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Channeling the Cosmos: A guide to the Oracle


Advice

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Read the new Warrior tactics - i approve :-)
2- handed weapons should be an option - but it is not the only one.

And again - love the many options that comes with Spells known, and then i Looked at the Spells known of my batte oracle - if i should take my own advice - short duration buffs that increase Dam - one known is enough. I could have had MORE options...


Merck wrote:

On two handed weapons and the battle mystery:

While you can two hand a one handed melee weapon for a similar effect most of the time if you are an oracle with the battle mystery grestsword, greataxe, earthbreaker and lucerne hammer (has reach) are by far your best options (dwarven waraxe to a less degree if you are a dwarf...). The reason for that is the damage dice multiplayer of the enlarge person spell, 3d6 + 1.5 x STR mod damage at first lvl is pretty good.

The battle oracle wouldn't be able to cast Enlarge Person until 2nd level, but yeah, this is decent advice for the very low levels.

Merck wrote:

Barbarians are great melee damage dealers out of the box and so can be the battle oracle. Spellcasting IS a huge asset specialy at higher lvls. At lower lvls it only shines as battlefield control, which the cleric list is not that great at in the beginning. At the cost of one spell per enconter (and this gets even more important if you have multiple combats everyday) the battle oracle with the right two hand weapon can be one of the top damage dealers of the party from lvl 1 to 5.

It also gives you an option for good melee dmg if your character was created with a low point buy, like 15 or lower, without needing to be a rage prophet. Str 14 and Dex 12 should be enough to be decent.

The battle oracle is definitely something I'll be tackling in the multiclass section, along with Nature's Warden and the Mystic Theurge. Even at 15 point buy it's pretty easy for a Warior type to get Str 16, Con 12, Cha 15 while only dumping wisdom.

Bigtuna wrote:

Why World i take a class with nine lvl's of spellcasting?

1) i like options! Every known Spell is a new option. And with the Right Spell list i Can contribute to Every encounter.

Like I said, the tactics section was written with the intent to expand a new player's view of the class and role. It's left intentionally vague. Mostly I'm hoping that players won't look at the spell list and think "well, how can this make me a better fighter?" but rather "Well, how can I use this to secure my own team's victory?"

Bigtuna wrote:

2) at LOw levels Spells are a rare resurse and if i Can walk into melee without spending Spell slots it a succes. And As a Warrior oracle not All encounters have to include casting Spells. Which makes it more enjoyable Playing a Warrior oracle than an Arcane Caster that (at low levels) have to consider is it worth casting this Spell or should he save it for later

3) some encounters are short and easy - spending a single buff Spell is enough - ill use my Spell castings power to speak with the dead after While the Mighty barbarian is recovering from his rage.

4) other encounters have many foes and /or a BBEG these Can take a While. Thats When the Extra options / Spells should be used in combat. A Wall here, a few buffs a debuff and When All Else fáils hit it untill it dies.

So in some encounters i agree - cast Spells (even 2-3 or more). In others cast one. And if the encounter seems easy - just hit it!
But if i Wanted to change the World with Spell casting i World Play Arcane caster.

I don't feel like any of this warrants saying in the guide. Playing a class successfully is about gauging your enemy's strengths vs. your own and adjusting to win. It's the sort of thing you learn by actually playing the game. I feel like if I mentioned all this it would get too lengthy and convoluted, you know?

I totally agree that some fights aren't worth your spells, especially at the lower levels. But also, at the lower levels you really don't have a lot of spells to begin with so a player's instinct is going to be to ration them out.

I just really want to encourage players to actually use their spells rather than toss on a buff or two and start fighting. The spell list is wide and varied, and there are a crap-ton of powerful options even for the warrior sorts. I agree with some of what you're saying, but this is an optimization guide and most optimized thing a player can do is actually use her spells. They're simply too important to simply discard in favor of a few additional attacks each combat.


Bigtuna wrote:

Read the new Warrior tactics - i approve :-)

2- handed weapons should be an option - but it is not the only one.

And again - love the many options that comes with Spells known, and then i Looked at the Spells known of my batte oracle - if i should take my own advice - short duration buffs that increase Dam - one known is enough. I could have had MORE options...

Some of those short duration buffs become monsters when you get a hold of Quicken metamagic (through rods or feats).

Osirion

I just want to say thankyou for guiding this lowly noon away from dazzling display and showing him the light. My build had improved immensely because of your guide.

Shadow Lodge

Love, love, love the guide.

One of the main reasons my Life Oracle rocks so hard.

Quick update for your spells section:

Quote:
Archon’s Aura (***): Useful for all sorts of oracles, but the limited range makes it slightly better for a melee type. Keep in mind that as soon an enemy is affected they’ll be subject to the penalties until the duration expires or they hit you, so feel free to dodge into melee just have them enter the aura. This spell will hit your allies, so cast it before battle and have each one of them give you a friendly unarmed strike in the shoulder. Nonlethal of course.

However, in the pfsrd it says:

Quote:
You gain a powerful aura, similar to an archon’s aura of menace. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of you must make a Will save to resist the effects of this aura. If the creature fails, it takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and saving throws and to Armor Class for the duration of this spell, or until it successfully hits you with an attack. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by this particular casting of archon’s aura.

Wouldn't by definition your allies not be hostile to you leaving them untouched by the spell? That should bump the spell up and obviate the last two sentences, no?


