Can't help you, except by saying that i've had similar problems with dice for all my gamer life.
There are too many examples i could quote, but is enough to say that when i need a low roll i get a high one and if i need a high one i get a low result.
Died lots of times in lots of systems because of this no matter the class/race/stats
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I would ask what on earth your 13th level wizard is doing with a 38 Intelligence.
This is the first thing I ask because in my experience, games that veer so wildly from the norm are incredibly difficult to balance at all, much less maintain that balance. Even an experienced GM is taking on a fantastic burden running a game with such out of hand stats.
Might explain some things.
Prime example I cast an 8th level spell. he saves. Other player casts a 3rd level spell of the same kind and he fails... thats an 8 point swing....
and this sort of stuff is common....
What would you do? The DM knows your frustrated with the saves.
He says its dice rolls...
The nature of a dice game is that there will be wild fluctuations in results. While numbers might 'average out' over time, you have exactly the same chances of rolling a 1 as rolling a 20 every time you pick up the dice.
We have a guy in our group that is the constant butt of jokes. He seems to fail most rolls most of the time. Mind you, as he doesnt really care what the outcome is and as we all have fun it doesnt really matter to him.
You seem to be implying that the GM is being less than honest with the results of rolls. If you are accurate in that your spells are resisted every time and another character succeeds every time then you might be right.
I have played in groups with player/GM bias. There was one group where the GM's girlfriend played the frontline fighter, but got upset when her character got attacked and injured. As a result, the fighter was rarely targeted by monsters, and never got ambushed, set traps off or recieved a single cursed item.
I've also played in groups where players felt unfairly targeted, but in actual fact it was more player perception than anything.
My suggestion would be to talk seperately to the other players to see if they share your opinion. If so, it might be worth having a chat to the GM about the issue. A mature gaming group should be able to discuss personal strengths and weaknesses without it becoming a personal attack.
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Are all the dice rolled in the open, or hidden?
If it's there in plain view, that they just roll better saves vs you than him, there's not much you can do about it.
That's not to say there aren't other possibilities, like the GM not understanding how to calculate save bonuses, or deliberately including enemies who are specifically vulnerable to the sorcerors tactics, but we don't have enough info work with.
This is the question we need to know the answer to before coming to any conclusion.
Agreed. With a 38 and 8th level spells, we're talking upwards of DC22.
Looking at CR15 creatures, I see:
Adult Gold Dragon +17/+11/+18 (20% / 50% / 15% fail)
Neothelid +15/+4/+16 (30% / 90% / 25% fail)
Phoenix +17/+19/+14 (20% / 10% / 35% fail)
Ancient White Dragon +19/+14/+16 (10% / 35% / 25% fail)
We're talking about creatures that each have a save that fails one in three times if you're clever enough to target it.
Of course, "always" is likely hyperbole. It also might be time for the wizard to keep track of how often the bad guys actually save. Also also the sorcerer may have taken feats to jack up his DCs for specific schools and/or spells.
This is the question we need to know the answer to before coming to any conclusion.Agreed. With a 38 and 8th level spells, we're talking upwards of DC32.
Looking at CR15 creatures, I see:
Adult Gold Dragon +17/+11/+18 (70% / 95% / 65% fail)
Neothelid +15/+4/+16 (80% / 95% / 75% fail)
Phoenix +17/+19/+14 (70% / 60% / 85% fail)
Ancient White Dragon +19/+14/+16 (60% / 85% / 75% fail)We're talking about creatures that each have a save that fails one in three times if you're clever enough to target it.
Of course, "always" is likely hyperbole. It also might be time for the wizard to keep track of how often the bad guys actually save. Also also the sorcerer may have taken feats to jack up his DCs for specific schools and/or spells.
Just fixing some math and relevant %'s. Remember DCs are 10+Spell Level + Ability Modifier.
But yeah, we need to know if rolls are hidden or open.
If you feel it's a problem with your DM rather than purely randomness of rolls, then I'd suggest going primarily for spells that don't allow saves to resist their effects.
Just fixing some math and relevant %'s. Remember DCs are 10+Spell Level + Ability Modifier.
But yeah, we need to know if rolls are hidden or open.
Oh wow, was I moronic or what? Teach me to post anything with numbers in it after a few hours of weeding the lawn.
