Saving Throw Optimization


Advice


I'm curious to find out what ideas everyone has in terms of how to optimize/improve saving throws on a PC. Maybe there are some good tricks I've missed or feats/spells/items I've glossed over.

I propose the following guidelines for discussion:

1) No need to mention Cloak of Resistance or Iron Will/Great Fort/Lightning Reflexes; while relevant, they're also straightforward and obvious. Conversely, assume these when relevant; no need to point out a +1 resistance bonus to saves for a 10th level character, we can assume a Cloak has that covered.

2) Assume a character of around 10th level who's pretty close to target wealth and, as most PCs do, wants to have most of his treasure in things that make him better at doing whatever his class functions are rather than focusing exclusively on saving throws. So, for example "Buy your fighter a +6 Wisdom item just for the +3 Will save!" is straight out, unless you can justify how +6 Wisdom will also make the fighter great at fighting. It's an unrealistic investment in his saves even though it does certainly help them.

3) Mostly assume that we don't want to burn class levels just for saving throw purposes. Adding a level of monk helps anyone's saves, but most characters won't want to give up a caster level or point of base attack to do it. On the other hand, I think arguments about why a class dip to improve saves for some particular kind of character is a better idea than it first appears is interesting and would make a good discussion. So "Take a level of monk!" is out but "I think taking a level of monk to help your saves on an archer fighter or ranger is a better idea than it first occurs, because X Y and Z" is in.

4) Always-up stuff is to be preferred over temporary effects, but the latter is still worthy of discussion. E.g. I think "A good-alignment sorcerer with an investment in use magic device can really benefit from a wand of Bestow Grace for fights he knows are coming."

I'd love to hear what all is out there that I've missed.


There are always the traits which pump a saving throw. Or my personal favorite: History of Heresy, which adds +1 on saving throws versus divine spells.


Human barbarian with one level of oracle, lame curse.

Not raging, you get a 6/3/5 saves while naked. +2 cloak goes to 8/5/7. Then you get angry.

Raging vitality makes it a +6 to con, and you get +2 will, for a total of 11/5/9. Then comes superstition. Against spells, sla's, and su's you get a +7 with the human favored class ability.

That makes it 18/12/14, without figuring any of your base stats in. With eater of magic as an 8th level rage power, you also get a reroll 1/rage, and if you're a battle oracle, you can get another reroll that gives a +4 bonus besides.

And you're immune to fatigue. Nice.


Yea superstitious human barbarian (maybe dwarf with the feat for +4 to all saves) is probably top dog saves wise.

Paladin is likely second. My pally 4/ Sorc 1 only has a 20 Cha and is 10/6/11 with no feats, cloak, ioun stones and the like.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For Will saves:

Play a half-elf, getting you immunity to sleep and +2 versus Enchantment and Compulsion effects. Now replace the free Skill Focus feat with the alternate racial ability called "Dual Minded" in the APG, giving you a +2 to Will saves (which stacks with Iron Will if you take it). Now take the trait ("skeptic"?) which gives you a +2 versus Illusions.

You now have +4 on 95% of your will saves (I guess watch out for fear and negative channeled energy), immunity to sleep, and you haven't even touched a class level yet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (Seeker of Secrets) is a +1 competence bonus to all saving throws for 4,000 gp.

Any martial character that can justify 2 levels of paladin is just untouchable save wise. 2 good saves, +cha to all saves, and lots of other good stuff as well.

Half orcs can substitute orc ferocity for sacred tattoos for a +1 bonus to saves, which I think is a fine deal.

Trait: Lessons of Chaldira: (Faiths of Purity) Once per day, when you fail a saving throw, you can reroll the saving throw.


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Don't overlook the energy resist/reflex/evasion save interaction. In several cases, evasion and resistances can much better than just getting a +1 to your save.

For example, at level 10, you would be looking at empowered fireball which does 10d6 * 1.5 = 52.5 damage on average.

-Without evasion, a +1 to your reflex save is a 2.5% damage reduction.

-Evasion reduces your damage by 50% of your chance to save.

-Each point of fire resistance reduces damage by 4.7% if you save, and 1.9% is you fail your save. So the total reduction would be 2 * SC / TD + (1-SC)/TD = (1+SC)/TD, where SC is your chance to make the save, and TD is the total damage. So with a 50% chance to save, 10 points of fire resistance is an average damage reduction of 33%

So, resistances can be used as a stand in for weak reflex saves, and when combined with high saves evasion and resistances are better than just getting +1 to your reflex save in most cases.

