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Suggestions for perfect "mage" killer build


Advice

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I was wandering what builds people have lying around that can generally kick any wizard/cleric/witch/oracle in the, you know what, and keep doing it untill it stops being fun.

So what i was thinking is one or more of the folowing abilities:

resistance/immunity to different elements

very good saves

high mobility (so those bastard mages dont run or escape)

any ability to stop spellcasting (CMB checks and a fighter feat line comes to mind)

resistance/imunity to conditions (so those SoS spells seem less frightening)

a reliable way to take out that spellcaster from the battle (high damage, pinned and gagged, or anything like it)

Is not a one trick pony, where that one trick can be eliminated by a single spell. (archers vs windwall, grap vs freedom of movement, and so on)

General high survivability would be nice (since charging to the wizard, is bound to attract some attention)

What classes and archetypes would be best to fill out the above requirements, and if you guys have any interesting builds out there, i think it would be fun to see just what can be done to really mess up that spellcasters day.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Look up the superstitious barbarian.


nicklas Læssøe wrote:

I was wandering what builds people have lying around that can generally kick any wizard/cleric/witch/oracle in the, you know what, and keep doing it untill it stops being fun.

So what i was thinking is one or more of the folowing abilities:

resistance/immunity to different elements

very good saves

high mobility (so those bastard mages dont run or escape)

any ability to stop spellcasting (CMB checks and a fighter feat line comes to mind)

resistance/imunity to conditions (so those SoS spells seem less frightening)

a reliable way to take out that spellcaster from the battle (high damage, pinned and gagged, or anything like it)

Is not a one trick pony, where that one trick can be eliminated by a single spell. (archers vs windwall, grap vs freedom of movement, and so on)

General high survivability would be nice (since charging to the wizard, is bound to attract some attention)

What classes and archetypes would be best to fill out the above requirements, and if you guys have any interesting builds out there, i think it would be fun to see just what can be done to really mess up that spellcasters day.

There is no such build. There are builds that give better chances to bring them down, but "mage killers" are a myth.


wraithstrike wrote:
There is no such build. There are builds that give better chances to bring them down, but "mage killers" are a myth.

AM BARBARIAN would disagree. He's killing mages left and right pretty easily.


Well, taking a dwarf and using the racial variant that gives you SR would help. Make him a pali (very nice saves). Give him a ring of evasion...

Qadira

I rather like Magi as Caster-be-Gone. Fight fire with fire, I always say.


Death is generally the best way to stop a caster from casting. The pouncing superstitious barbarian is very good at that.

Ranger's with archery at high level's are pretty undetectable, and don't have an issue waiting for the duration on a wind wall to run out. You could also put a mounted ranger(beastmaster) on a dire bat and rock that out some, but you would have to shore up the saves quite a bit.

Andoran

The best anti-caster build is another caster. But if that isn't an option I'd personally probably go Human Barbarian 18 / Antipaladin 2 for an anti-caster build. AM build + divine grace for when not raging? SWEET!


BARBARIAN HEARTILY RECOMMEND HEALTHY DOSE OF BARBARIAN.

AM MAKING CASTYS LOOK LIKE THE NEW MARTIAL.

MAKE SURE TO BRING BATTY BAT, WHO SOURCES SAY AM MAYBE DRAGON.

AM UNSURE. BARBARIAN NOT HAVE REQUISITE KNOWLEDGE SKILLS TO TELL DIFFERENCE.


I wonder about a Sohei, they have the ability to take 20 on initiative rolls, like a Divinationist. I don't know where you would go after you have a 20th level monk, but it might be another path, they will get to act before anyone else.

Shadow Lodge

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

I was wandering what builds people have lying around that can generally kick any wizard/cleric/witch/oracle in the, you know what, and keep doing it untill it stops being fun.

So what i was thinking is one or more of the folowing abilities:

resistance/immunity to different elements

very good saves

high mobility (so those bastard mages dont run or escape)

any ability to stop spellcasting (CMB checks and a fighter feat line comes to mind)

resistance/imunity to conditions (so those SoS spells seem less frightening)

a reliable way to take out that spellcaster from the battle (high damage, pinned and gagged, or anything like it)

Is not a one trick pony, where that one trick can be eliminated by a single spell. (archers vs windwall, grap vs freedom of movement, and so on)

General high survivability would be nice (since charging to the wizard, is bound to attract some attention)

What classes and archetypes would be best to fill out the above requirements, and if you guys have any interesting builds out there, i think it would be fun to see just what can be done to really mess up that spellcasters day.

your best bet is a barbarian, or my favorite is a tetori monk. you basically take what a wizard sucks most at, which is cmd (grappling), and force them to stay in melee with you by dispelling any polymorph effects, dimentional anchoring them and silencing them with chokehold. very awesome for killing, or at least hindering a caster in combat.

oh and i forgot to add no freedom of movement, full ac -2 while grappling and you gain the grab and constrict SA making grappling part of a standard or full round action.


