Okay, so a little background first. I'm going to be playing a 9th level character through a PFS Module. It's scheduled for 3 sessions or so, and we're allowed to make a level 9 version of a current character. After the adventure is over, the sheet ends up tossed, so basically this character will be level 9 only.
So with that in mind, I have a Master of Many Styles/Hungry Ghost Monk that I wanted to build at level 9, and see just how awesome it could be. I'm going for a monk out of a kung fu movie, defensive based. Ya know, the whole parry the opponents attack then strike them back several times. I just think the whole idea is epic. Wont win any DPR competitions, but meh. The conundrum I ended up with, is that I'm not exactly 100% on how some of the styles interact. so I'm going to post the build here with my proposed battle plan, and I'd love someone to pick it apart. Tell me if there's a rules issue with it, so I'm not attempting shenanigans at the game session.
Levels: Human Monk 8 (MoMS/Hungry Ghost) / Fighter 1 (Unarmed Fighter)
Fighter level is taken midprogression
BAB: 7
Stats:
Str 18 (+2 Human Bonus, +2 from stat bumps)
Dex 15 (+2 Stat Item)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 18 (+2 Stat Item)
Cha 7
Feats:
Dodge (Human Bonus)
Crane Style (Level 1 standard)
Crane Wing (Monk 1 Bonus)
Crane Riposte (Monk 2 Bonus)
Snake Style (Fighter 1 Bonus)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Bonus from both fighter and monk)
Mobility (Level 3 standard)
Combat Reflexes (Level 5 standard)
Snake Fang (Monk 6 Bonus)
Panther Style (Level 7 standard)
Panther Claw (level 9 standard)
Assuming he's got an Amulet of Might Fists +2 that puts him at a +13/+8 to hit for 1d10+6 damage unarmed strike.
okay. I think thats most of the background out of the way. So here's my battle plan. Please feel free to rip apart why it won't work, because I want to make sure I'm not breaking any rules to do so.
Lets assume this is round 2, I've spent my swift action in round 1 to activate all 3 style feats (Fuse Style, level 8 MoMS). I'm attacking a humanoid with 5 ft reach. Lets assume I start adjacent to him, for ease of this scenario.
My monk attacks him defensively (-1 to attack, +2 AC). Wonderful. I hit! yay. Then my monk starts moving away, provoking an attack of opportunity. The sucker falls for it, and attacks me. My monk uses Crane Wing to negate his attack. He then uses Crane Riposte to use an AoO to strike back. Another hit! Now, since the AoO for moving missed, Panther Claw activates, and I hit him with another attack! No AoO for this one, as Panther Claw is just a free action.
So we're doing pretty good, 3 attacks, right? all at my highest BAB basically. But wait, there's more. Snake Fang has also activated! I get another attack using Snake Style (spending my second AoO) and if that hits, can spend my immediate action to hit him yet again!
So, 5 hits in a row. Wonderful. Not really that much better than a monk flurrying, but my monk can also move, provoking more attacks with Panther Claw and making even more. But that's neither here nor there.
Now we come to the crux of my issue. Can the AoO from Snake Fang and the AoO from Crane Riposte both activate off the missed attack?
Are there any other issues with this battle plan? it's fairly involved, and won't work terribly often, but I'm still quite in love with it.
If it won't work, the entire crane line seems reasonably superfluous, I guess. Is there a better style chain that I can use?
Question the second: How much AC do you need to reliably not be hit around level 9? My monk will start with a base AC of 21. Assuming the nice mage uses mage armor on him, he'll be at 25. Add a ki point for +4, mobility for +4 when I'm provoking via moving, and +2 for fighting defensively, that puts me at AC 31 normally, or 35 when provoking AoOs.
Is 35 AC enough to have people reliably miss me, if they don't crit?
Question the third: If instead of Crane Riposte, I got Panther Parry, and actually got to hit them before they hit me, could I declare I was fighting defensively at that point, in order to avoid having to start next to the opponent and hit them before moving? (Crane Style stuff only works if you're fighting defensively or total defense)
I think that's it. I know its long, and thank you for reading my novel. Any feedback is welcome!
I haven't got a hold of UC yet but I'd love to see the answer to this.
Can I ask why you took the fighter level? Just curious.
Fighter level grants a bonus feat that has to be a style feat I needed anyways. It was the only way to get that many feats, and I could still use one more.
I lost improved evasion to do it, so a pretty harsh tradeoff.
That's a pretty cool build. I made something similar recently... Although it was a pretty weird amalgamation of classes.
