Material Spell Components: Mechanics vs. Flavor


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Material (M)

A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Here's the link just in case:Magic: Components

I'm wondering if there are any GMs out there that don't just hand-wave components. I'm thinking of having my casters not only take a bit of time while they're adventuring to "forage" for components, but also keep some kind of a tally on their use. My thought here is that when I have a party of PCs that spend months or more out in the wilderness, we keep a pretty close eye on food and water (after their provisions have run out). It feels to me like spell components would run out too, if you weren't constantly on the lookout for those: leaves, roots, seeds, spores, feathers, barks, dusts, minerals, fungi, etc. that are useful for casting.

I understand that from a mechanics perspective components that are of negligible value are supposed to be hand-waved, but I feel like that takes something away from the simulationism of being a caster dependent on the natural world to provide you with things that are necessary for you to cast your spells. Anybody out there that doesn't just hand-wave it? If so, how does it work/ how has it worked for you and your groups?


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As soon as you tell your players that spell components must be tracked, don't be surprised if the only arcane casters your get from then on are either sorcerers or take the eschew materials feat.


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I'm still trying to figure out how you keep track of food and water after your provisions have run out :p

I must also admit we hand-wave the negligible-cost components. I wouldn't want to keep track of components for my prepared-casters. My wizards tend to learn oodles of spells, while clerics and druids know their entire spell lists. If I had to track the number of uses they had of each spell, it'd get tedious real quick. Also, if you're going to be simulationist, shouldn't you also want to know how much each component encumbers the bearer? No thanks again to that.


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Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.

Cost: 5gp

Cheap enough to buy a couple every time you're in town.

Good enough for me!

:)


Noah Fentz wrote:

Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.

Cost: 5gp

Cheap enough to buy a couple every time you're in town.

Good enough for me!

:)

Right, I get it. I can see a wizard with maybe four or five of these hanging on his belt, and just dipping in whenever is necessary.

They're negligible weight even when full.

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Pouch, Spell Component

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.

Empty Weight: 1/4 lb.1 Capacity: 1/8 cubic ft./2 lb.1

1 When made for Medium characters. Weighs one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters. Weighs twice the normal amount when made for Large characters. Containers carry one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters.

I'm not arguing the mechanics; I know the designers have said this is something that shouldn't be kept track of (more than likely because it would just become a nightmare to track). But really when you think about it, it doesn't have to be. I mean many GMs have their players keep track of arrows, or crossbow bolts. I'm sure there are probably only a handful of GMs that don't have their characters keep track of charges on wands.

That's the same way I keep track of food and water, a small grid where one check goes in for each day of consumption (there's more too it than that, like if you want to stretch supplies you can diagonal slice the box and check half, or in extreme circumstances X the box and shade in one triangle--that's neither here nor there). Because of this my players frequently hunt for wild meat, vegetables, and fresh water when they make camp. In fact, they've even taken to taking the meat from beasts they kill and having their ranger(cook) prepare it for travel. It adds a lot of flavor to the wilderness setting, with miniscule work. When they add provisions to their stores, we add boxes to their grid based on pounds of food, or volume of water. (FEMA says the average, active person needs half a gallon of water a day, not sure I agree, but we use a pretty similar guideline.)

In my mind it would be a pretty easy thing to do for spell components too.

A full pouch is two pounds, say you use an ounce for each spell, that's 32 uses per pouch. You could drop it down and say you use a half-ounce per spell, and then you get 64 uses out of a pouch. It's not really that difficult to keep track of. Cast a spell, tick a box on a 64 gridded table or sheet of graph paper. I've found that just the visual representation puts players in the mindset that they should always be on the lookout for this sort of thing. In a cave? Ooooh, there's some useful bat guano.

Silver Crusade

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I remember back in high school, our history teacher, ran the D&D club. This was back in 89, 90 around that time. We were playing 1st edition.

