are looking for someone who can change things, they would probably offer to the good guys the option of cleansing from inside the moral filth that is strangling their own country.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
No offense, but I'm REALLY starting to hate the "angels are incompetent" trope by now when I've mostly gotten used to seeing them be very damned efficient outside popular media, like in the Bible. I just don't get it how in video games and most stories they just fail every damned time at what they were supposed to do EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE FRIGGIN SERVANTS OF THE GODS.

When I was 12, at church camp, we got into a debate on who would win, G_d or the Devil. We had some kids argue that the Devil would win because he can cheat and G_d can't. I argued that if all of Creation was on the line, G_d would throw rules out the window and just win. I had read the gap theory.* and it stuck in my young mind.

So my celestials aren't ineffective, they're just pulling their punches. They could (for example) close the worldwound, with the side effect of rendering huge areas of the planet barren of life. If the crusaders fall and it spreads unchecked, then they would do it. Better to raze the planet and increase Pharisma's backlog than let it fall into the abyss. Basically, when they take the gloves off, continents die.

*

Spoiler:
The gap theory argued that the first line of Hebrew "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth." translates as 'created from nothing' while the rest of the creation story reads 'created from something'. So, from a Christian POV, between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 G_d created everything, then Satan fell then in the resulting war, G_d blew up reality so bad it took HIM 7 days to put it back together. This lead a very young Matthew picturing angels with hardhats driving steam rollers/cranes and using push brooms to clean up the mess while G_d got back to creation. The amused adult Matthew finds it funny that one could take the Gap theory and argue it supports evolution. "He created the trees from something why not ferns?"


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I don’t know how to explain it! The winds shrieked and raged all around us, so much so that I had to cut the oxen loose and have Marna help me turn the wagon over to use as a shelter. We had the children crawl underneath the wagon first, my beautiful Marna slipped underneath next and then that left me. I saw the clouds reach down from the sky like a spinning hammer and strike the ground while the winds roared like a dragon. I knew we had reached our end but I squeezed under that wagon and held my family close. I prayed to the gods above to be gentle with the ones I loved most and that’s when it happened. Although we could all hear the winds roaring louder, the winds all around the wagon grew still. That’s when the laughter started, but it was the laughter of the most merry and heart felt joy! When the wind storm passed we had been spared and prayed my thanks to the gods.

The Windstorm Guard
The Windstorm Guard is a group of five Bralani who the Gods send in response to those who are caught in violent wind storms. The origin of the storm can be natural or magical without affecting the response of the Windstorm Guard. When sent to aid those in need the Windstorm Guard will surround those in danger using their wind form and acting as a shield from the winds violence. Being Bralani they find great joy in the storm itself and are known for laughing with pleasure while protecting their charges.
The likelihood of the Windstorm Guard being sent in response to a prayer is dependent upon alignment. Use a d% to determine if the Windstorm Guard is sent in response to the PCs prayers.
Chaotic Good – 10%
Neutral Good/Chaotic Neutral – 5%
Lawful Good/True Neutral – 1%

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
When I was 12, at church camp, we got into a debate on who would win, G_d or the Devil. We had some kids argue that the Devil would win because he can cheat and G_d can't. I argued that if all of Creation was on the line, G_d would throw rules out the window and just win. I had read the gap theory.* and it stuck in my young mind.

Best answer to this... comes from "Oh God! You Devil" with both sides being played by George Burns.

The fate of the hero, with Humanity vs the Devil's forever swearing off activity on Earth thrown in for a bonus has been left to a poker game between the two.

It comes down to one draw and the Devil folds. Then God reveals all he had was a pair of twos.

The Devil: You beat me. You bluffed with a busted flush? How? How did you beat me?
God: I put the fear of me in you.

Taldor

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I completely agree that celestials need some love! I LOVE the thematics that celestials (especially angels) bring to a story. I consider them hugely badass, to the point that I have a campaign concept that I'm chewing on that uses them as major force at play.

I don't have any ideas for a new celestial as the OP requested, but if any devs are reading this...

