Of Armor and Magic


Product Discussion


Why does the Core Rulebook list non-magical armors and shields in the Magical Armor section?

For example we have the following in the non-magical shields:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html

Buckler
Shield, light wooden
Shield, light steel
Shield, heavy wooden
Shield, heavy steel
Shield, tower

But in the magical armor and shield page we have
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/armor.html

Darkwood buckler
Darkwood shield
Mithral heavy shield

alongside a number of magical shields.

Why does making a nonmagical shield out of nonmagical mithral or darkwood make it different than making a shield out of nonmagical wood or steel?


special materials (darkwood/mithrill/adamantite) change how the items function. They're still non-magic, but more special than a standard version.


I've seen a few posters quoting a rule that says you can't have magical variations of specific armors/shields. Doesn't listing the non-magical armors and shields listed here on the specific shields and armor tables make these types of armor inelligible for enchanting with magic?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Caedwyr wrote:
I've seen a few posters quoting a rule that says you can't have magical variations of specific armors/shields. Doesn't listing the non-magical armors and shields listed here on the specific shields and armor tables make these types of armor inelligible for enchanting with magic?

They're really examples. So elven chain is really chain mail (150) plus mithral (4000) So if someone says you can't have 'elven chain +1' just get mithral chain +1 and it's all good. (Note the things that are special materials only don't have a Construction line)

Some special items there's a debate on enchanting because of how you 'break out' the properties. Celestial Armor is a good example. At 22,400, it's more expensive than +4 armor, but less than +5. If you subtract the +3 bonus as a flat 9000, what is the breakdown of the remaining 13,400? Will it 'only' cost 5000 to make it +4 armor? etc.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
I've seen a few posters quoting a rule that says you can't have magical variations of specific armors/shields. Doesn't listing the non-magical armors and shields listed here on the specific shields and armor tables make these types of armor inelligible for enchanting with magic?

They're really examples. So elven chain is really chain mail (150) plus mithral (4000) So if someone says you can't have 'elven chain +1' just get mithral chain +1 and it's all good. (Note the things that are special materials only don't have a Construction line)

Some special items there's a debate on enchanting because of how you 'break out' the properties. Celestial Armor is a good example. At 22,400, it's more expensive than +4 armor, but less than +5. If you subtract the +3 bonus as a flat 9000, what is the breakdown of the remaining 13,400? Will is 'only' cost 5000 to make it +4 armor? etc.

That makes for some weird pricing. If Elven Chainmail (5,150 gp), is just Mithral Chainmail (4,150 gp), then why have the entry for Elven Chainmail priced almost 1,000 gp higher? Do the elves have some sort of trademark on the word "elven" which pushes the pricing higher?

And you've still got the problem of being unable to create a +1 Darkwood Buckler, since that's a specific shield. (Darkwood Buckler costs 257 gp, a buckler made of darkwood costs 150+5x10+15 = 215 gp).


Quote:
Why does the Core Rulebook list non-magical armors and shields in the Magical Armor section?

As I said in another thread:

Quote:
Because the magic item chapter also doubles as a random treasure generator. Non-magical weapons and armor made from special materials were included so there was a way for those items to be randomly generated. Otherwise, those items would never show up in-game unless specifically placed there.

There had to be a way to put the items made from special material into the game.

Quote:
I've seen a few posters quoting a rule that says you can't have magical variations of specific armors/shields. Doesn't listing the non-magical armors and shields listed here on the specific shields and armor tables make these types of armor inelligible for enchanting with magic?

That is just their opinion. There is no rule saying that. The only real problem with doing so is that the price for the specific item isn't always clear how they got it, so changing it can be a problem. But there isn't anything in the rules stopping you from customizing the specific armors/weapons. The specific items are the way those items are usually found - your typical Flame Tongue is usually a +1 flaming burst longsword, adamantine is usually made into plate armors, and mithral is usually made into chain armors. Nothing stops those being made into different things, its just what is typically made.

Quote:

Adding New Abilities

Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.

There are no exceptions to that listed anywhere in the book. So, specific armor/weapons can be customized just fine.

Quote:
That makes for some weird pricing. If Elven Chainmail (5,150 gp), is just Mithral Chainmail (4,150 gp), then why have the entry for Elven Chainmail priced almost 1,000 gp higher? Do the elves have some sort of trademark on the word "elven" which pushes the pricing higher?

Because someone at Paizo can't do basic math? Or it is a type. 3.5 D&D had the correct pricing of 4,150.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

NOTE!!!

Elven Chain and standard mithral chainmail are NOT the same thing.

From the rules for mithral:

Mithral wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

From the description of Elven Chain:

Elven Chain wrote:
This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.

