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Here is a link to the Google Doc with a very basic outline of the idea.
Thoughts about why it is built the way it is built.
- I went with 3/4 BaB and Bard Spells known as a baseline. Since there is no spells per day limit, going above 6th level spells seemed risky. As listed the absolute best you could have active at 20th level would be a 6th and a 5th level spell, and in that case you could not move. Exploring full caster or full BaB variations could be interesting, but it seemed starting from the middle made the most sense.
- Similarly he is starting with the least skills and equipment as it seems more reasonable to discuss what to add than what to take away.
- In the same vein, no special abilities at this point. I think as written this is under powered, however it is also a casting class with no spell per day limit so I want to look at feedback on a baseline before expanding outware.
- The spell list is very preliminary and core only at this point. Discussing changes to spells, spells to add and spells to take away is really the nitty gritty of making a class like this work. Things like haste fit thematically, but what level do you put that at when you consider it can be functionally used all day (in exchange for not having access to casting other things at the time you are using it)
- I am also open to discussion of name and them. My concept is a psionic alternative that melds with existing rules regarding spell resistance and saves, but has an entirely different flavor and style when compared to existing classed.
So thoughts, comments, ideas?
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This class would be broken with almost any evocation spell as they wouldn't need to concentrate past casting it. This Mind Mage would be able to cast Chain Lightning all day, every round, time and again. With the right feats, he'd almost never have to do anything else in combat.
It is a very cool theme/idea, but I think it needs to be tailored. Some low-level evocation spells would be fine, up to about 3rd level or so, as they wouldn't do too much damage at higher levels. However, I would trade the higher level ones for othe spells (no immediate suggestions), and give them something else to compensate. Either a higher BAB, better saves or more skills/skill points.
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This class would be broken with almost any evocation spell as they wouldn't need to concentrate past casting it. This Mind Mage would be able to cast Chain Lightning all day, every round, time and again. With the right feats, he'd almost never have to do anything else in combat.
It is a very cool theme/idea, but I think it needs to be tailored. Some low-level evocation spells would be fine, up to about 3rd level or so, as they wouldn't do too much damage at higher levels. However, I would trade the higher level ones for othe spells (no immediate suggestions), and give them something else to compensate. Either a higher BAB, better saves or more skills/skill points.
I agree, which is why I left most of them off the list (I was on the fence with magic missile, and I left a few "underpowered" divine variations)
The spell list really is the key. Things like fly could be overpowered until you consider a) how late you get it with the progression and b) If you have it active, you are very limited in what else you can cast without falling.
The trade off is that you can't have lots of buffs up at a given time, but you can have some up at any time.
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In case it is generally unclear, an example or two of how I would conceive it working.
You are first level, you have 1.5 focus points.
If you have Mage Armor as one of your 2 1st level spells known, and have it "up", if you cast a cantrip you can't move because all of your focus is allocated.
Now at 2nd level you have 2 focus points, so you can maintain Mage Armor and cast another first level spell (but not move) or maintain Mage Armor and cast a cantrip, still keeping the .5 focus you need to move.
Now we get to higher levels. Let us say you are 7th level, and now you can cast fly. Awesome! But you only have 4.5 focus points, so if you have Fly "Up" you only have 1.5 focus points to work with to cast anything else. So you could have Fly and Mage armor up at the same time with .5 left to move...but that is pretty much all you can do.
The advantage over the standard caster is never running out of spells, the disadvantages are a more limited spell selection and not being able to have multiple buffs running.
Does it make sense?
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If you mean an enchanter wizard I think you missed the fact that there are no spells per day, just how much focus you have available to have which spells "up" at a given time.No, I follow that, but what does this class do?
This is a mildly interesting framework for spellcasting in general but it is not a class, so it's hard to offer feedback on it as a class.
I'm starting from the framework of the spellcasting, as if I can make that work this could be the basis for a number of variations.
My initial thought would be the elusive psionic without power points working off of existing magic so you don't need an entire different set of defenses, since they are all the same.
As to concepts that could work with this type of casting, you could have a controller who throws up walls and obstacles on a battlefield. You could have a self buff variation that throws up buffs without having to worry about burning them for they day in exchange for having less up at a time. You could have a trickster who charms and manipulates people for brief periods of time.
In other words I see a lot of play style applications, which is the goal I think of any good class/system.
The limitations and advantages of the way it works would seem to me to create an entirely different style of caster play, without outshining any existing casters.
I am being intentionally minimalist at this point as I flesh it out. I originally conceived of these as a series of "psychic" classes and variants each focusing on one of the "classic" tropes (Mind Control/Telekinetic/Pyrokinetic etc...) but at this point I would rather flesh out if the casting system can be made viable, and then if so brainstorm what new options it brings to the table.
I think if you can make an at will caster that isn't overpowered, it opens up a lot of options that a lot of people would want to play.
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So, if I am understanding this correctly, none of the spells have durations? Only cast it and concentrate on it to keep it active?
How would that affect something like Magic Miissile? Could you just keep doing the damage each round if you concentrated on it?
I'm afraid A Man in Black is right. This is a casting system, not really a class. If you want help with the casting system, I will try and work on it tonight when I get home from work to flesh out your spell list. Have you drawn from the APG or Ultimate Magic yet?
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So, if I am understanding this correctly, none of the spells have durations? Only cast it and concentrate on it to keep it active?
How would that affect something like Magic Miissile? Could you just keep doing the damage each round if you concentrated on it?
I'm afraid A Man in Black is right. This is a casting system, not really a class. If you want help with the casting system, I will try and work on it tonight when I get home from work to flesh out your spell list. Have you drawn from the APG or Ultimate Magic yet?
Spells with a duration of instantaneous are not able to be maintained and have to be cast each round.
Only spells that have a duration can be maintained.
So if I were to add magic missile, you could cast it an unlimited number of times a day, but each time you cast it you would have to have enough focus available and you would still need to expend the standard action.
