they are a good source of conflict in real world (Hadrian, Great Wall, Berlin) and fantasy (Martin's The Wall, Howard's Picts) settings, but I am unaware of any in Golarion.
Lastwall (almost by definition) has built quite a number of walls and fortifications to keep out the orcs from the Hold of Belkzen.
The first was the Sunwall, the next was Hordeline, both of which fell. The current wall is as of yet unnamed. See here for more details: http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lastwall
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they are a good source of conflict in real world (Hadrian, Great Wall, Berlin) and fantasy (Martin's The Wall, Howard's Picts) settings, but I am unaware of any in Golarion.Teleportation and flight make walls a somewhat questionable defense in a magic fantasy world :)
Teleportaion and flight are not readily available to most large armies, even in Golarion.
Teleportaion and flight are not readily available to most large armies, even in Golarion.they are a good source of conflict in real world (Hadrian, Great Wall, Berlin) and fantasy (Martin's The Wall, Howard's Picts) settings, but I am unaware of any in Golarion.Teleportation and flight make walls a somewhat questionable defense in a magic fantasy world :)
What about the remaining elf gates?
I've always liked the idea of strike teams from Kyonin being able to strike all over Avistan should they wish. They just have more important things to do than get tied up in human politics.
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Teleportaion and flight are not readily available to most large armies, even in Golarion.they are a good source of conflict in real world (Hadrian, Great Wall, Berlin) and fantasy (Martin's The Wall, Howard's Picts) settings, but I am unaware of any in Golarion.Teleportation and flight make walls a somewhat questionable defense in a magic fantasy world :)What about the remaining elf gates?
I've always liked the idea of strike teams from Kyonin being able to strike all over Avistan should they wish. They just have more important things to do than get tied up in human politics.
The elf gates, first of all, are pretty controlled by the elves, who are not a race that's prone to launching attacks on people who would defend themselves with walls in the first place. In the second place, the elf gates go to specific fixed locations, and there's actually NOT a lot of them, so chances that you'd be able to use an elf gate to bypass a wall that is in the way of your invading army to get to what's on the far side are slim. And even if you DID convince the elves to let you use an elf-gate and even if it DID go where you want to go, it's still more or less a one person at a time trip. Horses don't fit through all of them, and siege engines certainly won't. Fitting an army through one would be like fitting a 6 lane freeway through one lane; there'd be a LOT of backup and it'd take forever. Meanwhile, the folks you're trying to invade can react to deal with you.
It's not that elves have more important things to do... it's that they're fundamentally GOOD and thus aren't interested in world domination.
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Fitting an army through one would be like fitting a 6 lane freeway through one lane; there'd be a LOT of backup and it'd take forever. Meanwhile, the folks you're trying to invade can react to deal with you.
sounds like a job for two guards with attacks of opportunities and combat reflexes... maybe a few extra to switch out when current guard runs out of AOO
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sounds like a job for two guards with attacks of opportunities and combat reflexes... maybe a few extra to switch out when current guard runs out of AOOFitting an army through one would be like fitting a 6 lane freeway through one lane; there'd be a LOT of backup and it'd take forever. Meanwhile, the folks you're trying to invade can react to deal with you.
Or maybe a blade barrier placed at the other end of the gate...
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It's not that elves have more important things to do... it's that they're fundamentally GOOD and thus aren't interested in world domination.
This is the problem with the ability of the Elves to live for hundreds of years. They're not interested in world domination because of ROI (Return On Investment). They're probably already living off the interest of all of their investments in diversified portfolios. What's world domination going to give them that their stock brokers aren't already doing?
-Perry
Lastwall (almost by definition) has built quite a number of walls and fortifications to keep out the orcs from the Hold of Belkzen.
The first was the Sunwall, the next was Hordeline, both of which fell. The current wall is as of yet unnamed. See here for more details: http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lastwall
Thank you, that is good information. I always took the nation's name as a metaphor, and my old Pathfinder Chronicles does not mention them. Thanks again.