Choon wrote:
I just want to say thankyou for guiding this lowly noon away from dazzling display and showing him the light. My build had improved immensely because of your guide.

I'm glad! I don't think Dazzling Display is a bad feat by any stretch, only that it's not a great option for oracles. I've seen it do wonders on Bards, and on animal companions.

Sammy T wrote:

Love, love, love the guide.

One of the main reasons my Life Oracle rocks so hard.

*blush*

Sammy T wrote:

Quick update for your spells section:

Quote:
Archon’s Aura (***): Useful for all sorts of oracles, but the limited range makes it slightly better for a melee type. Keep in mind that as soon an enemy is affected they’ll be subject to the penalties until the duration expires or they hit you, so feel free to dodge into melee just have them enter the aura. This spell will hit your allies, so cast it before battle and have each one of them give you a friendly unarmed strike in the shoulder. Nonlethal of course.

However, in the pfsrd it says:

Quote:
You gain a powerful aura, similar to an archon’s aura of menace. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of you must make a Will save to resist the effects of this aura. If the creature fails, it takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and saving throws and to Armor Class for the duration of this spell, or until it successfully hits you with an attack. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by this particular casting of archon’s aura.
Wouldn't by definition your allies not be hostile to you leaving them untouched by the spell? That should bump the spell up and obviate the last two sentences, no?

Haha, see, I read this as affecting any creature who exhibits hostile action. I'll add a note that this could be based on DM interpretation, but I'm not sure that makes it a blue spell. It's sorta riding the line between green and blue.

Osirion

Thx for the effort Sean, I really appreciate it!

I'm getting ready to make a Life oracle and this has been a big help.
Several things in the guide I probably had not considered closely enough. Helped keep me from making some rough choices.

I've a couple points of confusion though.

First one is the abilities.
On the caster build, why are you recommending a 14 in strength?

I don't intend to get in melee combat any more than is unavoidable. I would think that should be shuffled to one of the 12's or even the 10.

Second, I was surprised at how poorly you rated the healing and channeling possibilities. The few people I've talked to who have tried the life oracle really rave about them.

(We will be going into an undead heavy campaign so I will definitely be taking them.)


Jorin wrote:

Thx for the effort Sean, I really appreciate it!

I'm getting ready to make a Life oracle and this has been a big help.
Several things in the guide I probably had not considered closely enough. Helped keep me from making some rough choices.

I've a couple points of confusion though.

First one is the abilities.
On the caster build, why are you recommending a 14 in strength?

I don't intend to get in melee combat any more than is unavoidable. I would think that should be shuffled to one of the 12's or even the 10.

You know your character better than I possibly could, and the guide is written from a generalist standpoint. However, there are a couple things to keep in mind for your blossoming oracle:

  • With the exception of two mysteries, caster oracles are going to be in medium+ armor. Chainmail/Breastplate are the two best medium armors for an oracle with a low dexterity, and they weight 40lbs and 30lbs respectively. At 14 strength you've got a light carrying capacity of 58lbs, which also needs to include your gear. Even magical bags don't lessen your load much- a handy haversack weighs 5lbs, and a bag of holding weighs between 15 and 60lbs. That of course doesn't even count your shield, which weighs between 5 and 15lbs.
  • Unless you simply choose to not participate when you can't cast a spell, weapon combat is nearly unavoidable for an oracle before level 5. You don't have enough spells, and you certainly don't have enough spells applicable to every situation. Once you get into your groove you'll do fine, but almost all oracles end up in melee from time to time. And you suck at ranged attack unless you choose to pursue dexterity.
  • You've got a surprising amount of touch attack spells, and investing in strength means you won't have to take a feat to have a better shot at landing them.
  • It's a boost to your CMD, but then again so too would be a 14 dexterity.

I only have these here as a suggestion, so take them as you will.

Jorin wrote:

Second, I was surprised at how poorly you rated the healing and channeling possibilities. The few people I've talked to who have tried the life oracle really rave about them.

(We will be going into an undead heavy campaign so I will definitely be taking them.)

I'm not actually sure what you're talking about here. I'd be happy to discuss this if you can be more specific!

The life oracle is definitely a mystery that shines against the undead.

Osirion

Got another question.

From the dual cursed archtype.
"Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day."

Does this mean I can hit every creature I meet with this 1 a day?!?
If yes, Wow!

Osirion

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
... At 14 strength you've got a light carrying capacity of 58lbs ...

Since most will probably be wearing medium armor anyway, is there any problem with going on up to a medium load? Str 14 would give 116 lbs which seems like overkill for a caster. I will probably drop it to 12. Might even do 10 if I plan for the mule back cords and haversack.

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
... I'm not actually sure what you're talking about here. I'd be happy to discuss this if you can be more specific! ...

"... channel isn't fantastic... modest ability...don't use in combat... combat healing is a poor choice...healing in combat isn't something your likely to be doing...etc..."

I guess you rated several of them as blue and green, but the text sounds like you are really against them.

Everyone I talked to was up on the life mystery since it makes combat healing viable and worthwhile again.

Also, from my experience combat healing has always been alot more necessary than it seems like from reading the boards. Even when we don't have a build that is good at it we often seem to find it necessary to keep someone from dropping.


Jorin wrote:

Got another question.

From the dual cursed archtype.
"Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day."

Does this mean I can hit every creature I meet with this 1 a day?!?
If yes, Wow!