I left it off the spell list, but I would be open to suggestions of how it could be included as force missiles seem thematically appropriate and I don't know that it is "that" overpowered.
Like I said, on the fence for that particular spell.
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If however I'm a blaster mage, I'd excel under this system. Who care's about keeping mage armor up, if I can cast lightning bolt at will?So, if I am understanding this correctly, none of the spells have durations? Only cast it and concentrate on it to keep it active?
How would that affect something like Magic Miissile? Could you just keep doing the damage each round if you concentrated on it?
I'm afraid A Man in Black is right. This is a casting system, not really a class. If you want help with the casting system, I will try and work on it tonight when I get home from work to flesh out your spell list. Have you drawn from the APG or Ultimate Magic yet?
Spells with a duration of instantaneous are not able to be maintained and have to be cast each round.
Only spells that have a duration can be maintained.
So if I were to add magic missile, you could cast it an unlimited number of times a day, but each time you cast it you would have to have enough focus available and you would still need to expend the standard action.
I left it off the spell list, but I would be open to suggestions of how it could be included as force missiles seem thematically appropriate and I don't know that it is "that" overpowered.
Like I said, on the fence for that particular spell.
Which is why it isn't on the spell list at the bottom.
Mabe you could use some cooldown system or increased focus costs or sth like that
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Mabe you could use some cooldown system or increased focus costs or sth like that
It isn't a bad idea, but I don't want to have too many moving parts and bookkeeping. At least not for the "base"
If another class spins off using the system with enhancements to allow for those things once the base is solid, sure.
But what I like about the concept is that it is simple. You have 11 focus points at 20th level, meaning you can only have so much up and running at a given time.
At best a 6th and a 5th (with variations below) so you always have to say "Do I want to keep that wall up, or do I want to do (X)"
I am fine with a limited spell list, as I think other spells that don't work in general would work well for this class.
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I propose the ULTIMATE TEST!!!!!!
Make this character and play it, then DM it. Please post your findings, as I will if I can get any of my guys to let me test it with/on them.
I would really appreciate it. It obviously needs a lot of work, but until it is playtested it is hard to say if the concept works at all and what needs to be tweaked (added or taken away)
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I would really appreciate it. It obviously needs a lot of work, but until it is playtested it is hard to say if the concept works at all and what needs to be tweaked (added or taken away)I propose the ULTIMATE TEST!!!!!!
Make this character and play it, then DM it. Please post your findings, as I will if I can get any of my guys to let me test it with/on them.
In this vein, I thought I would post an example 1st level.
Test Drive Ted (Elite Array 1st level gnome]
Str 8 (10-2 gnome)
Dex 14
Con 14 (12+
Int 11
Wis 8
Charisma 17 [15+2 gnome]
Hp 10
AC 13
Spells known
0- Know Direction, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close
1st - Mage armor, Produce flame
So basically Ted could have Mage Armor up most of the time, boosting him to 17, or he can have produce flame active at all times. Either way he can contribute, but he can't do both at the same time.
Not great, but he's first level and hopefully that gives an idea of the concept so people can make suggestions better understanding the concept.
I REALLY like this idea, and really think it would fit for a psionic system. Don't know really what else to say, but I'm going to watch this thread closely.
EDIT: A quickie though: I think many blasting spells would be okay, if the class involved some limitation on how metamagic works. Blasting isn't really strong right now, and I don't think infinite magic missiles for 3.5 damage at level one is anywhere near broken, especially if you can't do much else.
Even infinite chain lightning isn't that big of a deal if you're something of a squishie and can't have adequate magical protection up at the same time.
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I REALLY like this idea, and really think it would fit for a psionic system. Don't know really what else to say, but I'm going to watch this thread closely.
EDIT: A quickie though: I think many blasting spells would be okay, if the class involved some limitation on how metamagic works. Blasting isn't really strong right now, and I don't think infinite magic missiles for 3.5 damage at level one is anywhere near broken, especially if you can't do much else.
Even infinite chain lightning isn't that big of a deal if you're something of a squishie and can't have adequate magical protection up at the same time.
I think the class needs some offensive punch, but I think it will have to end up similar to the warlock mechanic rather than using most existing spells.
I am comfortable with things like call lightning and produce flame since they are already "activate and hold" kind of things, but I worry about the rest.
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I REALLY like this idea, and really think it would fit for a psionic system. Don't know really what else to say, but I'm going to watch this thread closely.
EDIT: A quickie though: I think many blasting spells would be okay, if the class involved some limitation on how metamagic works. Blasting isn't really strong right now, and I don't think infinite magic missiles for 3.5 damage at level one is anywhere near broken, especially if you can't do much else.
Even infinite chain lightning isn't that big of a deal if you're something of a squishie and can't have adequate magical protection up at the same time.
I was thinking about this on the way into work and had the idea of adding a "blast" that was 1d6 for every point of focus you devoted to it. Maybe make you choose an energy type at 1st and then be able to add different types every so many levels.
Thoughts?
I was thinking about this on the way into work and had the idea of adding a "blast" that was 1d6 for every point of focus you devoted to it. Maybe make you choose an energy type at 1st and then be able to add different types every so many levels.
Thoughts?
That's REALLY weak. As in, practically useless. At 10th level, you could do 21 average damage - and that's if you don't move and have no buffs at all.
I understand this isn't thought of as a blaster, but compare it to a wizard, who at that level puts out 52.5 with save or 42 with touch attack if he wants to as a standard action with all buffs up and is still considered quite suckish at it (yes, only a limited amount of times per day, but still).
At least use this as an excuse to revive the d12. 1d12 per focus point seems more in line if it's autohit, no save if you can get the ability to do area blasts of it and such.
It'd be much more fitting with, say, 1d6/level at touch range for 1 focus point, and then spend more focus points for different effects (improved range, status effects, area).
So at 10th level, you might have average of 35 damage at touch range with no buffs up, or maybe 28 damage at close range with mage armor up. It still wouldn't be near powerful.
