Admittedly I did a quick skim of the messageboards, so I apologize in advance if such a question has already been asked and answered.
Now, here's my question:
How "game-breaking" (if at all) would it be to give/add-in spellcasting progression to the Battle Herald PrC from the Advanced Player's Guide. And I'm considering/looking at it like the Nature Defender, the Rage Prophet... where it is nothing at 1st level, then spellcasting at 2nd through 4th, nothing at 5th level, then spellcasting at 6th & 7th level, nothing at 8th level, and then finishing with spellcasting progression at 9th & 10th level.
I don't believe the class abilities the Battle Herald grants are that good (compared to Nature Warden or Rage Prophet) to NOT allow bard spell-progression.
If someone feels differently, please explain your reasons, telling me I'm wrong just to tell me "You're Wrong" won't help.
And now for one of the reason's I'm looking to do this in one of my home games
I am looking for advice/opinions here. I have often wondered why of all the PrC's in the APG why the Battle Herald didn't advance spellcasting like all or most all of the other "spellcasting" PrC's.
Thanks in advance.
~Dean
It's a balance thing - They're already getting a major improvement to their Inspire Courage ability, full BAB, and still keeping a number of Cavalier abilities and higher-level bardsongs. What they give up for that is any progression in Spellcasting. Otherwise, it would make more sense for most bards (and many cavaliers) to dip one level into Cavalier (or bard), then go into the Herald.
If you notice, both Nature Warden and Rage Prophet are 3/4 BAB classes, and 3/4 casting progression. Every 4 levels, they don't get a BAB and don't get a level of spellcasting. If you wanted to change the Battle Herald to match that model, that'd probably be closer to balanced, but giving them the 3/4 spellcasting with full BAB, on top of everything else they get, is probably too much.
Another point of comparison is the Arcane Archer. It gets full BAB and 3/4 casting, but its abilities are fairly limited in scope or power, and don't really stack with anything else. If you took out some of the stacking (maybe you can't use bardic performance rounds to power your commands and it doesn't stack for tactician), then it would also be better balanced.
I do recommend making tactician a move action for that archetype, going down to Swift at 9th level.
That way they can buff and help out, rather than buffing and finally helping out on the 3rd round.
It's a balance thing - They're already getting a major improvement to their Inspire Courage ability, full BAB, and still keeping a number of Cavalier abilities and higher-level bardsongs. What they give up for that is any progression in Spellcasting. Otherwise, it would make more sense for most bards (and many cavaliers) to dip one level into Cavalier (or bard), then go into the Herald.
If you notice, both Nature Warden and Rage Prophet are 3/4 BAB classes, and 3/4 casting progression. Every 4 levels, they don't get a BAB and don't get a level of spellcasting. If you wanted to change the Battle Herald to match that model, that'd probably be closer to balanced, but giving them the 3/4 spellcasting with full BAB, on top of everything else they get, is probably too much.
Another point of comparison is the Arcane Archer. It gets full BAB and 3/4 casting, but its abilities are fairly limited in scope or power, and don't really stack with anything else. If you took out some of the stacking (maybe you can't use bardic performance rounds to power your commands and it doesn't stack for tactician), then it would also be better balanced.
Oh, I hadn't noticed the Battle Herald was a full BAB. Suddenly this makes sense to me why they did what they did. I may make some changes like the ones you mention. Thanks Bobson.
EDIT: Not to argue the point, but I looked up what you said about Battle Herald... and that's when I noticed... Holy Vindicator is a Full BAB with 3/4 spellcasting.
So, either Holy Vindicator is overpowered and unbalanced... or adding 3/4 spellcasting to the Battle Herald isn't overpowering the PrC. Hmm.
And Master Chymist is a Full BAB with 3/4 spellcasting/extracts.
For the one-off time I'll be doing this/using it I think I'm going to give the Battle Herald NPC I mentioned up-thread in my spoiler a 3/4 spellcasting. I honestly don't believe it will unbalance my game or anything.
~Dean
The difference with Master Chymist and Holy Vindicator is that they progress a single class - Alchemist and either paladin or cleric respectively. They don't stack for all purposes with their original class, they just progress the parts which are relevant to the prestige class. Battle Herald, Nature Warden, and Rage Prophet advance two base classes' abilities.
Off the top of my head, with no research other than what I've already done for this thread, a "balanced" prestige class would get three of the following:
1) Full BAB
2,3) 3/4 casting progression (can be selected a second time to get full casting progression)
4,5) Advance 1-2 abilities from one class (can be selected a second time for a second class)
6) Major ability unique to the PrC.
Whether that actually models all the existing PrCs well, I'm not sure, but in the few we've looked at:
Master Chymist & Holy Vindicator: 1, 2, 4, 6
Battle Herald: 1, 4, 5, 6
Arcane Archer: 1, 2, 4
Nature Warden: 2, 4, 6
Rage Prophet: 2, 4, 5
So I'm in the right ballpark, although I don't have the specifics quite right. Either that, or the Chymist, Vindicator, and Herald are just stronger PrCs than the other three.
Probably it should be a point-based system like the Race-building guide elsewhere on the forums.
The difference with Master Chymist and Holy Vindicator is that they progress a single class - Alchemist and either paladin or cleric respectively. They don't stack for all purposes with their original class, they just progress the parts which are relevant to the prestige class. Battle Herald, Nature Warden, and Rage Prophet advance two base classes' abilities.
Off the top of my head, with no research other than what I've already done for this thread, a "balanced" prestige class would get three of the following:
1) Full BAB
2,3) 3/4 casting progression (can be selected a second time to get full casting progression)
4,5) Advance 1-2 abilities from one class (can be selected a second time for a second class)
6) Major ability unique to the PrC.Whether that actually models all the existing PrCs well, I'm not sure, but in the few we've looked at:
Master Chymist & Holy Vindicator: 1, 2, 4, 6
Battle Herald: 1, 4, 5, 6
Arcane Archer: 1, 2, 4
Nature Warden: 2, 4, 6
Rage Prophet: 2, 4, 5So I'm in the right ballpark, although I don't have the specifics quite right. Either that, or the Chymist, Vindicator, and Herald are just stronger PrCs than the other three.
Probably it should be a point-based system like the Race-building guide elsewhere on the forums.
Bobson,
Thanks for all your efforts put forth into my query. You've been the model of courtesy and I certainly appreciate that. Your "fine eye" for details has certainly opened my own eyes to better appreciate what it was you were trying to tell me in the first place, and I was just too stubborn to listen or see your point.
You've laid it out for me in clear and concise terms, and should I decide to grant Battle Herald a 3/4 bard spell progression, it will be with the recommendations that you've previously made.
Thank You.
~Dean
Bobson,Thanks for all your efforts put forth into my query. You've been the model of courtesy and I certainly appreciate that. Your "fine eye" for details has certainly opened my own eyes to better appreciate what it was you were trying to tell me in the first place, and I was just too stubborn to listen or see your point.
You've laid it out for me in clear and concise terms, and should I decide to grant Battle Herald a 3/4 bard spell progression, it will be with the recommendations that you've previously made.
Thank You.
~Dean
You're quite welcome! Mechanic balance is one of the areas of RPGs that I'm most interested in, and I'm always glad to do an analysis.