Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

How would you build a Red Mage?


Conversions

1 to 50 of 68 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I like the Red Mage from ye olde Final Fantasy. Wears some armor, but not as heavy as the fighter. Does worthwhile melee damage, but again not as much as the fighter. Casts offensive spells, but not the super-strong ones the dedicated Black Mage can cast. Casts defensive/healing spells, but not the super-strong ones the dedicated White Mage can cast. But rather than ending up sucking at everything, he's actually pretty good (in FF, quite possibly the best class, or close to it).

I'm curious as to how people would go about building a similar character in Pathfinder. Here are the requirements:

0) Needs to be PFS legal. You get docked points if in the early levels it either sucks or doesn't feel like a Red Mage yet; also remember that PFS caps at level 12. As a rule of thumb, try to have the build in decent working order by level 2.
1) Need to be able to deal melee damage, unassisted, averaging in the range of 5-6 per hit (if one handed) or more.
2) Need to be able to cast at least a couple of decent damage-dealing spells (or SLAs, etc) per day. Bonus points if from a distance (i.e., cleric's fire domain ray is preferred over flame oracle's fire punch thing).
3) Need to be able to cast at least a couple of healing and/or buff spells (or SLAs, etc) per day.
4) Need to be able to attain a decent armor class (say, 18+ by level 2 without magical enhancements) and have enough HP that going into melee isn't suicide.
5) The more skill ranks, the better. Minimum is 3/level, but try to go higher.
6) Not required, but bonus points if you don't dump CHA below 10, seeing as Red Mage is the coolest of the bunch. ;)
7) First person to post a magus gets slapped. Yes, it might be the easiest/best option, but seriously, let's try a little harder than that and explore our other options.
8) Please, no carbon-copies (or near-carbon-copies) of Kyra.


You already mentioned the solution in your post...

A cleric of Sarenrae with the Fire & Glory domains would meet all of the criteria. You could make him Neutral Good, channel negative energy, and add Channel Smite into your attack list. You gain proficiency with the Scimitar so damage won't be too bad and you can equip a shield to boost AC. Make him human for an extra skill point per level.


Multiclass magus/inquisitor.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

AerynTahlro wrote:

You already mentioned the solution in your post...

A cleric of Sarenrae with the Fire & Glory domains would meet all of the criteria. You could make him Neutral Good, channel negative energy, and add Channel Smite into your attack list. You gain proficiency with the Scimitar so damage won't be too bad and you can equip a shield to boost AC. Make him human for an extra skill point per level.

You know, I was JUST on my way to edit my post with rule #8.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
7) First person to post a magus gets slapped.
Kryzbyn wrote:

Multiclass magus/inquisitor.

*Slaps Kryzbyn in a decidedly multiclassed fashion*


You asked.

I played a gestalted magus/inquisitor. Very synergistic.
Granted gestalt isn't ok for PFS, but multiclass is.
It will have light healing spells, light offensive spells, and with judgements he will be able to melee well. He'll be a little multi-ability dependant, but it will do everything you want, and do it well.
As well as the RP perks from Inquis (knowledge skills, bonuses to sense motive, intimidate) and tracking, you'll be in the thick of almost every situation.


Jiggy wrote:
You know, I was JUST on my way to edit my post with rule #8.

What's rule #8?

Andoran

AerynTahlro wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
You know, I was JUST on my way to edit my post with rule #8.
What's rule #8?

Don't talk about rule #8.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Oh, is my edit not showing up? Common glitch on these boards. Here you go:

8) Please, no carbon-copies (or near-carbon-copies) of Kyra.

Andoran

A witch blade build could work, maybe Ranger 1 / Witch 5 / Eldritch knight 6.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ShadowcatX wrote:
A witch blade build could work, maybe Ranger 1 / Witch 5 / Eldritch knight 6.

Could you elaborate?

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dawnflower Dervish bard archetype from Inner Sea Magic.

It's basically the Dervish Dancer archetype from Ultimat Combat except the Battle Dance bonus is DOUBLED and gets Dervish Dance feat in exchange for Bardic Knowledge, and the character gets less Battle Dance types.

Because of this the 3 attributes you'd need are only DEX, CON, and CHA. Everything else can stay 10.

So you can go something like:

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

0) it's PFS legal.
1) d6 + DEX modifier + Battle Dance bonus (starts at 2 because of the doubling), so it's d6 + 3 + 2.
2) this is a bit of an issue. Ear-Piercing Scream and Sound Burst are about the only ones.
3) bard, so you get cure spells.
4) chain shirt + DEX + feats if you want, d8 HD.
5) bard, 6 skills/level
6) 16 CHA
7) not a magus
8) not Kyra


The problem with inquisitor is that you don't have any damage spells.
The problem with a magus is that you don't have any healing spells.

Red Mages has a mix of the weaker healing and damage spells along with armor and melee damage.

I am really thinking of some for of melee based negative energy battle cleric.

If you pick a domain like fire(burnind hands, fireball) along with your normal blasty cleric spells like sound burst, flame strike, etc.

You have all the healing of a normal cleric if you channel positive energy, but I think a negative energy cleric would be more red mage like.

