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Why is there so much hate for 3PP, and what can I, no, we, do to change that?


Compatible Products from Other Publishers

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Lyingbastard wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.
Pun aside, I'm glad you think so. That was I believe the work of 4WFG's Rob Thomson, and was designed for use by an antagonistic race that dwelt on frozen plains and in ice caves, where other materials would be extremely difficult to come by. It would also be natural for use on the planes, in the cold reaches where the air and water planes intersect.

i would love to but i don't know how.....? with out posting my email in this forum


LazarX wrote:
meatrace wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!
What might be best is something like this, Monte Cook Presents: The Year's Best d20 but done by one of the Paizo staff or more respected community reviewers. You need someone who is legitimately respected by a large number of the Paizo fan base to do something like this which would only add credibility to 3PP.
That's actually a pretty cool idea IMO. Even if it doesn't fit into Paizo's release schedule now, it would be something to work on in the future.
I on the other hand, don't see the point of such a product. They'd have to spend time negotiating rights, put staff time to produce a product of questionable marketability and none of the content would actually be new... after all it's all been published before in items that are still selling. Quite frankly, I'd much prefer that Paizo's FINITE AMOUNT OF staff time be spent publishing NEW product rather than repackaging someone elses's.

I honestly doubt the rights would be hard to get..most of the 3PP would love the extra press, and most would just be proud of the fact that they were chosen. I am also a little unsure of why you chose "questionable marketability"; they sell quite well as it is..to have a new market open up, with the paizo folks saying "hey this stuff is good" would make it, in itself marketable. Some of it will be new stuff to people that are not even exposed to 3pp products..which would then cause them to seek out more by the people that wrote it. I am also fairly sure that the 3pp would be willing to do most of the layout, etc..all the Paizo folks would have to do is polish it to their liking. In a way its low work for them, costing little actual time, effort, or money


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lobolusk, you can find LPJr's e-mail address at their website: lpjdesgin Bottom right, in the image.

Andoran

Blackerose wrote:

I honestly doubt the rights would be hard to get..most of the 3PP would love the extra press, and most would just be proud of the fact that they were chosen. I am also a little unsure of why you chose "questionable marketability"; they sell quite well as it is..to have a new market open up, with the paizo folks saying "hey this stuff is good" would make it, in itself marketable. Some of...

I agree.

It would certainly be a lot of work and effort to fairly determine what made it into such a product but I think it certainly could be worthwhile.

In addition to doing freelance writing and illustration for many of the 3PP companies we are talking about, I am a graphic designer / layout artist in 'real life' - If I can carve out the extra time, I would certainly be willing to help on a project such as this by donating some garphic design time ...

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Just because a rule is suboptimal to other rules doesn't meant the rule shouldn't exist.

QfT.

Shadow Lodge

If you made a collection of the cream of the crop of 3PP material, the thing that might look like "questionable marketability" in comparison is ultimately a couple of offerings from Paizo itself.


Kthulhu wrote:
If you made a collection of the cream of the crop of 3PP material, the thing that might look like "questionable marketability" in comparison is ultimately a couple of offerings from Paizo itself.

Oooh, snap!


Kthulhu wrote:
If you made a collection of the cream of the crop of 3PP material, the thing that might look like "questionable marketability" in comparison is ultimately a couple of offerings from Paizo itself.

I actually quite like the Ultimate books.

Shadow Lodge

I don't dislike them, but you'd be hard-pressed to find find a large number of people who think that the Ultimate books are of the same quality as the Core Rules or the APG.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

There's lots of 3PP hate? I guess I hang out with nice folks too much: I can only think of one that I'd say I'd hate. I guess there are a lot I am just dead neutral about, because they haven't grabbed me yet. But hate? With SuperGenius, Clockwork Gnome, KQ/OD, FrogGod, and Rite Publishing out there? And Jon Brazer Enterprises seems to have been turning up the heat, too.


I dont' allow non Paizo material in my PF games. Not yet. And that's mostly due to my experiences with insanely overpowered items, spells and classes from the volumes of 3PP for 3.5. The first book I ever banned outright was "Book of Vile Deeds" but soon after that we converted to PF and I've not yet found any reason to allow any 3PP. We do just fine with the Paizo stuff.