I can't tell you how many people fail to notice the difference and then come up with elaborate theories and formulas and "house rules" to compensate for what isn't actually a discrepancy in the first place.

themoreyouknow.jpg


kinda glad this thread started as in a game I have gotten the chance to have some armor constructed from a few young white dragons we recently encountered. I'm having a bit of an issue with the dragonhide multiplier though and when it applies.

I'm thinking of getting an agile breastplate made with a special quality (glamour)

I think the market price should be ...

(agile breastplate 400gp + mastercraft 150gp) X2 dragonhide
+1 enhancement 1000gp + glamour 2700gp

for a total of 4,800gp

question is, does the dragonhide multiplier apply to just the base suit of mastercraft armor or the entire enchanted armor?

edit: just added some parenthesis and according to Jiggy (a few posts down) it looks like I'm pricing it correctly :)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Jiggy wrote:

I can't tell you how many people fail to notice the difference and then come up with elaborate theories and formulas and "house rules" to compensate for what isn't actually a discrepancy in the first place.

themoreyouknow.jpg

Thanks Jiggy, I missed that myself. I know the clarification of Mithral was a Pathfinder thing, but forgot that.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

gourry187 wrote:

kinda glad this thread started as in a game I have gotten the chance to have some armor constructed from a few young white dragons we recently encountered. I'm having a bit of an issue with the dragonhide multiplier though and when it applies.

I'm thinking of getting an agile breastplate made with a special quality (glamour)

I think the market price should be ...

agile breastplate 400gp + mastercraft 150gp X2 dragonhide
+1 enhancement 1000gp + glamour 2700gp

for a total of 4,800gp

question is, does the dragonhide multiplier apply to just the base suit of mastercraft armor or the entire enchanted armor?

The rules on dragonhide just say "twice as much as masterwork armor of that type". So you only multiply the cost of masterwork armor of that type (i.e., without magical enhancements).


Jiggy wrote:

NOTE!!!

Elven Chain and standard mithral chainmail are NOT the same thing.

From the rules for mithral:

Mithral wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

From the description of Elven Chain:

Elven Chain wrote:
This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.

I can't tell you how many people fail to notice the difference and then come up with elaborate theories and formulas and "house rules" to compensate for what isn't actually a discrepancy in the first place.

themoreyouknow.jpg

Wouldn't that make Elven Chainmail more appropriate to list with the other types of non-magical armor in the Equipment chapter?

(There's still the pricing discrepency between a buckler made of darkwood and a Darkwood Buckler, probably more others as well).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Caedwyr wrote:
Wouldn't that make Elven Chainmail more appropriate to list with the other types of non-magical armor in the Equipment chapter?

Expecting things to be listed in the most convenient place is something I gave up on a long time ago. I suggest you do the same.

Quote:
(There's still the pricing discrepency between a buckler made of darkwood and a Darkwood Buckler, probably more others as well).

Actually, you'll notice that you normally can't make a darkwood buckler, as only the stats for a steel buckler are given (thus you don't have a weight figure for a wooden buckler, for purposes of pricing) and items not normally made of wood generally can't be made of darkwood.

Thus, the "darkwood buckler" listed in the Magic Items chapter is, in a sense, a special case/unique item.


Jiggy wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
Wouldn't that make Elven Chainmail more appropriate to list with the other types of non-magical armor in the Equipment chapter?
Expecting things to be listed in the most convenient place is something I gave up on a long time ago. I suggest you do the same.

Sanity and sense, you lose. I'll take your advice and just expect things to be random and illogical from here on. It's an area of improvement for Pathfinder 2.0.

Jiggy wrote:
Quote:
(There's still the pricing discrepency between a buckler made of darkwood and a Darkwood Buckler, probably more others as well).

Actually, you'll notice that you normally can't make a darkwood buckler, as only the stats for a steel buckler are given (thus you don't have a weight figure for a wooden buckler, for purposes of pricing) and items not normally made of wood generally can't be made of darkwood.

Thus, the "darkwood buckler" listed in the Magic Items chapter is, in a sense, a special case/unique item.

That's weird, but given you above advice, I should probably be happy the pricing/restrictions aren't "strawberry", because "hey, why not?".

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Okay, okay; I was being a bit sarcastic on the "rational placement of rules text" thing. So sue me. ;)


Jiggy wrote:
Okay, okay; I was being a bit sarcastic on the "rational placement of rules text" thing. So sue me. ;)

I was agreeing with you. You made a good argument, and previous experiences are in line with what you suggested to be my approach.


Because the only people who would reasonably make such items out of special materials would use magic to build them, as to circumvent the multiple month process to craft in a mundane fashion.


Not that it matters, since this thread has run it's course, but why was it moved to the Paizo Products section, if the thread is questions and answers about the organization of magical and non-magical armors and the effects the organization may have on whether or not a specific type of armor can be enchanted as a result of where an armor is located in the book?

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / Of Armor and Magic All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Product Discussion