Making cash with Bluff


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Ok, my current character is a Wizard2/Rogue3 with the charlatan archetype. He's pretty much skill based and combat is definitely not his forte. Anyway, he needs cash and killing monsters and taking their stuff is not really a viable option.

What he does have is an 18 INT, a base 19 bluff, a 17 diplomacy and the Convincing Lie feat.
We're playing in a city campaign set in Absalom.

How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?


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1) I don't understand why this character exists.
2) What do you calculate as the average earnings of a professional in a single day? Take some fraction of that multiply by your Bluff check. Or just treat your Bluff as a Perform Check for calculating the amount of money earned in a day by perform.

The answer is not really a lot. If you want to con someone out of something specific, that's a different thing altogether.


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Matt Gwinn wrote:

Ok, my current character is a Wizard2/Rogue3 with the charlatan archetype. He's pretty much skill based and combat is definitely not his forte. Anyway, he needs cash and killing monsters and taking their stuff is not really a viable option.

What he does have is an 18 INT, a base 19 bluff, a 17 diplomacy and the Convincing Lie feat.
We're playing in a city campaign set in Absalom.

How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?

I think your best bet is to see if your GM will allow you to use Bluff in place of Profession or Craft.


Subbing Bluff for Perform will garner 3d6 GP per day on average
Subbing Bluff for Profession will garner 10GP per week on average

At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.


Matt Gwinn wrote:

Subbing Bluff for Perform will garner 3d6 GP per day on average

Subbing Bluff for Profession will garner 10GP per week on average

At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.

Welcome to the world of the adventurer. See my response point #1.

And if you think backstabbing people and taking their wallets is going to net you anywhere near what perform or profession will net you in a day, you are seriously overestimating your ability or your targets. Unless you are targeting nobles - a foolhardy endeavor - you will be targeting people making 3d6 gold a day or 10 gold a week. Think about it.


Matt Gwinn wrote:


At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.

In which case you'd have to deal with all the consequences that entails.


Matt Gwinn wrote:

How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?

Well, first, to answer your question: I'd let you run petty cons (short-changing people, etc) as per Perform rules, or let you sell stuff using Profession rules -- and if you wanted to go for a big score (what your character seems to be built for), I would, in fact "make a whole adventure out of it".

Which then leads me to ask a similar question to Cartigan's -- if you don't want to make "whole adventures" about running those cons, I'm also not sure why you'd make a character like that.


TarkXT wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:


At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.

In which case you'd have to deal with all the consequences that entails.

This is my exact plan with my Rogue(cutpurse)/wiz/Arcane Trickster. Though I'm not steaing wallets (profit by volume) I'm stealing magic items (value). Plus using a crap ton of magic/trickery to cover my tracks.


I would let you play poker in town and let you have a 60% (50+skill/2) chance to double your money, and a 40% to loose it all. You can bet as much as you want, but 1 try per day.
But you would have to swear by your favorite dice that you don't bicker when you loose.


The character IS a con man, but the campaign isn't built around just him, so it wouldn't be very fair to build entire adventures around him conning someone. It's also not the character's primary goal in the campaign, he just needs some cash to fund his major plans.

The character's primary goal is to get revenge on a wizard that framed and put to death my character's only friend (and is also an enemy of other PCs). He intends to ruin the guy's life through manipulation of public opinion and mind games. In order to do that, he needs starting funds to establish and maintain multiple fake identities, pay for multiple safe houses and buy protective spells to keep the bad guy from detecting him as the source of his trouble.

In a city like Absalom where the level of any random NPC's wealth could range from a pocket full of coppers to a fortress full of jewels, it's not outside the bounds of reason to be able to con a few hundred gold off a guy on the street with a simple con. Obviously conning someone out of their life savings would be an intricate endeavor, but conning a noble out of what is, to him, effectively loose change shouldn't be too difficult with a simple 20 to 40 bluff check.


I'm thinking you watch way too much TV. Running a con, even for something as low as several hundred dollars, is not something you do by just walking up to random people on the street, even in a relatively wealthy city. Conning people out of money takes a significant amount of time as well as skill.

Were I your GM, I would go with pretty much everyone else who's responded to you so far, and run it as either a perform check (three card monte style street hustling) or profession (the guy on the corner selling rolexs with ticking second hands). Anything more and it would be an adventure.


Just throwing more support in for what the others have said. It sounds like you built a character around big-time conning, but you're in a group or with a GM who doesn't want to run that kind of game.

If it's just supposed to happen 'off screen', Perform or Profession equivalent income seems appropriate.

