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Previously in another thread I was concerned about everyone being a dervish dancer if they wanted to be a dex biased melee combatant regardless of background.
Naturally the agile weapon enhancement was brought up, but I don't feel that a magic weapon (and defiantly not a +1 enchantment) is the right way to go about it.
I find myself in agreement with James Jacobs when he said that he would like to see more ways to add dex to damage, but am unsure how to go about it. Is a feet the right answer? Something akin to Improved Weapon Finesse that uses dex for damage with finessable weapons?
The only other option I can think of would be a rules patch that lets you choose to add dax to damage, though that seems kind of strong at first blush.
Anyone have other thoughts on how to encourage a more diverse set of dex fighters?
I've always liked the idea of taking what the two-handed fighter gets and turning it around for the Dex fighter. Instead of 1 1/2 Str to damage, the Dex fighter gets 1 1/2 Dex to attack rolls when using... say a piercing weapon. Hit more often for less damage, which is kind of how finesse fighters seem to be portrayed anyway.
Most 3rd party settings have feats for this. Heck, in Iron Heroes it's a Trait.
Yes,there should be more abilities that allow you to use Dex for damage. It's the logical progression after Weapon Finesse.
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Doubt it'd be a problem to make a feat (hopefully not feet) out of it. I also like the idea of using INT for finesse weapon damage.
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Just a thought...
Improved Weapon Finesse (combat)
You're increased training in using your agility in melee combat translates to more damage.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your damage rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
I've always house-ruled this as a feat, to me it's the idea of using superior attack placement to enhance damage rather than brute strength, if I can play a class that adds my INT to damage, i definitely ought to be able to use my DEX for damage imho. I usually rule that weapon finesse must be taken first, and that it only works with weapons under the weapon finesse list.
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I like it. I've always wondered why there wasn't a feat like this, and especially after they added Dervish Dance.
Because a lot of people panic and scream when the topic is brought up. There's a lot of emotional investment in dex to damage being a bad thing, without any actual examination of the maths involved. It's almost a miniature religion.
i would agree that damage vs accuracy is the difference between a dex character and a strength character. In my personal opinion, strength has nothing do do with how accurate you are with a weapon. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you will hit your enemy; it's the difference between a martial artist and a weightlifter. One is much stronger, but the weightlifter can't touch the artist, and therefore can't hurt him. I would think a system where Dex is used to hit for weapons and strength is used to deal damage. That said, i could see some pretty rough balance issues if this system was in effect, forcing them to specialize in both dexterity (to hit) and strength (to hurt).
If i saw an improved finesse trait, i'd rather it double your dex modifier when trying to hit instead of adding dex to damage (maybe increase the crit range as well, but that could make one feat too good). The damage you get via where you put the blade is represented by Vital Stike; Sneak Attack, Critical Hits, ect.
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The concern seems to center around the removal of the need for the strength stat with one feat. Since str only affects to hit, damage, and combat maneuvers it is completely replaced by dex which effects the same three stats, and reflex, and AC. Essentially making strength a worthless stat. You are basic taking everything one stat gives you and replacing ALL of its functions with a feat or two.
Because a lot of people panic and scream when the topic is brought up. There's a lot of emotional investment in dex to damage being a bad thing, without any actual examination of the maths involved. It's almost a miniature religion.
^--This.
Agile ManuversWeapon Finesse
+dex to damage
AND I have a crazy AC?
Welcome to dumpstatting str instead of chr
Because a lot of people panic and scream when the topic is brought up. There's a lot of emotional investment in dex to damage being a bad thing, without any actual examination of the maths involved. It's almost a miniature religion.Personally, I don't see why people cry so much over the agile enchantment, it is specifically what people want, but they complain about the cost. Some classes have ways of adding dex to damage, but I believe it is for ranged characters.
A major issue with the dex and a half damage for a one handed weapon is the advantage it gives to characters like the magus whose damage potential now rivals the THF all the more.