The elf gates, first of all, are pretty controlled by the elves, who are not a race that's prone to launching attacks on people who would defend themselves with walls in the first place. In the second place, the elf gates go to specific fixed locations, and there's actually NOT a lot of them, so chances that you'd be able to use an elf gate to bypass a wall that is in the way of your invading army to get to what's on the far side are slim. And even if you DID convince the elves to let you use an elf-gate and even if it DID go where you want to go, it's still more or less a one person at a time trip. Horses don't fit through all of them, and siege engines certainly won't. Fitting an army through one would be like fitting a 6 lane freeway through one lane; there'd be a LOT of backup and it'd take forever. Meanwhile, the folks you're trying to invade can react to deal with you.It's not that elves have more important things to do... it's that they're fundamentally GOOD and thus aren't interested in world domination.
The elves are a patient lot. I'm sure they could mange to deploy an army with it. Though... what an elf army would be made up of is beyond me.
I plan on running Red Hand of Doom soon, and I'll be replacing the wild elves with a well-guarded elf gate and playing up the presence of the Five Kings Dwarves. Isger's a great backdrop for this kind of thing, but I'm not sure what I'd do with druma in the middle.
Now, back to the topic at hand, I'd be VERY surprised if Druma or the Dwarves hadn't fortified their borders against another goblin invasion.
Not much detail on it, but there's a number of massive fortifications/walls/gates to the south of the Mwangi jungle (off the map) situated facing to the south.
Ooh... I didn't know that.
Any idea what they are keeping out? (or in?)
Do I have ideas for it? Why yes. :)
We'll have to see if it gets explored later in print by myself or anyone else, till then, nothing official obviously.
The text has them as being possibly of pre-Earthfall construction, of ancient Mwangi progenitor-culture construction. Who or what they were intended to keep out isn't known. At the moment, there's precious little talking about that period, and that area in Garund south of the Parinarsis Wall. Would be utterly awesome to explore the other half of that continent in the future.
It may not be an actual physical wall, but there's also the Wardstone barrier around the Worldwound.
How else would they keep the ceilings from falling?
The elves are a patient lot. I'm sure they could mange to deploy an army with it. Though... what an elf army would be made up of is beyond me.
The elf gates, first of all, are pretty controlled by the elves, who are not a race that's prone to launching attacks on people who would defend themselves with walls in the first place. In the second place, the elf gates go to specific fixed locations, and there's actually NOT a lot of them, so chances that you'd be able to use an elf gate to bypass a wall that is in the way of your invading army to get to what's on the far side are slim. And even if you DID convince the elves to let you use an elf-gate and even if it DID go where you want to go, it's still more or less a one person at a time trip. Horses don't fit through all of them, and siege engines certainly won't. Fitting an army through one would be like fitting a 6 lane freeway through one lane; there'd be a LOT of backup and it'd take forever. Meanwhile, the folks you're trying to invade can react to deal with you.It's not that elves have more important things to do... it's that they're fundamentally GOOD and thus aren't interested in world domination.
Patience isn't really going to help with a choke point though.
If you have 5000 troops and need to get them through this small lane, patience doesn't get you through faster or protect the guys from getting attacked on the other side.
And if you did get everyone across with no problem, which would probably take a few hours, you're pretty much limited to what one man can carry and still have to form battle ranks (which could take hours).
Patience helps with planning, and even in some battles. But the only use would be for extremely small strike forces, and those aren't going to win wars.
Patience helps with planning, and even in some battles. But the only use would be for extremely small strike forces, and those aren't going to win wars.Wars in Pathfinder are not going to resemble anything like real world middle ages warfare. A small strike force with summoning, AoE, and buff/healing support (like a group of high-level PCs) CAN often expect to do more than an army of hundreds.
This, however, may be less common than you might think, especially when you consider that every given nation generally can count the number of NPC's with class levels above 8-10 on one hand. The Watcher-Lord of Vigel in Lastwall is a 6th level Paladin. The stats for many casters also suggest that your average NPC spellcaster is not necessarily going to be minmaxed for maximum efficacy.
Golarion is a relatively low-power world, and I suspect it was constructed that way in part so that its societies and their conflicts could still function in a recognizable way.