If the over-arching goal of the campaign is to get back at or kill this wizard npc, why not make one phase of the campaign this big con. that way you get to play the guy you want to play, and you can include your other party members in your phase of the plan, then the plan can culminate with the final combat showdown. Just a suggestion.


Anyone else have scenes from leverage going through their minds?


Matt Gwinn wrote:


In a city like Absalom where the level of any random NPC's wealth could range from a pocket full of coppers to a fortress full of jewels, it's not outside the bounds of reason to be able to con a few hundred gold off a guy on the street with a simple con.

As a PC, you don't understand what gold is actually worth.

Conning a few hundred gold off some guy in the street is like approaching some guy at a stop light and convincing him to give you his car then driving off in it.


To expand on the above, those who have money have the means to protect it. Either with bodyguards, magic, or simply not carrying the money on them to begin with.

Frankly if you're going to render it into skill checks outside of actual encounters then you are only going to get the kind of money small time hustlers can get. Sorry, that's it, that's all. Elaborate cons, sans, Oceans Eleve, require lots of cooperation, investment, and time. Hence, an adventure.

This, without mincing terms, is you asking us to endorse rendering what amounts to a grand adventure where you gain thousands or hundreds of gold into one or two skill checks.


Fraust wrote:

I'm thinking you watch way too much TV. Running a con, even for something as low as several hundred dollars, is not something you do by just walking up to random people on the street, even in a relatively wealthy city. Conning people out of money takes a significant amount of time as well as skill.

Were I your GM, I would go with pretty much everyone else who's responded to you so far, and run it as either a perform check (three card monte style street hustling) or profession (the guy on the corner selling rolexs with ticking second hands). Anything more and it would be an adventure.

On top of that most NPC's don't just have 100's of gp in their pockets, even if they are wealthy. If they did they would be hard pressed to give it up to some random person, and they may not be someone you want to con anyway. I would tell a player in my game that being a PC would not protect him from any repercussions of picking on the wrong person. Picking on a fantasy land equivalent of a mobster will get the same results as it would in real life.


Matt Gwinn wrote:
Obviously conning someone out of their life savings would be an intricate endeavor, but conning a noble out of what is, to him, effectively loose change shouldn't be too difficult with a simple 20 to 40 bluff check.

Apparently this is your take on the situation, but so far roughly 0% of the dozen or so people posting here agree with it.

With my GM hat on: anything more than Craft/Profession equivalent money and it isn't happening offstage, and probably if it happens onstage you're getting complications and/or powerful future enemies. You con a guy out of a hundred gold to whom it's just pocket change? Well, now a guy to whom a hundred gold is merely pocket change wants you dead or punished as a matter of pride and is probably willing to throw a lot more money down to make it happen.


What you REALLY need to do is rob magic item shop cash register/safes at the end of the business day.


Not that i particularly like band based wagons, but I agree with most everyone here. If you just want to make a few simple checks, its perform or proffession money. If you want to con someone out of significant amounts of wealth it will be a whole lot more then that. You would have to gather information and research to find a suitable mark. Do more research and come up with a plan to swindle said mark. Then make quite a few skill checks as you go through the various motions of your con.

See the Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch for details on how this might play out. However I would put the breaks on something like this hard if it wasnt an intrigue kind of campaign, because it would require alot of table time, and if only one character can participate i wouldn't move forward with it as a dm. Though the player might be able to come up with creative roles for each of hte pcs in the con (the muscle, the brains, the religious contact etc) in which case i'd be ok with it.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

You're a wizard. Rent some store space and sell your spellcasting services. Since you can only cast first level spells, at book price that's 20gp per spell slot, minus maybe a 20% cut for the business space from the owner. Assuming you've got a solid INT, that's 60gp a day easily made right there for a 2nd-level wizard. Even more so if people buy cantrip castings from you.


To Fatespinner: That is only 60gp if you are lucky enough to have 3 people come to you who want to pay to have a first level spell cast. This has been shot down by every DM I have ever tried it with. People will go to the established wizards.

My Dm basically only ever allowed me to make Profession/Perform money like that as well. How many people with 20gp to spare need a first level spell cast and don't have a contact or ally who can cast it.

Scarab Sages

Sleep-Walker wrote:

To Fatespinner: That is only 60gp if you are lucky enough to have 3 people come to you who want to pay to have a first level spell cast. This has been shot down by every DM I have ever tried it with. People will go to the established wizards.

My Dm basically only ever allowed me to make Profession/Perform money like that as well. How many people with 20gp to spare need a first level spell cast and don't have a contact or ally who can cast it.

