RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
For reference:
Being a light, 1d3 piercing weapon that needs EWP, this obviously won't be winning any power-level contests. Even so, the sheer coolness of this item has attracted my attention. However, as I began pondering the coolest character to use it, I ran into some rules concerns that lead to more rules concerns, etc.
Now, for Fighty McFighterson, this is pretty straightforward: you wear it, and as per the rules for bucklers, you get a +1 shield bonus to your AC until you attack with it, at which point you lose the AC bonus until your next turn. You also have a -1 ACP, and if you try to attack with something wielded in that hand, you take a -1 to hit (I presume that the -1 doesn't apply to attacks with the Tekko-kagi itself, because a weapon that always automatically got a -1 to hit would be really dumb). Simple enough, right?
Okay, so, here are some questions:
1. If I pay 30Xgp to get a masterwork tekko-kagi, does that also reduce the ACP for using it defensively? (This is probably a no-brainer for people more familiar with shield bashing than myself.)
2. If I attack with my non-masterwork tekko-kagi, do I stop taking the ACP until I get the AC bonus back, since I'm no longer "using it defensively like a buckler"? Not that this one will matter much, since no one's going to have a non-MW one for very long.
3. What about ASF (arcane spell failure)? Do we use the 5% from the buckler's stats or does the fact that the tekko-kagi entry (table or text) says nothing of ASF mean that casters can now gain a single extra point of AC risk-free? It wouldn't be unprecedented; there's ceremonial armor in UC that provides +1 AC with no ASF chance.
4. Anything else I'm missing?
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For reference:
** spoiler omitted **Being a light, 1d3 piercing weapon that needs EWP, this obviously won't be winning any power-level contests. Even so, the sheer coolness of this item has attracted my attention. However, as I began pondering the coolest character to use it, I ran into some rules concerns that lead to more rules concerns, etc.
Now, for Fighty McFighterson, this is pretty straightforward: you wear it, and as per the rules for bucklers, you get a +1 shield bonus to your AC until you attack with it, at which point you lose the AC bonus until your next turn. You also have a -1 ACP, and if you try to attack with something wielded in that hand, you take a -1 to hit (I presume that the -1 doesn't apply to attacks with the Tekko-kagi itself, because a weapon that always automatically got a -1 to hit would be really dumb). Simple enough, right?
Okay, so, here are some questions:
1. If I pay 30Xgp to get a masterwork tekko-kagi, does that also reduce the ACP for using it defensively? (This is probably a no-brainer for people more familiar with shield bashing than myself.)
2. If I attack with my non-masterwork tekko-kagi, do I stop taking the ACP until I get the AC bonus back, since I'm no longer "using it defensively like a buckler"? Not that this one will matter much, since no one's going to have a non-MW one for very long.
3. What about ASF (arcane spell failure)? Do we use the 5% from the buckler's stats or does the fact that the tekko-kagi entry (table or text) says nothing of ASF mean that casters can now gain a single extra point of AC...
1 no because it( the weapon its self) does not say "adds -1 ACP when used as a buckler"
2 yes because it only effects you in that way while using it as a buckler3. the item its self does not say "has a 5% arcane spell failure" BUT if you try using this with a caster, you would waste a feat for nothing seeing as though you can get a +4 from a first level spell.
i will say this having, what is essentially, improved disarm on your off hand is pretty nasty for a exotic weapon. also gives a +2 to sunder attempts. i would say put this bad boy on a fighter with twf, a 13 int, and smash teeth in.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Thanks for replying!
1 yes it would
I kind of thought so, but can you back this up with rules text?
2 no
The thing is, this means that we actually have a weapon that inherently grants an armor check penalty. That's... kind of weird.
a caster cannot use a martial weapon so you would need to multi class to use it.
Nonproficiency does not prevent use. It imposes a -4 penalty on attack rolls with the weapon (oh, and it's exotic, not martial) and in the case of using it like a buckler, nonproficiency causes your ACP from that item to be applied to your attack rolls. If Mr. Wizard is not planning on slashing anyone or using rays, he can wear a tekko-kagi nonproficiently without really being affected by nonproficiency penalties.
EDIT: Hm, you ninja'd me with your edit.
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Thanks for replying!
1 yes it wouldI kind of thought so, but can you back this up with rules text?
2 noThe thing is, this means that we actually have a weapon that inherently grants an armor check penalty. That's... kind of weird.
a caster cannot use a martial weapon so you would need to multi class to use it.Nonproficiency does not prevent use. It imposes a -4 penalty on attack rolls with the weapon (oh, and it's exotic, not martial) and in the case of using it like a buckler, nonproficiency causes your ACP from that item to be applied to your attack rolls. If Mr. Wizard is not planning on slashing anyone or using rays, he can wear a tekko-kagi nonproficiently without really being affected by nonproficiency penalties.