Any class with an assassinate ability might work well (Assassin, Ninja, or lvl20 Rogue). I mean, it's a spellcaster. How good are wizards at Con saves and how do you cast spells to save yourself when you don't even recognize an opponent (assassinate only works if the wizard doesn't recognize the assaliant as hostile)?


Nymph MasterSpy + Poison


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
I rather like Magi as Caster-be-Gone. Fight fire with fire, I always say.

Yep. The Magus seems well-suited to this role. Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Spell Turning, and Dispelling Arcana, Disruptive Recall feat, etc...

All you have to do is weave in as much mobility as you can, and you can rock that battlefield. Even when your points/spells run out, you can still optimize yourself for 6 attacks/turn wearing heavy armor.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
I rather like Magi as Caster-be-Gone. Fight fire with fire, I always say.

Yep. The Magus seems well-suited to this role. Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Spell Turning, and Dispelling Arcana, Disruptive Recall feat, etc...

All you have to do is weave in as much mobility as you can, and you can rock that battlefield. Even when your points/spells run out, you can still optimize yourself for 6 attacks/turn wearing heavy armor.

Wow, that must have been a Resurrection because this thread was more than a year dead.

Also, I think every one of those things you listed are pretty weak and will not, ultimately, help you when you get them. Disruptive is just a minor delay to the point when spellcasters auto-succeed on Concentration checks and is most helpful before you can get it at 6th.

Spellbreaker relies on them failing concentration checks, which kind of doesn't happen once you hit the mid levels, even with Disruptive.

Dispelling Arcana is insanely overpriced (in Arcana points) when you could just cast Dispel, Greater Dispel, or Arcana Theft (which is a touch and can be used with Spellstrike) and then Recall it instead for less.

Disruptive Recall relies on you actually disrupting a spellcaster, which means you readied an action, which means you didn't use Spell Combat, which means you didn't use the entire point of the Magus and nerfed your damage for a turn just so you could have a chance at recalling a spell for free. Not to mention that you'll never be in melee with a caster like this unless you have room for the Step Up and Stand Still feats in your build.

In other words, none of those things are worth it. A true full spellcaster, a superstitious barbarian who can rage cycle Spell Sunder, and maybe a Tetori are your best anti-mage options.

Otherwise, damage is what you want--just blast them down as hard and fast as you can.


A hidden arcane archer shoots an anti-magic field arrow right at the feet of said mage... and then AM BARBARIAN pounces in?


Arcane Duelist is a candidate as well. He gets disruptive and spellbreaker free, casts see invisible, dispel magic, silence, sculpt sound, freedom of movement, and dimension door, and generally hits hard enough to give a non-gish caster a hard time, all the while buffing allies and being the party face. Oh, and saving finale protects your allies from failed saves.

Being a spontaneous caster means never having to worry about having prepared too few or too many dispel magics.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

One thing I liked to do with my fighter was, if I knew I couldn't get a full attack, I'd get adjacent to the caster (with whatever means we can) and ready a standard action (usually Vital Strike) for whenever they cast a spell. Now, when you ready an action, the caster will probably try to do the 'caster shuffle' and five foot step away. At this point, my Step Up would activate and I'd be right next to them again, forcing them to make a concentration check. Even if they pass and cast a spell, my ready action will commence and I will still be able to hit them and do damage, forcing another concentration check equal to 10 + damage dealt + spell level. So suddenly, passing that concentration check becomes much harder and many times, they lose the spell. It's a good alternative if you can't get a full attack that round. Having used it up until level 16 (when the campaign ended), it was very helpful and effective.

Of course, you should work with your team to bring the caster to the ground, in case they are flying ;)

Sczarni

anti magic field


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Wow, that must have been a Resurrection because this thread was more than a year dead.

Indeed. I was scraping graves and active posts for ideas on a Magus build, and came across several that I necro'd up. In a game that spans years and years, resurrecting old posts for ideas is going to be standard operating procedure. It shouldn't even be noteworthy, to be honest. Yet people always grasp the obvious to point it out. Thanks.