I only mention this because you can pick up evasion in a ring for 25k or 2 levels of rogue, and resistances are very easy to come by via armor/ring enchantments, class abilities, or spells. The downside to relying on resistances is that they don't help at all against save or lose effects.

Another thing is a belt of physical might con/dex +2 is a great save booster for any class that doesn't need strength. For 10k you, get +1 to fort and reflex saves with a +1 to AC and 1 HP per level.

If you want a class with scary will saves, go with caster cleric/druid. At level 10, they will have a 24 or better wisdom with a +7 base. That gives them a +14 will save before adding in a cloak of resistance.

For casters, your choice of familiar can give you a +2 to your saves. A 1 level dip in sorcerer or wizard can give you +2 will and +2 to any other save.


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Paladin.


Dragonsong wrote:

Yea superstitious human barbarian (maybe dwarf with the feat for +4 to all saves) is probably top dog saves wise.

Paladin is likely second. My pally 4/ Sorc 1 only has a 20 Cha and is 10/6/11 with no feats, cloak, ioun stones and the like.

Just remember steelsoul the dwarf feat you are talking about does not apply to hexes that are Su abilities.


doctor_wu wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:

Yea superstitious human barbarian (maybe dwarf with the feat for +4 to all saves) is probably top dog saves wise.

Paladin is likely second. My pally 4/ Sorc 1 only has a 20 Cha and is 10/6/11 with no feats, cloak, ioun stones and the like.

Just remember steelsoul the dwarf feat you are talking about does not apply to hexes that are Su abilities.

So, trying to compete with the superstitious barbarian on will saves.

Oh, and don't forget heroism spell is +2 morale bonus to all saves and prayer gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves.

Half-elf caster cleric

Spoiler:

Cleric 10

Strength: 8 (-1)
Dexterity: 14/16 (+2/+3)
Constitution: 13/15 (+1/+2)
Intelligence: 12 (+1)
Wisdom: 20/24 (+5/+7)
Charisma: 10 (0)

Fortitude Save: +16
Reflex Save: +14
Will Save: +24

Feats & Traits: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Persistent Spell, Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith

Special Abilities: Aura of Heroism (10 rounds/day) (Su), Elven Immunities - Sleep, Elven Immunities, Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (3/day) (DC 17) (Su), Cleric Domain: Heroism, Cleric Domain: Revolution, Elf Blood, Liberation (10 rounds/day) (Su), Nightmares Variant Channeling (±3 Sacred)

Magic Items: Belt of Physical Might, DEX & CON +2, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4

Spells of note: Blessing of Fervor (4), Death Ward (4), Freedom of Movement (4), Heroism (3), Prayer (3), Resist Energy (2)

So, base +22 will save. +24 with heroism up(I have the aura of heroism as a swift action, and heroism for 100 minutes per day as a domain spell). I have the ability to channel for +3 to saves vs charm and compulsion for 1 minute. Elven immunities(+2 vs enchantments), and I can act as if under the effects of freedom of movement for 10 rounds per day and can cast freedom of movement as a domain spell once per day. If blessing of fervor is up, I get +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves. Finally, case prayer for another +1 to all saves. I can cast resist energy/death ward(death ward is a +4 morale bonus and thus partially overlaps with heroism) as necessary.

The final total is +17 fort, +16 reflex, +25 will with +3 against charm and compulsion, +2 vs enchantments, +2 against death effects, immune to energy drain and negative energy effects, energy resistance 20 to the energy of my choice, and nearly immune to anything that would impede my movement.

Side note: the channel bonus can be changed to give bonuses against other things, I just picked maddness as an example.


It's interesting to me that a barbarian can stack up so well now. In 3.X the answer for melee characters was pretty much to stack the first levels of as many different +1 base attack classes or prestige classes as you could. You could end up with a titanic Fort save and a pretty passable (especially relative to what straight Fighter or Barbarian could manage) Will and Reflex save that way. You can't really mutt out your classes effectively to nearly as great a degree in Pathfinder, so it's good to see there are other options for a very save-conscious melee character.

What I still don't see (and maybe there isn't a good answer) is how you salvage some of the more save-disadvantaged characters. For example, how you get Fort and Will to a passable level on a neutral rogue.