Individuals with the power to really change the way warfare works on that scale are NOT common on Golarion, especially when compared with the number of petty tyrants, warlords, nobles and nations with a bone to pick. The places where heroes cause the battlefield to resemble more modern warfare are going to be the exception, not the rule.
Conventional wars could conceivably happen all the time.
To the OP: While there is no specific mention of an actual wall, I also refer you to Mendev, which DOES have an enchanted Border to keep the demons of The Worldwound at bay with a series of magical Wardstones. This border can have much the same effec, in terms of the stories you can tell, as a conventional wall.
Ooh... I didn't know that.
Any idea what they are keeping out? (or in?)
Do I have ideas for it? Why yes. :)
We'll have to see if it gets explored later in print by myself or anyone else, till then, nothing official obviously.
Are you kidding? Everyone knows what the giant walls at the edge of the jungle are keeping in :)
Patience helps with planning, and even in some battles. But the only use would be for extremely small strike forces, and those aren't going to win wars.Wars in Pathfinder are not going to resemble anything like real world middle ages warfare. A small strike force with summoning, AoE, and buff/healing support (like a group of high-level PCs) CAN often expect to do more than an army of hundreds.
I'm not arguing that they can't do damage. What I'm saying is that they can't win the war.
A small strike force can't hold the territory that needs to be occupied, especially if summonings and AoE's were very important. Especially when the other side will probably have the same resources.
The point is that Elfgates aren't going to work for an invasion force. Even a small strike team will be slaughtered if the enemy is aware of the gate and prepared for anyone to come through.
Episode after episode of Stargate disagrees with you.
The Goa'uld wouldn't recognize good military tactics if it bit them in the snake.
Episode after episode of Stargate disagrees with you.
Are we really going to use Stargate as proof here? Stargate?
Fine...
Stargates are big enough to fly small ships through.
Elfgates are barely big enough for a horse.
That isn't going to have an effect when you try and send your army through? Especially when the enemy starts moving in on your position and you still have to form up ranks? Remember, this being a fantasy world, you can assume that they have magic users with the same capablilities as yours available.
Besides, the power of being MAIN CHARACTERS does wonders for how stupid tactics turn out. Otherwise strike teams of four people wouldn't be able to take over entire nations and keep them.
That whole MAIN CHARACTERS bit is my point. In my eyes, Golarion is far less grounded in real-life and more in TV-action for determining what is feasible.Episode after episode of Stargate disagrees with you.Are we really going to use Stargate as proof here? Stargate?
Fine...
Stargates are big enough to fly small ships through.
Elfgates are barely big enough for a horse.
That isn't going to have an effect when you try and send your army through? Especially when the enemy starts moving in on your position and you still have to form up ranks? Remember, this being a fantasy world, you can assume that they have magic users with the same capablilities as yours available.
Besides, the power of being MAIN CHARACTERS does wonders for how stupid tactics turn out. Otherwise strike teams of four people wouldn't be able to take over entire nations and keep them.
The question is, however, do you assume that the rest of the world enjoys the same meta-benefits of "Main-Characterness"
You can have the PC's be the ones who use the extraordinary tactics to break conventional armies whilst still allowing for the fact that most nations aren't going to have multiple SF-style groups of High Level Characters.
The default NPC stats in the books suggest a fairly low overall power-level in terms of the NPC population of the world. High Level game changers are not exactly common.
Teleportaion and flight are not readily available to most large armies, even in Golarion.they are a good source of conflict in real world (Hadrian, Great Wall, Berlin) and fantasy (Martin's The Wall, Howard's Picts) settings, but I am unaware of any in Golarion.Teleportation and flight make walls a somewhat questionable defense in a magic fantasy world :)What about the remaining elf gates?
I've always liked the idea of strike teams from Kyonin being able to strike all over Avistan should they wish. They just have more important things to do than get tied up in human politics.
Not getting wiped out perhaps? The thing is, if they chose to strike at human nations, the humans might band together to wipe out the elf threat.
The gates might help getting places quickly, but those humans are basically everywhere already. If they team up to kill all the elves (especially if they turned out to be a threat with their gates and aggressive attitude), sheer numbers alone would doom the elves. And those human nations often have more than just numbers going for them.