All of the GMs in my gaming group do the same.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I dont' allow non Paizo material in my PF games. Not yet. And that's mostly due to my experiences with insanely overpowered items, spells and classes from the volumes of 3PP for 3.5. The first book I ever banned outright was "Book of Vile Deeds" but soon after that we converted to PF and I've not yet found any reason to allow any 3PP. We do just fine with the Paizo stuff.

All of the GMs in my gaming group do the same.

Well based on your statement, you are talking about something that most likely happened more that 5 years with people who have not don'r work for Pathfinder. But funny enough many of the people who make Paizo material ARE 3PP. So why do you think they would make their own personal publishing products of a lesser quality then the one they create for Paizo?


LMPjr007 wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I dont' allow non Paizo material in my PF games. Not yet. And that's mostly due to my experiences with insanely overpowered items, spells and classes from the volumes of 3PP for 3.5. The first book I ever banned outright was "Book of Vile Deeds" but soon after that we converted to PF and I've not yet found any reason to allow any 3PP. We do just fine with the Paizo stuff.

All of the GMs in my gaming group do the same.

Well based on your statement, you are talking about something that most likely happened more that 5 years with people who have not don'r work for Pathfinder. But funny enough many of the people who make Paizo material ARE 3PP. So why do you think they would make their own personal publishing products of a lesser quality then the one they create for Paizo?

I'm not saying it's lesser quality. I'm saying that so far I don't see a need for it.


Kthulhu wrote:
I don't dislike them, but you'd be hard-pressed to find find a large number of people who think that the Ultimate books are of the same quality as the Core Rules or the APG.

I think they are easily the same quality and they get a LOT of use at my game table.


Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.
by cool you mean absolutely worthless?.........and ineffective i can make a new special material called paper you take paper and wrap it is masking tape to make it "sharp" it ids completely ineffective against all armor and you have to make a fort check dc30 every time you try to attack anything.
No, it provides rules for something that's a fairly common archetype in winter / northlands campaigns. That's pretty cool.

Hey, cool! Glad that you think so!


Lyingbastard wrote:
Pun aside, I'm glad you think so. That was I believe the work of 4WFG's Rob Thomson, and was designed for use by an antagonistic race that dwelt on frozen plains and in ice caves, where other materials would be extremely difficult to come by. It would also be natural for use on the planes, in the cold reaches where the air and water planes intersect.

That was mine, but I think you actually suggested it. Or maybe Kat suggested it. I can't remember now.


2 out of 3 of my top favorite classes are third party, and 4 out of my top ten are third party.

1 Mighty Godling (Super Genius Games)
2 Time Thief (Super Genius Games)
3 Alchemist (Advanced Player's Guide)
4 Wolfshifter (Paizo Fans United)
5 Gunslinger (Ultimate Combat)
6 Dragonrider (Super Genius Games)
7 Luckbringer (Rite Publishing)
8 Fighter (Core Rule Book)
9 Magus (Ultimate Magic)
10 Monk (Core Rule Book)


Realmwalker wrote:
2 out of 3 of my top favorite classes are third party, and 4 out of my top ten are third party.

Damn, I wonder how we could get the Rook on that list.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I dont' allow non Paizo material in my PF games. Not yet. And that's mostly due to my experiences with insanely overpowered items, spells and classes from the volumes of 3PP for 3.5. The first book I ever banned outright was "Book of Vile Deeds" but soon after that we converted to PF and I've not yet found any reason to allow any 3PP. We do just fine with the Paizo stuff.

All of the GMs in my gaming group do the same.

Well based on your statement, you are talking about something that most likely happened more that 5 years with people who have not don'r work for Pathfinder. But funny enough many of the people who make Paizo material ARE 3PP. So why do you think they would make their own personal publishing products of a lesser quality then the one they create for Paizo?

This is not a dig on 3PP. Paizo has the label. With that label comes what I view as a guarantee of quality. That is not saying 3pp does not have that quality.