PLEASE MAKE CELESTIAL COUNTERPARTS TO THE BOOKS OF THE DAMNED!!!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Wildebob wrote:

I completely agree that celestials need some love! I LOVE the thematics that celestials (especially angels) bring to a story. I consider them hugely badass, to the point that I have a campaign concept that I'm chewing on that uses them as major force at play.

I don't have any ideas for a new celestial as the OP requested, but if any devs are reading this...

PLEASE MAKE CELESTIAL COUNTERPARTS TO THE BOOKS OF THE DAMNED!!!

Not as much call to them, because you aberrant folks beside, not that many campaigns are going to be about looking for and killing angels.

Taldor

<sigh> A guy can wish, can't he?

Cheliax

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Astral Wanderer wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Why are they attacking Hellknights? Don't they know the organization is focused on the Lawful side of things, and actually KILL devils as an initiation ritual? There's a reason why Paladin Hellknights aren't banned outright, after all. Anyway, my point is that if they wanted a stronger impact, they should be trying to convince some of the Hellknights more towards Lawful Neutral (or Lawful Good) in the case of finding Lawful Evil members. The worshippers of Asmodeus are free game of course, since they worship an evil god regardless of their own alignment.

An organization that associates itself with Diabolists is surely not something that does good just because it kills some minor Devils in its initiation rituals.

Apart from that, it is just an adventure hook, and it assumes that the Hellknights being slaughtered belong to an evil order. It doesn't say anywhere that the trio outright slays Paladin Hellknights or any other good guy they might find among the Hellknights' ranks. Rather, since they are looking for someone who can change things, they would probably offer to the good guys the option of cleansing from inside the moral filth that is strangling their own country.

Celestials. Pfah. As often as they embody the full noble character of their aura, they make themselves interpreters of all that is good and just. Without a knowledge of natural philosophy, they can be as deranged as any being of the abyss, albeit less dangerous.

The Archons I have never met, but rarely do they take direct action against members of the Orders. The Order of the Godclaw coordinates with them in Mendev and elsewhere. Often, they are persuaded of the value of our works, the wisdom of the Chain.

The Azata, they are the celestials I dread to see. It is in their nature to act first without consideration for the greater good. They would rather see the endless bleeding of a civil war than tolerate for an instant the notion that the Empress of Cheliax makes alliance with the Prince of Darkness. Simple for them to make such decisions for others. I have fought two azata in my time, and smote them both. Atonement for such things is difficult.

And the agathion? They are mysterious. At once understanding and condemning. They would do well to keep their lessons in distant Nirvana. Let the Vudrans puzzle over such enlightenment. I will give no tongue to it.

There is much to admire in the effort celestials put into being Tyrants Unto Themselves. But I would have Every Man A Tyrant Unto Himself. Man. Not these over-excitable servants of the gods. Even in the days of Aroden, they took up arms against men, as though they knew better than He.

---

But let me tell you now of Erem-Thingol, Shield-Bearer to Ragathiel. Ragathiel, greatest of the Empyeal Lords, embodies the heart of the Hellknight ideal: born of Hell and Fire, he achieved victory over his nature through Order, Discipline and Mercilessness. Honor to Ragathiel, whose sword keeps the way.

Sympathetic to humanity, sensing the plight of Cheliax, and understanding the intentions of the Founder, Ragathiel sent Erem-Thingol unto Golarion. Loyal, the archon went forth. The tiefling offspring of man's indiscretion and weakness, the vulnerable who have no savior of their own, those are the flock of Erem-Thingol. He appears with the setting sun to keep them from the temptation of their heritage, to guard them from the talons of Hell and guide them toward righteousness and order. Five are the names of Hellknights said to have been sponsored into the Orders by Erem-Thingol, each peerless warriors cursed with infernal heritage. They are the only tieflings ever to wear the armor, and each acquitted themselves heroically before their gruesome ends. Other tieflings he has carried from Cheliax, or hidden from retribution. He is implacable in his duty, bound one day to return to heaven and Ragatheil's side and so is said to be invulnerable in battle.