So, I am thinking a cleric of Sarenrae, although that will not let you channel negative energy. It would give you profiency with a scimitar.

The other option would be a neutral cleric of Brigh. That would let you have the fire domain, and channel negative energy, but your favored weapon sucks.

The final option would be to use the Separatist archtype to get the fire domain with the diety of your choice.

Qadira

Very Simple make a Bard.


Since I am the second person to suggest magus, do I get a free pass?

Magus alone could cover some of the need for healing with a certain slightly evil spell. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing.

Going hexcrafter allows access to some very fitting hexes: healing, misfortune, fortune and evil eye.

Eventually go into cleric for 3 levels and top it with mystic theurge.

but since this is to easy something else:

Paladin/Sorcerer: Multiclass into Sorcerer at level 2, take a nice bloodline and get the arcane armor training feats, and maybe arcane strike.

Inquisitor

Bard, the arcane duellist seems nice, and bards have some nice damage spells if you know where to look.

Cleric with the right domains as has already been suggested.

Oracle could be fun too if you find a mystery that fits (Lore, Battle..)

I guess the question is what kind of red mage you want (concept) the old school version, the new kind, maybe the 8 bit theatre version (my favourite) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_8-Bit_Theater#Red_Mage

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:

Oh, is my edit not showing up? Common glitch on these boards. Here you go:

8) Please, no carbon-copies (or near-carbon-copies) of Kyra.

I'd hardly call that suggestion a carbon-copy of Kyra. Healing and Sun are very different from Fire and Glory, and she is definitely a defensive character, while I view the Red Mage as more of an offensive character.

You can build a cleric of Saranrae without her looking like Kyra.

Andoran

Jiggy wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
A witch blade build could work, maybe Ranger 1 / Witch 5 / Eldritch knight 6.
Could you elaborate?

There's not much to elaborate on. Ranger 1 and a high int gets you some skills, witch gets you good spell casting and with the right patron some damage spells (maybe go witch 6 even) and eldritch knight gets you casting and base attack. Its not as nice and neat as the magus, but you didn't want a magus and this is about the best fighter / arcane caster alternative. You could substitute any other melee class, if you prefer, but really heavy armor is going to be wasted, you can't cast during a rage, and paladin is better straight class (or at least a 2 level dip on a charisma caster).


Synthesist Summoner:

0 legal
1 lots
2 quite something, your eidolon can learn to breath fire, you can cast
Corrosive Touch, Create Pit, Haste (early access and increases group damage), Obsidian Flow, Pellet Blast, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire...Black Tentacles
3 You can heal your Eidolon and by draining his hp with another spell yourself, everybody else gets healed with infernal healing (extended if necessary),he has access to most of the nice buff spells, and well haste as a level 2 spell^^
4 Bonded with your Eidolon, and lets be fair you will be bonded all all the time unless you are sleppingm can give you great AC at al levels, it´s not entirely unmagical but there is no buffing involed.
5 you will have some point to spare for a good INT, since you don´t have to spend so many on physical stats
6 You will be quite the charmer 16+ charisma
7 Not a magus
8 so not a cleric


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Bard. Spoony archetype.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Banpai wrote:

Synthesist Summoner:

0 legal
1 lots
2 quite something, your eidolon can learn to breath fire, you can cast
Corrosive Touch, Create Pit, Haste (early access and increases group damage), Obsidian Flow, Pellet Blast, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire...Black Tentacles
3 You can heal your Eidolon and by draining his hp with another spell yourself, everybody else gets healed with infernal healing (extended if necessary),he has access to most of the nice buff spells, and well haste as a level 2 spell^^
4 Bonded with your Eidolon, and lets be fair you will be bonded all all the time unless you are sleppingm can give you great AC at al levels, it´s not entirely unmagical but there is no buffing involed.
5 you will have some point to spare for a good INT, since you don´t have to spend so many on physical stats
6 You will be quite the charmer 16+ charisma
7 Not a magus
8 so not a cleric

9) Soooo not a Red Mage.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BYC wrote:

Dawnflower Dervish bard archetype from Inner Sea Magic.

It's basically the Dervish Dancer archetype from Ultimat Combat except the Battle Dance bonus is DOUBLED and gets Dervish Dance feat in exchange for Bardic Knowledge, and the character gets less Battle Dance types.

Holy crap, what a feat to get at first level for free!


Oh, sheesh. No magus? Well, that makes things a bit more difficult. Only having up to level 12 makes things a lot more difficult, and wanting coherence at level 2 is even tougher. Now, I'll disclaim this post by saying I'm still not too clear on what's PFS legal and what's not, so grain of salt here.

The first thing that immediately pops into mind is an empyreal-blooded sorcerer 4/cleric 3/mystic theurge 5. But, that leaves you with a fairly weak BAB (+6 at level 11). Other than that, sohei 1/empyreal sorcerer 6/EK 5, but that leaves you no healing.

A sohei 1/witch 5/EK 6 could be more what you're looking for, but you'd want to take boon companion to buff up your familiar.

I vaguely remember a bard or rogue archetype that grants proficiency with martial weapons, but damned if I can remember which. You might want to consider that, if there actually is one, instead of sohei for skill ranks and versatility.