Yep. It's fantastic.

Jorin wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
... At 14 strength you've got a light carrying capacity of 58lbs ...

Since most will probably be wearing medium armor anyway, is there any problem with going on up to a medium load? Str 14 would give 116 lbs which seems like overkill for a caster. I will probably drop it to 12. Might even do 10 if I plan for the mule back cords and haversack.

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
... I'm not actually sure what you're talking about here. I'd be happy to discuss this if you can be more specific! ...

"... channel isn't fantastic... modest ability...don't use in combat... combat healing is a poor choice...healing in combat isn't something your likely to be doing...etc..."

I guess you rated several of them as blue and green, but the text sounds like you are really against them.

Everyone I talked to was up on the life mystery since it makes combat healing viable and worthwhile again.

It's not that I think they're bad choices- I just think they're not great for what they seem to be expected to do. They provide a lot of healing, but past 6-8th level they just won't be healing enough to be worth your action in combat during most situations.

Jorin wrote:
Also, from my experience combat healing has always been alot more necessary than it seems like from reading the boards. Even when we don't have a build that is good at it we often seem to find it necessary to keep someone from dropping.

Yeah, the boards do love their polarity, don't they?

Healing in combat isn't unnecessary, but often it's not a good option for you. If the rogue takes a hit there's no reason to heal her up now- she fights just as well with 2/3 of her health as she did at full. Instead you could use your turn to buff an ally, disable an enemy, or summon a companion to wreak havoc.

If an ally is dying, or approaching death then it can be a good idea to heal them- IF healing them means they won't get attacked and undo your effort. Otherwise you could be spending your turns doing useful stuff and putting off healing until later. (after combat)

The Life Oracle is great because they get all these abilities to cast healing abilities as swift/free actions that don't require them to stop doing what they're already doing. They basically get to stave off the reduction of HP and still use their actions each turn to be an oracle. This is amazing. If you run around healing people up as they're hit then you're really wasting the class. Yes, you can do that, but you could also be doing a number of other useful things.

Andoran

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
The Life Oracle is great because they get all these abilities to cast healing abilities as swift/free actions that don't require them to stop doing what they're already doing. They basically get to stave off the reduction of HP and still use their actions each turn to be an oracle. This is amazing. If you run around healing people up as they're hit then you're really wasting the class. Yes, you can do that, but you could also be doing a number of other useful things.

I'd like to say I agree with this entirely, and actually, it brings up something you should probably note under Channel Energy: The Quick Channel Feat. A Life Oracle with Quick Channel and Combat Healer can both Channel, cast a healing spell, and act in some moreoffensive manner all in the same round. This is a unique enough capability that the Feat is probably worth noting somewhere under Life Oracle.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
The Life Oracle is great because they get all these abilities to cast healing abilities as swift/free actions that don't require them to stop doing what they're already doing. They basically get to stave off the reduction of HP and still use their actions each turn to be an oracle. This is amazing. If you run around healing people up as they're hit then you're really wasting the class. Yes, you can do that, but you could also be doing a number of other useful things.
I'd like to say I agree with this entirely, and actually, it brings up something you should probably note under Channel Energy: The Quick Channel Feat. A Life Oracle with Quick Channel and Combat Healer can both Channel, cast a healing spell, and act in some moreoffensive manner all in the same round. This is a unique enough capability that the Feat is probably worth noting somewhere under Life Oracle.

I've been researching each mystery for special considerations and I recently got to the life oracle. My first thought was "awesome, move action channels are fantastic!" And they are.

However, as written, an oracle can't qualify for the feats. Each of the feats requires Channel Energy, while the oracle gets Channel. I think that most DMs would agree that the two are compatible, but for PFS it's not an option due to being strictly against the rules. It's something I'm going to add once I get to that part of the guide.

I can't tell you how frustrated I was when I realized this.


nategar05 wrote:
As far as multiclassing, anyone have any ideas other than Rage Prophet? I can't think it'd be a good dipping class because of the curse.

I'm planning a PFS character that will be an Aasimar Oracle (life mystery) / Divine Scion. I haven't yet decided whether to do 3 or 4 levels of DS. I'm waiting on the ARG and Blood of Angels to be released to see what options they allow before I actually create the character for real, but it's looking pretty good as a healer.

Divine Scion could also be good for a blaster Oracle due to the Divine Wrath ability at 4th level (9th character level at the earliest).


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

However, as written, an oracle can't qualify for the feats. Each of the feats requires Channel Energy, while the oracle gets Channel. I think that most DMs would agree that the two are compatible, but for PFS it's not an option due to being strictly against the rules. It's something I'm going to add once I get to that part of the guide.

I can't tell you how frustrated I was when I realized this.

An Oracle can qualify. See this thread where SKR clarifies that even though the name isn't exactly the same, it really is the same thing. "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." Now to go buy some duck-bane arrows.

Edit:
If you come across a GM that disagrees I would point them to the Extra Channel feat in the CRB. That specifically mentions a Paladin taking the feat, and the Paladin channel feature isn't called "Channel Energy" either.


Mike Lindner wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

However, as written, an oracle can't qualify for the feats. Each of the feats requires Channel Energy, while the oracle gets Channel. I think that most DMs would agree that the two are compatible, but for PFS it's not an option due to being strictly against the rules. It's something I'm going to add once I get to that part of the guide.

I can't tell you how frustrated I was when I realized this.