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I was thinking about this on the way into work and had the idea of adding a "blast" that was 1d6 for every point of focus you devoted to it. Maybe make you choose an energy type at 1st and then be able to add different types every so many levels.
Thoughts?
That's REALLY weak. As in, practically useless. At 10th level, you could do 21 average damage - and that's if you don't move and have no buffs at all.
I understand this isn't thought of as a blaster, but compare it to a wizard, who at that level puts out 52.5 with save or 42 with touch attack if he wants to as a standard action with all buffs up and is still considered quite suckish at it (yes, only a limited amount of times per day, but still).
At least use this as an excuse to revive the d12. 1d12 per focus point seems more in line if it's autohit, no save if you can get the ability to do area blasts of it and such.
It'd be much more fitting with, say, 1d6/level at touch range for 1 focus point, and then spend more focus points for different effects (improved range, status effects, area).
So at 10th level, you might have average of 35 damage at touch range with no buffs up, or maybe 28 damage at close range with mage armor up. It still wouldn't be near powerful.
What if we made it something added to attack damage. If you focus you can embue each attack with the increased damage up to the amount of focus dedicated X d6
What if we made it something added to attack damage. If you focus you can embue each attack with the increased damage up to the amount of focus dedicated X d6
Yeah, that's far better - a bit like sneak attack. Whether it would be "good enough" depends completely on the rest of the class's setup.
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What if we made it something added to attack damage. If you focus you can embue each attack with the increased damage up to the amount of focus dedicated X d6Yeah, that's far better - a bit like sneak attack. Whether it would be "good enough" depends completely on the rest of the class's setup.
Writing it up more formally:
“At first level a Mind Mage is able to add energy damage to all attacks within 30 feet. The amount of damage added is equal to d6 times the amount of Damage Added. The Mind Mage may choose one energy type at 1st level and add the choice of an additional energy type every 4 levels, however only one type of energy can be used in any given attack.”
Any concerns or criticisms, as well as ideas for names for what to call this.
So basically you have the focus, you can use it to cast spells from the spell list or you can use it to add damage to attacks within 30 feet (to avoid sniper cheese)
What if we made it something added to attack damage. If you focus you can embue each attack with the increased damage up to the amount of focus dedicated X d6Yeah, that's far better - a bit like sneak attack. Whether it would be "good enough" depends completely on the rest of the class's setup.Writing it up more formally:
“At first level a Mind Mage is able to add energy damage to all attacks within 30 feet. The amount of damage added is equal to d6 times the amount of Damage Added. The Mind Mage may choose one energy type at 1st level and add the choice of an additional energy type every 4 levels, however only one type of energy can be used in any given attack.”
Any concerns or criticisms, as well as ideas for names for what to call this.
So basically you have the focus, you can use it to cast spells from the spell list or you can use it to add damage to attacks within 30 feet (to avoid sniper cheese)
It sounds a little odd when written that way - like you can use it to empower other people's attacks. Not necessarily a bad idea, but if that's the case perhaps it should be more explicit.
Also, if it only affects you, I think it should last the round out, not just for a single attack. I don't see an issue with larger range either, though maybe that might be overkill for sniping.
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What if we made it something added to attack damage. If you focus you can embue each attack with the increased damage up to the amount of focus dedicated X d6Yeah, that's far better - a bit like sneak attack. Whether it would be "good enough" depends completely on the rest of the class's setup.Writing it up more formally:
“At first level a Mind Mage is able to add energy damage to all attacks within 30 feet. The amount of damage added is equal to d6 times the amount of Damage Added. The Mind Mage may choose one energy type at 1st level and add the choice of an additional energy type every 4 levels, however only one type of energy can be used in any given attack.”
Any concerns or criticisms, as well as ideas for names for what to call this.
So basically you have the focus, you can use it to cast spells from the spell list or you can use it to add damage to attacks within 30 feet (to avoid sniper cheese)
It sounds a little odd when written that way - like you can use it to empower other people's attacks. Not necessarily a bad idea, but if that's the case perhaps it should be more explicit.
Also, if it only affects you, I think it should last the round out, not just for a single attack. I don't see an issue with larger range either, though maybe that might be overkill for sniping.
Take 2
“As a swift action at first level a Mind Mage is able to add energy damage to any melee they make or to a single ranged attack that occurs within 30 feet by converting focus points into energy. The amount of damage added is equal to d6 times the amount of Focus converted. The focus converted remains unavailable to the Mind Mage until the beginning of their next turn.
The Mind Mage chooses one energy type at 1st level, but learns additional energy type options every 4 levels. Only one type of energy can be used in any given attack.”
I was also thinking of being able to allocate focus points to increase attack bonuses.
So now our first level gnome can have mage armor up, or produce flame, or to add 1d6 damage to a single ranged attack within 30 feet or to a melee attack.
Yes this further nerfs the ranged attacks, but I think that is needed or why would you ever use it for melee over ranged attacks?
but I think that is needed or why would you ever use it for melee over ranged attacks?
Because melee attacks are less feat-intensive if going single-weapon, and can often deal more damage. But yeah, seems like a fair limitation. I think a character will play out a bit like a melee bard, self-buffing mixed with a little debuffs and then add on the damage.
I do think that the amount of focus points could be increased though, or perhaps provide a feat that increases it. Or something like "Add your charisma modifier or your level, whichever is less, to the number of focus points you have".
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but I think that is needed or why would you ever use it for melee over ranged attacks?Because melee attacks are less feat-intensive if going single-weapon, and can often deal more damage. But yeah, seems like a fair limitation. I think a character will play out a bit like a melee bard, self-buffing mixed with a little debuffs and then add on the damage.
I do think that the amount of focus points could be increased though, or perhaps provide a feat that increases it. Or something like "Add your charisma modifier or your level, whichever is less, to the number of focus points you have".
I think if you add more focus points you risk throwing off the balance of the class, at least for a ¾ BaB d8 version.