You bring up very valid points insofar that a high level mage will be pretty immune to the effects of spellbreaking abilities. It seems way more effective to limit his movement (via dimension lock/step up/stand still) and pour on loads of damage as suggested.

Dipping into other classes similar to Magus (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Duelist) seems like the best choice to build what I want to.

Build intent: Fighter that can cast spells, take on other melee or casters easily enough. The Magus seems like a strong candidate, but I noticed that most people shy away from building it's effectivity and go with the other three instead...


Something that can get adjacent to the target and make a full attack in the same round. Pouncing barbarian I guess.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If an "Incredible Hulk" could cast spells and hit with melee in the same round wearing heavy armor, I'd be all for it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

Grapple Monk or Barb with chokehold feat (UC) plus silence cast on her.


Sounds like a monk to me. Let's see all good saves, Good touch AC, Spell resistance, Fastest movement in the game, ability to teleport, Full BAB when using combat maneuvers, Stealth as a class skill, Evasion for direct damage spells. Anything I miss?

This works better vs. Arcane casters then divine. Divine casters has a lot better AC and HP then most arcane casters. A Monk going against a fighter or other martial class not so good, but vs. the Wizard they do pretty good. The feats in ultimate combat made a big difference.


a rogue with dispelling strike and a lot of feats to disrupt spellcasting might work. but i think any melee who can umd a scroll of antimagic and keep the caster on the ground prone or immobilized so that they couldnt get away would work


Either Dwarf Witchunter Inquisitor (Mega Saves. Has fly and some of the best divine spells) or an Elven Hexcrafter with a Pterosaur familiar.

Both have great saves (the magus less so) and can do everything you listed.

The Magus would probably be best bet since he has Fort and Will save or lose effects and Force Hook charge can pounce a flying wizard.


Spellscar Oracle. Spell Resistance, bonuses to dispel magic, and bonuses to saves against spells, SLAs, and Su abilities. Plus a bonus spell list to go with it.


A team of Diviner and Sohei. The diviner has Dimension Door. They've both got feats to maximize initiative. They've both got the Lookout teamwork feat.

- Surprise Round: auto-succeed at surprise and get full-round action due to Lookout.
- Diviner teleports himself and the sohei adjacent to enemy caster.
- Sohei does full attack routine on enemy caster that's only had one standard action to get ready. He doesn't need to spend time drawing a weapon because he's a monk, so he can do the full attack right-away.

Any other party members that can do the following get to join in:
- have Lookout
- enough Perception to succeed at the surprise check
- have Quickdraw or another way to go from unarmed to full attack immediately.

When you can be upon the enemy caster with the whole party in the first round and full-attack him, you should be able to kill him quite perfectly.


STR Ranger wrote:
Dwarf Witchunter Inquisitor (Mega Saves. Has fly and some of the best divine spells)

I prefer Spellbreaker instead of Witch hunter....add the Spellkilller Inquisition, and Steel Soul since he's a dwarf, and he can just laugh and laugh as spells basically bounce off him


Problem with a rouge is their Will, and Fort saves are low. Too easy for the mage to cast a SOD spell. The fighter has it a little better because he only has a low Will save. And while you can get a cloak or other methods to improve them it is still a weak point.
Also an Antimagic Field only has a 10' Radius so all a mage needs to do is step back 10. And while this does provoke an AoO the mage can still cast after he moves to getaway.

You also need to be able to reach the mage including going through any meat shields he has. The meat shield may or may not be a summoned creature so don't count on the Antimagic Field to stop them. Your rogue may cast end up next to the mage's fighter bodyguard in which case all the mage needs to do is step back.

A monk of the four winds with greater grapple and cloud step would be able to spend 6 points of Ki and move up to 50' grab the mage dealing damage to him and then move another 50' away from the mages defenders. During this time he does not provoke an AoO for movement. At this point the mage is now away from his defenders who and alone in the grasp of monk who can easily beat the snot out of him. Good luck overcoming the 40+ CMD to cast a spell.


This makes me really wish they reprinted the Occult Slayer. I loved that class.

Killed an messenger of a god with that class.

Also reminded the DM not to roll randomly for who gets hit with the Irresistible Finger of Death.

When your level 7 character one shots a level 20 evil cleric of the God of Destruction, the GM starts taking better notes.