An Oracle can qualify. See this thread where SKR clarifies that even though the name isn't exactly the same, it really is the same thing. "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." Now to go buy some duck-bane arrows.

Edit:
If you come across a GM that disagrees I would point them to the Extra Channel feat in the CRB. That specifically mentions a Paladin taking the feat, and the Paladin channel feature isn't called "Channel Energy" either.

Good catch! Luckily I haven't written that section yet. :D


Thanks for the credit in the Special Thanks section. I'll finish reading your new stuff and may have an opinion or two on it.

I do have a new thought on the Deaf curse though. Yes the autofail on audible Perception still sucks, but there are barely any bad side effects socially. The reason for this:

Pathfinder Society FAQ

Quote:
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, any PC may learn to read lips with a rank in Linguistics as if they had learned a new language. When reading the lips of a speaking creature within 10 feet in normal lighting conditions, the reader need not make any skill checks. In situations of dim lighting, extreme distances, or to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the reader must make Perception checks (DC determined by the GM based on the situation). A lip reader may only understand spoken words in a language it knows.

So 1 rank in Linguistics and the social penalty is almost entirely mitigated. In an amusing way, it makes low-light vision or darkvision more important though. If it's good for PFS it should be good for most reasonable GMs in home games. I think this should push Deaf to Green, since free Silent Spell and immunity to Silence alone are awesome, let alone extra senses later on and reduced penalties for being Deaf.


nategar05 wrote:

Thanks for the credit in the Special Thanks section. I'll finish reading your new stuff and may have an opinion or two on it.

I do have a new thought on the Deaf curse though. Yes the autofail on audible Perception still sucks, but there are barely any bad side effects socially. The reason for this:

Pathfinder Society FAQ

Quote:
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, any PC may learn to read lips with a rank in Linguistics as if they had learned a new language. When reading the lips of a speaking creature within 10 feet in normal lighting conditions, the reader need not make any skill checks. In situations of dim lighting, extreme distances, or to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the reader must make Perception checks (DC determined by the GM based on the situation). A lip reader may only understand spoken words in a language it knows.
So 1 rank in Linguistics and the social penalty is almost entirely mitigated. In an amusing way, it makes low-light vision or darkvision more important though. If it's good for PFS it should be good for most reasonable GMs in home games. I think this should push Deaf to Green, since free Silent Spell and immunity to Silence alone are awesome, let alone extra senses later on and reduced penalties for being Deaf.

That's a really good find, Nategar. I agree- it's enough to bump it up to green.


1. You're listing the Cure and Inflict spells as if you'd need to pick them separately to know them. At least that's the impression I get. It looks like it could use better wording to make clear that you get all of one line or the other known for free.

===

2. For Continual Flame, you say not to take it because your Summoned Lantern Archon can cast it for you. Actually, he can't:

Summon Monster

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

I still don't think it's worth knowing. Just pay a spellcaster to cast it for you. It's better than buying an Everburning Torch at retail, since you can have it cast into anything you want. My preference is a pebble that I keep in a poison pill ring for easy access and hiding of the light when necessary.

===

3. I think I saw in one of the Cleric guides that someone said they used Water Walk as an underwater Reverse Gravity. Kinda funny and may be useful, especially in an aquatic campaign.

===

4. For Plane Shift, how about Plane Shift as an attack? Send them to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. ;-)

===

5. For Dust Form, it's spelled "per se". I don't generally nitpick spelling but I noticed it and thought you may not want future readers to notice it. :-)

===

6. For Regenerate, you say there's no rules on severing limbs. How about called shots? Granted, those are optional rules and not used in PFS. Still I think it merits a mention, though it's hardly worth changing the rating over.


nategar05 wrote:
1. You're listing the Cure and Inflict spells as if you'd need to pick them separately to know them. At least that's the impression I get. It looks like it could use better wording to make clear that you get all of one line or the other known for free.

I touched on this specifically in the section Understanding Magic. Do you think it bears repeating in each entry? (I'm being sincere here, so don't read that as sarcasm/snark) I could add "oracle freebie" to each spell.

nategar05 wrote:

2. For Continual Flame, you say not to take it because your Summoned Lantern Archon can cast it for you. Actually, he can't:

Summon Monster

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
I still don't think it's worth knowing. Just pay a spellcaster to cast it for you. It's better than buying an Everburning Torch at retail, since you can have it cast into anything you want. My preference is a pebble that I keep in a poison pill ring for easy access and hiding of the light when necessary.

Damn, I felt really clever for suggesting that. Good catch.

nategar05 wrote:
3. I think I saw in one of the Cleric guides that someone said they used Water Walk as an underwater Reverse Gravity. Kinda funny and may be useful, especially in an aquatic campaign.

Not really worth changing the rating, but definitely merits a mention.

nategar05 wrote:
4. For Plane Shift, how about Plane Shift as an attack? Send them to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. ;-)

I feel like a complete idiot for not remembering that, haha. I love OotS! I also seemed to remember that Plane Shift was willing targets only... but that's only the case if you try to send more than one. I'll make an adjustment to the spell. I think it's probably worth a yellow, don't you?

nategar05 wrote:
5. For Dust Form, it's spelled "per se". I don't generally nitpick spelling but I noticed it and thought you may not want future readers to notice it. :-)

Yeah, I do that a lot. Spell check doesn't stop me on things like that. Thanks!

nategar05 wrote:
6. For Regenerate, you say there's no rules on severing limbs. How about called shots? Granted, those are optional rules and not used in PFS. Still I think it merits a mention, though it's hardly worth changing the rating over.