Maybe you could have a version with more points in trade off for lower BaB and hitpoints (and vice versa a version with less points in trade off for higher BaB and Hit Points)
But at this point I want to try and stay focused on making a viable version of this concept before we see how it expands out.
At this point at 1st you have enough focus to either add damage or have a single 1st level spell active. Seems ok.
2nd you can either have two first levels up and not move, 1st level and 1 damage and not move, or a 1st level and a cantrip while moving. Seems ok.
3rd you can have two up, 1 up and one damage.
4th You get 2nd level spell, but if you have it up you can’t cast anything but a cantrip if you also want to be able to move.
5th you can have a 2nd level and a 1st level up or 3 first levels up, or a first and +2d6 Damage…etc…
That seems like a reasonable progression, and adding a focus could throw it off. Particularly if you take it as a level dip class.
What I like about the class is that it fits in well with what is existing, but is a completely different strategic way of thinking about playing since you have so many options at any given time, without having to worry about burning spells or having a GM fear you going Nova.
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In an effort to get more discussion, a few questions.
1. Looking at the spell list, are there spells that should be removed, added, modified.
2. What problems could come with multiclassing or synergies that would need to be addressed.
3. What changes should be made to the weapon list, if any. Is the armor penalty to much/not enough.
4. Is the change of giving an energy blast acceptable in lieu of most of the standard blaster spells.
I really think there is an interest in an at will casting system that can run parallel to the existing casting system. This is my hat into the ring.
In an effort to get more discussion, a few questions.
1. Looking at the spell list, are there spells that should be removed, added, modified.
2. What problems could come with multiclassing or synergies that would need to be addressed.
3. What changes should be made to the weapon list, if any. Is the armor penalty to much/not enough.
4. Is the change of giving an energy blast acceptable in lieu of most of the standard blaster spells.
I really think there is an interest in an at will casting system that can run parallel to the existing casting system. This is my hat into the ring.
1. I think it could be broadened up by quite a bit, as I still think a lot of blasts are okay. Maybe something along the lines of sorcerer bloodlines or cleric domains, though - so you pick a theme and stick with it.
2. It's a good dip class for martials that want to do a little magic. Some people consider a 1 dip in sorcerer for shield/enlarge person and so on - this allows them to do it the whole day instead of just a few times, and has better hit dice (yaaay). However, dipping in sorcerer still gives wider ability to use spell trigger items and more cantrips, so it's a fair deal. Other than that I don't see how anyone could break the game with a dip in this, and not breaking this class by dipping in anything else either.
3. All simple weapons and light armor prof should be given to a 3/4 class, at least. The penalty to focus points is maybe a little too high at many levels, seeing as how this class will have to go into melee on a regular basis without having the ability to keep five hundred buffs up.
4. Yes, very much, though it should have the ability to make actual blasts - not only improve attacks. Basing it of the warlock is IMO the best idea.
Also, the class needs more stuff, though I'm sure you're aware of that. The casting system is interesting, but the class itself is pretty boring, kinda like a bard without class features.
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1. I think it could be broadened up by quite a bit, as I still think a lot of blasts are okay. Maybe something along the lines of sorcerer bloodlines or cleric domains, though - so you pick a theme and stick with it.2. It's a good dip class for martials that want to do a little magic. Some people consider a 1 dip in sorcerer for shield/enlarge person and so on - this allows them to do it the whole day instead of just a few times, and has better hit dice (yaaay). However, dipping in sorcerer still gives wider ability to use spell trigger items and more cantrips, so it's a fair deal. Other than that I don't see how anyone could break the game with a dip in this, and not breaking this class by dipping in anything else either.
3. All simple weapons and light armor prof should be given to a 3/4 class, at least. The penalty to focus points is maybe a little too high at many levels, seeing as how this class will have to go into melee on a regular basis without having the ability to keep five hundred buffs up.
4. Yes, very much, though it should have the ability to make actual blasts - not only improve attacks. Basing it of the warlock is IMO the best idea.
Also, the class needs more stuff, though I'm sure you're aware of that. The casting system is interesting, but the class itself is pretty boring, kinda like a bard without class features.
1. I really like the bloodline idea. Maybe something along the lines of classic psychic tropes like “Pyrotechnic”, “Telekinetic”, etc…I’d have to put some thought into that, but I would love ideas for types and what spells to include at each level as bonus spells.
Or even better if anyone is ambitious an outline.
2. I agree, as the armor restriction pretty much negates anyone but a monk getting much out of it at all. This was the goal, so that is good.
3. I think you are correct about at least simple weapons. When I get home I will make that change to the Google doc.
Maybe as a compromise on the armor we can have a feat that reduces the focus penalty by .5, basically making wearing light armor the same as having a cantrip active.
I disagree about the lack of focus points, as I think the trade off is versatility and always having all your spells available.
I did have an idea for another ability, maybe added at 5rd level based loosely off of Divine Bond.
“Focused Weapon: At 5th level as a standard action you may add a weapon enhancement bonus equal to the amount of focus dedicated to the weapon. The weapon must be masterwork in order to add any enhancement. These bonuses can be added to a weapon that already possessed, however the total enhancement of the weapon cannot exceed the amount of focus dedicated to it. For example making a +1 weapon into a +2 weapon would require 2 focus points. In subsequent rounds this enhancement can be maintained by holding focus, but changing the enhancement requires a standard action.”
I may also have a later feature that allows you to add weapon properties, but I need to think about that. Maybe something to discuss here.
4. I am ok with the blasting mechanism of the warlock, but I kind of feel like that should be a spell rather than a special ability.
Thanks again for your feedback.
1)I second the idea for thematic schools/bloodlines/domains that you get to pick one of for additional spells.
2)I'd drop the focus penalty of all armors down by 1 point, so then light armor casting is possible, or create a feat or feat chain that could reduce the penalties. Edit; Took too long typing this up and your previous post got up, 0.5 a point could be a good balance, this basically means at first level you have 1 point to work with, which could be a single cantrip and move or a first level spell.