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IF you were in a game for 8 months playing a wizard from level 13-16, with a THIRTY EIGHT ( 38 ) intelligence, and in that time ONLY 1 creature ever failed a saving throw and it was from an air elemental you summoned(which means its not even your saves they failed against). But in the party there was a Sorc. with a 32 THIRTY TWO CHR, and nothing ever saved against him. And the other party members who are not Familiar with caster types at all just see's the effects and comment constantly about how your Char is "ineffective." and the other guys "caster is so much better." ... I've played beta pathfinder, 3.0 3.5 etc etc. So I mean I even go for the poor saves and they save...for 8 months...
Prime example I cast an 8th level spell. he saves. Other player casts a 3rd level spell of the same kind and he fails... thats an 8 point swing....
and this sort of stuff is common....
What would you do? The DM knows your frustrated with the saves.
He says its dice rolls...
I mean 16th level. with a 38, I could probably make Solars my b#%+#, but I can't even kill a CR 15 monster myself????
First off...
Max starting Int is 20. Add 4 for bonuses at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th and you get 24. +6 item is going to take you to 30. The absolute highest inherent bonus is +5 so...
How did he get a 38 intelligence. Particularly at that level.
First off...
Max starting Int is 20. Add 4 for bonuses at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th and you get 24. +6 item is going to take you to 30. The absolute highest inherent bonus is +5 so...
How did he get a 38 intelligence. Particularly at that level.
20 is the max starting score with the normal ability score generation and core races. The OP never said he was using one of the normal races, and many groups use their own method of generating ability scores.
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20 is the max starting score with the normal ability score generation and core races. The OP never said he was using one of the normal races, and many groups use their own method of generating ability scores.First off...
Max starting Int is 20. Add 4 for bonuses at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th and you get 24. +6 item is going to take you to 30. The absolute highest inherent bonus is +5 so...
How did he get a 38 intelligence. Particularly at that level.
And when you do that, these types of problems aren't surprising.
And when you do that, these types of problems aren't surprising.
I would have to agree with you, if the OP was complaining that everything was failing against his save DCs. But his problem is that nothing is failing against one of his saves - which is even worse considering the high level of the characters intelligence and save DCs. Even with the save DCs boosted higher than a normal character could do, it still isn't enough. All the monsters are still succeeding on their saves.
But the only problem is that the OP is just unlucky. The save DCs are obviously high enough (since monsters are failing their saves against the lower DCs from the sorcerer), so its just one of those random things that happen with dice. Or the player of the sorcerer is cheating.
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And when you do that, these types of problems aren't surprising.I would have to agree with you, if the OP was complaining that everything was failing against his save DCs. But his problem is that nothing is failing against one of his saves - which is even worse considering the high level of the characters intelligence and save DCs. Even with the save DCs boosted higher than a normal character could do, it still isn't enough. All the monsters are still succeeding on their saves.
But the only problem is that the OP is just unlucky. The save DCs are obviously high enough (since monsters are failing their saves against the lower DCs from the sorcerer), so its just one of those random things that happen with dice. Or the player of the sorcerer is cheating.
However the likely issue is that in order to challenge the group the DM must play with above CR monsters, meaning his Sorcerer is "underpowered" relative to the game because they aren't following the rules.
It is like having the finest sword ever made when you storm the beaches of Normandy.
They aren't playing by the same rules, so all bets are off.
However the likely issue is that in order to challenge the group the DM must play with above CR monsters, meaning his Sorcerer is "underpowered" relative to the game because they aren't following the rules.
Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding the OP. The OP is NOT the sorcerer. The OP is complaining because the sorcerer, who is weaker then the OPs character, is actually more effective. The stronger character (the OPs wizard) is less effective then the weaker character (the sorcerer).
The issue is that the weaker sorcerer has no problem with the encounters, but the stronger OP does have problems.
Uhm... you need vodoo or some stuff. I speak with my dice. I handle them with care, I keep them in a little leather bag. My rolls are strong. With dice I'm superstitious. Only with dice. Because I played for 19 years, and I know that they have a strange intelligence. You know to.
Act accordingly.
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What would I do?
Maze
Prismatic Wall
Greater Planar Binding
Summon Monster VII
Reverse Gravity
Greater Polymorph
etc.