Now, moving into really esoteric territory here, a magus 4/urban druid 3/theurge 5 could be something worth looking into, especially with an archetype like staff magus due to druidic weapon restrictions. That'll give you a workable BAB (+7 at 11) with the ability to overcome that weakness with true strike and arcane accuracy (not to mention the ability to stack shillelagh and magus weapon enhancement, what's not to love about whopping somebody upside the head with a spellstrike that deals 2d6 physical damage), moderate healing and damage. That is, if magus is permissible in a limited fashion. Actually, I kind of like that. Might try it myself some day.

Really, the thing here is theurge builds excepted, you're going to end up with combat prowess and either arcane or divine spellcasting. That means if you want both damage and healing, you're going to have to find a spellcasting class that has both--which limits you to witch, alchemist with infusions, and the divine casters. AFAIK there are very few if any PFS-legal martial/divine PrC's, and the ones that exist are all about CRUSADES! and I don't think that quite fits what you're going after.


How about just druid? They have heals, blasts, and 3/4 BAB. An urban druid with the nobility domain can get at a couple of the basic cleric buffs (divine favor and magic vestment) on a spontaneous basis and druids get scimitar proficiency. A dervish dance urban druid may not need to wildshape to be a viable combatant.


What about the Magician Bard? The bard makes a decent melee character (in the range of what you want), and if you build it correctly you can accomplish everything you need! This all is keeping in mind that the Red Mage (classically speaking) was never capable of the great high-end magic of the black or white mage and made up for it by casting from both and doing well with a weapon.

0)Very society legal.
1) Easy enough. Build yourself like a melee bard and you'll do fine.
2) Level 2 grants you access to 1 spell from any arcane list. Pick your favorite blasty spell and go to town.
3) You're a bard. Healing/buffing is no issue.
4) You might struggle a bit here unless you decide to go size small, but it's not too bad. You can deck yourself out in a chain shirt (+4), heavy shield (+2) and cover the rest with a mediocre Dex (+1-2) or illusion spells. Your HD is as good as a full caster gets.
5) 6+skills per level.
6) Cha isn't dumped. You'll likely start with 12-13 and rely on items to get you up.
7)Not a magus.
8) Not Kyra.

Enjoy!

Qadira

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Just paint the mage RED. lol


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

What about the Magician Bard? The bard makes a decent melee character (in the range of what you want), and if you build it correctly you can accomplish everything you need! This all is keeping in mind that the Red Mage (classically speaking) was never capable of the great high-end magic of the black or white mage and made up for it by casting from both and doing well with a weapon.

0)Very society legal.
1) Easy enough. Build yourself like a melee bard and you'll do fine.
2) Level 2 grants you access to 1 spell from any arcane list. Pick your favorite blasty spell and go to town.
3) You're a bard. Healing/buffing is no issue.
4) You might struggle a bit here unless you decide to go size small, but it's not too bad. You can deck yourself out in a chain shirt (+4), heavy shield (+2) and cover the rest with a mediocre Dex (+1-2) or illusion spells. Your HD is as good as a full caster gets.
5) 6+skills per level.
6) Cha isn't dumped. You'll likely start with 12-13 and rely on items to get you up.
7)Not a magus.
8) Not Kyra.

Enjoy!

I'd dispute (1). Nobody suggests Summoners should go into melee. Non-inspire courage bards have the same lack of bonuses, unlike every other 3/4 BAB base player class. A bard without inspire courage is like an inquisitor without judgement and bane, a magus without his arcane pool, or a rogue without sneak attack. You just aren't going to contribute enough in melee to be worth the risk unless you're the only 3/4 or better BAB character that isn't a rogue, and there are either zero or an odd number of rogues. I suppose that can happen in society games, but if your goal is to be decent in melee some sort of accuracy boost is needed to put you in the semi-martial PC class clump instead of the semi-martial NPC class clump.

If the bar for red mage is "don't die too quickly if someone gets next to you" then magician is just dandy, but if the bar is "be average at fighting" the magician is going to have to stretch, which probably means a stat buy that makes him a less effective caster than a magus, bard classic, arcane duelist, cleric, or druid would be since they have other combat boosters that let them spare a bit more for their con and mental stats.

If you do settle on the magician you should consider building as a ray and touch attack specialist. That will get you the most out of your BAB and dweomercraft. Don't worry too much about spell resistance, especially given a choice between no SR and no save. Dweomercraft gives you a bonus to caster level checks and you can still play an elf and grab spell penetration. Spell perfection can give a bigger bigger boost, but that's three levels after PFS characters retire so you're not competing with it.


Jiggy wrote:
Banpai wrote:

Synthesist Summoner:

0 legal
1 lots
2 quite something, your eidolon can learn to breath fire, you can cast
Corrosive Touch, Create Pit, Haste (early access and increases group damage), Obsidian Flow, Pellet Blast, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire...Black Tentacles
3 You can heal your Eidolon and by draining his hp with another spell yourself, everybody else gets healed with infernal healing (extended if necessary),he has access to most of the nice buff spells, and well haste as a level 2 spell^^
4 Bonded with your Eidolon, and lets be fair you will be bonded all all the time unless you are sleppingm can give you great AC at al levels, it´s not entirely unmagical but there is no buffing involed.
5 you will have some point to spare for a good INT, since you don´t have to spend so many on physical stats
6 You will be quite the charmer 16+ charisma
7 Not a magus
8 so not a cleric

9) Soooo not a Red Mage.