I think a more elegant solution would be allowing 1/2 dex to damage. This would give a boost to TWF an overall damage bonus equal to their attacks if they hit with both. It would also give a small bonus to one handed fighters who mostly use that free hand for spell casting and so don't really need the higher bonus.
I believe the issue with he agility enchantment isn't price it's a problem with a flavor. If you wanted a dexterous fighter you don't want you weapon to make the character you want you characters abilities to be your character.
The concern seems to center around the removal of the need for the strength stat with one feat. Since str only affects to hit, damage, and combat maneuvers it is completely replaced by dex which effects the same three stats, and reflex, and AC. Essentially making strength a worthless stat.
Without mocking it up, how about a feat that a)has Weapon Finesse as a pre-req b)allows you to add Dex to finessable weapons as a damage bonus instead of Str but never 1.5 times and c)you still add your str PENALTY if any to the damage. So even the swashbuckler would want to have a 13 str to be able to power attack, and something like Ray of Enfeeblement would still affect a finesse fighter (potentially) the same way it affects a str-based fighter.
The concern seems to center around the removal of the need for the strength stat with one feat. Since str only affects to hit, damage, and combat maneuvers it is completely replaced by dex which effects the same three stats, and reflex, and AC. Essentially making strength a worthless stat. You are basic taking everything one stat gives you and replacing ALL of its functions with a feat or two.
Because a lot of people panic and scream when the topic is brought up. There's a lot of emotional investment in dex to damage being a bad thing, without any actual examination of the maths involved. It's almost a miniature religion.^--This.
Agile Manuvers
Weapon Finesse
+dex to damage
AND I have a crazy AC?Welcome to dumpstatting str instead of chr
And it only costs you 3 feats! Honestly, that's kinda fine for 3 feats.
Do remember you still need to be able to carry your weapons, armour and other gear. That stuff adds up fast.
The counterpoint is that adding dex to damage is already avalable via Dervish Dance. Most weapons this applies to are not available for power attack so the player will still be behind in damage vs a str fighghter or archer.
First of all yes the scimitar being non-light requires you to have power attack and that means STR 13 but the light finnesable weapons can be used with the piranha strike*.
*A feat i believe should be in a core book but i can understand why it isn't.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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In my personal opinion, strength has nothing do do with how accurate you are with a weapon. Just because you are strong doesn't mean you will hit your enemy; it's the difference between a martial artist and a weightlifter. One is much stronger, but the weightlifter can't touch the artist, and therefore can't hurt him.
The idea that strength helps with hitting comes back to the idea that many medieval weapons were more about powering your way through your opponent's guard than they were about accuracy. The opponent's shield or parry doesn't matter if you just casually push it aside as part of your swing, and their armor is less consequential if you are bending or breaking it with each strike.
If you want realism, touch attacks should probably all be finessed, but that's a level of complexity that seems unnecessary to me.
There was a supplement in 3E/d20 (AEG) which had a feat called Superior Finesse.
Superior Finesse
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: You may substitute your dex modifier in place of your str modifier for melee damage.
A Paizo thread found HERE talks more about adding Dex to damage. In addition to this, there are other ways of adding Dex to damage such as the Shadow Hand feat from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords but you have to know a Stance and Manevuer from the Shadow Hand, be in that stance (not a hard thing), and use a perferre weapon (mostly all weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse). The better benefit is that this bonus from Dex is STACKED to your Melee-Damage instead of replacing your Strength modifier.
It's quite awesome.
I've got a weapon master8/Scout/Brute12 build that took Shadow Jaunt/Assassins Stance for that feat. From a 3.5/PF game
Wielding Deadly Precision Subtle Kukris, BAB 17, Wpn Fcs, Melee Weapon Mastery, GTWF.
DPR is over 400 per full attack.
:)
I have no issue with feat chain that gives you Dex to damage. So something like "improved weapon finesse" allowing you dex bonus to add to weapon damage instead of strength. I wouldn't have 2 handed weapons doing 1.5 Dex to you damage though.