I would expect that a freelancer putting out a product for their own company would be as good as Paizo. I think part of the challenge is a 3pp needs to 'proove' themselves for quality which is hard to do if not given the chance. Paizo is almost like that quality label.

I have bought and used 3pp products. I don't however allow everything because I do my due dilegence (SP please!)as a GM.


Carl Cascone wrote:

This is not a dig on 3PP. Paizo has the label. With that label comes what I view as a guarantee of quality. That is not saying 3pp does not have that quality.

I would expect that a freelancer putting out a product for their own company would be as good as Paizo. I think part of the challenge is a 3pp needs to 'proove' themselves for quality which is hard to do if not given the chance. Paizo is almost like that quality label.

I have bought and used 3pp products. I don't however allow everything because I do my due dilegence (SP please!)as a GM.

I as a player and business man do understand this, but I think it's funny when you here people talk about a particular writer as being great, then say they wouldn't buy his product because it was not done by Paizo. I think in this day and age, quality 3PP product and companies are known. Most of the 3PP are pretty reasonable and you can contact if you have a issue with something you might have purchased or was not up to your snuff. At least I know you can do that with us at LPJ Design. We the amount of creative people in the 3PP arena I just don't want people to miss something good because it was not made by Paizo.

Silver Crusade

To be honest, 3.5 ridiculous supplements like the "Book of Erotic Fantasy", or more recently, "Fursona", do nothing to help on the subject of 3PP credibility.

Part of the reason our group switched to PF was to find a new, good basis, without rules bloat. Since then, additional content is added little drop by little drop, but using 3PP content is still globally a taboo... which is paradoxal since I'm the group's rules lawyer and usually, my word serves as a final decider between what is reasonably possible to add to the game and what isn't - the DM is then the final decider whether the campaign, or a player can use X option or not.

Paradoxically, the fact I actually design 3PP content doesn't make 3PP more allowable for my group. Since I'm the one that knows the rules the most, they all stick to core Paizo books options and don't feel the need to play something else that what already exists.

Silver Crusade

I don't use 3PP because:

1) my players refuse to do their own character sheets, relying on one person to do them all
2) as a result of that, he resorts to using HeroLab for convenience
3) HeroLab does not include 3PP material - classes, feats, traits, items, equipment, ect.

we've tried to add that stuff in ourselves at one time, but we figured out it takes way too much time and it's really confusing. Maybe if HeroLab supported 3PP or if 3PP provided HeroLab files that included their content, I'd be more than happy to use them. I've purchased a couple of books and was really impressed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:
WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?

My fellow players don't refuse to do their own sheets, but they have more fun when I do it for them, which usually happens since their knowledge of the system's possibilities and deepness is limited. That's tiring by the way, as they always want a concept, but I always need more details about what they want - details that they don't seem to understand I need them to provide extensively as to get the character right.

Silver Crusade

There's so many reasons why they don't, it'll take too long of a post to go into it all. Long story short, they're the types of players that could care less if their 'character sheet' was a napkin and crayon. Even the HeroLab guy often forgets to put character names on the sheets. I have 3 "Unnamed Hero's" in my campaign right now.

Silver Crusade

Maxximilius wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?
My fellow players don't refuse to do their own sheets, but they have more fun when I do it for them, which usually happens since their knowledge of the system's possibilities and deepness is limited. That's tiring by the way, as they always want a concept, but I always need more details about what they want - details that they don't seem to understand I need them to provide extensively as to get the character right.

yeah, that's another reason why they don't do it. the HeroLab player is obviously the rules lawyer, and they must feel better about it if he does their sheets. helps them avoid mistakes, I guess. I really don't mind now, honestly, at least the sheets get updated prior to the game, and I'm not worried that they did it wrong. Though the little things on a character sheet, like name, age, height, ect often get excluded. Mundane equipment also seems to be one of those things that never gets added anymore...

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's a shame, because building characters (even, or possibly even especially, with tool like Hero Lab) is probably one of the best ways to learn the rules. Tell them to make their own characters!

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
That's a shame, because building characters (even, or possibly even especially, with tool like Hero Lab) is probably one of the best ways to learn the rules.