Dire Mongoose wrote:


What I still don't see (and maybe there isn't a good answer) is how you salvage some of the more save-disadvantaged characters. For example, how you get Fort and Will to a passable level on a neutral rogue.

Don't use a rogue, use a Half-elf Inquisitor.

Spoiler:

Inquisitor 10

Strength: 10/12 (0/+1)
Dexterity: 19/21 (+4/+5)
Constitution: 14/16 (+2/+3)
Intelligence: 12/14 (+1/+2)
Wisdom: 14/16 (+2/+3)
Charisma: 8 (-1)

Fortitude Save: +21
Reflex Save: +20
Will Save: +24

Feats & Traits: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Shake It Off, Weapon Finesse, Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith

Special Abilities: Immune to Sleep, Elven Immunities, Judgement of Sacred Purity +3 / +6 (Su), Judgement of Sacred Resistance 8: Fire (Su), Second Judgement (4/day) (Su), Solo Tactics (Ex)

Magic Items: Belt of Physical Perfection, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Mental Prowess, INT & WIS +2: Use Magic Device, Wand of Summon Monster IV

Spells of note: Death Ward (4), Heroism (3), Prayer (3), Resist Energy (2)

Basically, the same as the cleric I posted with 3 exceptions.
- Stats are more balanced
- Has Shake It Off + Solo tactics -> Every adjacent ally gives +1 to saves(+4 max)
- Judgement of Sacred Purity +3 sacred bonus to saves with +3 to saves vs curses, poison, and disease

So with all buffs up, UMD the wand of summon monster to make sure you always have 4 or more adjacent allies, you cap out at +25 fort, +24 ref, +28 will. Like the cleric, the inquisitor woul have access to death ward(+2 saves vs death and immune to negative energy), resist energy, +2 vs enchanements, immune to sleep, and would be nearly immune to any effect that impedes movement with the revolution domain.


So, here is the 4 man party...

Superstition Barbarian as your frontline pounder.
Archer Inquisitor of Desna as your sneaky rogue type(see above)
Caster Cleric of Heroism/Freedom(see above)
Sorcerer with the Empyreal Bloodline.

The sorcerer uses wisdom as his casting stat which means the sorcerer will have will saves on par with the caster cleric, and can cast haste with gives +1 to reflex saves.

At level 10, most of the saves in the group will be 22+. The cleric will have a +18ish reflex save, and the sorcerer will have a +18ish Fort and Reflex save. The barbarian might be weak against non-spell effects, but most of those target fortitude(poisons, disease, massive damage, etc) which is his strongest save.


Here is what I get when I work up a superstitious barbarian

Spoiler:

Barbarian 10

Strength: 18/22 (+4/+6)
Dexterity: 14 (+2)
Constitution: 14 (+2)
Intelligence: 10 (0)
Wisdom: 12/14 (+1/+2)
Charisma: 8 (-1)

Fortitude Save: +14
Reflex Save: +11
Will Save: +11

Feats & Traits: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith

Special Abilities: Beast Totem, Lesser (Su), Beast Totem +3 AC (Su), Beast Totem, Greater (Su), Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex), Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex), Superstition +7 (Ex)

Magic Items: +3 Breastplate, +3 Falchion, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Protection, +1

So, +14 fort, +11 Reflex, +11 Will. While raging, +16 fort, +11 Ref, +13 will with a +7 against spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities. Also note that the +2 to will saves from raging is a morale bonus and does not stack with heroism.

Side note: If you drop a level of barbarian and take a level of oracle, you will be -1 fort, and gain +2 will. The upside is that with the lame oracle curse, you will be immune to fatigue, and can take the metal revelation that lets you ignore the speed reduction of metal armor.


A build I'm playing around with.

Monk 2
Paladin 3
Inquisitor 15

Gives the following:
Evasion
Stalwart
Charisma bonus on saves
Good Fort and Will
Slight bonus on reflex saves
Bonus saves from judgment

Once all stacked together the saves are insane. And if you make your save, no effect.


Maddigan wrote:

A build I'm playing around with.

Monk 2
Paladin 3
Inquisitor 15

Gives the following:
Evasion
Stalwart
Charisma bonus on saves
Good Fort and Will
Slight bonus on reflex saves
Bonus saves from judgment

Once all stacked together the saves are insane. And if you make your save, no effect.

Don't forget...

