So, I've got a question I was hoping someone might be able to help with. It seems to me that Jade Regent makes the assumption that characters are not from Minkai, or Tien-Xia in general. The campaign traits mostly assume you're native to Varisia, or you have been for many years. Playing a character who was born in Minkai and lived there for near 28 years (his reasons for leaving are his own), I find it hard to reconcile the fact that he's not proficient with any of the "exotic" Eastern Weapons that the Eastern-flavored classes (samurai and ninja) are proficient with.
My GM agrees this is strange as well. One solution we thought of would be to "flip" the proficiencies- my character would regard many Eastern weapons as martial and, in exchange, regard many Western weapons as Exotic. However, this hardly seems like a downside- the wakazashi is just a better short sword than the short sword, because it has a weapon property and a higher critical threat range. But asking for an exception on katana and wakazashi proficiencies just feels like cheating.
My question is this: Can anybody think of a good system that would allow my character to gain proficiency with weapons that he in all right should be proficient with?
My reasoning on why he should be proficient are put in these spoiler tags, to save room and to spare those who don't feel like reading it.
The katana and wakazashi are weapons that would be quite prolific in the Minkai Empire. Now, although my swordsman is not a member of the noble caste and as such does not have a daisho, this is not a reason he would not have practice with katana and wakazashi. If we take the Minkai Empire as Edo Japan- that is, the period of Japan which we most often think of when we think "Feudal Japan." This was the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and is the period in which most "samurai dramas"- tales of wandering swordsmen- are set. This is no doubt due to the cultural influence of Miyamoto Musashi, the legendary swordsman who lived during the Edo period.
In Edo, or the popular perception of Edo, swords were worn openly and there were many schools of sword-combat. This means that your average swordsman would probably begin his career with the Japanese long sword, the katana. Musashi, for instance, was a master of the Hyogo niten-ichii koryu, or "Hyogo Two Heavens as One Old School," which taught that a master swordsman is one who can wield a wakazashi and katana at the same time.
Alright. So, that being said, it is safe to assume that a warrior from Minkai would probably have experience with weapons native to that region, especially if it is a fantastic setting in which these weapons are somewhat common, as we assume they are. That being said, I see no reason why a fighter from Minkai should not be proficient with a katana or a wakazashi, because 1.) the weapon would be relatively common and available, so 2.) he would have ample opportunity to train and become proficient with it as is natural to being a fighter.
To address the objection that he might not have trained with that specific weapon, I counter with the point that learning to fight with a halberd is nothing like learning to fight with a longsword, a battle axe, or even a long bow. A fighter's proficiency with martial weapons suggests a natural aptitude with weapons common to his environment. Therefore, a fighter who is native to Minkai ought to be proficient in weapons native to Minkai.
I would also respond to the possible objection that certain weapons are more difficult to masters than others, which is why they are constitute as "exotic." This is true, and might disqualify the katana from being considered as part of the weapons that Minkai fighters ought to be proficient in. After all, it is easy to consider the katana as the equivalent of a bastard sword (the true "long sword"), as both weapons are heavy and awkward to wield in one hand without special training. This does not disqualify the wakazashi, on the other hand, which is simply a short blade- its utilization should come naturally to someone familiar with bladed weapons.
So in conclusion, I believe that Minkai fighters should at least consider the wakazashi as a martial weapon, rather than an exotic weapon, as they would have plenty of time to practice and learn how to wield it in their native country. The katana can either be martial or exotic, depending on how one might be able to argue its utility, although traditionally the blade was two-handed, so a strong argument can be made that it should be considered like a bastard sword.
A trait like this should probably exclude some normal western martial weapons from the characters weapon proficiencies, so that it is somehow balanced.
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Using a katana two handed is a martial weapon. Wakasashi's are fine as exotics as so far as I recall they were most frequently used ceremonially.
That trait is totally OP and wold not fly in my game. A trait should be worth half a feet. Yours is exotic weapon proficiency x2.
Also, it's my belief that those weapons are exotic not due to rarity but due to being mechanicly superior to martial options. Lots of tien weapons are listed as martial in UC so your suggestion reeks of using history to game the system which is a personal pet peeve.
Why not just play a samurai, ninja, or kensi? Or use the heirloom weapon trait?
Using a katana two handed is a martial weapon. Wakasashi's are fine as exotics as so far as I recall they were most frequently used ceremonially.
