The short version is this: We have a player who constantly makes mistakes with his character.
These mistakes are hard to categorize, and I believe they are genuine. Some examples are:
- He went a whole session using a class ability for a Level 8 Oracle. He only has 5 levels of Oracle, but applied the ability because his character is level 8.
- He has applied metamagic feats to wands and scrolls.
- He has taken feats for which he does not meet the prerequisites.
- He uses items (like armor and weapons) with which he is not proficient, without applying a penalty.
- Mostly, he only half-way remembers how his class abilities, feats, spells, magic items, etc. work. So, he either uses them wrong or forgets to apply penalties, or uses them when he doesn't have the ability to do so, or gets upset when we tell him that they don't work the way he thought.
With the constantly expanding number of classes, alternate classes, and archetypes, as well as feats, alternate spellcasting and combat rules, it is becoming increasingly difficult to remember what abilities a character has. I don't believe anyone in my group would intentionally cheat (this person included), but I feel like repeated offenses require some kind of action. Basically, I'd like to be able to say, "If this continues to be a problem, ______________ is going to happen."
The problem: I don't know how to fill in the blank... Your thoughts?
1.You could try sitting down with him as he levels/makes new characters and explain things as he goes.
2.Encourage him to make cheat sheets of his abilities so he can speed reference them.
3.Ask them to consider a simpler class until they better understand the basics.
4.If all else fails you may have to replace them.
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you are going to have to make a simple fighter. ;)
Attack, BAM
Thats it.
:)
On another note, go with him/her throwout the leveling experience, and do mock battles to make sure he remembers what to do, when he tries to do things wrong, note them, and make sure he doesn't do them in the real game.
Work with him to teach him the game, not against him.
You need a copy of his char sheet (ask for copies of everyones sheets) and you need to glance at it when he takes an action to double-check. If he asks, explain that you're trying to insure mistakes aren't made any more. That would be what I would do.
It'd be a different story if you believed he was knowingly cheating, but since that doesn't seem to be the case...
Good advice from all. I think, in some ways, we are all suffering from class bloat. In some ways, we depend on players knowing their characters/archetypes and their abilities. Often it's a gut instinct that something seems overpowered or unusual that leads me to researching the **insert action here**. In all fairness, sometimes it works just like he says it does. Like I posted earlier, it's mostly just a sort-of neglect to apply penalties or a belief that he has access to something when he doesn't.
No, I do not believe he is knowingly cheating.
I believe in using the carrot, but I also think you need the stick. I would like something less extreme, much less extreme, than replacing him. But, I think if he sees that there is a penalty to being neglectful of the rules, it reinforces the necessity of following them.
No, I do not believe he is knowingly cheating.I believe in using the carrot, but I also think you need the stick. I would like something less extreme, much less extreme, than replacing him. But, I think if he sees that there is a penalty to being neglectful of the rules, it reinforces the necessity of following them.
I've had a player like this, not a cheat just not paying that much attention since he wanted to jump in and play.
Work with them when they level, try and use tools that help - spell cards where a god send to mine since he had trouble tracking spell usage.
Check out different character sheets, maybe there's one that can present the information in a way that works better for the player.
If there is a penalty try and make it an in game one, one of the Oracle's patrons intervenes and offers some form of atonement around the mistake the player was making or some such.
It applies a consequence for the mistakes but since its about the character and not the player it might be easier for the player to work with, not so personal. Though that will, of course, depend on your player.
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I've stopped using a character sheet when I play.
<waits for shocked silence>
No, I don't play blind. But I no longer use those fancy-fonted sheets, broken down into needlessly pedantic sections, with tiny spaces, where you can only fit the name of the feat/ability, and then you have to put half of them somewhere else because the designated space hasn't enough lines....
I strip out the distracting chaff, and set my PC up like a stat-block. It's easier on the eye, and it's more intuitive where things are, after using them so long as GM.
It also allows me to lay all the abilities out in alphabetical order, so I no longer have to remember whether something was a feat, a talent, a domain, a racial ability, etc. I cut and paste the relevant text, edit for space and better layout, and off I go.
When it's my turn, I know the action type, time taken, DC, save type, and enough description to run it without debate, most of the time.
It does mean that for complex PCs, you may have 5-6 sides of A4, but it's still more efficient for me, than having 1-2 sides of A4, that don't include the relevant info.
Far better than having to remember you have it, find a one-line entry on your character sheet, and still have to crack open the book every time (and where is it in the book? which book is it in?), or use it from faulty memory.