In 3.5 there were good anti caster feats and the Occult Slayer, not that it mattered, because casters were gods.

In Pathfinder your options are more limited.


i really think it all comes down to who goes first. that's why i mentioned rogue (or ninja).

if the mage sees you and has a chance to act he can do one, or several depending on his level, spells to get the advantage. a higher level caster could have 1 or 2 spells already on him, plus the ability to possibly cast 3 spells on the first turn(1 normal, 1 quickened, 1 contingency).

if he already has nondetection cast (1 hour/level duration) he could use contingency(based on him saying a phrase = free action) to activate an improved invisibility, and you would have to make a dc 15+his caster level caster check to see him with any kind of divination or detect spell. plus he can still cast a quickened and standard spell. say a quickened glitterdust on you plus a normal dim door. now you cannot hide from him plus you have no idea where he is, and he can manage all that in one turn.

but if a dispelling strike character can sneak up on them and get a full round attack before they get to go, they could at least dispel the current spells and the contingency, plus stop them from casting by being adjacent to them with all the appropriate feats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So,

1) Be invisible.
2) Go first.
3) Dispell magic stuffs.
4) Overwhelm with ridiculous damage totals.

That actually seems way less complicated than it should be. Hell, I can build a Witch that can do that. It simply wouldn't be survivable if detected...


The biggest problem with most of these is that they rely on some kind of assumption on the part of the wizard we are trying to kill. If it's at lower levels (namely, before Teleport), I would be in favor of a martial class that could effectively damage a wizard (or other caster) while having great saves. Possibly a Monk, but a multiclass character is probably the best bet (I may go Monk/Cleric/Rouge for stupid saves, a sneak attack while I grapple, and some spell-completion and spell-trigger items - just a single dip in both Cleric and Rouge).

Once you get to higher levels, though, more and more issues and the problem with the wizard having access to abilities no-one else (other than full casters) have access to begins to creep up.

First of all, the second I have access to teleport, I learn it and memorize it every day. Second, I make an item that lets me teleport and keep it on my person all day, every day. Third, I don't walk into a fight blind, and the second I think I'm going to lose the fight, I teleport out. If I don't like the fight in the first place, I teleport before it ever happens, get a ship to another continent, and begin planning there. That's my exact strategy for AM BARBARIAN. Alternatively, another plane where you have a stronghold works better, since a lot of divinations will fail.

The problem is that people take the wizard for a fool - he's going to walk into a fight with someone he's never researched into, learned about, or devised strategies against? Not if I'm playing him. It's completely opposite to how a wizard would act - the wizard is the master of preparation. Part of that preparation is learning about what enemies to expect, how best to counter them, and what spell I have, or need to learn to be effective. The second someone I've never seen before engages me in a fight to the death, I GTFO and begin learning about this fellow, whether I should be scared of him, and start planning other ways to deal with him.

If I see this guy has a reputation as a wizard-killer, I get into a powerful disguise, and research his fights. Do spells simply not work against him? Does he break the concentration of casters by waiting until the moment they cast to strike? What is his preferred weapon? How does he handle flying enemies? What are his counters to environmental traps? Does he boast resistance to a particular type of energy? When, where, and what precautions does he take when he sleeps (best done with scrying)? Why does he want to kill me?

By answering these questions, the wizard will both gain insight into his enemy and gain ideas for how to beat him. If spells don't work due to high saves, you use spells that don't allow saves. You don't target him with spells, you create walls of force that separate you and him while your summoned monsters start tearing into him. If he readies actions to hit you as you cast, run away (take the AoO), Have Mirror Image so he eventually misses, dimension door several hundred feet away (or if you have an item, use that next to him and not get hit, based on the wording of the ready), and use long-range spells on him. When he gets close, DD again. If he readies AND has high saves, use no-save spells again. He can't just ignore the summons.

Another important factor is - are we talking campaign or a one-shot fight? Because those are quite different. A wizard is at a significant disadvantage in those instances if they have no way to prepare beforehand. How the fight starts is critical, too. Are we just standing in an open field a random distance away? In a town? Am I in my Inn room, and you ambush me? The only real way to do this is to have a literal campaign-like setting where the wizard exists and the mage-killer exists, and they both play the game with the intent of killing one another.

Quite frankly, no martial class can compete with the high-end capabilities of a full prepared caster class (spontaneous casters are slightly more limited). The number of spells they can know, the amazing level of usefulness of so many different spells, and the fact that you can attack a character in so many different ways - direct damage, save or suck, save or die, save every round, summoned creatures, long-range, short-range, medium-range, defensive spells, metamagic - there's really very little non-casters can do to counter the awesome abilities of the full caster class. So the best counter, is in fact, another full caster.