You're right. I'll adjust my wording to include this.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
nategar05 wrote:
1. You're listing the Cure and Inflict spells as if you'd need to pick them separately to know them. At least that's the impression I get. It looks like it could use better wording to make clear that you get all of one line or the other known for free.

I touched on this specifically in the section Understanding Magic. Do you think it bears repeating in each entry? (I'm being sincere here, so don't read that as sarcasm/snark) I could add "oracle freebie" to each spell.

I think another reference at the beginning of the spell section and a different font color/style should suffice. If you change the font somehow people will know something is up with them so they'll look around to see what it is. You know, if they skipped straight to the spells without reading the intro.

Quote:
nategar05 wrote:

2. For Continual Flame, you say not to take it because your Summoned Lantern Archon can cast it for you. Actually, he can't:

Summon Monster

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
I still don't think it's worth knowing. Just pay a spellcaster to cast it for you. It's better than buying an Everburning Torch at retail, since you can have it cast into anything you want. My preference is a pebble that I keep in a poison pill ring for easy access and hiding of the light when necessary.
Damn, I felt really clever for suggesting that. Good catch.

Yeah, I love Conjurors and I was very disappointed when I found that too.

Quote:
nategar05 wrote:
4. For Plane Shift, how about Plane Shift as an attack? Send them to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. ;-)
I feel like a complete idiot for not remembering that, haha. I love OotS! I also seemed to remember that Plane Shift was willing targets only... but that's only the case if you try to send more than one. I'll make an adjustment to the spell. I think it's probably worth a yellow, don't you?...

Well, is there a better Save or Die by 5th level? That targets Will? If you pick the target wisely in the right campaign it may as well be a Save or Die. I think it's worth Yellow or Green.


nategar05 wrote:
I think another reference at the beginning of the spell section and a different font color/style should suffice. If you change the font somehow people will know something is up with them so they'll look around to see what it is. You know, if they skipped straight to the spells without reading the intro.

Solid point. I changed all the spells to rating (-) and colored them grey. My original text remains, though.

nategar05 wrote:
Well, is there a better Save or Die by 5th level? That targets Will? If you pick the target wisely in the right campaign it may as well be a Save or Die. I think it's worth Yellow or Green.

Haha, actually after I responded to you I went to change it and looked over the list. It's a pretty solid spell for the level, so I rated it green when I updated it. As far as save-or-die spells go, it's fantastic in its application. My only real gripe with the spell is that you can't really ensure that the enemy died and you lose any loot it might have had on it.

And I really like loot.


Loot is good, I agree. Perhaps there are ways around that though.


Something you overlooked with Animate Objects in the midst of all the other great things about it: you can change the spell's targets as a move action. Unlike regular summons, if the animated object you were using is starting to get too low on HP, you can swap the spell over to some other, undamaged inanimate object in the vicinity and bring it into the fray. You even still have your standard action to use.

I'm not sure if it's something that needs to go in the guide; I was skimming while tinkering with a character idea and that stood out to me.


Benly wrote:

Something you overlooked with Animate Objects in the midst of all the other great things about it: you can change the spell's targets as a move action. Unlike regular summons, if the animated object you were using is starting to get too low on HP, you can swap the spell over to some other, undamaged inanimate object in the vicinity and bring it into the fray. You even still have your standard action to use.

I'm not sure if it's something that needs to go in the guide; I was skimming while tinkering with a character idea and that stood out to me.

How did I miss that? I love this spell, and I missed that. ::shame::


1) Animate Objects does seem like a great spell the more I look at it.
You can always make a wall of stone and animate the stone.

At lvl 12 (when you get the spell) you can start of with a huge object for damage and 2 medium for flanking.
Most monsters will ignore summoned creatures/animated objects - so I would focus on extra attacks.
Assumming you animate them into combat you can take slow and britle flaws. Thats 6 construction points. -1 since you made it of stone.
That will give you 6 slam attacks (1d8+10) - with flanking +17 to hit.
Now the average AC for lvl 12 is 26.7.
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agyi5tgUTatCdHFjS05Kb18xVGd2b TZhak5YaGQtMFE#gid=3)
So you end up with ~43,5 dam/round, possible flanking - and if an enemy waste an action on hitting one of the objects it's just icing on the cake.

AND the spell scales with level! AND you can make ranged/flying attacks with it. Damn if heal wasn't on the list this would be my #1 lvl 6 spell known.

- before I looked at your rating I hadn't really considered the spell at all!

2)
I check google docs from time to time - and it always nice to see when something has changed - maybe there some new insight to be had :-)
But it's a long document - could you update this tread once you make changes to the guide (not spelling and format, but new sections, comments and so on)?


Bigtuna wrote:

1) Animate Objects does seem like a great spell the more I look at it.

You can always make a wall of stone and animate the stone.

At lvl 12 (when you get the spell) you can start of with a huge object for damage and 2 medium for flanking.
Most monsters will ignore summoned creatures/animated objects - so I would focus on extra attacks.
Assumming you animate them into combat you can take slow and britle flaws. Thats 6 construction points. -1 since you made it of stone.
That will give you 6 slam attacks (1d8+10) - with flanking +17 to hit.
Now the average AC for lvl 12 is 26.7.
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agyi5tgUTatCdHFjS05Kb18xVGd2b TZhak5YaGQtMFE#gid=3)
So you end up with ~43,5 dam/round, possible flanking - and if an enemy waste an action on hitting one of the objects it's just icing on the cake.