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An example of what I'm talking about; obviously the real version is formatted better, with bold, italic, offsets, hanging tabs for subsets of info (like the hexes. I keep them all together, but under a heading of Hex, so the general rules apply to them all.).
I colour-code the skills, blue for class skill, bold for trained, so it's straightforward to level up.
I colour-code bonus feats (in this case, Alertness and Weapon proficiencies), so I can tell instantly how many I've actually spent from my level allotment.
It looks like a lot, but using double-columns, it only just goes over one side of A4, and that's only because I inserted a large picture, and justified the rows to prevent cutting ability descriptions in two. There's plenty of space for levelling several times and still keeping everything I need on one double-sided sheet.
FAIELLA CR1
Elf witch 2
CG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +3, Senses low-light vision, Perception +5
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Sylvan +1 other
-------------------------------------
AC 13 (touch 13, flat-footed 10)
hp 12 (2d6)
CMD 14
DR
Immune sleep
Resist +2 vs enchantment
Vulnerable
Fort +0, Ref +5 (+2 fox), Will +5 (+2 vs ench)
-----------------------------------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee rapier +1 (1d6/18-20)
Ranged shortbow +4 (1d6/x3)
Base Atk +1; CMB +1
Atk Options
Special Actions healing hex (d8+2), evil eye (-2)
Cantrips (4/day) light, message, read magic, stabilise
Hexes: evil eye, healing
Spells (3/day, patron – Agility, DC 13+ spell level)
Level 1: burning hands, charm person, delusional pride, enlarge person, hypnotism, jump, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, remove sickness
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 11, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 11
SQ +2 to identify items, +2 to overcome SR
Feats Alertness, Scribe Scroll, Weapon Proficiency (all simple, bows, longsword & rapier)
Skills (10 +2 favored) Acrobatics (Dex) +4, Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha) +1, Heal (Wis) +6, Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (dung), Knowledge (eng), Knowledge (geog), Knowledge (hist), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (planes), Knowledge (religion), Linguistics (Int) +4, Perception (Wis+2) +5, Perform (Cha), Profession (fortune-teller)(Wis) +6, Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) +3, Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int) +7, Stealth (Dex) +4, Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha) +4.
Equipment:
Gypsy outfit
Rapier
Shortbow
Quiver + 20 arrows
Backpack
Healer's kit
Fortune teller's deck
Marked gaming cards
gp 25
Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar to a 1 mile distance. The master can communicate emphatically with the familiar, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared. The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does.
<insert picture>
Familiar (Ex): At 1st level, a witch forms a close bond with a familiar, a creature that teaches her magic and helps to guide her along her path. Familiars also aid a witch by granting her skill bonuses, additional spells, and help with some types of magic. This functions like the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except as noted in the Witch’s Familiar section.
A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch’s familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st-level spells of the witch’s choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level)to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual (see sidebar).
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table: Witch. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier.
......Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate wounds.
......Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch’s choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4.
Share Spells (Su): The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
<supplementary sheet for familiar stats and abilities>
<sheet with full spell list from all sources Core/APG/UM, so I know instantly if any found scrolls can be learned>
There's very little I need to look up during the game; I circle the spells I've prepared that day, most are second nature. You could always print out a cheat sheet for these, too.
Because it's not a fancy sheet, there's no hesitation in striking something out, or writing over. It's just ink on copier paper, and I can perform any updates between sessions on the PC.
I use a custom PC sheet that I write out by hand, in pencil, on a regular lined sheet of paper. I'm so used to it, I now convert monsters to it so it's easier for me to run them when I DM.
You might want to make your problem player re-write his character sheet. That way, he has to go over everything again and kind of re-learn it. And with you there to help him, it will remove any confusion about class level, character level, caster level, etc. etc.
It also sounds like he's multi-classed. You might want to single-class him. That way, he only has to worry about 1 class worth of features. Especially if he is not using the other class's abilities. We did this in a campaign I play in, and it really made things easier for everyone. The roleplaying is the same, but the mechanics are easier and more fun for that player.
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Other ways to reduce mistakes at the table, and save a ton of time.
Spell cards, especially for those with many options, such as Summon Monster/Nature's Ally.
How many times do you all know what a spell does, but it makes a difference whether it's range close or medium? Is it dismissable?
<Groan. Get out the book. Stop play.>
Stat cards for summoned creatures.
They're your creatures. You should know how they work. Not by constantly borrowing the GM's Bestiary, that he's trying to run the game with, and losing his place for him.