It would depend on the situation.

Example:
You are a member of a wizard guild.
People pay the wizard guild to cast spells.
You get 50% of the cost, and they send you out to do random spells for people.


How exactly would you use bluff to con people day after day, anyways?


Matt Gwinn wrote:

Subbing Bluff for Perform will garner 3d6 GP per day on average

Subbing Bluff for Profession will garner 10GP per week on average

At those rates I'd be better off just backstabbing people and taking their wallets.

10 GP a month is an average life style so you'd be living high on 4 times the average citizens income.


Wow, you guys are brutal.
In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit
Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Isn't that the point of a rogue to begin with? To make money as easily as possible?

I discussed this with my GM and she suggested using my bluff as opposed to slight of hand to get people to just hand me their money. I'm cool with that.

As far as how I'd convince people to just give me money, the rules give a -20 to a bluff roll if the "lie is impossible". with a 19 bluff that means I can walk into a jewelry store, tell the clerk that I'm the new owner and only have to beat his sense motive to walk out with the whole shop. If I take only a -10 (lie is far-fetched) I can at least convince him I've already paid for something I haven't paid for.

And if I spend a hero point for a +8 it's even easier.

Will there be repercussions later? Sure, but aren't there always?


As a 5th-level character with those stats, you shouldn't be getting your hands dirty; you should have your own thieves guild/gang/whatever.

If you/the DM isn't prepared to make an adventure out of it, work with her to come up with some rough-and-ready rules to establish an income. Don't bother too much with figures for profit/loss, guild members getting caught, etc., unless you want to add a bit of uncertainty to it.


Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

Except casting spells isn't using skills. No one is saying a Wizard can make 120gp an hour using Knowledge checks. You are saying "I lie to people and make them give me more money than they could even contemplate owning at any one time." No.

And why wouldn't the Clerk BE the owner? Or the owner's son/nephew/brother? I mean, this is a 15th century world here, not modern megaconglomerateorations.

MacFetus wrote:
As a 5th-level character with those stats, you shouldn't be getting your hands dirty; you should have your own thieves guild/gang/whatever.

So a 5th level mix-n-match character with a lot of Bluff can do better than a 7th level Bard with 25 Cha and Leadership?


Cartigan wrote:
Except casting spells isn't using skills. No one is saying a Wizard can make 120gp an hour using Knowledge checks. You are saying "I lie to people and make them give me more money than they could even contemplate owning at any one time." No.

It's not just skills, it's also levels, all of my feats and rogue talents. And 120 gold is not more than a person can contemplate, especially in Absalom where you're lucky if you get an flat house with a monthly rent as low as 120gp. 120gp may be a life savings for a commoner, but and expert or Aristocrat could easily have that kind of money accessible.

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And why wouldn't the Clerk BE the owner? Or the owner's son/nephew/brother? I mean, this is a 15th century world here, not modern megaconglomerateorations.

Be cause it's Absalom which has a population of 300,000 people and I chose to go into the shop that had a clerk that wasn't an owner.

Quote:


So a 5th level mix-n-match character with a lot of Bluff can do better than a 7th level Bard with 25 Cha and Leadership?

No, but Leadership grants you LOYAL followers. Rogues in a theives guild are not loyal unless their is profit in it. I've played in tones of adventures where the head of theives guild was around 5th level.

Shadow Lodge

as Cartigan said earlier in the post that he didn't understand why this character exists... I am STUCK on the how... at 5th level those stats can't be BASE stats or something was broken on the making... CHA has to be way high, and every level a rank put into each, and then burning feats to make him extra believable, and traits as well... then adding in race mods to CHA... maybe close to but doesn't seem to add up

and I also agree with everyone else... short time cons give you short time money... big time cons give you big time money and they each usually take about the time of that descriptive adjective used...


Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit
Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Isn't that the point of a rogue to begin with? To make money as easily as possible?

I discussed this with my GM and she suggested using my bluff as opposed to slight of hand to get people to just hand me their money. I'm cool with that.

As far as how I'd convince people to just give me money, the rules give a -20 to a bluff roll if the "lie is impossible". with a 19 bluff that means I can walk into a jewelry store, tell the clerk that I'm the new owner and only have to beat his sense motive to walk out with the whole shop. If I take only a -10 (lie is far-fetched) I can at least convince him I've already paid for something I haven't paid for.

And if I spend a hero point for a +8 it's even easier.

Will there be repercussions later? Sure, but aren't there always?

PC wizards normally adventure, not setup shop so no, I dont expect the player to be making 120 gp a day trying to sell spells.