There's an old saying: If you want to catch a thief, you send a thief.

If you want to catch a wizard...


Tetori.
It has answers for everything a caster could throw out there.


TheRedArmy wrote:
stuff

you are assuming the wizard has the capacity to get away.

have a grapple monk with decent umd, use umd to have a contigency of antimagic field on you set to go off when you say "you're dead wizard"

sneak up on wizard, initiate combat by saying those words as a free action then initiating grapple. one dead wizard.

Grand Lodge

Not sure if it was mentioned as I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I'd probably go with a Dwarf Superstitious Barbarian.

I'd grab Glory of Old trait and the Steel Soul feat.

Some other feats I'd probably try to get are the Step Up & Strike line so that you literally stick to the caster like superglue as they try to move away from you, you get to move up and hit them as an AoO.

Pick up rage powers such as Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder and moving up to Eater of Magic.

You'll be a definite caster killer if you go this direction IMHO.


Honestly, the best "mage killer" doesn't have to be anything terribly fancy.

My approach would be someone who can attack at range (beyond 30 feet, so we're not talking about precision damage builds) and who can pile on enough damage that even a readied action (ie. not a full attack) will cause meaningful damage (ie. disrupt casting.

This attacker should have excellent Stealth (not invisibility: a powerful caster will have outsider minions with true seeing and high perception, greater prying eyes maintaining a perception perimeter). They should themselves be both very perceptive (to see the caster's minions more than the caster himself) and a means to counter greater invisibility/blur/displacement/etc.

This brings to mind a ranged inquisitor or ranger, the former with true seeing, the latter with hunter's eye (or equivalent), both maybe with shadow-enhanced armor (and highly trained Stealth).

This brings up another problem, though - contingency. I know *my* wizards commonly have a contingency which triggers upon taking damage (usually a self-centered Resilient Sphere), so we'll need a counter to this; an inquisitor could preface an attack with a casting of dimensional anchor (with which he can snipe and not lose his concealment, as it is a ray), and then attack, thus negating any transport-related contingency (DDoor and teleport being common contingencies) and reducing the utility of something like being enclosed with force (since now the caster is trapped). In general, the inquisitor has a suite of tools (spells, judgements, bane weapon, skill) which are PERFECT for a mage hunter.

With the right feats, spell selection, and preparation, it's hard to imagine a greater hazard for a wizard than an actually fairly vanilla inquisitor.

Lantern Lodge

@David Haller
Wind Wall, the middle finger against all ranged missile attacks.


You can have only one contingency in effect at the same time though, so if it's Wind Wall, better hope your enemies rely strictly on arrows.

Contingent Resilient Sphere sounds rather dubious, it'd also take the wizard out of the fight since he now has very little line of effect for his spells.

I remain convinced that the best solution is just a team of heavy hitter and a caster with Dimension Door to deposit the hitter next to the target, ready for full attack. Use the Delay Initiative option to make sure there's nobody in between (barbarian) and taxi-driver-caster.

A barbarian going full attack on a wizard should be able to kill him before the wizard gets another action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

3.0 Forgotten Realms actually had a mage killer prestige class. It gave the mage killer a bonus to either Reflex or Fotritude saves every other level as well as a Spell Focus feat of their choice.

There are three things you want as a mage killer: High DCs/killing potential, high saves, and high initiative.

A friend of mine had a mage killer character a long time ago that was one of the most powerful spellcasters they've ever played. We later had it converted to Pathfinder. You can see it for yourself here.

Another character that I've personally designed that excels at killing mages is the oft-posted Yiankun.

I hope that helps to guide you on your way.


Psion-Psycho wrote:

@David Haller

Wind Wall, the middle finger against all ranged missile attacks.

I'd thought of Wind Wall - I'm a big fan (heh) - but the whole idea here is "the mage doesn't know what hit him": the mage killer is adept at hunting down the mage and pretty much slaying him outright. Beside, it's a Wind *Wall*, not a Wind *Ceiling*... I can just approach quietly from above (invisibility and non-detection maybe?) and shoot down :)

Just playing around for a few minutes and theorycrafting a level 20 Inquisitor of Nethys, he can roll with +20-something initiative, +30-something perception, +40-something stealth, saves around +30 fort/will and +20s or so reflex, doing 2d6 + 4d6 + 20-something per shot, all without any particular spell buffs or fancy items.