Random class dips:
Cleric 1 - Two domains, minor spellcasting... If you take the Crusade Archetype, you can gain Weapon Focus as a feat. Furthermore, if you're crazy enough to sink two more feats, you can follow Irori, take Channel Smite, and take Guided Hand. Now your unarmed strikes are based off of Wisdom.
Inquisitor 2 - An inquisition (I like the inquisition which lets you use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.) Minor spellcasting, add Wisdom to initiative, add Wisdom to knowledge checks, good skill points, more class skills, good saves and other minor bonuses
Ninja 2 - Combat feat, sneak attack, use your ki pool when you make full attacks (can't use ki for extra attacks as a monk; no more flurry) lots of skill points and other minor benefits.
Fighter 3 (Brawler archetype) - Full BAB, 2 bonus feats, 3rd level ability grants +1 to hit and +3 to damage. Maybe take a 4th level of fighter for another feat and qualify for Weapon Specialization
Prestige Class:
Duelist 1-10? It's tempting. You have to take Weapon Finesse, which is probably useless for you...? With Snake Style or Boar Style, you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes, thus your unarmed strikes work with all of the Duelist abilities. If I'm interpreting it correctly, you could fight with both hands. (a loophole, it would seem?)
Anyway, not sure if that's helpful. I guess I'm just unloading all of the competing class levels that have been poring through my mind when contemplating a monk-style-combo thing. Good luck with yours? I hope it plays well. It's an unfortunately feat starved archetype. :/ (Makes me want to play a Gestalt Brawler Fighter/Master of Many Styles Monk)
EDIT: As to the Style interactions, sadly I'm similarly confused on those questions.
Crane Wing negates an attack, Snake Fang requires they miss an attack, so I don't think that will trigger.
Fighting defensively with Crane Style and only 3 ranks in Acrobatics is actually +4 AC not +2.
Forum advice for good AC appears to be 20+level.
I was under the impression that it was fairly binary whether they hit or miss. In this case they'd miss because I negated it, but they'd miss nonetheless.
If anyone can shed light on this or any other questions, I'd greatly appreciate it
Giving this one bump in hopes that an expert will see it. Any input is welcome!
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Giving this one bump in hopes that an expert will see it. Any input is welcome!
The deflection from crane wing is not a miss. This was clarified in another thread (I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong about another thread mentioning this). Effects other than attack damage are resolved normally (such as a monster with the Grab ability, etc.), but the attack simply deals no real damage.
As such, Snake Style does not trigger off of Crane Wing, though the bonuses to defense make it more likely that you will get the benefit anyways.
I appreciate the advice. So it seems the best tactic for me might be to exploit panther/snake together on my turn, and crane during my opponents turn? There'd be no conflict then profided I made an attack on my turn in order to declare fighting defensively. Then on my opponents turn I could block their attack and use crane riposte to inflict one of my own.
He could have used that advice.... six months ago. /smileyface
I'm sorely tempted to find the old Mirror Image thread where there was a veritable avalanche of posters claiming that if you hit an image you "missed" your "target" and thus Cleave would not work. Just to see if they're the same ones now stating that Crane Wing doesn't "count" as a "miss." But...I can't get more than one page into that thread without getting a head injury from head-desk-ing.
Also, pseudo... MoMS DOES let you skip the middle feat of the style trios. You have ot have the base style feat to take later ones, but otherwise you ignore pre-reqs.
Good thing too, cause man does Snake Sidewind suck.
IIRC, you HAVE TO GET HIT in order for Crane Wing to work.
Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you.
The good thing is, you can cancel those pesky crits that would go through your enhanced AC.
The bad thing is, you won't be able to use Crane Riposte consistently since you usually won't get hit.
Following the trend of being super late, and hoping to advice future readers of this thread. Snake fang will trigger off of crane wing no problem, there was some confusion before the errata(See Bill Clinton defines "is"). Panther, Crane, and Snake make a solid combo.
As for 35 being enough, It's... Decent. A single CR9 will probably hit 50% of the time or better, so be careful vs the BBEG. But in encounters with multiple mobs you'll probably sit pretty happy.
As for the last question, You declare you are fighting defensively when you use the attack action(Specific standard action) or the full attack action(Specific full round action); and the effect persists for the entire round. Technically speaking an AoO is NOT an attack action, but a specific free action. So one could argue you can't fight defensively on an AoO unless you have already been doing so during your last turn, in which case, you are forced to be.