-Shake It Off + Solo tactics which mean that he get a +1 save for each adjacent ally up to a max of 4. You need to be at least a level 3 Inquisitor for Solo Tactics for this trick to work.
- You can cast Heroism which gives +2 morale bonus to all saves for 150 minutes per cast
- You can cast Prayer which gives +1 luck bonus to all saves for 15 rounds
- If you pick the freedom domain you would get 15 rounds of immunity to any effect that impedes your movement

So add another +3 to +7 to all your saves, and on demand freedom of movement.


Found another one. Wizards of the Divination(Forsight) school can emit an aura that grants a +2 luck bonus on all saves.

Also, an addition to the inquisitor
- Shake it Off + Duck and Cover + Solo Tactics

- Get +1 to all saves per adjacent ally AND I can use their reflex save roll if it is higher than my roll.

Naw all I need is a horde of summoned creatures to follow me around so I always have adjacent allies....


Paladin. Especially since they gave them a spell in the APG that can allow them to legally add their Charisma to saves twice. Bestow Grace is the spell, and it allows you to grant a creature an Insight bonus equal to the creature's Charisma modifier to all saves; stacks with Divine Grace. It's also only a 2nd level spell, so arguably epic on any other Charisma based character via a potion: Bards, Oracles, or Sorcerers. They must be Lawful Good, however.


So far it doesn't seem like there's much out there that doesn't force a certain build, class, or alignment on you.


'cause you mention archers, a dip of Zen archer can mesh well with a general archer build. Nets A bonus to all saves, and comes with perfect strike, a bonus feat, and monk unarmed strikes. Minuses, 1 BAB loss, deferred class progression by 1 level. Another level gives more saves, another bonus feat, and evasion. Good deal for a fighter, who would probably need saves more than a ranger, say.

Amber Spindle Ioun stones give a stackable resistance bonus to saves, Others boost the stats a save is based on.

Shadow Lodge

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pally/monk with the healing hands (or something like that) monk archetype and the pally ultimate mercy ability, you can res people left and right, remove negative levels, ability damage, harmful effects heal like a mad man, AND have the best saves in the game. while making a flurry of blows you will have a full bab, so the multi-class isn't so bad on damage potential. then you can take the feat that allows you to flurry with a favored weapon, if you don't like hitting unarmed.


As a general purpose widget, there is the weapon property warding. It is a +1 bonus, and allows you to transfer the weapon bonus to your saves if it is being wielded. It is quite practical for most characters to wear a cestus (light, simple weapon) or armour spikes, continously wielded, doesn't occupy your hand...
However, This is not an optimal method of boosting saves in terms of cost - a +5, the highest this could give you, will cost on the order of 72000 gp (+6 weapon enchantment). A Cloak of Resistance +5 is 25000... Still, it is potentially useful at high levels.

Liberty's Edge

I'm playing a CG human sorcerer in our current campaign, and I use a Wand of Bestow Grace and Use Magic Device to add my Charisma to saves (presently +9) for any encounters that I see coming. Later, I'll be crafting a custom item (already given GM's permission) that will be a Vest of Bestow Grace (constant Charisma to saves) [chest slot].

This only works if your character is good aligned and has a high Charisma, but I didn't need to level dip anywhere else to get it.


Charender wrote:
Maddigan wrote:

A build I'm playing around with.

Monk 2
Paladin 3
Inquisitor 15

Gives the following:
Evasion
Stalwart
Charisma bonus on saves
Good Fort and Will
Slight bonus on reflex saves
Bonus saves from judgment

Once all stacked together the saves are insane. And if you make your save, no effect.

Don't forget...

-Shake It Off + Solo tactics which mean that he get a +1 save for each adjacent ally up to a max of 4. You need to be at least a level 3 Inquisitor for Solo Tactics for this trick to work.
- You can cast Heroism which gives +2 morale bonus to all saves for 150 minutes per cast
- You can cast Prayer which gives +1 luck bonus to all saves for 15 rounds
- If you pick the freedom domain you would get 15 rounds of immunity to any effect that impedes your movement

So add another +3 to +7 to all your saves, and on demand freedom of movement.

The spells and teamwork feats make the combo even more attractive from an invincible saves perspective.


I don't think any of you already talked about Luck Stone.