EDIT: Hm, you ninja'd me with your edit.
yeah sorry, i reread the text and had to change my post lol sorry about that. * whistles*
I'm really not 100% on this, but here are my guesses.
1)300gp gets you the +1 attack. 150gp gets you the lower check penalty. 450gp gets you both.
2)I would think you would stop taking it. Otherwise, there is little advantage to the thing over and above a weapon + buckler.
3)Yes, there would be arcane spell failure. It says "as a buckler," not "as a buckler except for arcane spell failure." EDIT: That is to say, when you are using it as a buckler, you have the ASF. Not when used as a weapon.
4)Yes. You forgot to ask how much it costs to make out of mithral. The answer is "1000gp, or people are going to abuse it."
These are pretty much guesses, based on half-remembered statements about shields as weapons and about klars. Which, by the way, you could try searching for for more official answers. I'm not sure if answers were ever agreed upon, but things like this have definitely been argued before.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Thanks for the response.
1)300gp gets you the +1 attack. 150gp gets you the lower check penalty. 450gp gets you both.
As I asked TheSidekick, why? I'm generally less concerned with the verdict on a particular example than with the rules underlying said verdict.
2)I would think you would stop taking it. Otherwise, there is little advantage to the thing over and above a weapon + buckler.
My hesitation, though, is this:
GM: "There's a cliff here, with a MacGuffin at the top."Player: "Okay, I cease using my tekko-kagi as a buckler, and make a climb check with the lower ACP."
On the other hand, there's this:
Player: "I found this cool weapon for my character! It's an iron claw!"
GM: "Don't forget to take the ACP for it."
Player: "Huh? But it's a weapon, not a shield."
GM: "Yeah, but since you could use it defensively as a buckler, you have a -1 ACP."
So either way you get weird things.
3)Yes, there would be arcane spell failure. It says "as a buckler," not "as a buckler except for arcane spell failure." EDIT: That is to say, when you are using it as a buckler, you have the ASF. Not when used as a weapon.
See above.
4)Yes. You forgot to ask how much it costs to make out of mithral. The answer is "1000gp, or people are going to abuse it."
Now there's an interesting point. I was about to point out that since it's not a shield, it would go by the 500gp/lb pricing for mithral. But then I saw that it was listed as having negligible weight. That's definitely an issue. As a matter of fact, now that I glance over the tables, there are SEVERAL weapons in UC that theoretically could be made of mithral but have a "-" listed for their weight. That's a problem.
These are pretty much guesses, based on half-remembered statements about shields as weapons and about klars. Which, by the way, you could try searching for for more official answers. I'm not sure if answers were ever agreed upon, but things like this have definitely been argued before.
There's a lot of potential for difference between shields as weapons (listed on both tables) and the tekko-kagi (weapon only, but happens to have a vague defensive benefit).
1) As to why: my arguments are based on the idea that, at the end of the day, the claw is essentially a buckler with shield spikes. The flavor is different, but it is the only point of mechanical comparison we have. It also fits the pattern in terms of damage, critical, and attack type.
You can see a discussion of the idea of a shield/weapon in relation to the klar here. Since there hasn't been much official talk about ANY of the issues with Ultimate Combat, this is the closest to official word that exists.
2&3)I agree, it is weird either way. This comes up with a lot of weapons from Ultimate Combat. Seriously, try figuring out how to use a rope dart.
If I stuck to my klar analogy, you would take the penalty all the time. However, since it only says "can be used defensively as a buckler," not "is a buckler," things get all weird. I will absolutely say you should get it while using it defensively, though. "As a buckler" does not mean "as a buckler, but without the negative bits."
As to the difference between shields as weapons and weapons with defensive benefits, I would say weapons that don't truly count as shields wouldn't mention shields at all in their descriptions. Take the scizore: even though it works mechanically like wielding a weapon while wearing a buckler on the arm, it doesn't mention bucklers. It just goes into a description of exactly what happens when you use it as a weapon.
Not being listed on a table I would chock up to bad editing of the section, rather than a rule change. I mean, the updated Madu isn't listed on an armor table either. And I don't think anyone can argue that means you don't take an check penalty for it anymore.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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1) As to why: my arguments are based on the idea that, at the end of the day, the claw is essentially a buckler with shield spikes. The flavor is different, but it is the only point of mechanical comparison we have. It also fits the pattern in terms of damage, critical, and attack type.
Problem here, though:
There's a HUGE difference (some of which we haven't even discussed in this thread yet) between shield spikes/bashing and having a weapon that can be used in a shield-like fashion.