AND the spell scales with level! AND you can make ranged/flying attacks with it. Damn if heal wasn't on the list this would be my #1 lvl 6 spell known.

- before I looked at your rating I hadn't really considered the spell at all!

I know, right? The spell is awesome. I personally love animating every stone/log/tumbleweed in sight and having them gang up on a spellcaster.

Bigtuna wrote:

2)

I check google docs from time to time - and it always nice to see when something has changed - maybe there some new insight to be had :-)
But it's a long document - could you update this tread once you make changes to the guide (not spelling and format, but new sections, comments and so on)?

I had actually considered doing this, but was afraid it might be too obnoxious or "self-promote-y."

But yeah, I'll totally update the thread when there's a significant update to the guide. It looks like the next update will be when I finish the Special Considerations for each mystery. I'm still trying to flesh those out, since some of them seem to be coming down to "whelp, this is just a regular oracle."


But there are some limitations with animate object. (come to think about it)
a) matriales - can you just animate the walls or do you have to have a fall tree, funiture or other stuff?
You could make a wall of stone and go to town - but then you have just used 2 turns and a 4 and 6 lvl spellslot (in some cases that might be a great way to start combat - but not all.
Do anyone have game experience with using the spell - do you ask the GM - is there any thing I could animate? Or do you just assume it's there?
And how about amount - is there only enough for a medium construct or can I make a huge construct?

b) Space - the bigger the construct the better to hit/dam - if you want the spell to deal damage you need a battlefield that can has space for a huge creature. Some dungeons are only for medium and large creatures...

c) How often would you use it? Well as said before - heal is the first known spell at lvl 6 - yes you want it - damage to undeads, incombat healing that is worth and action, removing of all those status effects...
Then you have spells like heroes feast - which will just become part of your morning ritual (some people get up later than others)- just like any other hour/lvl buff. - Would you use animate objects EVERY day?
- I'm guessing not.

So not the first lvl 6 spell known - or the second - but i would get on my list...

Word Of recall
- it's a good spell to have. But blue?
a) It's planning to fail (if used to retreat) - don't like that - I would rather make better plan and succed.
b) It's a spell you'll use once pr day MAX. - that's got to count against it.
c) It's teleport without error - but if you have an arcane caster why not let him be the party taxi? - Share the burden - perhaps. If he goes down who will save the day (well you did take heal right? - and breath of life just in case? - so save his bacon - and then let HIM teleport the party home.
d) why not get a scroll? It should be able to transport the whole party (you +3 others) and if who ever wrote the scroll made the "santuary" somewhere non hostile - or even a friendly church - that should be good enough - and if you happen to go down some other party member with UMD might save the day.


Bigtuna wrote:

But there are some limitations with animate object. (come to think about it)

a) matriales - can you just animate the walls or do you have to have a fall tree, funiture or other stuff?
You could make a wall of stone and go to town - but then you have just used 2 turns and a 4 and 6 lvl spellslot (in some cases that might be a great way to start combat - but not all.
Do anyone have game experience with using the spell - do you ask the GM - is there any thing I could animate? Or do you just assume it's there?
And how about amount - is there only enough for a medium construct or can I make a huge construct?

Well, if you're doing battlefield control well there's a good chance you already cast wall of stone. Shape stone can carve off a good enough chunk to make an animated object out of, so that's something. Unless your DM is a big jerk and says that there's nothing around that you can animate then you can always rely on animating corpses, a spare cloak/horse blanket, etc.

Bigtuna wrote:
b) Space - the bigger the construct the better to hit/dam - if you want the spell to deal damage you need a battlefield that can has space for a huge creature. Some dungeons are only for medium and large creatures...

Space is an inherent issue with any of the summoning, not just Animate Objects. Luckily you've almost always got room for a lot of medium/small creatures if you're in an awkward place. Swarm tactics work very well against most creatures.

Bigtuna wrote:

c) How often would you use it? Well as said before - heal is the first known spell at lvl 6 - yes you want it - damage to undeads, incombat healing that is worth and action, removing of all those status effects...

Then you have spells like heroes feast - which will just become part of your morning ritual (some people get up later than others)- just like any other hour/lvl buff. - Would you use animate objects EVERY day?
- I'm guessing not.

So not the first lvl 6 spell known - or the second - but i would get on my list...

Personally, yes, I'd use it every day. In fact, on characters that had it I really did use it every day. I don't like heroes feast on a spontaneous caster but arguments here encouraged me to push it up to green. It's a hell of a lot more flexible than any of the summon spells, especially when considering how it plays with metamagic. Being a standard action spell means that you can apply metamagic feats (extend, silent/still) and still keep it within a single round's casting time.

Bigtuna wrote:

Word Of recall

- it's a good spell to have. But blue?
a) It's planning to fail (if used to retreat) - don't like that - I would rather make better plan and succeed.

It's transportation magic, which is incredibly useful. I don't think you should ever plan for a retreat (unless it's a snatch & dash), but sometimes you bite off more than you can chew. The difference between Word of Recall and a resurrection spell is about 7k.