Anyone have other thoughts on how to encourage a more diverse set of dex fighters?The trouble with allowing dexterity to enhance damage is that dexterity becomes too good of a stat when compared to strength. Dex gives you a bonus to hit (weapon finesse), damage, AC, to hit with missiles, initiative, and to reflex saves, plus it is what enhances many highly useful skills such as escape artist, acrobatics, and stealth.
4th edition D&D's answer to this issue was to let every stat enhance a defense, and have every stat be useful to a particular set of builds (class + class option).
I believe that's called synergy and it's normally considered a good thing. Other classes have loads of Synergy that people don't bat an eye to such as Wizard's Intelligence to Spell DCs, bonus Spells, Spellcraft, Knowledge skills, Decipher Script (v3.5, Craft skills, bonus languages, and bonus spells known at 1st level. Wizards, at best, need 3 Good stats (Int, Dex, Con in that order) and can dump, or leave mediocre, Str, Wis, and Cha. I don't see any problems with a Dex-based fighter as they still need mediocre Str (10 at least), a good Constitution, and moderate Wisdom. And Escape Artist, Arcobatics, and Stealth are heavily relied upon to keep that character alive during combat.
And I really like 4E's answer to combat the issue and might consider using it for my v3.5/PF games.
I've always thought a more accurate representation of Dex based combat styles would be a feat or feat chain that gave you more attacks. Add in that these extra attacks do not benefit from precision damage of course.
Deft Strikes: Your skill allows you to attack at a frightening speed.
Prerequisites: Dex 15
Benefit: As part of a full attack you may make one extra attack per round at your full BAB. This allows an additional offhand attack at normal two-weapon fighting penalties. This additional attack does not benefit from precision based damage.
Improved Deft Strikes:
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Deft Strikes, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As part of a full attack you may make two extra attacks at your full BAB. This allows additional offhand attacks at normal two-weapon fighting penalties. These additional attacks do not benefit from precision based damage.
Might be a bit feat intensive but it's a rough idea.
By this logic, should there not be a feat that Str based characters can take to add their strength modifier to their AC instead of their dexterity?
By this logic, should there not be a feat that Str based characters can take to add their strength modifier to their AC instead of their dexterity?
Isn't that Armor Proficiency, Heavy? ;)
How about this as a feat:
"You may add the lesser of your Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers to damage instead of your Strength modifier"
Something like that is much more reasonable and I'd be more liable to agree with. If you can base your AC, to hit, damage, and a good portion of your skills off one stat...well something isn't even anymore.
How about this as a feat:
"You may add the lesser of your Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers to damage instead of your Strength modifier"
This would be pretty deadly for a melee alchemist brewing Dex mutagen.
Honestly, as a guy who pretty much always plays high dex characters, I see no problem with keeping "Improved Weapon Finesse" off the table. You could almost write STR right out of the game at that point, and have the athletic skills, armor proficiencies, and encumbrance based off of CON instead. Dexterity is far and away the most valuable ability, and I don't think it would break the game to cut down on, say, the initiative bonus it gives you, or make that based off of the higher between Intelligence and Wisdom instead. Isn't a perceptive or smart character more likely to act first?
How about a rule where certain ability scores can't be too far apart to reduce the amount of dumping that goes on? Like, how much sense does a 25 strength make with an 8 CON? Or a 30 INT and 10 WIS?
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Weapon finess hurts shield users, Which is huge early on. Str is needed for ac and mithral is very expensive.
Dex builds have tons of disadvantages for melee characters. Non fighters can't do anything at low lvls, and speed up slowly as they take feats to help their damage. Reflex is not a save of die save. Their will and fort will not improve from this. A20 str two hander is more disruptive to the game.
People should be complaining it's a trap if they are against it. I like it though.
Edit: anything past lvl 12 is not an issue, the game is very broken at that point. Also 3.5 stuff is also potentially broken. Melee need high damage to stay a threat at high lvls.
The agile weapon property allows you to use Dex instead of Str for a finesseable weapon.