That trait is totally OP and wold not fly in my game. A trait should be worth half a feet. Yours is exotic weapon proficiency x2.
Also, it's my belief that those weapons are exotic not due to rarity but due to being mechanicly superior to martial options. Lots of tien weapons are listed as martial in UC so your suggestion reeks of using history to game the system which is a personal pet peeve.
Why not just play a samurai, ninja, or kensi? Or use the heirloom weapon trait?
What I want is an idea to fix what I see as an inconsistency with Pathfinder. It does not make sense that Tien characters wouldn't be proficient with weapons common to their homeland. Pathfinder automatically assumes your characters are Western and only have experience with Western Weapons.
You're statement reflects a flaw with the game- the "eastern" classes are proficient with these weapons, but characters from the East are not. This does not seem to make sense. Ninjas have no special reason to be proficient in the katana or the wakazashi, I don't see why an Eastern Fighter needs a reason either.As for the accusation of gaming the system- I'm trying to fix a problem the system has- a Euro-centric focus so common to D&D in a campaign setting that includes the whole world. Honestly, Tien characters from Tien should just expect different proficiencies, but Paizo so far has not published any material to support the differences of weapons in the culture.
As near as I can tell, the wakazashi is only an exotic weapon for game balance. An exotic weapons should not be considered exotic only because they are mechanically superior. An exotic weapon should be exotic because it is difficult to master relative to martial weapons. The bastard sword is exotic because it is difficult to wield in one-hand. The spiked chain is exotic because it is a strange weapon. If you're going to argue for "game balance" being a reason why exotic weapons are exotic, then you should make the nodachi exotic, seeing as it is mechanically superior to the Falchion in every way, and even has a similar price.
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You are assuming martial weapons are not common. Exotic weapons might be rare as well, limited to those of status, wealth, and chance.
The katana example above is good, since it's martial when used 2 handed. I thought there was another trait for adding prof, but I can't find it.
A trait to gain weapon familiarity, count x weapon as martial, would be cool but I don't think it exists. Heirloom weapon is nerfed for simple or martial prof only.
I would accept one of the following swaps as a gm
Swap for hvy armor prof
Armor training
Paladin code
A strict vow that's fluffy and will cause work on your part.
Less attribute points (2)
Constant training costs, lvl x100 per lvl until lvl 10 . And at lvl 10 you must seek out and defeat a master of that weapon type or loose prof due to shame. If you win you gain the weapon prof. You may be challenged to duels, which could be lethal before this as well.
I don't know the AP so these suggestions may not fit.
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What I want is an idea to fix what I see as an inconsistency with Pathfinder. It does not make sense that Tien characters wouldn't be proficient with weapons common to their homeland. Pathfinder automatically assumes your characters are Western and only have experience with Western Weapons.
By that logic fighters should also be proficient with falcatas, sawtooth sabers, and Aldori dueling swords. The fact is that they are not. Each of those weapons are mechanically superior to martial weapons. Just like the katana and wakisahi are mechanically superior to martial options.
You're statement reflects a flaw with the game- the "eastern" classes are proficient with these weapons, but characters from the East are not. This does not seem to make sense. Ninjas have no special reason to be proficient in the katana or the wakazashi, I don't see why an Eastern Fighter needs a reason either.
As for the accusation of gaming the system- I'm trying to fix a problem the system has- a Euro-centric focus so common to D&D in a campaign setting that includes the whole world. Honestly, Tien characters from Tien should just expect different proficiencies, but Paizo so far has not published any material to support the differences of weapons in the culture.
Your statement suggests ignorance of the many oriental weapons in UC that are martial and very good choices for a tien fighter. The naganata is only one such option off the top of my head. For the samurai and ninja the extra proficiencies are simply class features on par with the fighters tower shield proficiency.
As near as I can tell, the wakazashi is only an exotic weapon for game balance. An exotic weapons should not be considered exotic only because they are mechanically superior. An exotic weapon should be exotic because it is difficult to master relative to martial weapons. The bastard sword is exotic because it is difficult to wield in one-hand. The...
I'm afraid that we will again have to disagree. While many exotic weapons are "bad" and not mechanically superior the wakasahi is a strict upgrade on the shortsword. It is good design for better weapons to have a cost attached. Your philosophy of exotic weapons not nesserly being better is intriguing it doesn't hold water (notable exceptions are usually 3.5 legacy rules or monk shanagans). As for the nodachi I consider it an answer to the elven curvebade for those martial minded heroes who don't want pointy ears.