Yeah i know, just wanted to bend the rules till they cry^^

On second though nothing prevents the eidolon from looking like a fantastic red armored white haired mage. ^^ And you will be quite tough.

In the end as has been pointed out several times, given your conditions bard (magican) works pretty good.


Bard would be what your looking for. It is what the red mage was based off of after all.


You'd need to do monk, barbarian, or oracle of flame. Why? Because Red Wunz go Fasta!


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

What about the Magician Bard? The bard makes a decent melee character (in the range of what you want), and if you build it correctly you can accomplish everything you need! This all is keeping in mind that the Red Mage (classically speaking) was never capable of the great high-end magic of the black or white mage and made up for it by casting from both and doing well with a weapon.

0)Very society legal.
1) Easy enough. Build yourself like a melee bard and you'll do fine.
2) Level 2 grants you access to 1 spell from any arcane list. Pick your favorite blasty spell and go to town.
3) You're a bard. Healing/buffing is no issue.
4) You might struggle a bit here unless you decide to go size small, but it's not too bad. You can deck yourself out in a chain shirt (+4), heavy shield (+2) and cover the rest with a mediocre Dex (+1-2) or illusion spells. Your HD is as good as a full caster gets.
5) 6+skills per level.
6) Cha isn't dumped. You'll likely start with 12-13 and rely on items to get you up.
7)Not a magus.
8) Not Kyra.

Enjoy!

I'd very much agree with this. You can also afford, with a bard, to buy up some good combat feats early on so you can help boost your attack and AC that way (plus Extra Performance isn't as much a must as for other bard builds because you're probably not going to use dweomercraft as much as one would use inspire courage and in a pinch you can use extended performance for some extra rounds). Because the magician doesn't have inspire courage, he'd have to be sure to take buff spells that improve his and his allies' abilities, but that's all well within the Red Mage paradigm anyway.

Bearing in mind I am not an expert at "power building," a second level "Red Mage" Magician-Bard would look something like this, maybe??? 20 point buy (I tend to do "spread out" point buys rather than min-max, for the record, but I'm sure it could be adjusted to taste). This uses core and APG. Bear in mind it's been awhile since I've played FF, but I'm trying to go for the feel I remember.

Spoiler:

Red
NG Human Bard (Magician) 2
Str 15 (starts at 13 plus human bonus)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 14

AC 18 (touch 12, FF 16)(10 + Dex 2 + Chain Shirt 4 + Heavy Shield +2)
HP 16 (2d8+4)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +3

BAB +1
Melee: MWK Longsword +5 (1d8+2/19-20) (seems a classic Red Mage weapon, idk)
Ranged: Shortbow +3 (1d8/20x3)

Spellcasting (Caster level 2, Concentration +4/+8 defensively)
Spells Known:
Cantrips (at will) (DC 12):
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
(Not especially "red magey" but generally all purpose spells good for a dabbler in magic)
1st Level (3 per day) (DC 13):
Burning Hands (there's your elemental blasty. It's only a little ranged, but as you go up you can take more distanced ones--frex at 6th level, he can take Acid Arrow or Scorching Ray)
Cure Light Wounds (there's your healing)
Invigorate ('nother healing--removes "status effects"; could also do remove fear for buffing or lesser confusion or sleep for status effect inflicting)

Feats
Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (longsword) (human bonus), Improved Counterspell (Magician Bonus)

Skills (6+Int 1+ human 1)
Acrobatics (Dex) 2 = +4 (including ACP)
Intimidate (Cha) 2 = +7
Knowledge (Arcana) (Int) 2 = +7
Perception (Wis) 2 = +5
Perform (Act) (Cha) 2 = +7
Sense Motive (Wis) 2 = +5
Spellcraft (Int) 2 = +7
Use Magic Device (Cha) 2 = +8
(Magical talent bonuses added in)
(Other possibilities might include Bluff, Stealth, Diplomacy, and other knowledges)

Special Abilities
Magical Talent (Ex): A magician gains a bonus equal to half his level on Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Dweomercraft (Su): A magician can use performance to manipulate magical energies. Allies of the magician gain a +1 bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability relies on visual and audible components. It replaces inspire courage.

Distraction (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight. Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by an illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform skill check proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the distraction is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it sees the distraction, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Distraction does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Distraction relies on visual components.

Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working. For every three levels the bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.

Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on all skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

Extended Performance (Su): At 2nd level, a magician can extend the duration of bardic performance after he stops concentrating by sacrificing a spell slot as a swift action. The performance effect lingers for 1 extra round per level of the spell. Only one spell may be sacrificed per performance, and performance types that take affect after a specific number of rounds cannot be extended. This ability replaces well-versed.

Expanded Repertoire (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a magician can add one spell to his spells known from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. The spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces versatile performance.