The Exchange

Ashiel wrote:
Paladin. Especially since they gave them a spell in the APG that can allow them to legally add their Charisma to saves twice. Bestow Grace is the spell, and it allows you to grant a creature an Insight bonus equal to the creature's Charisma modifier to all saves; stacks with Divine Grace. It's also only a 2nd level spell, so arguably epic on any other Charisma based character via a potion: Bards, Oracles, or Sorcerers. They must be Lawful Good, however.

Erm, according to the PRD that's a sacred bonus. Same as a Paladin's regular bonus, so they wouldn't stack. It can be made into a potion but the limited duration (7 minutes at the first castable level) can be a downside. You need only be good, not lawful good. Bear in mind you can make a UMD check to emulate an alignment.

Liberty's Edge

Shake It off is a brilliant Feat for a team to have. One feat for +4 saves assuming you are all within 30ft of each other. I would encourage my party to get it


Belafon wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Paladin. Especially since they gave them a spell in the APG that can allow them to legally add their Charisma to saves twice. Bestow Grace is the spell, and it allows you to grant a creature an Insight bonus equal to the creature's Charisma modifier to all saves; stacks with Divine Grace. It's also only a 2nd level spell, so arguably epic on any other Charisma based character via a potion: Bards, Oracles, or Sorcerers. They must be Lawful Good, however.
Erm, according to the PRD that's a sacred bonus. Same as a Paladin's regular bonus, so they wouldn't stack. It can be made into a potion but the limited duration (7 minutes at the first castable level) can be a downside. You need only be good, not lawful good. Bear in mind you can make a UMD check to emulate an alignment.

Divine Grace has no bonus type, so it is stackable.

@Ashiel: also, any LG CHA user with Bestow Grace and Bestow Grace of the Champion can add twice his CHA to all saves without a level in the Paladin Class.

The Exchange

You are correct. Don't know why I thought it was a sacred bonus. Back to sleep now.


45ur4 wrote:
@Ashiel: also, any LG CHA user with Bestow Grace and Bestow Grace of the Champion can add twice his CHA to all saves without a level in the Paladin Class.

*facepalm* Dangit, I bet I know which designer was behind that spell. That's a great idea for a spell. Lets give all the casters more spells that turn them into 10th level other classes for as long as they need it with no loss of ability. /sarcasm


Maddigan wrote:
Charender wrote:


Don't forget...
-Shake It Off + Solo tactics which mean that he get a +1 save for each adjacent ally up to a max of 4. You need to be at least a level 3 Inquisitor for Solo Tactics for this trick to work.
- You can cast Heroism which gives +2 morale bonus to all saves for 150 minutes per cast
- You can cast Prayer which gives +1 luck bonus to all saves for 15 rounds
- If you pick the freedom domain you would get 15 rounds of immunity to any effect that impedes your movement

So add another +3 to +7 to all your saves, and on demand freedom of movement.

The spells and teamwork feats make the combo even more attractive from an invincible saves perspective.

For the inquisitor, it has a lot to do with Solo Tactics and that you get teamworks feats as bonus feats. That way you pick the teamwork feats you want(like Shake it Off), and if your teammates get them great, if not you still get the benefit via Solo Tactics. Also, Solo Tactics is really useful if you are with a group that uses lots of sumoned monsters or something similar, because you can't control what feats summoned monsters take, but they still count as having the feat for your benefit.


Ashiel wrote:
*facepalm* Dangit, I bet I know which designer was behind that spell. That's a great idea for a spell. Lets give all the casters more spells that turn them into 10th level other classes for as long as they need it with no loss of ability. /sarcasm

It'll be a laugh when an evil sorcerer gets a wand or staff with bestow grace (likely stolen) and UMDs being lawful good when activating it. :P


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
*facepalm* Dangit, I bet I know which designer was behind that spell. That's a great idea for a spell. Lets give all the casters more spells that turn them into 10th level other classes for as long as they need it with no loss of ability. /sarcasm
It'll be a laugh when an evil sorcerer gets a wand or staff with bestow grace (likely stolen) and UMDs being lawful good when activating it. :P

Interesting, you don't have to be good to cast it, the target must be good. I don't think UMD lets you imitate the alignment of the target.

Either way, my CG bard needs to pick up a scroll or wand of Bestow Grace...


Umbral Reaver wrote:
It'll be a laugh when an evil sorcerer gets a wand or staff with bestow grace (likely stolen) and UMDs being lawful good when activating it. :P

Question is, does that work? Does tricking the item about your alignment also trick the spell?