Ain't that the truth. First thing I do, as a GM, when trying to learn any new system is make a half dozen characters. It forces you to learn where things are in the rulebook and gives you a better understanding of how things mesh together.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Carl Cascone wrote:

This is not a dig on 3PP. Paizo has the label. With that label comes what I view as a guarantee of quality. That is not saying 3pp does not have that quality.

I would expect that a freelancer putting out a product for their own company would be as good as Paizo. I think part of the challenge is a 3pp needs to 'proove' themselves for quality which is hard to do if not given the chance. Paizo is almost like that quality label.

I have bought and used 3pp products. I don't however allow everything because I do my due dilegence (SP please!)as a GM.

I as a player and business man do understand this, but I think it's funny when you here people talk about a particular writer as being great, then say they wouldn't buy his product because it was not done by Paizo. I think in this day and age, quality 3PP product and companies are known. Most of the 3PP are pretty reasonable and you can contact if you have a issue with something you might have purchased or was not up to your snuff. At least I know you can do that with us at LPJ Design. We the amount of creative people in the 3PP arena I just don't want people to miss something good because it was not made by Paizo.

until recently I did not buy 3pp. I only bought paizo because of dragon's quality. On Pathfinders release I started to investigate 3pp and I indeed discovered that the designers of 3pp were often the writers of great Forgotten realms products I owned. This changed my attitude.

Silver Crusade

Big problem is that I use D20PFSRD as my omni-tool whenever needed... and we are only 2 out of our 5-players group to be decent with english, the other one being just that : decent. (Don't think I myself am too bad actually.)
So they are usually stuck with a french SRD that takes a humongous time to add translated content, and I end up being a personal councelor on any design attempt. Thing is most players would take way too much time to understand the rules, in comparison to the amount they need to just have fun every week with their pals, so they just rely on me.

It just becomes really hard on level-up days, where I have to suggest things to 5 players at once with often complicated builds and decisive choices to make... and even end up being told to go faster, while I'm not spending a second of my time thinking about how MY character should evolve.


I write 3rd party content.

However, when I run my Pathfinder games, I unashamedly tell everyone that I'm a psionics DM. To explain why would take more than a paragraph. :)

I will always run psionics campaigns. :) Boom.

That being said, I created the Elemental spells in Occult Lore for Atlas Games. They run gamut from being less than powerful to God-like (level 9 -- for example: such a lovely spell like Acid Rain and Volcano Seed). I was actually thinking of redoing the project for Pathfinder.

I.e. the spells and not the classes.

I love using 3rd Party content, but I typically use 3rd Party content that makes sense to me. I.e. if I want to have an SG team appear as part of the game, I'd have them encounter a Stargate and the SG team. I'd also use rules from the Stargate SG-1 RPG (that Roleplaying Game is BRILLIANT! It works well with Paizo's idea that Golarion is in the same Universe as our Earth) to create the team.

If it doesn't make sense for my campaign at the time, I don't use it. Simple as that. Usually my line-up for 3rd party content is -- Psionics UNLEASHED!, Hyperconscious, and Stargate SG-1 RPG, and the WoW RPG (I allow the Warlock class out of that, the Wizards of the Coast Warlock class sucks!).

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

sirmattdusty wrote:

3) HeroLab does not include 3PP material - classes, feats, traits, items, equipment, ect.

...
Maybe if HeroLab supported 3PP or if 3PP provided HeroLab files that included their content, I'd be more than happy to use them.

There are a few that include Hero Lab files, but a quick search hasn't revealed any. I now that Book of Magic: Signature Spells 1 (Shameless Plug) includes the hero lab file of the spells included.

Paizo Employee Modules Overlord

sirmattdusty wrote:

I don't use 3PP because:

3) HeroLab does not include 3PP material - classes, feats, traits, items, equipment, ect.

The Genius Guide to the Dragonrider does include HeroLab files with the download, and we hope to add that to more of our products in the future.

I guess it'd be useful if the product description said that somewhere. I hadn't realized it didn't. Hmmmm.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Totally off topic, so I'm encasing in spoiler

sirmattdusty wrote:
Spoiler:
yeah, that's another reason why they don't do it. the HeroLab player is obviously the rules lawyer, and they must feel better about it if he does their sheets.