Some within the Orders believe that Erem-Thingol sympathizes with the Orders. In heretical weakness, they actually pray to Ragathiel and Erem-Thingol for the strength to resist Hell. The fools mistake respect for reverence, and forget that strength comes from Discipline within, not providence without.

But you did not hear such things from me.

Andoran

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Matthew Morris wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
No offense, but I'm REALLY starting to hate the "angels are incompetent" trope by now when I've mostly gotten used to seeing them be very damned efficient outside popular media, like in the Bible. I just don't get it how in video games and most stories they just fail every damned time at what they were supposed to do EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE FRIGGIN SERVANTS OF THE GODS.

When I was 12, at church camp, we got into a debate on who would win, G_d or the Devil. We had some kids argue that the Devil would win because he can cheat and G_d can't. I argued that if all of Creation was on the line, G_d would throw rules out the window and just win. I had read the gap theory.* and it stuck in my young mind.

So my celestials aren't ineffective, they're just pulling their punches. They could (for example) close the worldwound, with the side effect of rendering huge areas of the planet barren of life. If the crusaders fall and it spreads unchecked, then they would do it. Better to raze the planet and increase Pharisma's backlog than let it fall into the abyss. Basically, when they take the gloves off, continents die.

*** spoiler omitted **

I really like this, including the spoiler. (Where do I find more info on that?)

Wildebob, maybe you could pop over to Super Genius's 52 in 52 thread and suggest the Celestials topic to them?


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By the way, we've seen so many darn fallen angels (the Sons of Perdition being just one of many examples) so far, but why haven't we seen any ascended fiends yet? I'd love to see some followers of Ragathiel (since he's actually the son of an Archdevil) or Sarenrae being reformed Devils and Daemons of some sort, and how they'd be feeling sorta bad for their damned counterparts.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
By the way, we've seen so many darn fallen angels (the Sons of Perdition being just one of many examples) so far, but why haven't we seen any ascended fiends yet? I'd love to see some followers of Ragathiel (since he's actually the son of an Archdevil) or Sarenrae being reformed Devils and Daemons of some sort, and how they'd be feeling sorta bad for their damned counterparts.

It's a thousand times easier for an angel to fall than an infernal to rise. Good and Evil are not symmetrical, the balance is heavily tilted in favor of the latter.

That being said, the rpg that best treated this subject is most likely In Nominee. One reason it works is that the world is an overall place of Grey on Grey Morality.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
W E Ray wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Otza, the father . . . .

His greatest loss was an aasimar descendent who turned to Lamashtu...

This is Nualia, right.

Man, RotRL is like, sooo 2007.

.... Didn't Ghengis Khan have the same strategy as Otza?!

(One out of every 200 people on the planet are descended from Ghengis Khan.)

That's all just fun-time crazy maths: everyone of European descent is descended from Confusius, Nefertiti, Charlemagne and Muhammad.

linky

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I.Malachi wrote:


I really like this, including the spoiler. (Where do I find more info on that?)

Wildebob, maybe you could pop over to Super Genius's 52 in 52 thread and suggest the Celestials topic to them?

Here's One link.

Disclaimer Matthew does not claim aby responcibility for heresy, or being burned at the stake. :-)


Matthew Morris wrote:
I.Malachi wrote:


I really like this, including the spoiler. (Where do I find more info on that?)

Wildebob, maybe you could pop over to Super Genius's 52 in 52 thread and suggest the Celestials topic to them?

Here's One link.

Disclaimer Matthew does not claim aby responcibility for heresy, or being burned at the stake. :-)

There is a lot at "Stake". But I am sure that you are not the only one that they would burn at the stake.


LazarX wrote:


It's a thousand times easier for an angel to fall than an infernal to rise. Good and Evil are not symmetrical, the balance is heavily tilted in favor of the latter.

If we speak of Humans, maybe (maybe). But Outsiders are embodiements of one thing or the other, and, as such, good and evil are no different than the poles of a magnet. Equal and opposite.

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