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So I have a curious question about the Pathfinder Savant prestige class. One ability it offers is Esoteric Magic:
Esoteric Magic (Ex): At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).
On its face, this is clear: you get to add a spell to you class's spell list. If you're a sorcerer , for example, you might want to add Heal to your sorcerer class spell list. So far, so good.
What confuses me is the language about "if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher." Again, this is obvious on its face. In the example above, the spell Heal is not on the sorcerer class spell list, and so while it's a 6th level cleric spell, it would enter the sorcerer's class spell list as a 7th level spell. (Setting aside the cheesy attempt to use the Adept skill list to get it on at a lower level.)
What confuses me in particular is the "if" in that sentence. "If his base class could not normally cast that spell." That "if" implies that the condition following might or might not be true. In other words, the spell being added to the class spell list might actually be one his base class could normally cast. But if the spell were already one that the Pathfinder Savant's based class could cast, it would already be on his class spell list and wouldn't need to be added.
So what does the "if" mean? Am I missing a situation in which the the base class could cast the spell but it wouldn't be on the class spell list? Is it just a poorly worded description, and should read simply: "it is treated as 1 level higher"? Is there a situation in which a spell could be added without it being treated as 1 level higher?
In law school we're trained to interpret rules such that no portion is interpreted as being meaningless. Presumably the authors intended something by that phrase. But I'm having genuine trouble with the "if his base class could not normally cast that spell" portion of the Esoteric Magic description.
Can anyone offer any insight into this?
Such as a sorcerer learning an additional wizard spell, or a wizard adding a new spell to his spellbook. Perhaps it's a rare spell as notated by the DM.
Or the sorcerer learning a spell that is on his/her list but on someone elses list at a lower level. I think there are only a handful of spells you can do this with though.
Example. Cloak of dreams. Bard 5 Sorcerer/Wizard 6. A savant could use this ability to learn the Bard version of the spell allowing early access to Cloak of dreams.
Or Treasure Stitching Bard 4, Wizard 5.
Or Planar adaption, mass Summoner/cleric 6 Sorcerer 7
Or Unwilling Shield Inquisitor 5 Sorcerer 6
Here is a nice one, Euphoric Tranquility Bard 6 sorcerer 8
Wow more than I thought, and this is just from the APG.
The most common examples come from using this ability to pick up spells from the Summoner spell list to add to a sorcerer/wizard list.
Consider adding Summon Monster IX, a 6th level spell for summoners, where it is normally a 9th level spell on the wizard/sorcerer list.
So Sally the Pathfinder Savant (10 Wiz/3 PF Savant) adds Summon Monster IX to the wizard list from the summoner list. SM IX is normally on the wizard list, therefore it is treated as the same level on her new list. She can cast Summon Monster IX using a 6th level spell slot...
Holy crap! Never thought of that. Excellent though.
My plan for my Pathfinder savant was to add Animate objects to his list (he was a wizard) so he could cast permanency and animate objects for Insta-golems.
Um don't you mean summon monster 8? Summoners do not get SM 9 as a spell and the savant can't copy spell-like abilities.
Um don't you mean summon monster 8? Summoners do not get SM 9 as a spell and the savant can't copy spell-like abilities.
Fair enough, though the principle is sound.
Um don't you mean summon monster 8? Summoners do not get SM 9 as a spell and the savant can't copy spell-like abilities.Fair enough, though the principle is sound.
Absolutely! I love the savant. The scroll master ability can cause some wealth by level problems though it is really really awesome. Caster level 1 scrolls and wands are used at the players full caster level. Rather nasty.
I really like this prestige class, scroll mastery also applies to other spell completion items-
I really like this prestige class, scroll mastery also applies to other spell completion items-
such as?
Note to sure specific examples, it is in the feature text. This would be a great one to discuss.
I have been thinking of taking this class for my Pfs cleric for a couple weeks. Not sure if the loss of channeling levels make it viable for my guy though.
Also note that you could simply select a spell off your list normally if playing a spontaneous caster. Say your sorcerer simply wants to have vampiric touch or ray of exhaustion in this case it would simply be an extra spell known.
Also note that you could simply select a spell off your list normally if playing a spontaneous caster. Say your sorcerer simply wants to have vampiric touch or ray of exhaustion in this case it would simply be an extra spell known.Actually, that's one thing that I don't think this ability does. It adds to the class spell list, not to your personal spells known. If you wanted to then use the spell as a spontaneous caster, you would then have to spend a spells known slot on it...
Exactly. It is an ability that has to be used carefully but it can bring some nice options.
Also note that you could simply select a spell off your list normally if playing a spontaneous caster. Say your sorcerer simply wants to have vampiric touch or ray of exhaustion in this case it would simply be an extra spell known.Actually, that's one thing that I don't think this ability does. It adds to the class spell list, not to your personal spells known. If you wanted to then use the spell as a spontaneous caster, you would then have to spend a spells known slot on it...
Yup you are correct -- I must have gotten it confused with similar abilities like the magician archetype bard's ability.
Seeing as this has been necroed - it's worth pointing out here that Seekers of Secrets was a Paizo product designed for use with 3.5, before Pathfinder had its own rulebook.
Content from Seekers of Secrets may well need some tweaking to use with the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
EDIT: No, it isn't worth pointing that out at all, because I'm mistaken. ;)
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Seeing as this has been necroed - it's worth pointing out here that Seekers of Secrets was a Paizo product designed for use with 3.5, before Pathfinder had its own rulebook.
Content from Seekers of Secrets may well need some tweaking to use with the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
It is a Paizo product and it was released after the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. It was written for PFRPG and needs no conversion.
It is a Paizo product and it was released after the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. It was written for PFRPG and needs no conversion.Seeing as this has been necroed - it's worth pointing out here that Seekers of Secrets was a Paizo product designed for use with 3.5, before Pathfinder had its own rulebook.
Content from Seekers of Secrets may well need some tweaking to use with the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Ugh, I must have my chronology list completely screwed up (by two months, it seems). Sorry bout the misinformation!