Actually the rules have two stances on impossible. There is impossible which you mentioned and impossible as in impossible.

prd wrote:
Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).

They should have used the +20 modifier for highly improbable, and impossible for when things just wont happen.

As for your GM allowing it, that is on him, but at least now you know not to expect it at most people's tables.


Matt Gwinn wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Except casting spells isn't using skills. No one is saying a Wizard can make 120gp an hour using Knowledge checks. You are saying "I lie to people and make them give me more money than they could even contemplate owning at any one time." No.
It's not just skills, it's also levels, all of my feats and rogue talents. And 120 gold is not more than a person can contemplate, especially in Absalom where you're lucky if you get an flat house with a monthly rent as low as 120gp. 120gp may be a life savings for a commoner, but and expert or Aristocrat could easily have that kind of money accessible.

120gp rent a month? Yeah, you are wanting to make that a day.

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Be cause it's Absalom which has a population of 300,000 people and I chose to go into the shop that had a clerk that wasn't an owner.

Looked that up in the yellow pages did you?


Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

And he can. Either by breaking into places and looting them, or making sleight of hand checks to lift coinpurses of rich folk -- of course, rich folk tend to have bodyguards, so that's a little harder than fleecing lower-class merchants and the like.

Matt Gwinn wrote:
A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?

Ah, that's a false comparison. Level 3 wizard who does that is now out of spells. FOR THE DAY. No more casting. 120gp is his *daily* limit, not just "3 rounds worth of work" -- realistically, you should probably add the hour he spent at his spellbook and the 8 hours of sleep to those 3 rounds, no?

In those 9 hours and 3 rounds, how many individual small people can you pick pocket, bluff out of small coins, or - you know - actually case the joint and burgle? I bet you can come up with 120gp.

What you're trying to do is to do it 100% safely without dealing with the bigger risks that come (automatically) with bigger rewards -- you're literally pulling quick scams on people who only have handfuls of silver on them - and so you're getting ahead every day (and, to remind you, making way more money that the guys you're fleecing) without putting yourself in any real danger.

Matt Gwinn wrote:
Isn't that the point of a rogue to begin with? To make money as easily as possible?

No. That's the point of some rogues. That may even be the point of your rogue -- but that's now what the whole class is about. Remember: Han Solo = Rogue. Didn't see him looting the Alliance, did we?

Matt Gwinn wrote:
I discussed this with my GM and she suggested using my bluff as opposed to slight of hand to get people to just hand me their money. I'm cool with that.

And I'm sure you met some people who do just that in the real world.

Stop me if you've heard this one (or a variation on it):
"Hi. Sorry to approach you like this, but I was robbed and <blah, blah> wife at the police station <blah> had to go home to get id <blah> but don't have cab fare <blah>, can you just lend me $10 so I can cab across town to go get her? Oh, write down your name and adddress and I'll mail it to you! I promise!"

Matt Gwinn wrote:
As far as how I'd convince people to just give me money, the rules give a -20 to a bluff roll if the "lie is impossible". with a 19 bluff that means I can walk into a jewelry store, tell the clerk that I'm the new owner and only have to beat his sense motive to walk out with the whole shop. If I take only a -10 (lie is far-fetched) I can at least convince him I've already paid for something I haven't paid for.

A few comments here.

One: you're now planning and RPing something -- and that's what we've all said you should do with your skills to make the bigger strikes.

Two: Any jewelry store in a world where magic is available that keeps things on hand will, likely, have magical protections. You probably can't scry or teleport into their vaults, for instance. I would probably say, too, that they're going to hire people who are good at negotiating and, for that matter, reading people [decent wis, and probably Alertness or Skill Focus (Sense Motive)] and probably back that up with things like Zone of Truth, which is a low level spell and cheap enough to get cast -- and well worth it when the alternative is people like you robbing the place.

Three: I would suggest that you're not likely to get an "employee" at a store like that who isn't a family member of the owner or the owner themselves, since it seems a very stupid idea to hire people at 1 silver a day to sell/deal with your wares that are all worth 25gp at the very least.

Four: There's probably a policy demanding receipts for stuff you've pre-paid -- but then, that's where a good use of skills might work for you.

Matt Gwinn wrote:
And if I spend a hero point for a +8 it's even easier.

Well, if you want to waste your Hero Points, sure -- they're yours. I don't think that's super heroic and later when you might need them to survive, well - your call.

Matt Gwinn wrote:
Will there be repercussions later? Sure, but aren't there always?