3)I would probably also allow magic missiles, as it is a casting staple and not overly strong, but that's just personal preference. (I'd actually open up the spell list a lot by say allowing all wizard/sorcerer spells to be chosen except evocation, perhaps with some other specific-case bans)
4)You may wish to consider how metamagic will interact with this class, by 20th level you can cast (if you're willing to give up everything else) a 6th level spell augmented with 5 levels of metamagic, personally I like that idea though some might see it as overpowered, in any case perhaps some of the dead levels could grant a bonus metamagic feat. (say 1 per 4 or 5 levels)?
5)Some sort of bonus focus/spells known/something for high casting stat, literally most every casting class gets benefits for having a high stat, maybe something like 1/2 or 1/4 of your stat modifier gets converted into a seperate focus pool which you'll end up using for buffs? I'm not great at coming up with something like that but it'd certainly be interesting.
6) Great job coming up with this system of casting, I really want to see where this class gets taken, and i'll keep coming back for more feedback as long as it gets updated!
About "domains" (I don't know of a better word right now so I'll use it:
They should probably grant an extra, specific spell known. While the class has the benefit of all spells accessible at all times, it knows very few for a class that relies on spellcasting.
A good idea is to make the domain spells circumstantial, since due to the limited amount of spells known, ALL spells picked will have to be stuff that matters often. It's like the case of sorcerers, just even more limited.
On levels 8 and 15 a new attack is gained, at 4, 8, 12 and 16 a new elemental type is gained, at 4, 7, 10, 13 and 16 a new spell level is gained. Thus the dead levels are 1-3, 5-6, 9, 11, 14, and 17-20.
I'll take a stab at a domain here:
Medium
The medium can speak to the spirits of the dead, and gain aid from them.
Skilled: A medium adds knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (religion) to his class skill list.
Spells gained (at level): Ghost Sound (1), Detect Undead (2), Command Undead (5), Speak with Dead (8), Divination (11), Lesser Astral Projection (14), Legend Lore (17)
Spirit Talk: As a 1-minute ritual, the medium can gain contact the spirits of a certain place. This ability only works where people has lived and died, such as in a city building or a dungeon, and cannot grant information about an area fur. When this ability is used, the medium can gain a +5 bonus on a knowledge check related to the place where he is. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + his charisma modifier. At 5th level and every four levels beyond that, the bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +9 at level 19.
Mind Bond: At 3rd level, a medium can create a limited telepathic bond with living or undead creatures. This mimics the message spell cast by a sorcerer of your level, except that affected creatures need only think the message to be sent, and not whisper it. In addition, it is not affected by magical silence. This ability can be used once per day plus once more per three levels above 3rd, but you may not have more than one active at a time.
*Insert ability at level 9*
*Insert capstone*
(I'm really bad at high-level stuff so I'll leave that to those who are good).
Another idea is for all of the damage bonuses to carry rider effects.
Fire: Catch on fire unless successful save, DC set by focus points.
Acid: Damage over time, based on focus points.
Electric: Stunned for one round unless successful save, DC set by focus points.
Cold: Additional subdual damage, amount based on focus points.
Thus, even if the damage isn't that great, it can get an extra edge from the rider effects.
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How about this
Psychic Focus:
At 4th level a Mind Mage selects a Psychic Focus area from which the Mind Mage can harness a reserve of power. A number of times a day equal to the Mind Mage’s Charisma modifier a Mind Mage can cast a spell from his Psychic Focus list without allocating focus. This spell is cast as per the rules of the spell, with duration dependent on the spell and not on allocated focus. These spells are generally one level lower than the highest level a Mind Mage is able to cast.
Pyrokinetic Focus
4st – Burning Hands
7th – Produce Flame
10th- Fireball
13th- Wall of Fire
16tt -Fire Shield
19th- Fire Seeds
Spirit Focus
4st – Deathwatch
7th – Gentle Repose
10th- Speak with Dead
13th- Death Ward
16tt – Slay Living
19th- Undeath to Death
Weather Focus
4st – Obscuring Mist
7th – Fog Cloud
10th- Call Lightning
13th- Sleet Storm
16tt – Ice Storm
19th- Control Winds
I am open to more options, I didn’t include any special abilities at this point, because I think having this on top of at will casting is pretty powerful in and of itself. Yes the levels you get these is fairly late, but when you consider how many times a day you would get these and the fact that they would stack on top of focus I don’t know that you need them
Nice update, on a cursory look seems good, you did neglect the update to weapon proficiency from earlier in the thread however. Other than that the focused weapon ability could use come cleaned up text, at least directly reference somewhere that it need not be a flat +x enhancement bonus added, but also special qualities such as flaming and etc.
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Nice update, on a cursory look seems good, you did neglect the update to weapon proficiency from earlier in the thread however. Other than that the focused weapon ability could use come cleaned up text, at least directly reference somewhere that it need not be a flat +x enhancement bonus added, but also special qualities such as flaming and etc.
Added Simple, I need to think about what enhancements to allow and not allow.
Open to suggestion.
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Another idea is for all of the damage bonuses to carry rider effects.
Fire: Catch on fire unless successful save, DC set by focus points.
Acid: Damage over time, based on focus points.
Electric: Stunned for one round unless successful save, DC set by focus points.
Cold: Additional subdual damage, amount based on focus points.Thus, even if the damage isn't that great, it can get an extra edge from the rider effects.
I don't think damage is going to be an issue, and I am more worried about overpowering at will powers at this point as it isn't really supposed to be a blaster class.
I hear you, I am just not sure that is a problem given how much else the class could do asside from blasting and the need to not let the blasting get to strong in order to keep balance with the at will nature.
Nice update, on a cursory look seems good, you did neglect the update to weapon proficiency from earlier in the thread however. Other than that the focused weapon ability could use come cleaned up text, at least directly reference somewhere that it need not be a flat +x enhancement bonus added, but also special qualities such as flaming and etc.Added Simple, I need to think about what enhancements to allow and not allow.