Feat cards. Same idea as spell cards, but for the martially inclined.
All of these are available as printable pdfs from multiple vendors, for a few dollars. If they can save you several hours per month, reduce the need to back-track ('Okay, the orc chief isn't dead, after all. Bob did an illegal move last week' "Awwww, maaaaan!"), and force the players to actually read the rules of their own PC until they click, it's money well spent.
The short version is this: We have a player who constantly makes mistakes with his character.
These mistakes are hard to categorize, and I believe they are genuine. Some examples are:
- He went a whole session using a class ability for a Level 8 Oracle. He only has 5 levels of Oracle, but applied the ability because his character is level 8.
- He has applied metamagic feats to wands and scrolls.
- He has taken feats for which he does not meet the prerequisites.
- He uses items (like armor and weapons) with which he is not proficient, without applying a penalty.
- Mostly, he only half-way remembers how his class abilities, feats, spells, magic items, etc. work. So, he either uses them wrong or forgets to apply penalties, or uses them when he doesn't have the ability to do so, or gets upset when we tell him that they don't work the way he thought.With the constantly expanding number of classes, alternate classes, and archetypes, as well as feats, alternate spellcasting and combat rules, it is becoming increasingly difficult to remember what abilities a character has. I don't believe anyone in my group would intentionally cheat (this person included), but I feel like repeated offenses require some kind of action. Basically, I'd like to be able to say, "If this continues to be a problem, ______________ is going to happen."
The problem: I don't know how to fill in the blank... Your thoughts?
I would have him explain exactly what he is doing. That would have caught the metamagic + scroll situation.
It seems he is not taking his own time to learn the rules, and only touches the book at the table. I would restrict him to basic classes until he learns the rules.
- He has applied metamagic feats to wands and scrolls.
Do you mean he crafts wands/scriolls with metamagic? That is legal. If you meant randomly, did he ever explain what the +X slot adjustment was doing then?
I use PCGen a lot, but if I'm having difficulty understanding the mechanics of some class or character (which happens fairly often with multiclassing. BLECH!), I will build out the character using pencil and paper. This forces me to think through the mechanics on a rule-by-rule basis. Another thing that's helped me a lot is browsing through the rules section of this forum, finding questions or comments regarding something my character does, look up the rules, and contribute to the conversation.
If I'm wrong, people let me know :)
I would have him explain exactly what he is doing. That would have caught the metamagic + scroll situation.
It seems he is not taking his own time to learn the rules, and only touches the book at the table. I would restrict him to basic classes until he learns the rules.
We do catch them, sometimes during the session. Often, though, something is left to slide, for smooth flow of play, until we have a chance to check it later. Restricting him to base classes, at this point, would be extrordinarily punitive. I guess that's why I'm looking for some kind of penalty I can apply, if the situation continues.
Is he aware of his problems? One of the players in my group has a shaky grasp of the rules, and has problems with modifiers. He asked that we audit his character, check his numbers, and make cheat-sheets for him.
Spell cards are great, as are printing out lists of the feats he has. Ease of access without overload is the goal.
Cheating via ignorance/incompetence is a lot easier to deal with then malicious cheating.
My GM found something that fixed our problems, specially when we were entering level 8th and things started to get messy.
Hero Lab
We loaded our sheets in there, and every level we print them out, withouth mistakes or anything, you can see a breakdown of your AC, attacks etc etc
Very simple and it doesnt allow you to "cheat".
My GM found something that fixed our problems, specially when we were entering level 8th and things started to get messy.
Hero Lab
We loaded our sheets in there, and every level we print them out, withouth mistakes or anything, you can see a breakdown of your AC, attacks etc etc
Very simple and it doesnt allow you to "cheat".
This. PCGen and Herolab are greats ways to validate characters to makes sure they are valid. It also allows me to have all of the characters information available during a session without having to ask the players.
What level are you starting at. I think playing at level 1 is simplier and may be a lot easier to grasp the rules with simpler characters. Maybe this player got in over his head.
I would suggest hero lab also.
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You could insists that player have at hand at all times the full descriptions of their feats, powers and class features.
Have them copy and paste the information from the online documents or pdfs onto a few pages and print them out.
Just a few sheets so that they can hand them over to you if suspect something is wrong.
One problem with hero lab is the game could have problems if the power goes out unless the battery lasts long enough on the laptop. Also the GM should back up the characters so they are not lost if the computer craps out.