I would say, here, as someone who's played rogues more than a few times... No. Not if you do it right. (First rule of Shadowrun: The best Runs are the ones where the corp never knows you were even there.)


Tilnar wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.
And he can. Either by breaking into places and looting them, or making sleight of hand checks to lift coinpurses of rich folk -- of course, rich folk tend to have bodyguards, so that's a little harder than fleecing lower-class merchants and the like.

Why is everyone so opposed to using Bluff, but slight of hand for picking pockets is totally cool? The result is the same.

Quote:


Matt Gwinn wrote:
A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Ah, that's a false comparison. Level 3 wizard who does that is now out of spells. FOR THE DAY. No more casting.

I don't see your point. I'm talking about making 120gp in a whole day, not 3 rounds. If anything it's unfair to the rogue because he needs to waste a whole day while the wizard can spend thevast majority of the day spending his 120 gold.

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In those 9 hours and 3 rounds, how many individual small people can you pick pocket, bluff out of small coins, or - you know - actually case the joint and burgle? I bet you can come up with 120gp.

So now you are agreeing with me? Did you think I was expecting to make 120gp in just 3 rounds using Bluff?

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What you're trying to do is to do it 100% safely without dealing with the bigger risks

Um, no. Where did you get that? He'd be breaking the law and ripping off important people. I fully expect (and look forward to) that coming back to bite me later.

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you're literally pulling quick scams on people who only have handfuls of silver on them - and so you're getting ahead every day (and, to remind you, making way more money that the guys you're fleecing) without putting yourself in any real danger.

When did I ever say I'd be fleecing commoners/poor people?

Would we even be having this conversation if I used Charm Person, which any 1st level caster can cast?


Tilnar wrote:

A few comments here.

One: you're now planning and RPing something -- and that's what we've all said you should do with your skills to make the bigger strikes.

I never intended not to RP it or plan. I was just trying to get a reasonable GP amount I should be expecting from a day's work with the tools available to me.

What I didn't want was to devote 5 hours of game time to it. I have no issues with devoting a few scenes to it. Ya know, about the same time a bunch of fighter types might spend killing a room full of monsters.

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Two: Any jewelry store in a world where magic is available that keeps things on hand will, likely, have magical protections. You probably can't scry or teleport into their vaults, for instance.

Yes and I'd fully expect those modifiers to be applied where applicable. But I don't plan on scrying, nor do I even need to get into the vault. I don't even plan on necessarily getting away clean. Eventually, any lie I might tell will get revealed as such. My point is that ripping off a jewelry store with MY character's skills should be just as easy or difficult as a fighter using his skills to walk into a shop, split the shopkeeper's head open with an axe and walking out with a moderately priced piece of jewelry.

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I would probably say, too, that they're going to hire people who are good at negotiating and, for that matter, reading people [decent wis, and probably Alertness or Skill Focus (Sense Motive)] and probably back that up with things like Zone of Truth, which is a low level spell and cheap enough to get cast -- and well worth it when the alternative is people like you robbing the place.

I never said I wanted it to be easy. Bluff is an opposed roll after all. And Zone of truth only lasts a round per level. Are they going to pay to have it cast every time a customer walks in the door? That's a good way to run yourself out of business.

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Three: I would suggest that you're not likely to get an "employee" at a store like that who isn't a family member of the owner or the owner themselves, since it seems a very stupid idea to hire people at 1 silver a day to sell/deal with your wares that are all worth 25gp at the very least.

That's what local knowledge checks are for. I wouldn't pick a spot or person at random. My character isn't stupid.

Also, it would be pretty stupid to pay someone with the high sense motive and negotiating skills you discussed 1 silver a day. A shop with the cash can afford to pay for loyalty. And again, we're not talking about day laborers here. I'm talking about ripping off Experts and Aristocrats who are generally going to have and make way more money than a commoner.


Cartigan wrote:

120gp rent a month? Yeah, you are wanting to make that a day.

Plenty of people have lost more than a month's rent in less time. Ever been to vegas?
And that's for a flat house. A town house can cost a thousand. A manor or keep can cost even more depending on which district you're in. Rent for a small keep can run you 10,000gp a month

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Be cause it's Absalom which has a population of 300,000 people and I chose to go into the shop that had a clerk that wasn't an owner.
Looked that up in the yellow pages did you?

Guide to Absalom actually. Useful book, I recommend it.

Pathfinder Wiki also lists it.


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You wanted opinions; you got a lot of them. It's just that no one's telling you what you want to hear.


Matt Gwinn wrote:
Tilnar wrote:
Matt Gwinn wrote:

Wow, you guys are brutal.