For instance: bucklers can't be used for shield bashing.
That means that the tekko-kagi will never ever ever interact with things like Improved Shield Bash to let you keep the AC bonus while attacking, and so forth.
Thus, what you call "the only point of mechanical comparison we have" is something that doesn't actually exist in the rules in the first place. Which brings us right back to my ultimate concern with the tekko-kagi: it doesn't have a mechanical precedent.
This gives us all kinds of problems. For instance, after some reading, I discovered that your "300 for +1 to hit, 150 for less ACP, 450 for both" actually has no grounding in the rules - if you go and read about masterwork weapons and armor in the Equipment chapter, you'll discover that you can NEVER give your shield (or armor) an enhancement bonus to hit by virtue of being masterwork (and it will always cost 150, not 300 or 450). There is no precedent for double-costing it. There is also no precedent for whether a weapon's MW quality affects its shield-like properties (the converse of what IS covered - a shield's MW quality failing to affect its properties as a weapon).
Comparing the tekko-kagi to shield bashing seems like the obvious place to go at first, but it starts to fall apart REALLY fast.
I think we are just going to have to disagree on how far apart a Tekko-Kagi and similar things like Klars and Madus are. You see "bucklers can't be used for bashing" as a problem, I see it as part of why this is a separate, exotic weapon. I see the fact that it says "as a buckler" means to use all the rules for bucklers, you seem to disagree. You say it could "never ever ever interact with things like Improved Shield Bash," I say "best Rondelero Duelist ever?"
Okay, I don't really say that last one, since it specifies "defensively," but you get the idea. I see it as a "non-ideal" comparison," you see it as different enough to not even be on the radar. I figure there are two options: use other shield-weapon hybrids as a baseline, or just declare it unknowable, pick a rule you like, and move on.
Or, you know, Sean K. Reynolds could pop up and solve all of our problems. That is always a possibility.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I see the fact that it says "as a buckler" means to use all the rules for bucklers, you seem to disagree.
To clarify, I don't disagree here (that's actually part of why I don't like the shield bashing comparison). I just think that there are still things left unanswered even with the buckler's rules in mind.
Or, you know, Sean K. Reynolds could pop up and solve all of our problems. That is always a possibility.
Would be great. I look forward to when UC gets added to the FAQ.
And for the record, I wouldn't be so finicky if this was for a home game. I'd just come to an understanding with my GM. But I only play in PFS, having a different GM tell me a different thing each week could get wearisome. :P
.3)Yes, there would be arcane spell failure. It says "as a buckler," not "as a buckler except for arcane spell failure." EDIT: That is to say, when you are using it as a buckler, you have the ASF. Not when used as a weapon.
Things like this are why this weapon seems so cool but then just falls apart. The weapon is literally strapped to your arm. Yet due to the confusing wording, sometimes that makes it give you ASF and sometimes it doesn't.
They really should have taken some time to clarify how this thing works. Can it be used offensively and defensively in the same turn? Buckler says no, but that makes it more useless (especially considering you sank EWP into it). And then, do you take the buckler's penalty too? So then you've got a buckler that can be used as a weapon but just sucks at both AND you got to waste a feat on it.
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Can you use the tekko-kagi for Swashbuckler shenanigans?
Precise Strike:
Definitely not RAI, but it's on the forearm, not the hand... :-)
Or what about a monk who can deal piercing damage with unarmed strikes?
Thread Necromancers! The item can be used on both arms, right, and basically incur the weapon minuses as per buckler?
1) Used on both arms? Yes. It's a light melee weapon.
2) Incur the weapon minuses as per the buckler? No. However, since it is not actually a shield (see klar, madu, and shield spikes), Improved Shield Bash has no effect (you cannot both attack with it and gain the AC benefit), nor can it be enhanced as a shield from magic vestment or Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
(Implied 3) Can use another weapon in the same hand? Two options:
I'd lean toward no. Per Ultimate Equipment, "...this device consists of a fanlike structure of three or more 10-inch blades secured to a sturdy handle strapped to the forearm..." (emphasis mine) Handle = gripped by the hand. On the plus side, I'd treat it as similar to the pata or scizore and grant a +10 CMD vs. disarm attempts.
Alternately, it could be treated as an exotic version of the cestus or spiked gauntlet. In which case, you could use another weapon or block for a +1 shield bonus with that hand; however, see item 2) for restrictions on it's effectiveness. Note that other weapons, like the boar spear, bill, or meteor hammer (fortress mode) can be used to gain a shield bonus in certain circumstances, but are not enhanced as shields.
Personally, I find the main benefit is in the "used to disarm an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity" wording. For one feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency), you gain the benefit of two (Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm) with that weapon; you also don't require 13+ Int.