Well Fighters are proficient with Aldori Dueling Swords and Sawtooth sabers they just can use them to their fullest ability.
And i don't see Deathly or whatever the Wakasazshi has for its trait being that great i mean a Coup de Grace usually doesn't need a +4 to the DC.
Yeah, exotic weapons does not mean 'exotic' as an eastern weapon, rather exotic mechanically. Just because some in Mnkai can use local weapons doens't meant they can automatically use a katana - as a katana is still an exotic weapon in use, not in use by non-locals only.
Look at bastard sword, which is exotic to use one-handed. It doesn't matter that your father is the smith in creating the bastard sword. Just because its local for your character, does not mean you can automatically wield single handed not counting as exotic.
Exotic has nothing to do with a weapon from a foreign country, it has everything to do with its difficulty in wielding vs. a normal non-exotic weapon.
And that's all well and good for the Bastard Sword/Katana, which can both be wielded two-handed martially. But, thematically, there is no reason someone skilled with a short sword should have any problems wielding a wakizashi or vice-versa. And while the Wakizashi is mechanically superior (to the extent that it has a better critical range, the Deadly trait being completely irrelevant), one has to wonder why it isn't simply considered a short sword?
The problem is that Exotic Weapons, as a category, are a complete mess. A handful are in there because they are mechanically superior. Some of them are weak weapons mechanically, but their real world equivalents originated in Japan or India, so regardless of how widespread they were, how easy to use, or how powerful, they have to be 'exotic' to us Westerners. Sometimes, weapons are put there as an attempt at simulationism, because wielding them properly is tricky in some manner in real life.
Some of them are weak weapons mechanically, but their real world equivalents originated in Japan or India, so regardless of how widespread they were, how easy to use, or how powerful, they have to be 'exotic' to us Westerners. Sometimes, weapons are put there as an attempt at simulationism, because wielding them properly is tricky in some manner in real life.
Well I'm not purely a westerner and I see katana one-handed as exotic.
While I may agree with some of your points whether some weapons should be considered exotic or not - the real point is they are. So unless the OP's GM is willing to houserule around it, there's no reason to suggest a Tian Xia former inhabitant to get to use exotic weapons without paying the exotic weapon feat.
They are exotic because they are found in the exotic weapons list, not because they are Tian Xia weapons.
There are many new eastern weapons in the UC, and none of them are considered exotic. So the OP could access any of these, but not katana or wakizashi - at least per rules.
By that logic fighters should also be proficient with falcatas, sawtooth sabers, and Aldori dueling swords. The fact is that they are not. Each of those weapons are mechanically superior to martial weapons. Just like the katana and wakisahi are mechanically superior to martial options... Your statement suggests ignorance of the many oriental weapons in UC that are martial and very good choices for a tien fighter. The naganata is only one such option off the top of my head...While many exotic weapons are "bad" and not mechanically superior the wakasahi is a strict upgrade on the shortsword. It is good design for better weapons to have a cost attached. Your philosophy of exotic weapons not nesserly being better is intriguing it doesn't hold water..As for the nodachi I consider it an answer to the elven curvebade for those martial minded heroes who don't want pointy ears.
Unfortunately my previous draft of this response was lost when my connection times out, so I'm going to be more concise. Your argument that the wakazashi ought to be exotic for game balance reasons makes no sense. The same holds for your defense of the nodachi.
Nodachi first: The Elven Curved Blade does come with a cost- it requires you to be a specific race or spend a feat if you are not. That, believe it or not, is a designed cost. The reason you would use an elven curved blade is because it was mechanically better to a falchion- the +2 CMD vs. sundering and ability to use it with weapon finesse were almost negligible, because two-handed weapon-based builds usually don't consider weapon finesse.
So, if the nodachi was designed to provided an alternative to those who wanted a 1d10 18-20/x2 crit, S or P weapon, it went above and beyond its call and made the best two-handed weapon in Pathfinder. And, based on that logic, it should be exotic.
Wakazashi next- the Wakazashi is the rough equivalent of an "upgrade" to the kurki, not the short sword, in the same way the nodachi was an "upgrade" to the falchion. Kurkis deals 1d4 slashing damage and have a 18-20 critical range. They are light one-handed martial weapons. The wakazashi is a light one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 points of slashing or piercing damage, and has an 18-20 critical range and a special ability.