Equipment (WBL 1,000 GP)
Masterwork longsword (315 gp), Chain shirt (100 gp), Masterwork heavy wooden shield (157 gp), Shortbow (30 gp), 20 arrows (1 gp), Spell component pouch (5 gp), Masterwork backpack (50 gp), 5 flasks alchemist's fire (100 gp), 5 flasks acid (50 gp), 2 potions cure light wounds (100 gp), traveler's outfit (free), really cool red hat (priceless), 92 gp for other assorted adventuring gear.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Not bad, DeathQuaker, not bad!

Couple of minor things:
• Can't use the human bonus feat on Weapon Focus, since it requires BAB +1, which you don't have at first level. Have to wait until 3rd for that, unfortunately.
• Heavy shield would mean that, if I have my sword out, I can't cast spells with somatic components (which is pretty much all of them). Have to go with a light shield or buckler.

Here's an idea:

Red Mage 2.0:

Red
Human Bard (Magician) Level 2
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
Feats: Toughness, Dodge (Human bonus)

HP: 18 (2d8+2+3), or up to 20 with FCB
AC 18 (10+2dex+4chainshirt+1mwkbuckler+1dodge) FF 15, Touch 13

Melee: MWK Longsword +5 (1d8+2/19-20)

Etc etc etc

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Now let's try a cleric version of the Red Mage:

Red Mage Cleric:

Red
Human Cleric (possibly separatist) Level 3
STR 12
DEX 16
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 10
Feats: Toughness (HD1), Weapon Finesse (HMN), EWP:Aldori Dueling Sword (HD3)

HP: 24-27 (depending on FCBs)
AC 20 (10+3dex+6breastplate+1buckler) plus possible enhancements
BAB +2
Melee: MWK Aldori Dueling Sword +6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) Prior to HD3, need to settle for light mace for 1d6+1
Domains: At least one that provides a damage ray (Fire, Water, Air, Earth) and maybe a buffing or speed one (Travel, Growth). If necessary, grab the non-damage one via the separatist archetype.

Any good? Obviously the level 4 stat bump would go to CON for more HP.


Correct on both counts, was trying to work too fast.

I like putting in Dodge instead of Weapon Focus--that keeps the AC where it needs to be, and actually, a buckler is more ideal anyway because it's less ACP, and means you can switch to ranged attacks more easily if necessary (not that that won't be a key feature of the build, but sometimes it's good to be able to shoot something from far away).

Boosting Strength is good (since that keeps you at the same attack bonus). I'd probably stick to Dex 14 Con 14 myself (the odd numbers make me think you'd boost Dex and Con at higher levels, and I'd focus on boosting Cha, since you'll want good save DCs for your blasty spells when you get them, or Strength for better damage output). But I also see where you're going with that (especially with Toughness to add HP instead, though I would have added at higher levels in my build).

I also like having higher Int for skills and being able to boost to 13 if you decide to go a fighting style that uses combat maneuvers, but neither of that is necessary and may make the build unfocused.

I also forgot to add a favored class bonus, come to think of it.

ETA: Ninjaed on the cleric build:

I think the cleric loses "mage" flavor but is obviously more versatile in available weapons and armor.

The cleric version is going to be the obvious better healer. Clerics have SOME good blast spells, but not a lot (but a Magician is only going to get one at 2nd, 6th, 10th, etc.). Clerics have higher LEVEL spells--but the ones at high level tend to be alignment dependent/most effective on outsiders or undead. Bards have lower level spells but a little more more diverse choice, especially the Magician.

On the other hand, the cleric loses out on skills, and you're Wisdom dependent.

I would say the cleric is tougher, the magician is a little more versatile. Both are going to be really good at buffing.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jiggy wrote:

Now let's try a cleric version of the Red Mage:

** spoiler omitted **

Any good? Obviously the level 4 stat bump would go to CON for more HP.

You know what? Scratch that, switch the STR and DEX. More damage, save a feat on Weapon Finesse, and potentially spend a feat on a cooler weapon or on Weapon Focus. Downside is lower AC, but a 17 out of the gate with an 18 after the first adventure (10+1dex+6breastplate+1buckler) is plenty, especially considering enchantment potential.

So...

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10

For a human cleric with at least one damage-dealing domain power gets you a reasonable Red Mage, with 3+FCB skill ranks per level (not great, but hey), decent HP/AC, and decent melee damage (1dX+3) in a caster with full spell progression. I think this might be what I like best.

If I really wanted to get crazy, I could drop DEX to 10 (or WIS to 15) for some INT for more skills.


Jiggy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Now let's try a cleric version of the Red Mage:

** spoiler omitted **

Any good? Obviously the level 4 stat bump would go to CON for more HP.

You know what? Scratch that, switch the STR and DEX. More damage, save a feat on Weapon Finesse, and potentially spend a feat on a cooler weapon or on Weapon Focus. Downside is lower AC, but a 17 out of the gate with an 18 after the first adventure (10+1dex+6breastplate+1buckler) is plenty, especially considering enchantment potential.

So...