Spoiler:
I'm not a rules lawyer at all, and my group uses Hero Lab. It has really helped to speed up character creation, and because we project it up on the wall my players are a bit more cognizant about what options each other has chosen.


two thoughts...
As far as language barriers aside..if you don't make your own character, you are missing out on making it YOUR character, and as has been pointed out, its the best way to learn not only the rules of the game, but how to run your own character.
As to 3pp...I understand being wary due to past experinces, but at the same time..you won't know till you try. Look at the top companies, look at their products and ratings, and find something that would work for your game. The worst that happens is you are out 3-5$. On the other hand you may have a huge new resource. I am open to anything that is not blatantly overpowered in games I run. I even ran an all Super Genius classes game at a con that went over smashingly.

Andoran

Blackerose wrote:
I even ran an all Super Genius classes game at a con that went over smashingly.

Wow, cool - I'll bet that was interesting!


Purple Duck Games wrote:
Realmwalker wrote:
2 out of 3 of my top favorite classes are third party, and 4 out of my top ten are third party.
Damn, I wonder how we could get the Rook on that list.

It was your half-medusa that caught my groups eye.

I'm going to give the Rook a look over as well.


Marc Radle wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
I even ran an all Super Genius classes game at a con that went over smashingly.
Wow, cool - I'll bet that was interesting!

I love the fact that you can easily do a balanced party with just the 4 Godling Classes.


All the Modern Path material has Hero Lab files, and they can be found within the software under the "Find Updates".

I buy a lot of other 3pp material, but if I am going to use it in a game, I put it in a dataset, (that's how the Modern Path began).

3pp help fill a void if I am looking for something specific and unusual.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

Carl Cascone wrote:


I have bought and used 3pp products. I don't however allow everything because I do my due dilegence (SP please!)as a GM.

Per your request!

diligence

You were very close. :)


Chuck Wright wrote:
Carl Cascone wrote:


I have bought and used 3pp products. I don't however allow everything because I do my due dilegence (SP please!)as a GM.

Per your request!

diligence

You were very close. :)

Many thanks!

:)

Andoran

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

For the record, I'd be really, really interested in seeing those Elemental Spells from Atlas Games' Occult Lore redone for Pathfinder. I got that book as part of a lot on Ebay, and used the heck out of it.

As for the topic itself? I use the heck out of 3PP stuff. A Fistful of Denarii's classes are regularly picked at my table, and everyone in my group has a copy of it because I BOUGHT it for them. :) I can't imagine making an arcane caster without using the 4WFG Arcane magic book. Obsidian Twilight converted my favorite Monte Cook feats into PF, and added some interesting concepts as well. (Our Feral Halfling Druid used the racial traits from this book), not to mention the Undefeated book from that line, which every character at my table has at least one feat from. The Super Genius Games Adventure Guide has some magnificent base classes that make the archetypes they represent way better than core does, and Rite Publishing's 101 series is used constantly by my guys. (I almost wept when I got to the ad mentioning the 1001 Spells collection isn't out until Fall in the back of the In The Company of Monsters compilation. Then I reread the Wyrd rebuild for Pathfinder and just couldn't be depressed with that to look forward to!) I couldn't imagine running Kingmaker without Jon Brazer's stuff... it's that integrated. Tricky Owlbear Games's Forgotten Foes is a bestiary that no fan of the classic game should do without. Headless Hydra's Eldritch Secrets and new Campaign book are spectacular explorations of the outer edges of magic. (Disclaimer: I contributed to Eldritch Secrets. If you find something you think is broken and stupid in there, it's probably me, and shouldn't reflect badly on the rest of the fine product.) And Frog God Games might as well be Paizo for how integrated it is into the Adventure Paths... and the astoundingly high quality of the stuff. Kobold Quarterly is one of the few magazines I subscribe to, and Open Design never fails to knock it out of the park. And for every product I named, there's 5 others I know I've overlooked or forgotten where came from. I guess what my rant comes down to is this: you're missing out on some of the best stuff Pathfinder has to offer if you need the Golem logo on a product to use it. Give it a shot, and don't let bad experiences with fly by night publishers in the free for all days poison you to some excellent ones with these fine folks.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Stark Enterprises VP wrote:
I couldn't imagine running Kingmaker without Jon Brazer's stuff... it's that integrated.