In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.
And he can. Either by breaking into places and looting them, or making sleight of hand checks to lift coinpurses of rich folk -- of course, rich folk tend to have bodyguards, so that's a little harder than fleecing lower-class merchants and the like.
Why is everyone so opposed to using Bluff, but slight of hand for picking pockets is totally cool? The result is the same.

Nobody's objecting to using Bluff instead of Sleight of Hand.

However.. if you're reducing it to a few anonymous rolls rather than playing it all out, as per your original statement -- then I as a GM (which is what you were asking at the beginning) tend to assume that you're going after normal folk (whether bluffing for small cons, or picking pockets), rather than, for instance, the rich merchants who are probably more on the ball (sense motive) and tend to have bodyguards.

As such, you don't get hits of several hundred gp each time -- and over the course of a day, you wouldn't likely be making a huge amount of coin.

In addition, and here's where I would treat them differently -- using Bluff, you're not getting everything in the poor sap's coinpurse, you're only going to get what you can talk someone out of giving up (eg - not the money he needs to feed his family).

So, the per-day income would be lower. Having said that, however, you also wouldn't be attracting too much attention to yourself -- the nice people you conned would know they gave you money, so they're not going to run to the nearest guard when they go to pay for something with money they don't have.

In other words, you're getting smaller takes, but from more people and with less (downstream) risk.

Quote:
Tilnar wrote:


Matt Gwinn wrote:
A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Ah, that's a false comparison. Level 3 wizard who does that is now out of spells. FOR THE DAY. No more casting.
I don't see your point. I'm talking about making 120gp in a whole day, not 3 rounds. If anything it's unfair to the rogue because he needs to waste a whole day while the wizard can spend thevast majority of the day spending his 120 gold.

My point is that in your earlier post you implied that a wizard can make 120gp in 3 rounds, with the "lingering" logic that they could make even more -- I was merely stating that was a hard limit, and assumes that they're completely willing to exhaust one of their class features to do it.

You think it's unfair that the rogue would take longer? Here's a difference: That night, the rogue and the wizard are attacked. Wizard's got no spells and is pooched. Rogue -- not so much.

Quote:
Tilnar wrote:
In those 9 hours and 3 rounds, how many individual small people can you pick pocket, bluff out of small coins, or - you know - actually case the joint and burgle? I bet you can come up with 120gp.
So now you are agreeing with me? Did you think I was expecting to make 120gp in just 3 rounds using Bluff?

I am agreeing that you can make that kind of coin if you're willing to plan for it, rather than just running small cons -- you'll notice I said *burgle*, for one thing...

Quote:
Tilnar wrote:
One: you're now planning and RPing something -- and that's what we've all said you should do with your skills to make the bigger strikes.

I never intended not to RP it or plan. I was just trying to get a reasonable GP amount I should be expecting from a day's work with the tools available to me.

What I didn't want was to devote 5 hours of game time to it. I have no issues with devoting a few scenes to it. Ya know, about the same time a bunch of fighter types might spend killing a room full of monsters.

Ah, well, this is totally different -- and I can't speak for everyone, but I suspect that this (right here) is where the miscommunication lies.

Your original request was about how to deal with this via a few quick rolls - not an actual encounter - and so we all responded that you'd treat it like Perform or Profession (because of the assumptions that we made, all of which are above).

You then jumped up and down on us because you didn't like our answers and we kept trying to explain them.

However, that being said, here we go:

Actually hitting something that you're going to play out (and not just make a few Bluff rolls) is an encounter -- just like any other -- and so it should pay off based on the CR of that encounter.


Matt Gwinn wrote:


Yes and I'd fully expect those modifiers to be applied where applicable. But I don't plan on scrying, nor do I even need to get into the vault. I don't even plan on necessarily getting away clean. Eventually, any lie I might tell will get revealed as such. My point is that ripping off a jewelry store with MY character's skills should be just as easy or difficult as a fighter using his skills to walk into a shop, split the shopkeeper's head open with an axe and walking out with a moderately priced piece of jewelry.

Your character's "skills" are "lying really well." While that is beneficial in several methods of money acquirement, it is not, itself, a money acquiring skills.

Storekeeper: "Welcome to Bob's Emporium of stuff."
You: "Hi Bob, I'm the new owner, give me all your stuff."
Storekeeper Bob, owner of Bob's Emporium: "Get out.

You: "Hi, I ordered an item and I am coming to pick it up."
Storekeeper: "Do you have a receipt?"
You: "No, but I DEFINITELY ordered it; can I have it anyway?"
Storekeeper: "Get out.