I've been thinking, not so much, but if there's some kind of rules backing for that I'd be genuinely interested in seeing it. One of the characters I'm playing right now is a non-good-aligned UMD fiend.


If it's made into an item, it probably should work. UMD lets you emulate an alignment for the purposes of benefiting from a magic item. So I think it'd let you count as the alignment for using it on yourself but if you zap others with it, it wouldn't work.

Or make it as a wondrous item. That would definitely work.


No, it won't work, because it's the target's alignment that matters, and UMD doesn't affect that. UMD only lets you activate magic items that you couldn't normally activate.


Oh, whoops. Good point. I suppose that means I'll have to ban it from my home games (no real loss). Paladins don't need mechanical incentive to bully other party members into being LG.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I once made a halfling paladin/monk who wasn't good for anything but saving throws... :)


Dot

Dark Archive

I have a Paladin/Oracle/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight with pretty decent saves:
CHA to Reflex instead of DEX from sidestep secret.
CHA to Will instead of WIS from Steadfast Personality.
CHA to all saves again from divine grace.

Also:
CHA to AC instead of DEX (her DEX is 7)
CHA to AC again when smiting.
CHA to hit when smiting.
CHA to a bunch of skills not normally CHA based.

Still trying to figure out how to get CHA to initiative . . .


That runs against an FAQ unfortunately, but noble scion can get you cha to initiative (it's a feat).


The highest saves I've seen in a functional character is steelsoul dwarf paladin 2 / monk 1 / sorcerer remainder. I don't remember which bloodline.

Yes, his spells were at least a level lower, but he was free to use all his feats to pump his offensive spell casting. He also made good use of a few versatile buffs.
Folding plate and a rod of still spell if he felt the need for more AC. The monk level helped when not using the plate and gave him access to a few monk magic items. His hp were much better than expected for a squishy caster. He almost never failed a save.

A totally different concept I want to try is only for a group that uses hero points (mine does sometimes). Human dual cursed oracle with the human heroic race trait and all 3 hero point feats. Rather than super high saves, I will rely on rerolls almost at will.


If you're talking about patching up weak saves and using fixed resonance rules then the resonance for the clear spindle ioun stone is handy (always on protection from evil).

If you lose a bet or something and decide to play a rogue, Twist Away is nice. You can't cheese away the staggered condition any more, but your reflex save will dwarf your fortitude save and being staggered is a small price to pay. Might be useful for swashbucklers as well although the gap won't be as dramatic.

Silver Crusade

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it yet but the fate's favored trait is a very useful save maximizing tool.

Half-orc sacred tattoo alternate racial ability grants a luck bonus to saves. Fate's favored increases that.

A Cleric, warpriest, inquisitor, or oracle with the prayer spell can tack an extra +1 onto the save bonus from the spell (as well as the attack and damage bonus) with the trait.

Any character with a luckstone or a luckblade (the no-wishes version still gives a daily save re-roll and a +1 to saves and a nice back-up weapon) gets an extra +1 to saves out of the trait.

Courageous weapons are generally thought of as being for barbarians but anyone who frequently uses Heroism or another source of morale bonuses gets to add half the enhancement bonus of the weapon to their saves (and nearly everything else with Heroism).


Unless your GM is using fractional bonuses, multi-multi-classing is a great way to increase at least two saves by +2 per level instead of +1. My inquisitor/ftr/rog/clr/mnk/wiz/brd/bbn/rgr had across the board +20s, before ability scores, items, or spells were added.


Elder Basilisk wrote:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it yet but the fate's favored trait is a very useful save maximizing tool.

I suspect no one's mentioned it since the thread stopped sometime in 2011 (until Monday, that is), and Ultimate Campaign was released in 2013. There is no save against thread necromancy. ;)


There's a save against thread necromancy, but no one has that high of a will save to resist, nor a high enough Fortitude to overcome the disease of rehashing, and of course the reflex save to avoid being dragged back into old arguments is like.. impossible.

Fate favours no one here, friends.


Iron Casters usually have high fortitude saves.


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Cavall wrote:

There's a save against thread necromancy, but no one has that high of a will save to resist, nor a high enough Fortitude to overcome the disease of rehashing, and of course the reflex save to avoid being dragged back into old arguments is like.. impossible.

Fate favours no one here, friends.

2020. Can confirm.

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