Ascalaphus wrote:
Contingent Resilient Sphere sounds rather dubious, it'd also take the wizard out of the fight since he now has very little line of effect for his spells.

Yes, it's an arguable tactic. My sorceress' use of it is a "hey, whoah, hold on there" contingency, which allows her to safely become greater invisible, maybe cast other buffs she might need, and then d-door out into the fray (usually meaning d-door "up" above the battle after also casting Fly). Obviously if a mage just wants to fight NOW, it's not a good contingency... however, in my view part of what makes a mage powerful is that HE decides when the fight begins, and a useful way to do this is having some kind of safe "elsewhere" to prepare, and then "bamf" back into it when HE'S ready!

Lantern Lodge

I think this is the best i could do with the limits of pathfinder.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1

-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34

-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40

AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28

-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34

-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44

AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58

-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)

-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20

-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)

Lantern Lodge

On level progression it would probably b better if i went a single level of summoner 1st then added monk and paladin.


At the risk of being totally ripped apart at by everyone on the forum (as I am not THAT good at maximizing), if you are uninterested in being a Barbarian or Monk, I might recommend a dwarf, Archery-based inquisitor. The Bane (at later, greater bane) ability+manyshot can deal SIGNIFICANT damage to a spellcaster, they are likely to go before the mage (add wis and Dex to init) and as a dwarf, there are a large number of feats available to you to increase your saves. In addition, the Stalwart ability can help you negate most fort/will based effects. In addition, the archery ability lets you get mages who decide to just deny barbarians from going by flying up into the air some distance. Admittedly, not a perfect build, I am sure someone could find a specific mage build, or a special set of spells, to counter this build, but for most mages it seems like it would do decently.


One of my friends is running a Two-Handed Ranger / Shadow Dancer build that has absolutely murdered any mage we come across. Shadow jump through the shadow of a nearby party member and out of the shadow of the mage, ready a standard action vital strike for when mage take their turn, mage now has to make DC 10+4d6+25 concentration check (at least). Rinse and repeat.


David Haller wrote:


Ascalaphus wrote:
Contingent Resilient Sphere sounds rather dubious, it'd also take the wizard out of the fight since he now has very little line of effect for his spells.
Yes, it's an arguable tactic. My sorceress' use of it is a "hey, whoah, hold on there" contingency, which allows her to safely become greater invisible, maybe cast other buffs she might need, and then d-door out into the fray (usually meaning d-door "up" above the battle after also casting Fly). Obviously if a mage just wants to fight NOW, it's not a good contingency... however, in my view part of what makes a mage powerful is that HE decides when the fight begins, and a useful way to do this is having some kind of safe "elsewhere" to prepare, and then "bamf" back into it when HE'S ready!

Sounds very risky to me. It works for a wizard who's basically operating solo, or only with disposable minions. But if one attack on you puts you in a bubble, someone can just do that to cut off your allies from your help.

That's what I don't really like about such a Contingency; it can be used against you in really nasty ways.


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Ascalaphus wrote:


That's what I don't really like about such a Contingency; it can be used against you in really nasty ways.

Only if your enemies magically know what your contingency is and not if you're smart in how you set it up.


The first time the contingency saves you, but then you need to start worrying about if anyone got away to tell what contingency you set, which is another thing to worry about. If you just use the same "perfect" contingency all the time, someone's going to notice and use it against you. If you vary, you might not have the right one up when you need it.

Cue the mindgames, with disposable minions sent in to see what contingency the wizard has today.

Also, once a contingency is triggered, it takes some time for the wizard to reset it...

Don't get me wrong, it's a good spell, but extremely hard to use effectively. If the GM is using it fairly (writing down the contingency, not changing it so that it fits whatever plan the players come up with), it's not certain that it'll save you.


It's true that our mage hunter will have studied our mage; indeed, that's one feature of a mage hunter which hasn't really been emphasized: they need to not simply be some kind of heavy, they need to know (or be able to find out about) their quarry.

Of course, a powerful mage seeds the world with misinformation, protects himself against scrying, and so on. Maybe for every time he must use his *real* contingency (Resilient Sphere, for example), he sends Simulacra on meaningless errands with other contingencies to "spread stories".

Campaign-level considerations, obviously! (which is always the big downside to theorycrafting of any kind - failing to account for the narrative realities of a particular setting!)

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