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10

For a human cleric with at least one damage-dealing domain power gets you a reasonable Red Mage, with 3+FCB skill ranks per level (not great, but hey), decent HP/AC, and decent melee damage (1dX+3) in a caster with full spell progression. I think this might be what I like best.

If I really wanted to get crazy, I could drop DEX to 10 (or WIS to 15) for some INT for more skills.

That looks better for the Cleric version.

I will reiterate what I just edited in my last post--Clerics get higher level spells, but level 7 up, the useful spells applicable to a lot of circumstances are restricted (I am saying this based on considerable feedback from a cleric player in my last campaign, which went up to level 19). Bards have lower level spells but I think better spell diversity at high levels. Just something to keep in mind, since the spellcasting is an important part of the concept. I think Clerics still get to cast MORE spells.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tweaking the cleric version again...

Half-Elf Cleric (either standard or separatist, depending on deity/domains desired)

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 11

It's a bit spread-out, but I think it could work. You use Ancestral Arms for EWP:Bastard Sword at level 1, giving you +3 to hit for 1d10+3 (avg 8.5) damage in melee. Masterwork plus adding Weapon Focus at HD3 will give you +7 to hit at level 3. Not too bad - only +2 behind an 18STR full-BABer who also takes WF.

Toughness at HD1 keeps HP very respectable (13 at HD1, 27 at HD3, without FCB).

AC will be respectable with 17 out of the gate, 18 at second adventure, and plenty of room to enhance.

Only 3 skill ranks per level (possibly adding FCB), but the cleric doesn't have that many class skills anyway. And you get a racial bonus to perception, for an untrained +4.

A high enough WIS for bonus spells until you hit HD5, by which point you can have a WIS headband. Not long after than you can get a STR belt, too.*

At HD4 you bump CHA and get an extra channel. Or you just write off that 11th point and bump something else at HD4 and HD8 (prolly WIS or CON).

Yeah, I think this is what I'd play if my next PFS character is a cleric.

*If you complete all your faction missions (perfect fame), you can buy a stat item after 9 scenarios, which is when you level up to HD4. If you fail half your faction missions (3/4 fame), it'll take you 12 scenarios, which is when you level up to HD5 (just in time). So no worries.

Cheliax

I mean, I doubt you get better than an Elements Witch

Human Witch
Str: 18
Int: 16
Wis: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Chr: 7

Weild: Longspear

1) Combat Reflexes, Toughness
3) Arcane Strike
5) Power Attack
7) Weapon Focus: Longspear
9) Spell focus: Evocation
11) GSF: Evocation

Fighting and fire, healing and spells... can do everything reasonably well. Lots of attacks from AOOs when people close in, prefers to attack from 10 feet away then step back, will tumble away if necessary.

Grand Lodge

Hey Jiggy:
I was just looking for a little advice on PFS. I'm thinking of doing the slow Xp. Do you know much about it. I was thinking it would (over the course) net me more GP and loot. I know that you only get partial loot for the slow XP, but is it still more over all, for the level? Anyway, sorry for the side topic.

I've also heard a lot that the Fire Domain is pretty bad. The fact that you get Fire Resistence is good, but not comparred to the fact that most of your spells are pretty bad (Burning hands requires you to be close enough to take a lot of hits, Fire Resistance is the most common Resistance by far, and you need to max Wisdom to be partially effective). I don't have experience with it, so just a suggestion.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thalin wrote:

I mean, I doubt you get better than an Elements Witch

Human Witch
Str: 18
Int: 16
Wis: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Chr: 7

Weild: Longspear

1) Combat Reflexes, Toughness
3) Arcane Strike
5) Power Attack
7) Weapon Focus: Longspear
9) Spell focus: Evocation
11) GSF: Evocation

Fighting and fire, healing and spells... can do everything reasonably well. Lots of attacks from AOOs when people close in, prefers to attack from 10 feet away then step back, will tumble away if necessary.

I dunno about doing a "full caster" as a partial-melee build like that. Let's start with your to-hit, compared to my above cleric:

Witch vs Cleric (assuming a masterwork weapon for each)
+5 vs +4
+6 vs +5
+6 vs +6
+7 vs +7
+7 vs +7
+8 vs +8
+8 vs +9
+9 vs +10
+9 vs +10
+10 vs +11
+10 vs +12
+11 vs +13
Okay, not as bad as I pictured. How about HP?
10 vs 13
15 vs 20
20 vs 27
30 vs 35 (assuming you bump CON here)
37 vs 43
44 vs 51
And so forth. Again not as bad as I initially assumed, but you're still essentially a level behind the cleric at all times.

How about AC, given your ASF restrictions? I'll give you ceremonial silk armor from UC.
13 vs 18 after one adventure.
14 vs 20 after 2,000gp. At that point, your AC is still lagging behind that of CR 1 (or less) monsters.

As for the AoOs when people advance, keep in mind that people can 5' up to you without provoking. Or just shoot you squarely in your 14 AC with their composite longbows at +5-7 to hit for 1d8+3-4 damage. Or pull out their own reach weapons and make things really awkward for you.

And 7 WIS? So you essentially have no good saves. That could be a problem.

An interesting idea, but it just looks way too fragile (mostly the AC and HP). Even so, kudos for breaking the mold!