You have exactly zero skill that would generate any sort of income by itself, legit or otherwise.

Using Bluff for perform? Sure. Using Bluff to fleece everyone in Absolom out of everything they own because you twinked it out, no.

Shadow Lodge

Like Tilnar said, its an encounter type scenario and with what Cartigan just pointed out, by itself, bluff will get you nothing really... but its an encounter so add some razzle dazzle and charm the pants off anyone you pick out as your schmuck... but it might take awhile cause its an encounter and you may even find yourself having to come back to this NPC a couple of times (over the course of a couple of scenes) to get the final payoff of the good pay off con

good money will take longer time


Hai Yu wrote:

Like Tilnar said, its an encounter type scenario and with what Cartigan just pointed out, by itself, bluff will get you nothing really... but its an encounter so add some razzle dazzle and charm the pants off anyone you pick out as your schmuck... but it might take awhile cause its an encounter and you may even find yourself having to come back to this NPC a couple of times (over the course of a couple of scenes) to get the final payoff of the good pay off con

good money will take longer time

Aboslutely. All the best cons do. :)


This is what I asked

Quote:

How much cash do you think such a character can reasonably con people out of in a day without making a whole adventure out of it?

If you were my GM, how would you work it?

I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that that means make a few rolls and watch the cash roll in. Maybe the wording "work it" was the confusing part. work it = mechanics?

I just wanted to know how much gold I could expect to garner without having to commit the whole group to a full blown adventure just to get gold. If making enough gold to meet my character's needs was not reasonable then making a full night of it might be necessary. I never expected everyone to lowball the possible gp amount the way they did.

Honestly I think this discussion has brought up the obvious bias against noncombat characters. People on these boards are more than happy to help each other blatantly break the game when it comes to doing excessive amounts of damage, one shot kills and totally unbalanced character builds, but I make a character built around talking rather than killing and all I get is grief.


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Matt Gwinn wrote:
Honestly I think this discussion has brought up the obvious bias against noncombat characters. People on these boards are more than happy to help each other blatantly break the game when it comes to doing excessive amounts of damage, one shot kills and totally unbalanced character builds, but I make a character built around talking rather than killing and all I get is grief.

Why do you feel compelled to rationalize everyone's disagreement with you as something other than what it is?

It's not exclusive to you or even noncombat characters. Feel free to look at any of RavingDork's threads (which aren't all his threads, to be clear) wherein he asks a question but clearly already has decided on what the right answer is and tries to argue everyone down about it?

You're acting the same way, and you're being treated the same way. It's not demonstrative of any wider principle than that.


Matt Gwinn wrote:


I just wanted to know how much gold I could expect to garner without having to commit the whole group to a full blown adventure just to get gold.

None. "Lying really well" is not a money maker in and of itself.

Quote:
If making enough gold to meet my character's needs was not reasonable then making a full night of it might be necessary.

If you aren't adventuring or independently wealthy, you will NEVER make enough gold to meet the "needs" of a 5th level character if your "needs" are "I need money to do adventuring" type stuff (ie, hunting down a wizard).

Quote:
I never expected everyone to lowball the possible gp amount the way they did.

I assume by "low-ball" you mean "quote the rules about ways to earn gold."

Quote:
Honestly I think this discussion has brought up the obvious bias against noncombat characters.

I'll admit to that. If you can't contribute to combat actively or passively and the game involves combat more than 10% of the time, then why does your character exist?

Shadow Lodge

Tilnar said some really IMPORTANT things about how once it goes from being a low con of "give me your money" and they hand it over TO a bigger con of working the NPC over awhile and finessing the money out of them, using more than just 1 or 2 tricks, so maybe you get even more than you thought you might get, it becomes an ENCOUNTER and the loot you get is equivalent to the loot from what ever the CR level of said encounter would be...

I thought that was pretty clear and helpful...

but if it still is not, you could just ignore everything everyone has said and still go about doing YOUR THING in your game and hopefully you can make some money doing it

this is really only advice and the like going with what is written in the books and how the game is USUALLY played.

The next person you might want to ask about the gp you would earn might be your GM so that way you get the answer that is going to be the most set in stone from any game (but I personally feel that it might be pretty close to what everyone has been saying)


Matt Gwinn wrote:


In my opinion, if a 5th level wizard can make X amount of GP casting spells for people, a rogue should be able to make just as much using his equivalently leveled skills.

The game has skills for making money, and you trying to bypass them. "Real money" is intended to be made adventuring, not with skill checks.