Open to suggestion.
Well I would think it obvious to allow the matching elemental enhancement to weapons as their Energy Focus types allow. It'd be difficult to make an exhaustive list but some options I see on the SRD are;
Spell Storing & Conductive (/very/ interesting when used with this class)Keen
Merciful
Vicious
(An alignment effect based on caster's alignment, anarchic, axiomatic, holy, unholy)
(after a certain level, the burst forms of elemental energies)
Seeking
Speed
Brilliant Energy
Adaptable (a favorite for dexterity builds)
Actually, now that I think of it, the elemental energies might not be a good weapon special ability to give, seeing as you were trying to limit the bonus elemental damage from Energy Focus to mainly melee attacks, not ranged, and that would allow a ranged Mind Mage to bypass that in a way. But I'll leave that to your judgment. Personally I'd allow the burst forms after a certain level, but drop the normal ones and just let them use Energy Focus if they want elemental damage that badly.
Also, the weapon focus ability makes this a very interesting class to play when you think of the WBL, if you are mainly being a weapon-based attacker & are enhancing your weapon with this ability, it's more beneficial to spend the 300-400 for just a masterwork weapon which you enchant whenever you attack with it then it is to buy successively better weapons as you level, as this line "the total enhancement of the weapon cannot exceed the amount of focus dedicated to it", limits the weapon's effective bonus, and makes investing money on other gear more beneficial overall.
I would make a suggestion for a summon focus school aswell, following the summoner spell list it would look something like;
4th; Summon Monster 1
7th; Summon Monster 2
10th; Summon Monster 4
13th; Summon Monster 5
16th; Summon Monster 7
19th; Summon Monster 8
(a tiny nit-picky thing with the current document, under focus's you have 4th written as 4st. :P, just letting you know as it annoys the little OCD demon inside me)
Really like the Psychic Focus, except for the name - having an ability named Focus, that doesn't have anything to do with Focus points, might cause some confusion. Otherwise, it's simple, neat, and good.
I don't think damage is going to be an issue, and I am more worried about overpowering at will powers at this point as it isn't really supposed to be a blaster class.
I understand that it's important to restrict it somewhat, but I don't see the issue really in-combat as much as out of combat.
Take 10th level, for example. We'll assume at 10th level, most combat-relevant spells will be of 2nd level and higher. If we also assume 5 combats per day, each lasting 4 rounds (or vice versa, either way, it's counting a bit high, thus in favor of this class), we'll have 20 rounds of combat.
At 10th level, the mind mage knows 35 spell levels of spells, 11 of which are combat relevant, and can cast combat-relevant spells all day long, if he keeps his buffs down a bit.
At 10th level, a sorcerer knows 41 spell levels of spells, 13 of which are combat relevant, and can cast 26 (assuming 22 cha) combat relevant spells per day.
During most days, the sorcerer will have enough and more than that of the spells he can cast. If we just count 4th level and above spells, the mind mage has access to two while the sorcerer has access to three, the mind mage can cast them all day long but has to keep his buffs down by A LOT (no flying, for example), and the sorcerer can cast them 10 times per day - four of which are higher level.
Yes, there's the matter of 3/4 BAB, but as you said, this class isn't thought as a primary damage dealer and has just a limited amount of buffs, which means he has to rely on spells anyway.
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Really like the Psychic Focus, except for the name - having an ability named Focus, that doesn't have anything to do with Focus points, might cause some confusion. Otherwise, it's simple, neat, and good.
I don't think damage is going to be an issue, and I am more worried about overpowering at will powers at this point as it isn't really supposed to be a blaster class.I understand that it's important to restrict it somewhat, but I don't see the issue really in-combat as much as out of combat.
Take 10th level, for example. We'll assume at 10th level, most combat-relevant spells will be of 2nd level and higher. If we also assume 5 combats per day, each lasting 4 rounds (or vice versa, either way, it's counting a bit high, thus in favor of this class), we'll have 20 rounds of combat.
At 10th level, the mind mage knows 35 spell levels of spells, 11 of which are combat relevant, and can cast combat-relevant spells all day long, if he keeps his buffs down a bit.
At 10th level, a sorcerer knows 41 spell levels of spells, 13 of which are combat relevant, and can cast 26 (assuming 22 cha) combat relevant spells per day.
During most days, the sorcerer will have enough and more than that of the spells he can cast. If we just count 4th level and above spells, the mind mage has access to two while the sorcerer has access to three, the mind mage can cast them all day long but has to keep his buffs down by A LOT (no flying, for example), and the sorcerer can cast them 10 times per day - four of which are higher level.
Yes, there's the matter of 3/4 BAB, but as you said, this class isn't thought as a primary damage dealer and has just a limited amount of buffs, which means he has to rely on spells anyway.
Let’s look at a 10th level Mind Mage
Your ¾ BaB so you are doing +7/+2 and you have an enough hit points to wade in.
Let us assume we have the proposed feat that makes light armor a .5 penalty to focus instead of 1.
You have 6 focus points, which you can use to enhance a weapon up to +5 if you want to dive into combat. Or you can add 5d6 damage to any attack within 30 feat, same as a rogue of the same level only not requiring flanking.
So we have a ¾ class wearing light armor doing as much damage than a rogue sneak attacking before we talk about any spells you can cast.
And on top of that, if you don’t want to wade in, you just got access to 4th level spells you can cast all day and still have a focus point left to add 1d6 damage or even just hold open a 1st level spell.
Then we throw on the domains, and you could have Fireball, hostile levitation, force punch…
Now the counter is the lack of feats (particularly since we burned one for armor) and lack of skills, but what is above isn’t hurting for damage in my opinion.
I just don’t think lack of damage dealing will be a problem when you compare it to other classes in the same skill set. Comparing to a sorcerer isn’t he comparison, since a sorcerer isn’t ¾ bab with d8. A sorcerer can’t wade in.
What I like about this class is that it can wade in, or it can hang back and blast, or it can do battlefield control, or it can throw up SoD spells.