I like the idea that each trinity of stats have to be within four of each other. 18 14 10, maybe give separate pools for each at chr creation though. 10 pts for physical and 10 for mental.
Edit, this does not stop dump stats :(
This is an excellent idea for physical stats. After all how many sickly (con 7) people you know that have the speed of a cheettah (Dex 16) and strength of an OX (STR 16).
However with mental stats I can see a genius (Int 18) who is socially retarded (Wis 10, Cha 8) or someone who is very insightful (wis 16) yet uneducated (Int 08) and ugly as sin (Cha 7).
I guess for PC Balance you would have to make them both have the stats withi9n 4 from each other.
Welcome to dumpstatting str instead of chr
How, instead?
As for the matter of Dex to damage (which Pathfinder now has as a weapon enhancement, by the way. I think it was in Ultimate Combat):
It is quite useful, that is true, but it can be balanced when you keep some things in mind:
First, make sure the feat doesn't allow you to get 1.5 times Dex to damage, ever. That is the first advantage Str will have.
Second, let there be no Dex equivalent to Power Attack. That removes another nice source of damage. You could, conceivably still get Power Attack, but you need Str 13 for that, and that's not a dumb stat.
Third, observe that most weapons that can be used with Dex are the smaller variety, meaning smaller damage dice (it's not much, but it's something).
And finally note that there is a feat investment here, something that is absent for those who go for Str.
Sure, there are character concepts that will jump on this new feat like a pouncing dropbear as they're already focussed mostly on Dex, but others will stick to their strength - they don't have much use for Dex, anyway.
I will concede the point that this will mean that certain borderline cases will now neglect Str when they otherwise would not have done so, but every change in rules will mean change in characters.
About dex as damage: this should be a precision damage, moltiplied on a critical hit (but, for example, undead are immune to it).
I don't really agree with this idea. I think is better creating some nice feats that should work on critical range or multiplier. New option for combat. This would be more interesting than a simple dex fighter that merely substitute str bonuses. The swashbuckler is an example.
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It's to much benefit for one stat. Damage, initiative, ac, and reflex saves from one would make it the end all be all for melee. The one advantage for strength would be the 1.5 from two handed fighting but beyond that there isn't much.
My only point against this is that is makes dual wielding fighters way too good. Remember that a DW fighter gets strength to main-hand, and has to take a feat to bump their off-hand from 1/2 strength to full strength. A Dual-wielding finesse kukri fighter could go with a 10 strength, use piranha strike instead of power attack, and put out 50% more damage than a falchion fighter.
One thing a lot of people miss on Dervish Dance is that to get the bonus, your off hand must be empty. This means that if you use it with dual-wielding, your offhand weapon must be something like armor spikes, gauntlets, or unarmed strike which does not get the damage bonus from dervish dance.
That said, I would have no problem to an improved weapon finesse feat that lets you add dex to damage for your main hand only. That is keeping in line with the Dervish Dance feat. Another valid option is that you get to add half-dex to both hands when Dual Wielding, and full dex to damage when you use a single weapon.
As long as you don't get full dex to both hands when dual wielding, it should be fairly balanced.
I like the idea that each trinity of stats have to be within four of each other. 18 14 10, maybe give separate pools for each at chr creation though. 10 pts for physical and 10 for mental.
Edit, this does not stop dump stats :(
This is an excellent idea for physical stats. After all how many sickly (con 7) people you know that have the speed of a cheettah (Dex 16) and strength of an OX (STR 16).
However with mental stats I can see a genius (Int 18) who is socially retarded (Wis 10, Cha 8) or someone who is very insightful (wis 16) yet uneducated (Int 08) and ugly as sin (Cha 7).
I guess for PC Balance you would have to make them both have the stats withi9n 4 from each other.
There are also issues on the physical side. It's completely feasible to have someone strong as an ox, as you say, but be clumsy. They exist in real life as well as well as in fiction. Likewise, it's possible to have someone very healthy and very agile but not that physically strong.