Cheliax

Slow profession halves gold and PA; you actually end up a little behind, since consumable are used at a faster rate relative to gold gain. It's for if you have a cool idea and want to play it for 66 mods instead of 33 (before retiring); or if you have a character that "gets good" at level 8 and want to extend higher levels so you get to see the awesome more (you can turn it on later if you want).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Beckett of the Bleeding Rose wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Side Topic:
You get exactly half GP on the slow track, so your net loot will be the same. However, you're likely to go through more consumables (due to more adventures), so it's actually a tad less gold-efficient. Also, it's theoretically slightly harder to get all your fame/prestige; since you can only gain 1 per scenario instead of 2 (on the slow track, I mean), you have to complete your faction mission (normally 1 point) AND fulfill the main mission (normally another point) in order to get your 1 point. A small difference, but a difference.

I haven't played slow-track yet, but my understanding is that the main reason to do so (and the reason it was invented) is if you have a character that you really like playing and don't want to level him beyond playability too fast. If your character hits level 12, or even just gets higher than what there are tables for at your local venue, suddenly you can't play that character anymore. So basically (again, as I understand it) people use the normal track for a few levels until their PC hits their stride, then go to slow-track so they can keep playing longer with that PC. There is no "mechanical" benefit to the slow track; you only use it if you want more sessions with that particular PC.

Quote:
I've also heard a lot that the Fire Domain is pretty bad. The fact that you get Fire Resistence is good, but not comparred to the fact that most of your spells are pretty bad (Burning hands requires you to be close enough to take a lot of hits, Fire Resistance is the most common Resistance by far, and you need to max Wisdom to be partially effective). I don't have experience with it, so just a suggestion.

Burning Hands can be improved with a trait that lets you treat one spell of your choice as though it were at +1 CL, meaning BH would be 2d4 at level 1. Also, there's the domain granted power of shooting fire as a ranged touch attack, and its damage scales with level. You're correct that the fire domain pushes you toward a higher WIS for the save DCs, though you can potentially compensate for that with a feat for +1 to your DCs. As for BH forcing you into melee range, well, part of the "Red Mage" concept is that you're okay with being in melee.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the side topic.

Cheliax

As to cleric VS witch; all points ARE valid. AC is a big drawback of a full Mage-type, you essentially have to keep Mage armor up. At 5 with the fly hex you can attack out of reach and bombard fire down on your hapless opponents; or use mirror image before going to combat. The BAB isn't such a big deal; over the course of your 11 levels you lose 3 BAB relative (at 3, 7, and 11)... and twice as much VS a full fighter. This hurts, but you are also a far more powerful spellcaster, and damage output is higher at all levels. You also get more skill points, and some very handy hexes (Sleep is the "power one", flight and disguise give you some great utility and help with faction missions, etc).

If yOu want to be better melee at a slight spell cost, go fighter @ 1 and Eldrich knight @ 7. You end up 2 levels behind on spellcasting, but get a weapon that does d12 damage (Luceren hammer), much better BAB, and 2 extra feats (furious focus and weapon focus to maximize damage). Also 1 extra HP / level 7-11 and 2 extra @ 1

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thalin wrote:
As to cleric VS witch; all points ARE valid. AC is a big drawback of a full Mage-type, you essentially have to keep Mage armor up. At 5 with the fly hex you can attack out of reach and bombard fire down on your hapless opponents; or use mirror image before going to combat. The BAB isn't such a big deal; over the course of your 11 levels you lose 3 BAB relative (at 3, 7, and 11)... and twice as much VS a full fighter. This hurts, but you are also a far more powerful spellcaster, and damage output is higher at all levels. You also get more skill points, and some very handy hexes (Sleep is the "power one", flight and disguise give you some great utility and help with faction missions, etc).

It really sounds more like "typical caster who can hit back if he has to", except him being in melee is still something of an "emergency" as he's not going to last long defensively. Also, it's straying pretty far from the "Red Mage" vibe. ;)

Quote:
If yOu want to be better melee at a slight spell cost, go fighter @ 1 and Eldrich knight @ 7. You end up 2 levels behind on spellcasting, but get a weapon that does d12 damage (Luceren hammer), much better BAB, and 2 extra feats (furious focus and weapon focus to maximize damage). Also 1 extra HP / level 7-11 and 2 extra @ 1

You still have the ASF versus AC issue, though. If you got a mithral chain shirt and Arcane Armor Training, you could get your AC up to 16 (plus enhancements) eventually. A tad higher if you also go for a mithral shield. But that's gonna get pricey fast.


Jiggy wrote:


7) First person to post a magus gets slapped. Yes, it might be the easiest/best option, but seriously, let's try a little harder than that and explore our other options.

May i ask exactly why you dislike the magus so much? there must be some reason why you dont want to use it...

And yes, it IS the best class for what your trying to do. it fits every single one of your requisites EXCEPT for that one, so what is the problem?

Why are you trying to make something that does the magus' job better than the magus? because the ONLY thing that MIGHT be mechanically closer to the red mage than a pure magus is the eldritch knight, and even then that's only because he doesnt cast spells and use a sword in the same action!