Bigtuna wrote:
b) It's a spell you'll use once pr day MAX. - that's got to count against it.

Yeah, it does count against it but I don't feel like it's enough to push it down to green.

Bigtuna wrote:
c) It's teleport without error - but if you have an arcane caster why not let him be the party taxi? - Share the burden - perhaps. If he goes down who will save the day (well you did take heal right? - and breath of life just in case? - so save his bacon - and then let HIM teleport the party home.

I won't argue that Teleport is a stronger spell, because it really is. It's got a small chance of error, but it's two-way. The problem here is that only a Wizard/Witch is a good candidate for taking this spell. I mean, good luck convincing a Sorcerer to take Teleport when Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Shadow Evocation, Suffocation, Baleful Polymorph, Passwall, or Telekinesis could be filling that spot- and that goes double for the Magus and Summoner who've got even fewer spells known.

In certain parties I hope that the player will be able to identify redundancy and adjust. I mean, Wizards & Clerics are already the swiss army knives of magic.

Bigtuna wrote:
d) why not get a scroll? It should be able to transport the whole party (you +3 others) and if who ever wrote the scroll made the "santuary" somewhere non hostile - or even a friendly church - that should be good enough - and if you happen to go down some other party member with UMD might save the day.

This is a good idea, but sorta goes right out the window when you include familiars, animal companions, bonded mounts, and NPC cohorts. And that's just assuming the usual group of four. There's a really good chance that at least one person in the standard group has some sort of class feature that's going to take up space in the name of a teleport.


Animated object.
"alot of medium/small creatures"? That would take the damage part out of the spell. Then I could just stick with wall of stone.
a 6 lvl spell that only provides flanking and perhaps stands between you and a target for a few rounds (okay i guess - if I'm a controller and my local melee type has a reach weapon, or if I have a reach weapon and a warrior type - but not for a 6 lvl spell!).

So game experience how often have you used to spell to animate huge (or bigger) compared to just animated small or medium object?

Word of Reall
Wait - the sorcerer shouldn't/wouldn't take teleport - but the oracle shoul take word of recall?
Unless the oracle is a human and the sorc isn't I don't see why the party should have e one-way-ticket home and not a return-ticket.

Sure for some parties a scroll can't do the trick - but if it can - don't pick it as a known spell.


Bigtuna wrote:

Animated object.

"alot of medium/small creatures"? That would take the damage part out of the spell. Then I could just stick with wall of stone.
a 6 lvl spell that only provides flanking and perhaps stands between you and a target for a few rounds (okay i guess - if I'm a controller and my local melee type has a reach weapon, or if I have a reach weapon and a warrior type - but not for a 6 lvl spell!).

So game experience how often have you used to spell to animate huge (or bigger) compared to just animated small or medium object?

I never struggled to use it. I was animating huge+ objects pretty frequently- trees, boulders, bridges, statues, carpets, etc. I'd say about every other time I cast it (which was usually 2+ times per day) I could manage to get something really big with it. I suppose you really need your DM to work with you on this one, but that's true of mostly anything.

Bigtuna wrote:

Word of Reall

Wait - the sorcerer shouldn't/wouldn't take teleport - but the oracle shoul take word of recall?
Unless the oracle is a human and the sorc isn't I don't see why the party should have e one-way-ticket home and not a return-ticket.

Sure for some parties a scroll can't do the trick - but if it can - don't pick it as a known spell.

Sure, it's something that needs to be worked out with each unique party dynamic. Your opinions are valid, to be sure. I'll modify my rating text to include that, but I don't think it changes the overall value of the spell.


Hey Sean, would love if you would take a look at my oracle build and share your thoughts.


Hmm I considered the crane style for a warrior orcale.

You could thf with a longsword or something - end of you turn free your off hand. not sure if you could use a buckler.

You fight defensively - getting quite an AC bonus and -1 attack pr round.
Is cost you quite a few feat. Worth it?

And thoughts/experience?


with the feat Osyluth Guile a warrior oracle would quite hard to hit...

You end up with -1 to hit,
AC: +1 dodge +2 Fighting defensively +1 acrobatics +1 crane style + cha (against one) = +5 AC (+cha against one).

It would use up 6 feat (read: your feats) :
human? (unarmed strike) lvl 1 (dodge)
lvl 3 (PA?)
lvl 5 (crane style)
lvl 7 (Crane wing)
lvl 9 (Osyluth guile)
lvl 11(Crane Riposte)

The only feat I REALLY would miss is extra revalation - and perhaps furious focus.

edit: I could start combat buffing - and once in combat - well -1 to hit shouldn't matter much... The combo would really pay off from lvl 7 - one less attack pr round - life saver...


Bigtuna, that build would likely be better with a class that gives bonus feats and/or is much more focused on combat than spellcasting. That's A LOT of feats for one thing. I'd suggest Fighter or Monk.


Hey all,

Sorry I have not read the last few pages but I did have a question.

Is Part 3 finished?

Thanks for the help and GREAT guide.


Thefurmonger wrote:

Hey all,

Sorry I have not read the last few pages but I did have a question.

Is Part 3 finished?

Thanks for the help and GREAT guide.

No, sorry, part 3 is not done. I finished it and then decided I hated it, so I started over. I'm a fickle, fickle man.

Currently real life is kicking my butt. Moving apartments, just finished up finals, recently lost my job so I'm spending a lot of time hunting for a new one, and then accidentally got into a relationship (lol).