Overall, the idea of limiting any attributes within a certain range of one another, while great for perhaps reducing stat dumping slightly, comes off more as a way of reducing diversity.
To make it more balanced, make a feat that only applies to a single weapon like dervish dance(example; a rapier in one hand or a shortsword)or any finessable weapon as long it is in one hand. Dex to damage only gets unbalanced when you are using twf with a dumped str.
If one of my players wanted to do something like 'improved weapon finesse' it would definately be something along these lines. A single feat with similar prereqs to dervish dance (including single hand only) and thematically tied to the weapon of choice the way dervish dance is tied to the scimitar.
I am definately in the group that things dex to damage should be painful to keep strength relevant, but I dont want it to be impossible because there are plenty of character concepts that need something of the sort.
How're these?
Improved Weapon Finesse
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with a finessable weapon
Benefit: Choose a finessable weapon with which you have the Weapon Focus feat. You may add your Dex bonus to damage with this weapon when it is wielded in your main hand. This is precision-based damage. Any Str penalty to damage is still added normally. If this weapon is wielded in two hands, it still only gains 1x your Dex bonus.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. It applies to a different weapon each time.
Normal: You apply Str bonus to damage with a one-handed weapon, or 1.5x Str bonus to a two-handed weapon.Off-Hand Finesse
Prerequisites: Improved Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon fighting
Benefit: Choose a weapon with which you have Improved Weapon Finesse. You may add half your dex bonus to damage with this weapon when wielded in your off hand. This is precision-based damage. Any Str penalty to damage is still added normally.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. It applies to a different weapon each time.
Normal: You apply half your Str bonus to damage with a weapon in your off hand.
Then only problem I have with the second feat. You are forcing the use the same weapon in both hands. What if your offhand weapon is different from your mainhand weapon?
Weapon finess hurts shield users, Which is huge early on. Str is needed for ac and mithral is very expensive.
Dex builds have tons of disadvantages for melee characters. Non fighters can't do anything at low lvls, and speed up slowly as they take feats to help their damage. Reflex is not a save of die save. Their will and fort will not improve from this.
But Reflex is far and away the most common save, at least in my experience. Most AoE spells like Fireball, Grease, Create Pit, Web have a Reflex. Traps almost never require a will or Fort save; even poisoned traps will have to get through your reflex before you need to roll for Fort.
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As a player, I'd take this in a heart beat. This, coupled with piranha strike will make my elven magus rival strength based builds.
And this would be bad why? A magus can already get a nearly identical effect with dervish dance and a scimitar.
I find the arguments against 1.5x when two handing weak. Forcing the player to choose only one weapon might not be unreasonable, but is defiantly lacking in symmetry with weapon focus which does not require this effect.
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I'm going to be allowing a dex-for-damage feat in my next game, but with a few restrictions (the first two lifted from Dervish Dance):
1) It only works with a one-handed or light finessable weapon, and only if used in one hand.
2) It requires that your off-hand be empty, and that you're not wearing a shield or fighting with a second weapon (i.e. no two-weapon fighting of any form).
3) If you take the feat for unarmed strike, all hands must be free.
4) This ability can be applied to natural weapons, in which case you must have all hands free and cannot mix natural weapons with manufactured weapons (including unarmed strike), but can break the rule of "only one weapon."
5) Your strength penalty (if any) still applies.
6) This feat must be taken once for each weapon type you wish to use it for.
Basically the above has a few goals: Prevent ridiculous stacking of damage via TWFing, reduce defensive potential by removing the shield, and prevent dumping strength into the underdark by making your penalty apply. The inability to attack with two weapons or get a 1.5x multiplier are made up for with ridiculous defensive capability and reduced need to diversify stats.
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The counterpoint is that adding dex to damage is already avalable via Dervish Dance. Most weapons this applies to are not available for power attack so the player will still be behind in damage vs a str fighghter or archer.
Piranha Strike (Combat)Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but s not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
It work only on light weapons, not on all finessable weapons, but it give the equivalent of power attack.