But in order for it to be balanced, if it is that versatile it needs to not outshine the other classes in any one area.
I’ll fix the typos for pointed out upthread when I get home tonight, but I really don’t think it needs more specific offense “at will”. I’m fine with it showing up in domains where appropriate, but it is ¾ BaB 6 level caster class, so damage should fall into that scale.
I don't want to discourage feedback, because your suggestions have been really helpful, but I don't think there needs to be any additional damage boost at this point.
Let’s look at a 10th level Mind Mage
Your ¾ BaB so you are doing +7/+2 and you have an enough hit points to wade in.
Let us assume we have the proposed feat that makes light armor a .5 penalty to focus instead of 1.
You have 6 focus points, which you can use to enhance a weapon up to +5 if you want to dive into combat. Or you can add 5d6 damage to any attack within 30 feat, same as a rogue of the same level only not requiring flanking.
So we have a ¾ class wearing light armor doing as much damage than a rogue sneak attacking before we talk about any spells you can cast.
A rogue has had 5 talents by then to increase his damage output, and is also less MAD (even if you focus on melee, I assume you have to have a cha = 10+level to cast a spell).
You're going to have a DPR far lower than a rogue (by at least 10-15% I imagine) and rogues already have large issues dealing damage.
Yes, there's more other stuff you can do, so you're more versatile - but casting infinite amounts of anything doesn't do that much for versatility, rather it's great if you focus on just a few things.
It would be interesting to see an actual melee mind mage build, I think I'll do one (by the DPR olympics standards). You may be right, but I don't think he'll do relevant damage.
I think the mind mage might be great out of combat, especially in situations where you have a time limit, but in combat he's so/so.
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I think the mind mage might be great out of combat, especially in situations where you have a time limit, but in combat he's so/so.
And I'm kind of ok with that, but like you said I think creating a few is the way to go to really see how a built one looks. I may try tomorrow night, but the newborn has me wrapped around her finger at the moment.
x9ss I like the idea of tying the enhancement to the type of focus (for lack of a better name, stingburka is right about needing to change that...) and when the baby gives me some thinking time I'll try to match types to powers.
As to the summon, I like the domain ok, but I would only run it summon 1-6
Trying a melee mind mage now, focused on Energy Focus. I'll make it at level 5 and 10, and try to use the DPR olympics limitations. Note that I'm not good at optimizing, but I'm not that bad, so this should give a hunch as to how well most "regular" people who try to optimize a bit would do.
Base ability scores: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13
Marcus the Human Mind-Mage lvl5:
Ability Scores:
STR: 14 (+2) (14 base)
DEX: 18 (+4) (15 base, +1 level, +2 race)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 8 (0)
WIS: 10 (0)
CHA: 13 (+1) (13 base)
HP: 31 HP (5d8+5)
Saving Throws
Fort: +2 Ref: +5 Will: +4
AC: 19 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 15 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +4 dex)
Attacks:
Dagger +9 (1d4+2d6+3)
2 daggers +7/+7 (1d4+3d6+3/1d4+3d6+2)
DPR full attack vs. CR5:
0.5 * 16 + 0.1 * 0.5 * 4.5 +
0.5 * 15 + 0.1 * 0.5 * 3.5 = 15.9
It takes an average of 4 turns to sink a CR5 opponent. Thought about power attack instead of weapon focus, gives less damage.
Special Attacks:
Focus up to +3d6 when not moving, +2d6 when moving
Class Abilities:
Elemental Focus (Acid, Cold)
Mind Focus 1/day (Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion; DC 12-13)
BAB: +3 CMB: +5 CMD: 19
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two-weapon fighting
Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Mind-Mage Armor Training
Techniques known: Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Spider Climb; Jump, Charm Animals, Comprehend Languages, Grease. DC is 11+level.
As the offensive options for techniques were very limited, I picked circumstantial stuff that can be useful out of combat. I'm thinking this guy plays kinda "jedi", which is nice. Activating any of those in combat though, means his damage is through the floor
Skills:
Use Magic Device +10
Acrobatics +9
Gear:
2 +1 daggers
+1 chain shirt
Some random stuff
Marcus the Human Mind Mage lvl 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 16 (+2) (14 base +2 belt)
DEX: 20 (+4) (15 base, +1 level, +2 race +2 belt)
CON: 14 (+1) (12 base +2 belt)
INT: 8 (0)
WIS: 10 (0)
CHA: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 headband)
HP: 68 HP (10d8+20)
Saving Throws
Fort: +5 Ref: +8 Will: +7
AC: 21 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 16 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +5 dex, +1 ring)
Attacks:
Dagger +12 (1d4+5d6+9)
2 daggers +10/+5/+10/+5 (1d4+5d6+5/1d4+5d6+3)
DPR full attack vs. CR10:
0.55 * 25 + 0.1 * 0.55 * 7.5 +
0.55 * 23 + 0.1 * 0.55 * 5.5 = 27.11500
This is useless. I don't know if I've counted something wrong, but this is just hideously low.
Special Attacks:
Focus up to +5d6
Class Abilities:
Elemental Focus (Acid, Cold, Fire)
Mind Focus 3/day (Charm Person DC12, Detect Thoughts DC13, Suggestion DC14)
BAB: +7 CMB: +10 CMD: 26
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two-weapon fighting
Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Improved Initiative
Mind-Mage Armor Training
Improved two-weapon fighting
Techniques known: Freedom of Movement, Lesser Hallucinatory Terrain; Arcane Sight, Helping Hand, Fly, Protection from Energy; Calm Emotions, Augury, Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Spider Climb; Jump, Charm Animals, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Feather Fall, Ventriloquism. DC is 13+level.
Skills:
Use Magic Device +7
Spellcraft +7
Gear:
belt of physical perfection +2
headband of cha +2
+1 chain shirt
ring of protection
2 +2 daggers
I handwaved equipment in both cases, but think they should be about in line with that level.