I'm really sorry for the huge delays in this project. My working goal has been to produce something worthwhile, so I'm hesitant to release any of the crap my brain spews out at 4am.

The guide is roughly 98% complete if you ignore part 3, and that's not going to be nearly as long as the first two parts. It just got to the point where I couldn't edit the google doc directly because it was too large. I've also found that I'm unnecessarily wordy when it comes to expressing simple ideas. Most of the guide is useless fluff. :D

Cheliax

I read your guide a while back and I must say I'm thankful for the updates that you've placed into it.

VERY AWESOME!

I feel much more confident about rolling my boon PFS character up now that I can reference your tome.


"Useless fluff" is what teaches the people who need to read your guide the game system. That and actual playing of course.

Besides, it's also entertaining for Pathfinder veterans. :-)


"Besides, it's also entertaining for Pathfinder veterans. :-)"
+1

Cheliax

I've got something to add about the Clouded Vision Curse.

If you're willing to spend a feat once you get level 5 and get Darkvision 60 then "Deepvision" is an option. it increases your range to 120 ft which is generally the extremes that you see range. On the handful of spells with range that outdoes 120ft are enough of a minority that Clouded Vision become much better.

Otherwise Great Guide, just thought I'd put that little feat up there.


XenoZiden wrote:

I've got something to add about the Clouded Vision Curse.

If you're willing to spend a feat once you get level 5 and get Darkvision 60 then "Deepvision" is an option. it increases your range to 120 ft which is generally the extremes that you see range. On the handful of spells with range that outdoes 120ft are enough of a minority that Clouded Vision become much better.

Otherwise Great Guide, just thought I'd put that little feat up there.

This is a good idea, and I had considered it myself. In fact, I think someone earlier in this thread did as well. Unfortunately it does't work. A character with clouded vision doesn't have Darkvision 60- she has the ability to see 30/60 feet, but can see as with darkvision.

Check out the wording:

D20pfsrd wrote:

You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.

At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.

Emphasis mine. Even if you can legally take the feat you will not be able to see beyond 30/60 feet, as it is explicitly stated as such.

Cheliax

Are you still working on Part III? I can't wait to read it, and I'm sure others would enjoy it also.


Veldebrand wrote:

Are you still working on Part III? I can't wait to read it, and I'm sure others would enjoy it also.

Yes, very much still in the works. I've just hit a lot of issues with real life and I'm trying to sort them out. I do make a point to visit the forums in case anyone has any questions, but life has been... hectic to say the very least.

Cheliax

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
XenoZiden wrote:

I've got something to add about the Clouded Vision Curse.

If you're willing to spend a feat once you get level 5 and get Darkvision 60 then "Deepvision" is an option. it increases your range to 120 ft which is generally the extremes that you see range. On the handful of spells with range that outdoes 120ft are enough of a minority that Clouded Vision become much better.

Otherwise Great Guide, just thought I'd put that little feat up there.

This is a good idea, and I had considered it myself. In fact, I think someone earlier in this thread did as well. Unfortunately it does't work. A character with clouded vision doesn't have Darkvision 60- she has the ability to see 30/60 feet, but can see as with darkvision.

Check out the wording:

D20pfsrd wrote:

You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.

At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.

Emphasis mine. Even if you can legally take the feat you will not be able to see beyond 30/60 feet, as it is explicitly stated as such.

I've actually seen DMs allow this. I think it's worth noting as something to ask your DM about.


On the subject of bypassing clouded vision, it's a real shame there is no way to increase your tremorsense range if you picked it up through Deep Earth EH.


What are people's opinions of the following new favored class ability that elves, half elves, assamar, and some others have-

Oracle: Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

For some revelations i think this could be amazing. The mount ability from nature and the many forms ability from dark tapestry in particular.

Cheliax

rayous brightblade wrote:

What are people's opinions of the following new favored class ability that elves, half elves, assamar, and some others have-

Oracle: Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

For some revelations i think this could be amazing. The mount ability from nature and the many forms ability from dark tapestry in particular.

Battle Oracle and Maneuver Mastery. by level 12 you could have something like:

BAB 18, 2 imp trip, 2 greater trip, 3 weapon enchantment, 6 dueling enchantment, +X fury's fall, 8 Str, 1 Shaoti race trait...

looking at a +40ish to a combat maneuver.

Spell Scar, Eldrich Resistence: +20 to Acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic at level 12.

Silver Crusade

I'm thinking of making a melee oracle for PFS. Until yesterday, I really didn't know anything about the class, so I've been doing some reading, including this guide, though this thread is too long for me to bother with. :p

Despite having played a cleric, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the divine spell list. With my cleric, I constantly change out spells to try new stuff and focus on the specific situation at hand. With an oracle, you have to pick your spells up front and stick with them. Has anyone done a guide or something for oracle spells, based on how useful they are to different oracle roles?

As I said, I'm thinking melee combatant, so knowing which spells other people recommend for that role would be helpful.

Also, what's the rule on deities and alignments for oracles? I know clerics have to pick a deity to worship within one alignment step of the PC, but what about oracles? Since their god chooses them, instead of the other way around, is it possible to be nowhere near the alignment of the god who "cursed" you?


Hi, (and sorry for my poor English..)

How does an oracle qualify for the Improved Familiar feat ?
(There's a prerequisites with Arcane Spellcaster Level)

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