Why is there so much hate for 3PP, and what can I, no, we, do to change that?

[gnomersy]

nathan blackmer wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?

Further explanation;

We've only had one player that flat out resisted leveling, and we've sent her on her way. The rest would have been happy to do their sheets, but they're either A.) first time players or B.) don't have access to the program.

It's not really a sense of entitlement thing, just that Matt (and I say this with love) is a HUGE stickler for book keeping. We used to use excel sheets and matt would reject them back to people for errors... herolab fits the bill well for the party and keeps THAT whole situation from happenning again.

Well that explains that I mean I was feeling a bit like Cheapy when I first read that but I admit I wouldn't buy Herolab to do my Character sheets mostly because I'm broke but also because doing them on excel is fun (except I'm terrible about recording how often I shoot as a Gunslinger instead I just ask how many rounds we've been in combat and dump the max amount of ammo usually XD)

I admit I probably have a better than average ability to set up the proper equations and what not on excel and almost certainly more time to kill than most people do as well so that helps too also I'm pretty nitpicky about getting things right.

[bigkilla]

As the GM for my games I keep track of and update all of the players character sheets in Herolab, I then import the info into D20pro, I also upload a copy of each character sheet and info onto our groups Google Site for the particular campaign. I do not stop players from making and updating their own sheets but I use the sheets I make of their characters for any info I need. Some of the players who are newer to Pathfinder just use the sheets I make and do not bother with their own.

[Kthulhu]

sirmattdusty wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

That's a shame, because building characters (even, or possibly even especially, with tool like Hero Lab) is probably one of the best ways to learn the rules. Tell them to make their own characters!

You know who I'm talking about ;)

Actually, it wasn't until today that I noticed that this was you guys.

I still have one of those old excell sheets, with some minor refinements that I've made. Still my favorite way to actually have the character on me. Hero Lab is great for building the character, but I invariably then transfer the character to the excell sheet for actual use.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

sirmattdusty wrote:

Really?......hmmmm....that's really my only hesitation to allowing 3PP. Does it come with the HeroLab files when you purchase them off of the Paizo store?

Yep. It even includes short instructions on how to install the file in your hero lab program.

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

When it comes to 3PP, I have some 3E/3.5 stuff and one Pathfinder item (Psionics Unleashed, which you will never see me not allow). I'm open to buying more, but the issue is that I only do PDFs if they are a couple dollars, and even then rarely. I much prefer print copies. I understand that those aren't necessarily profitable, but I still like them.

[The Best Goblin!]

I only switched to Pathfinder in the last year, so my perspective is pretty fresh. Because most experienced gamers I know are primarily concerned with their stats and builds, and power gaming in general, I don't really talk with my local gaming community, as I'm a story and role playing guy. Most other experienced players I do talk with have left the gaming scene at large, and still use D&D 2.0 or earlier. I keep a group of less dedicated gamers I GM for, because I like their laid back attitude, and their lack of experience means less clashing over some idea about how gaming "should be". At the same time, they don't really search out their own material, I bring the books and they say, "I'll do that".

The point is that I don't talk to other up-to-date gamers often, so I somehow missed out on Pathfinder until last year. Like many, I never moved on to D&D 4.0, because it was neither involved or versatile enough for my taste.

A year ago I was running an epic (not epic level) 3.5 game, and was working on my own system for kingdom building and mass combat, and running into problems. Relevant 3.5 3pp material sucked, and my opinions on 3pp material in general were still in the 3.5 "undependable, improperly powered in one direction or the other" realm. The other experienced gamer in my group brought in a player in his own game, who told me about Pathfinder. I took a quick look, and switched immediately. Although I couldn't switch the then-current game to Pathfinder because I didn't want to bother converting already unbalanced classes into a new system with a slightly higher power level (lots of non-core D&D classes, too much work for the payoff), since it is cross-compatible, I wanted to see what Pathfinder had to support kingdom building. Nothing core, but I saw there were 3pp books, and I cautiously peeked. Slamming into 2011 from the 1995 gaming world, I can say 3pp material is very different.

I found Jon Brazer Enterprises' Book of the River Nations, and I found it very satisfying. However, I wanted something more involved for mass combat, so I picked up Adamant Entertainment's Warpath, and was also greatly satisfied. So, I needed to think how I'd use BotRN rules for army production to create Warpath armies. In 3.5 3pp materials, this would be an enormous headache. But both publishers created something so together that their systems can mesh almost seamlessly. With very little legwork, I had exactly what I needed. Now, I'm buying 3pp blind, but still confident, from the aforementioned publishers, as well as Tricky Owl, Rite Publishing, Frog God, and the list is growing. With all things, there is good and not-so-good, but I think there's only two purchases out of dozens that I'd really label "disappointment". I'm getting happy just typing this.

[Kolokotroni]

The Best Goblin! wrote:

I found Jon Brazer Enterprises' Book of the River Nations, and I found it very satisfying. However, I wanted something more involved for mass combat, so I picked up Adamant Entertainment's Warpath, and was also greatly satisfied. So, I needed to think how I'd use BotRN rules for army production to create Warpath armies. In 3.5 3pp materials, this would be an enormous headache. But both publishers created something so together that their systems can mesh almost seamlessly. With very little legwork, I had exactly what I needed. Now, I'm buying 3pp blind, but still confident, from the aforementioned publishers, as well as Tricky Owl, Rite Publishing, Frog God, and the list is growing. With all things, there is good and not-so-good, but I think there's only two purchases out of dozens that I'd really label "disappointment". I'm getting happy just typing this.

This is a direct result of paizo's open policy towards their content. Its hard to over state how much we all get out of this. Jon Brazers Rules are actually an expansion of the kingdom rules from the Kingmaker Adventure path. I am not sure if adamant based their rules on that but it was there for them to use. One of the problems with 3rd party material in the 3.5 era was it was all over the place. With the open policy set by paizo, 3pps are actually working both with paizo material and eachother for an overall better suite of products.