This sounds exactly like me when i trie to play a dragoon. I refused to accept pretty much any answer given to me because it wasnt a 100% match to what i saw as the 'dragoon vibe'. Outside of specifically writing your own 'Red Mage' class, there really isn't anything else that can be said here i don't think...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I disallowed Magus posts because if I didn't, I'd get a couple of "Play a magus" posts and the thread would be done. No exploration, no discovery, no alternate options, no learning, etc. By prohibiting the obvious, there has been sooooo much meat in this thread. People (including myself) had to think and get creative. I forced us all to put in the work and, in my opinion, there've already been great rewards.

For instance, the witch build recently suggested - despite not being a flavor match for a Red Mage - made me reexamine the relative importance of stats versus BAB progression for melee effectiveness. Similarly, going through several iterations of cleric builds helped me better understand the relative value of the different stats in achieving the goals at hand - I initially overvalued DEX a lot and have come away with a better sense of stat priority.

Things like that get the creative juices flowing and let you take more away from the thread than the stated goal. Yes, I have Red Mage options, but I also have other ideas and perspectives that I can apply to future endeavors. I wouldn't have gotten any of that if the thread died after the second or third magus build.

As a certain game designer I'm rather fond of likes to say, "restriction breeds creativity".

Shadow Lodge

What about the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer? Off the top of my head

Gains
(or may trade?) Fort Save (for Will?)
Gains 3/4 BaB
D8 HP
Trades Bluff for Intimidate
Gets 1 Martial Weapon Prof
And can freely cast in Light Armor

Loses 1 Spell Known
and 1 Spell per Spell Level.

I may be off a little, but something like that.

Also, this is before the Bloodline Sorcerer, so I'd probably keep it that way.

Also, what about a non-shapeshifting Druid? A good focus of both offensive and defensive spells with some healing, and "other" spells. Can wear restricted armor and fight with many weapons.

What exactly do you mean by Red Mage, by the way? I'm assuming FF1, a slight blend of offensive and defensive magic and otherwise basically a Bard without Perform or skill points.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Beckett wrote:
What about the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer?

Remember, the first rule I listed is PFS-legal. Open up 3.5 material and you could do anything!

Quote:
Also, what about a non-shapeshifting Druid? A good focus of both offensive and defensive spells with some healing, and "other" spells. Can wear restricted armor and fight with many weapons.

Hey, yeah, how come nobody thought of that yet? Let's explore it! Care to do the honors of the first draft, Beckett?

Quote:
What exactly do you mean by Red Mage, by the way? I'm assuming FF1, a slight blend of offensive and defensive magic and otherwise basically a Bard without Perform or skill points.

Yes, FF1. He used slightly lighter weapons and armor than the fighter (thus dealing less damage and taking more, but only slightly), but was way beyond the other mages in this respect. He could also cast all the basic, straightforward spells from both black and white magic (like elemental damage and healing spells, plus certain buffs like haste), but couldn't cast top-level spells or some of the more specialized stuff (like anti-undead white magic, for instance).

Shadow Lodge

To be honest, I've never been a fan off nor well versed in the Druid. Never even liked the concept of it as a base class, let alone a core one. I do know they have some of the best spells in the game, that their "restrictions" are very ineffectual over all, and that they can fairly easily do just about anything. And some of their Domains are much much better than most Cleric Domains.

But honestly what you would probably want, would be along the lines of dropping both the Animal Companion and the ability to Shapeshift (without Spells), for slightly increased Spellcasting ability.

Probably look at something like
14-16 in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, and care less about Int or Cha.

*Might either go Archery or Long Spear (Elven = Longsword, Half Elf = Any One, Half-Orc = Falchion).
*3/4 BaB
*D8 and Con means good HP, not great, but decent.
*4+Int Skills will always be (a little too) nice
*Spells for nearly anything, from turning your staff into a beatstick supreme, to AC buffs (barkskin is a nice one that few other get, and stacks with almost ever other dang AC buff), spells to increase manuverability like Exp Retreat, already has a good deal of your beloved Fire spells, and other offensive/defensive elemental goodness, Wall of Thorns and Entangle.

Cheliax

Seems like a Dragon totem Druid (fire domain) would one-up the cleric

Human Druid (Dragon)
Str: 18
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 7

Weild Spear

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Med Armor, Heavy Armor (get Dragon Full Plate)

2nd level aspects out a lot to add toughness. At 8th goes for bite.

Druids have a lot better fire spells than clerics, and the transformations buff you up. Spontaneously standard round dropping out guys is cool too. And you have healing.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Beckett wrote:
And some of their Domains are much much better than most Cleric Domains.

Um... Their domains ARE cleric domains:

PRD wrote:
Nature Bond (Ex): At 1st level, a druid forms a bond with nature. This bond can take one of two forms. The first is a close tie to the natural world, granting the druid one of the following cleric domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather.

That's if you give up your animal companion (which the Red Mage obviously would) - you get to pick from a limited list of the cleric's domains. Unless there's some other list of druid-only domains I wasn't aware of...?

1 to 50 of 68 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Conversions / How would you build a Red Mage? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.