Damage at level 5 is barely okay. At level 10 it's far too low. I don't know if I've missed something important though.
EDIT: I noticed wall of stone is on the list, you might want to look at that spell's duration and rethink it ;) It's in a whole other league than the other spells.
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Trying a melee mind mage now, focused on Energy Focus. I'll make it at level 5 and 10, and try to use the DPR olympics limitations. Note that I'm not good at optimizing, but I'm not that bad, so this should give a hunch as to how well most "regular" people who try to optimize a bit would do.
Base ability scores: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13
Marcus the Human Mi.nd-Mage lvl5:
** spoiler omitted **Marcus the Human Mind Mage lvl 10
** spoiler omitted **...
Wall of stone I would keep with the caveat that the wall isn't made permanent, but only exists for as long as you concentrate. I may add an "Earth" focus that gives the regular variation. That may need to be added in the spell information, something like "Anything produced only lasts for the duration of focus".
As to the builds, since they are mind focus that makes them less ideal for damage. Also dagger with the build you have for the 10th would be higher
7 (bab) +5 (from dex+weapon finesse)+1 weapon focus, +2 weapon is 15 not 12.
That being said, I think I may want to look at adding some of the buff spells, I was a bit hesitant before but I think they could be fine when you consider the limited duration and what you lose diverting focus.
Thanks. Anyone else?
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Also if i didn't mention this earlier, if any real developers want to "steal" the basic idea and put it in a real form, by all mean do so. I know this is not my field of expertise, but I would love to have a class like this exist.
Let me throw up a “Melee” Mind Mage, Test Drive Todd
Human Mind Mage 10
Str 20 (15+1 4th +2 Racial +2 Belt)
Dex 14 (12+2 belt)
Con 16 (13+1 8th +2 Belt)
Wis 8
Int 10
Cha 18 (16+2 Headband)
HP: 87
AC: 23
Fort: 9 Ref: 8 Will: 9
BaB: +7/+2
Masterwork Falchion (+14/+9 for 2d4 +7 damage normal, add up to 5d6 Damage. With 5 focus increases to +18/+13 for 2d4 + 13 damage. With +5 focus. Power Attack increases this to 2d4+ 19 damage with attack at +18 (furious focus)/+11)
Feats
1st Martial Weapon Proficiency (Falchion)
Human Mind Mage Armor feat (Human)
3rd Power Attack
5th Weapon Focus (Falchion)
7th Toughness
9th Furious Focus
Equip (62,000): Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000), Headband of Charisma +2(4,000), Masterwork Falcion (375), +3 Chain Shirt (9,000), Ring of protection +2, Amulet of Natural armor +2 (8,000), Cloak of Resistance +3,
6 Focus points
Telekinetic Focus (Floating Disk, Levitate, Hostile Levitation) 4 times a day.
Spells known:
(0) Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Know Direction, Mage hand, Message, Open/Close
(1) Comprehend Languages, Feather Fall, Longstrider, Grease, Jump
(2) Spider Climb, Levitate, Barkskin, Protection from Arrows, See Invisability
(3) Darkvision, Fly, Helping Hand, Protection from Energy, Glibness
(4) Wall of Ice, Globe of Invulnerability.
Before we even look at spells at this point for this build, I feel like damage is very solid. That and in order to do this damage he can’t be casting anything else (unless he adjusts the damage up or down) Next level when he takes improved critical it will be downright deadly.
A big boost comes from savings on the weapons which can go to armor/belts. If you need to switch weapons for damage, the bonuses can apply to any masterwork weapon they want. A huge benefit as even with everything on him currently he has more than 7k to spend.
Not going to out damage a Barb or a Fighter, but they shouldn’t in the same way they shouldn’t out cast a Wizard or Sorcerer. I have an 18 Charisma, which is solid for casting and gives me four uses a day of my “extra” spells.
I am actually fairly pleased at this point, as it seems to walk the line of effective without being overpowering. I would love playing this character at 10th level.
What I would like is to see if people can find the loopholes (like Stringburka did with Wall of Stone, good catch) and make sure to close exploits. Also looking for other spells to discuss including, perhaps.
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Because the last one was fun, “Melee” Mind Mage, Wee Willie the Whipmaster
Halfling Mind Mage 10
Str 10 (12-2 Racial)
Dex 22 (12+4 belt)
Con 14 (13+1)
Wis 8
Int 10
Cha 18 (16+2 Racial)
HP: 67
AC: 25
Fort: 10 Ref: 9 Will: 10
BaB: +7/+2
Masterwork Whip (+17/+12 add up to 5d6 Damage.)
Feats
1st Weapon Finesse
3rd Mind Mage Armor feat (Human)
5td Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
7th Weapon Focus (Whip)
9th Whip Mastery
Equip (62,000): Belt of Dexterity (Dex +4) (16,000), Headband of Charisma +2(4,000), +2 Whip (4000), +3 Chain Shirt (9,000), Ring of protection +2, Amulet of Natural armor +2 (8,000), Cloak of Resistance +3,
6 Focus points
Telekinetic Focus (Floating Disk, Levitate, Hostile Levitation) 4 times a day.
Spells known:
(0) Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Know Direction, Mage hand, Message, Open/Close
(1) Comprehend Languages, Feather Fall, Longstrider, Grease, Jump
(2) Spider Climb, Levitate, Barkskin, Protection from Arrows, See Invisibility
(3) Darkvision, Fly, Helping Hand, Protection from Energy, Glibness
(4) Wall of Ice, Globe of Invulnerability.
Big change is the whip, which I spent the money to upgrade. Wee Willie doesn’t need to get in the mix to be effective, so less hit points but better AC.
Not as much damage, but from 15 feet away he doesn’t need as much. Better saves, Add in sling as your back up weapon and you are in good shape.
Kept everything else the same, more or less. I was thinking about the TWF Stringburka build above and I don’t think it will work because you still need a free hand to cast. I actually kind of like that as a limiting factor as I don’t want to outshine the rogue TWF in melee.