Sounds like you are too caught up in spells that are going to need saving throws.
I like to avoid those spells, as my luck tends to be similar to yours.
That's the best thing about Wizards, and one of the primary reasons they are my favorite class. You can make them luck-proof.
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However the likely issue is that in order to challenge the group the DM must play with above CR monsters, meaning his Sorcerer is "underpowered" relative to the game because they aren't following the rules.Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding the OP. The OP is NOT the sorcerer. The OP is complaining because the sorcerer, who is weaker then the OPs character, is actually more effective. The stronger character (the OPs wizard) is less effective then the weaker character (the sorcerer).
The issue is that the weaker sorcerer has no problem with the encounters, but the stronger OP does have problems.
If you allow players to "cheat" then you have to have monsters that also "cheat" in order to challenge them.
The sorcerers 32 is way above what most would have at 13-16th level as is, and the 38 is impossible.
In order for the DM to compensate they will need to have monsters with even higher saves, assuming it isn't just some fudging going on.
The OP isn't playing in a game based on the rules. He's playing in some munchkinland where the rules don't apply.
What would I do?
Maze
Prismatic Wall
Greater Planar Binding
Summon Monster VII
Reverse Gravity
Greater Polymorphetc.
Sounds like you are too caught up in spells that are going to need saving throws.
I like to avoid those spells, as my luck tends to be similar to yours.
That's the best thing about Wizards, and one of the primary reasons they are my favorite class. You can make them luck-proof.
+1
I have a level 12 wizard that avoid spells with saves where possible, but does break the odd fireball now and again. Though that is mainly to appease the Paladin of the group that seems to think that's what wizards should be doing, while my main contribution to combat is augmented summons that kick all kinds of ass.
Your DM is cheating, but you know that. Ask for all rolls to be made in the open or even better allow you to make the rolls.
Here is a link to the old 3.5 srd with rules for players making monster saves.
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAndSaveScores]
But do understand that with your increased power level the DM is probably adding 3-6 to all the numbers for the monsters.
I stole from 4th ED. Reversed the rolls. Made saves static. eg Fort= base class save + Ability Mod + Feats + Magic + MIsc +10. That's your target number. Now the spellcaster has a TO HIT modifier. eg DC ( TO HIT MOD) Spell casting stat mod + feat + spell level + Magic + MISC = TO HIT MOD vs targetted STATIC SAVE. Now the player rolls. It's their luck and not mine. I have wicked odd luck when I GM.
Player's so far understand the changes and appreciate it. I have a Witch and Cleric that enjoy the change up and have a weight that's abit lighter to carry when the group needs them to cast a much needed spell. END RESULT= no misguessing if the GM is cheating the players, player's feel empowered when they get awesome rolls, and I don't have to worry about these types of conversations in game ( or out for that matter).
Your DM's a cheating son of a motherless starfish.
He probably also smells of elderberries.
I oncep played a wizard gnome, maxed intelligence, threw the highest lvl illusion I had against 2 simple wolves, they both saved.
S~~& happens, but I hope you trust your GM not to fudge dice, or at least not like that!
Just use spells that don't have saves or that have effects even if the ennemy saves.
And all those people saying something about ineffective have to clue what "fun" is.
p.s. is it new that words like Shi* get replaced? is it really that offensive? I can understand the f word, but shi* ?
Assuming not a troll, I had a campaign once where I didn't hit anything in three months of play. Not once. It was an open-roll environment and as far as anyone at the table could tell there was nothing wrong with my build. Other people were able to hit things. It was just a horrible streak of dice luck.
It only lasted three months because I killed the character off out of sheer frustration.
At least as a wizard, you can resort to spells without saves, as many people have pointed out. It may limit some of your fun but it is a possible solution to your problem.
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***General Reply to Thread***
Some of the post people have made really seem to me bordering on almost rude. To use phrases like "Cheat" just because people are playing a game that goes a bit beyond the established norm seems a bit harsh. I mean how many people have house rules in their games? Are they "Cheating" because they have house rules?
And while yes taking a game outside of the normal balance equation can slant the numbers one way or the other it still seems that random chance would favor the Higher DC at some point.
When you come to a forum and ask why your game is broken, and you post a scenario that shows you are clearly not playing by the rules of the game, it is like going to the mechanic and asking why your car doesn't run after you put milk in the engine instead of gas.