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Why is everyone so opposed to using Bluff, but slight of hand for picking pockets is totally cool? The result is the same.

Sleight of hand carries a very big risk. It is hard to pull it off without being noticed. Your use of bluff is bypassing another skill, and there is little risk for the money involved.

Matt Gwinn wrote:
A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?
Ah, that's a false comparison. Level 3 wizard who does that is now out of spells. FOR THE DAY. No more casting.I don't see your point. I'm talking about making 120gp in a whole day, not 3 rounds. If anything it's unfair to the rogue because he needs to waste a whole day while the wizard can spend thevast majority of the day spending his 120 gold.

Most GM's would not allow a wizard to get 120 a day as I said upthread so that is a nonfactor.

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Would we even be having this conversation if I used Charm Person, which any 1st level caster can cast?

Yes. Charm Person does not make them forget the event or the casting of the spell. They will most likely still try to hunt you down.


wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
Would we even be having this conversation if I used Charm Person, which any 1st level caster can cast?
Yes. Charm Person does not make them forget the event or the casting of the spell. They will most likely still try to hunt you down.

I agree with that, too. Charm Person isn't mind control -- it makes you very friendly toward the person, but that's probably not enough to get you to hand them all your cash.

In the real world - would you empty your wallet and bank account for your best friend (before paying rent, or feeding your family) -- especially in a world without credit (or, rather, with painful credit)?

Yeah, me either.

I might go without something I was supposed to buy, share the food once I've bought it, etc, etc. to help them out -- but then we're back to low coin values.


Tilnar wrote:


Yeah, me either.

It's 'me neither.'

NEITHER!

NNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEIIIIIIITTTTTHHHHHEEEERRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!

/phew! All better now.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Tilnar wrote:


Yeah, me either.

It's 'me neither.'

NEITHER!

NNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEIIIIIIITTTTTHHHHHEEEERRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!

/phew! All better now.

Actually, either is valid (by which I mean, either form) -- although, yes, "Me either" tends to be a colonial rather than British English thing.

The proper thing to have said would be "Neither would I" -- but I was going for the simple response.

Ah, grammar. :) [/endGrammarNerdism]


Hai Yu wrote:

Tilnar said some really IMPORTANT things about how once it goes from being a low con of "give me your money" and they hand it over TO a bigger con of working the NPC over awhile and finessing the money out of them, using more than just 1 or 2 tricks, so maybe you get even more than you thought you might get, it becomes an ENCOUNTER and the loot you get is equivalent to the loot from what ever the CR level of said encounter would be...

I thought that was pretty clear and helpful...

It was very helpful and answered the question to a degree.

Being able to compare to the income potential of a Wizard answered the GP amount part of the question, so I'm pretty set on that.

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this is really only advice and the like going with what is written in the books and how the game is USUALLY played.

We generally don't play the way the game is USUALLY played. Had plenty of that back in college and it wasn't particularly fun after a while. Our games tend to be more story based than dungeon crawls and monster of the week style of play.

Quote:
The next person you might want to ask about the gp you would earn might be your GM

Did that. Started here to see what others thought. My GM is basically back me on this. Honestly I think the argument is because people thought I just wanted to roll Bluff and collect cash without having an Encounter associated with the roll, which I don't get why anyone would make that assumption.


I mostly agree with the reasons given above in terms of general principle and the mechanics

Now, if I was your DM and you made it completely and absolutely clear that NONE (Zip, nada, nothing, empty set, etc) of the money that you scam goes to the character's coffers to buy equipment, I'd probably be more lenient about it. I'd be okay with you using RP to get money that you'll only use for RP purposes (such as the safehouses or maybe some informants/bribes), justifying your allocation of your skills and giving your character an interesting out of combat role

Also, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to talk to your DM into doing an Encounter (as described above). If you arrange it with the DM so the con takes about the same percentage of time in a session as the percentage you represent in a party (that is, 25% in a party of 4, 20% in a party of 5), I think it'd also be very reasonable. Your DM should cater encounters to the strengths of all his characters, not just the combat ones. This money could count towards buying items, but it would have to be divided among the party, as with any encounter. And there would be some consequences (but not as many if you don't do this often)

I don't mean this as an attack, but I want to explain where did the confusion about people thinking you said that you wanted 120gp for 3 rounds was

Quote:

A 3rd level wizard can potentially make 120gp in 3 rounds 100% legit

Shouldn't a 3rd level rogue be able to make at least that much "illegally"?

At least, that was what I understood when I first read it

Anyways, that's my 2cp

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