I found I also have trouble keeping track of details when you have a character with a lot going on (caster, situational bonuses, companions/cohorts, metamagic, etc.) What really helped me was finding a google docs spreadsheet for the character that I could update in real time as I used spells or lost health (without having it covered in erasure marks). I could also add my own sheets to the workbook to track other bits of information that a character sheet doesn't provide- I have used it for everything from planning level advancement (detailing which spells and abilities a character gains at each level on one chart goes a long way towards avoiding "level five oracle with level eight ability") to totaling gear purchases to outlining an upcoming leadership feat.
The other half of my strategy involves creating a bookmarks folder that is dedicated to that character. In the folder I have a link to the character sheet, as well as links to the most common pages I need to reference (for example my sorcerer's bloodline page, a page showing patterns for spells of different sizes, everything you never wanted to know about movement rules, etc.). I also have a subfolder with links to every spell known by my character, and named the links according to spell name and level, i.e. Color Spray (1).
So now I have everything I could ever want to know about this character's mechanics at my fingertips, and organized in such a way that all I need to do is scan over the folder and wait for the page to load. It helped immensely in both preparing the character properly and in making rules-based decisions quickly.
Of course, it relies on having a computer and an internet connection- seldom a problem for me, but may be for others. I'm sure paper-based alternatives could be generated (like organizing the spell descriptions into a doc file and printing it out, etc.)
Slightly off-topic (and not intending to derail the thread, just a small question) but to all the folks here posting about having to pull out books and listing all these minute details on their character sheets, etc.:
Are you folks not familiar with the PRD? There's also an amazing app on Android phones called "Spells" that puts everything on the PRD in a quick-searchable format for your phone. The PRD even has a mobile version now that you can access on non-android phones. Every bit of info you could possibly want is there, cut and pasted directly from the books, and hyperlinked for ease of cross-referencing or what have you.
Truly no snark intended, I'm just genuinely curious why more people don't use these *amazing* resources to make their lives easier.
I use the PRD extensively; I just make shortcuts to the information I need to look at frequently so I don't have to go through a search each time.
However, I think a lot of people when they sit down to game don't have a computer with internet in front of them, or a smartphone (either available- some GMs don't like phones at the table- or at all, as it's an unnecessary and expensive device). Therefore they need printed resources of some kind to access during play.
The player might not care much about the game or is not having fun.
Or is just scatterbrained. Or is supremely bored by the rules even if they find the actual play interesting. Or finds the amount of material s/he needs to assimilate to construct the character overwhelming. Or just doesn't understand that to this GM and group constant rules errors are impacting their own game enjoyment (seeing it as a smaller problem than they do). *shrugs* I think it's kind of a leap to assume that the player must dislike the game- usually when that is happening it gets expressed in different ways, passive-aggressive behavior, disengagement from actual play, texting/reading/having side convos, etc., even if the player is unwilling to come right out and say it.
One problem with hero lab is the game could have problems if the power goes out unless the battery lasts long enough on the laptop. Also the GM should back up the characters so they are not lost if the computer craps out.
print out character sheets from hero lab.
scott seligmans spells app is awesome, it did get a little quirky at the last update but im sure he'll fix it right up for the next update.
another awesome app( i download rpg apps compulsively it seems) is ufisk PFR
both of those apps work faster than using pdfs by far. i use the spells app for a spellbook reference primarily and the ufisk PFR for quick lookups of rules.
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I just have to give a different view.
Personally, I strongly dislike HeroLab or PCGen. The Pathfinder stat block is great for monsters and NPCs, for which all that really matters is how it gets used. For PCs, though, it ends up stripping nice, easily calculable level progressions. I won't use it for PCs.
Character sheets are easily updatable on computers and can be printed out without relying on the mess that stat blocks cause. Nowadays, I put all the PC sheets on a wiki and update from there--anyone can see and double-check the sheets from there, game world info can be added, and anyone can check it and its update history even when the game isn't in session.
Finally, the GM should always be knowledgeable of the capabilities of the PCs. The wiki helps with that, as does slow-enough level progression. Everyone knows and announces what new gimmicks the PCs have.
Personally, I strongly dislike HeroLab or PCGen. The Pathfinder stat block is great for monsters and NPCs, for which all that really matters is how it gets used. For PCs, though, it ends up stripping nice, easily calculable level progressions. I won't use it for PCs.
Umm wha? You are aware that both PCGen and Herolab make full character sheets (in addition to a various set of statblocks) aren't you?