The Falchion is a two-handed weapon that deals 2d4 slashing damage, and has a critical range of 18-20. The nodachi deals 1d10 slashing or piercing damage, has a critical threat range of 18-20 and has a special ability.
Notice a pattern?
The wakazashi as a martial weapon makes as much sense as the nodachi as a martial weapon- a more expensive mechanically superior version of a pre-existing weapon. As for consideration of the special abilities- brace (nodachi) is useful against charges, but is a rarely used action, and deadly (wakazashi) is a pointless ability, because its contribution to the save DC of a coup de grace attack is negligible (often because the save DCs are so high anyway).
The only reason I can see why the wakazashi is an exotic weapon is to limit its accessibility to non-"Asian" classes, which is silly. There is no good reason the wakazashi should remain an exotic weapon, expect perhaps to contribute to the "Asian mystique" conjured up by katanas, wakazashis, and o-yari armor.
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I'm sort of hoping that the Jade Empire Gazetteer will have an alternate set of Martial/Exotic lists, or a set of archetypes that reflect what those cultures would use more frequently.
As for a Trait, something like:
Weapon Training
You have studied a rare weapon. Choose one exotic weapon, treat this weapon as a martial weapon.
could work.
I'm sort of hoping that the Jade Empire Gazetteer will have an alternate set of Martial/Exotic lists, or a set of archetypes that reflect what those cultures would use more frequently.
As for a Trait, something like:
could work.Weapon Training
You have studied a rare weapon. Choose one exotic weapon, treat this weapon as a martial weapon.
I think that exists in the UC, well at least the list on non-exotic oriental weapons, which means those not on the list are exotic. While the UC provides all kinds of extra things for martial characters, I think it's primarily serving Jade Regent and Tian Xia, more than anything else.
the Wakizashi is what? a more expensive kukri that deals 1 more point of damage on average?
the Nodachi is a falchion who trades it's higher minimum damage for the ability to deal half a point more on average.
and the Katana is just a Scimitar that gives up Dervish Dance to deal 1 more point of damage on average.
the extra gold cost is already fine on it's own. a feat for 1 point of damage is not worth it.
are you going to charge a precious feat for an extra point of damage? "weapon specialization" provides double that amount.
and piercing isn't as good as slashing, unless you are fighting a bunch of Rhakshasas.
Just putting this in here, even though it's been mentioned before. What makes a weapon "exotic" is it's ease of use. A katana (and a wakazashi) are decidedly more difficult to handle than a longsword or an axe. They are single-bladed weapons (which I would trade the "deadly" mechanic for resistance to sunder, since that is what they were historically famous for), which require a great deal more training to wield expertly.
Just putting this in here, even though it's been mentioned before. What makes a weapon "exotic" is it's ease of use. A katana (and a wakazashi) are decidedly more difficult to handle than a longsword or an axe. They are single-bladed weapons (which I would trade the "deadly" mechanic for resistance to sunder, since that is what they were historically famous for), which require a great deal more training to wield expertly.
While I agree that what makes an exotic weapon is that it is exotic (difficult to use/master), I don't agree with the assessment that katanas and wakazashis are difficult to learn. I'll give you that using a katana one-handed should require a feat- the katana was a two-handed sword that could be held one-handed, but doing so was awkward due to its weight and heft. The same is true of the European hand-and-a-half sword (bastard sword), the "true" long sword of the Medieval Period (the longswords of D&D should actually be called "arming swords").
The wakazashi is a different matter. I'm not convinced that a wakazashi is difficult to learn, because its basic principle is similar to that of a short sword or kukri. It can be used to stab or slash, and its curved blade allows it to deliver more force with each blow.In fact, according to historical evidence, wakazashi were not uncommon at all. Particularly in the Edo period when it was illegal to carry a katana unless you were a samurai, merchants would carry them as a defense against robbers and bandits. The prevalence of the sword suggests an ease-of-use that would certainly categorize the weapon as "martial" rather than "exotic."
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You could always pick samurai, kensai magus, or be a half-elf with an alternate racial trait. Maybe even make your human bonus feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
The other good reason to make up a character who has Tian heritage (especially Tien-Min) is because they'll get along there more easily or at least have an easier time fitting in. Having made up a dwarf crossbow fighter from Janderhoff, I was quite the gaijin for most of the AP.