If you house rule, and things don't work, it's because you messed them up with your house rule.
Hell, I don't know if the OP realizes that 38 int has to be a house rule or if they just don't know the rules.
So I went with the assumption they were "cheating" the rules rather than the equally likely scenario that they didn't read or know the rules.
Seemed nicer to me.
Factor these things into your perceptions as a player:
1) Part of a good DMs job is subterfuge. When the DM rolls the Dice to save vs a mind-effect ,or any effect,he may just be masking the fact that the creature is immune to mind effects. In other words, the result never mattered.
2) Randomness of Rolls.
3) Your stats may not be as high as you think they are... after all, you may have a cursed item on you that makes you fail more often (or one that explicitly just gives you horrible luck!)
I have been playing in the game with the original poster and have known the dm for over a decade now. One thing I know for certain after sitting next to him as a player and dm on more sessions I can count is that he has never once lied about a single roll. I watched him roll more twenties in a single night than I had in years in a combat heavy session. No joke I swear his dice know when he needs to roll well and comply. As for the the problem... I suggest being an adult and dealing with accepting the outcome of the dice or leave the group. As far as the scores go yes we are all off the charts with scores and play far from a core game but that isn't the issue here... And some have failed just not the typical expectations.
Something that should have happened man to man and face to face not on a public forum even one as great as this one.
Stas
I have been playing in the game with the original poster and have known the dm for over a decade now. One thing I know for certain after sitting next to him as a player and dm on more sessions I can count is that he has never once lied about a single roll. I watched him roll more twenties in a single night than I had in years in a combat heavy session. No joke I swear his dice know when he needs to roll well and comply. As for the the problem... I suggest being an adult and dealing with accepting the outcome of the dice or leave the group. As far as the scores go yes we are all off the charts with scores and play far from a core game but that isn't the issue here... And some have failed just not the typical expectations.
Something that should have happened man to man and face to face not on a public forum even one as great as this one.
Stas
Bad die maybe?
Also how many times against similar enemy numbers has the wizard failed and how many succeded? the same about the sorcerer, run an experiment, for 5 sessions record the tries and results of the wizards spells with saves and do the same with the sorcerer's, if you can note against what it failed, then see the statistics.Oh and if the original poster hasn't succeeded on a single spell with a save in a meaningful situation after 8 months of play (i am assuming 4 sessions per month) then well..... that seems WAYYYYYY impropable.
Leo1925
It isn't a bad die he uses tons of them. He has even used my dice and after a short period even my dice roll great for him. We often joke about it in our group as there are those who usually roll horribly. It is quite funny and frustrating at times but none the less purely honest great rolls. I have also been there when things have been bad but they are actually quite rare
Some of the problem is due to metagame assumptions of the power level of the foes and their capabilities.
It comes down to perception in my opinion as he has had enemies fail just not on the big stuff that he wants. In the end I think the game overall is fun, challenging and fair but it is only my opinion and also why I still show up.
What happens when you cast Fireball? Mind Fog followed by a Will save spell?
I apologize if I overlooked this in someone else's response, but...
...I never noticed the OP mention that he's targetting weak saves. He might simply be attacking the monster's best saves (having read on the interwebz that 'save or suck iz the bezt, dat's all you needz ta do!!!11!!') while the sorc is hitting lesser saves. Especially at higher levels, there's often a dramatic difference between your best and worst saves.
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IM still reading through this.
38 INT.
18 + 2 for drow +4 for lich (allowed to move 2 from cha bonus to int.) 3 from stat increases 1 inherant +6 headband. Takes me to 34 +2 for AGE. +2 for spell casting prodigy.
38 INT.
Spellcasting prodigy doesn't actually raise your intelligence, it just gives you more bonus spells.
Drow are +2 to Dex and Charisma.
Lich do add a +2 to Intelligence, but they also increase your effective level by +2 so he should be two levels lower than everyone else as a caster.
But nice hax on his part to avoid the -4 con penalty (drow and age) by playing a lich.
EDIT: You are probably using Drow Noble...which would add another +1 to level adjustment since it isn't a PC class.
So he now should have 3 level adjusted above his class level.
Your DM is crazy to let him move the +2 charisma over to Intelligence, the game is borked and he is a munchkin.