You, sir, just made my day. Thank you.

Silver Crusade

Kthulhu wrote:
That's a shame, because building characters (even, or possibly even especially, with tool like Hero Lab) is probably one of the best ways to learn the rules. Tell them to make their own characters!

You know who I'm talking about ;)

Silver Crusade

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
sirmattdusty wrote:

3) HeroLab does not include 3PP material - classes, feats, traits, items, equipment, ect.

...
Maybe if HeroLab supported 3PP or if 3PP provided HeroLab files that included their content, I'd be more than happy to use them.
There are a few that include Hero Lab files, but a quick search hasn't revealed any. I now that Book of Magic: Signature Spells 1 (Shameless Plug) includes the hero lab file of the spells included.

Really?......hmmmm....that's really my only hesitation to allowing 3PP. Does it come with the HeroLab files when you purchase them off of the Paizo store?

However I did purchase Guide to the River Kingdoms and we do use that for our kingdom building. That guide clarified the kingdom building/mass combat rules sooooo much better.


sirmattdusty wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
sirmattdusty wrote:

3) HeroLab does not include 3PP material - classes, feats, traits, items, equipment, ect.

...
Maybe if HeroLab supported 3PP or if 3PP provided HeroLab files that included their content, I'd be more than happy to use them.
There are a few that include Hero Lab files, but a quick search hasn't revealed any. I now that Book of Magic: Signature Spells 1 (Shameless Plug) includes the hero lab file of the spells included.

Really?......hmmmm....that's really my only hesitation to allowing 3PP. Does it come with the HeroLab files when you purchase them off of the Paizo store?

However I did purchase Guide to the River Kingdoms and we do use that for our kingdom building. That guide clarified the kingdom building/mass combat rules sooooo much better.

Alright posting as one of Matt's players (and one of the two that does character sheets...) it would be better if everyone did their own... the problem is, we moved over to herolab EXCLUSIVELY for character sheets (partially because it ensures good book keeping) and with all the licenses and whatnot we run with the program EASILY costs $140+.

I think for us the problem was really more one of character sheet accuracy, but it WOULD be really nice if folks handled their own sheets. Normally, the people who level come over and we sit with them and they (more or less) level their own characters.

Just illuminating the situation a little bit :-)


Cheapy wrote:
WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?

Further explanation;

We've only had one player that flat out resisted leveling, and we've sent her on her way. The rest would have been happy to do their sheets, but they're either A.) first time players or B.) don't have access to the program.

It's not really a sense of entitlement thing, just that Matt (and I say this with love) is a HUGE stickler for book keeping. We used to use excel sheets and matt would reject them back to people for errors... herolab fits the bill well for the party and keeps THAT whole situation from happenning again.

Silver Crusade

nathan blackmer wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
WTF? Refuse to do their own character sheets? Sense of entitlement much?

Further explanation;

We've only had one player that flat out resisted leveling, and we've sent her on her way. The rest would have been happy to do their sheets, but they're either A.) first time players or B.) don't have access to the program.

It's not really a sense of entitlement thing, just that Matt (and I say this with love) is a HUGE stickler for book keeping. We used to use excel sheets and matt would reject them back to people for errors... herolab fits the bill well for the party and keeps THAT whole situation from happenning again.

Yep, I does luv me some accurate character sheets. :-)


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As a GM, I would flat out refuse to let a player do another player's character sheet - creation or leveling up. Do it yourself or don't play in my game, is my attitude. I'm certainly willing and happy to help my players, but I expect each and every one of them to keep track of their own character. It's next to impossible to really know the rules without building and leveling your own character on your own sheet.

Just my 2 coppers.

Andoran

sirmattdusty wrote:

Really?......hmmmm....that's really my only hesitation to allowing 3PP.

I have it on pretty good authority ... you might want to keep an eye on Super Genius Games next month then :)

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