He did a brilliant job running adventures. Mr. Army ( the history teacher) would even take my silly questions about the Hieroglyphics- wether they looked Mayan or Egyptian and answer them. There came a moment where we had to cross a chasm. After some debate, i was playing the mage in that game, i decided to cast spider climb so i my character could climb up one wall, over the ceiling and down the wall on the other side while carrying a rope. Mr Army asked us what we were going to do. I informed him of our plan, and i told him that i cast spider climb on myself. Mr Army asked me if i had a small spider. I replied "yes i think its in my had...that's the materiel component for the spell right?" Mr Army said " yes but nothing happens" I replied " what? ok i try to cast the spell again"Mr Army commented " you have to eat the spider to make the spell work"

The look on all of our faces must have been priceless.....Ewww......" All right my character eats the spider, but he is holding his nose" .

We did get across the cavern, But i'll never forget that moment where my mage was looking at the spider in his hand.....and he realized he had to eat it.

As much as i like spell components, Ask your players. See if they like the idea of keeping track of spell components.

If you have a 1st level wizard or sorcerer it probably would not be too difficult to list the spells on a 3x5 card, list the components, and check off each time someone cast a spell, as a use of said component.

you might want to say, a spell component pouch has five uses per spell, something like that.


I remember back in first ed. hunting material components. running out of them, keeping track etc. it does become a bookeeping situation. and alot more of the game begins revolving around that, which is ok if you have multiple casters that use components, but the rest of the party is unlikely to be enthused by your proposed expedition to collect bat guano.
might make for some interesting story hooks though, and a detective element to the game, finding out whose buying what can help you figure out what they can cast, or if they are desperate for some component, maybe thats the time to strike, because they cant cast.
if you do go to a system like that though you might want to get rid of eschew materials, or make it a sorcerer only feat.


You are SUPPOSED to just hand wave the components. The game is dungeons and dragons, not ledgers and logistics.

Quote:
It feels to me like spell components would run out too, if you weren't constantly on the lookout for those: leaves, roots, seeds, spores, feathers, barks, dusts, minerals, fungi, etc. that are useful for casting.

Its just going to annoy the PLAYERS with another level of book keeping. If you were on an island and trying to get off, mayby this would be relevant. But are you really going to try to figure out how many uses are in the component pouch to start with? Exactly how many eyes of newt are in a pinch?


MendedWall12 wrote:
full pouch is two pounds, say you use an ounce for each spell, that's 32 uses per pouch. You could drop it down and say you use a half-ounce per spell, and then you get 64 uses out of a pouch. It's not really that difficult to keep track of. Cast a spell, tick a box on a 64 gridded table or sheet of graph paper. I've found that just the visual representation puts players in the mindset that they should always be on the lookout for this sort of thing. In a cave? Ooooh, there's some useful bat guano.

Your still just handwaving now your just handwaving what the actual component is. So now i have to track components but as a single item not as what they are. So if all i cast in my 64 uses is fire ball all i had in my pouch was its components?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
full pouch is two pounds, say you use an ounce for each spell, that's 32 uses per pouch. You could drop it down and say you use a half-ounce per spell, and then you get 64 uses out of a pouch. It's not really that difficult to keep track of. Cast a spell, tick a box on a 64 gridded table or sheet of graph paper. I've found that just the visual representation puts players in the mindset that they should always be on the lookout for this sort of thing. In a cave? Ooooh, there's some useful bat guano.
Your still just handwaving now your just handwaving what the actual component is. So now i have to track components but as a single item not as what they are. So if all i cast in my 64 uses is fire ball all i had in my pouch was its components?

That's a lot of bat guano


It's a game, so focus on the fun parts. If you have the most fun while tracking iron fillings, bat guano, live spiders, etc. then do that. If you're a GM and you feel that, if you were a player, you'd have the most fun tracking this stuff, then do it.

Don't let the stuff that's not fun take up play time. Sadomassochism isn't a virtue.


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Quote:
Sadomassochism isn't a virtue.

But its a living


I'm kind of surprised they even kept the material components for Pathfinder.

I like the idea for flaver... but mechanincally, they're annoying and leech the fun....

and they're pointless...

This was one sitution where they spent WAY too much time detailing the components out in the rules... they have Material... they foci... they have some that are consumed on use... some that are not...

then they cap it off with 'but these are all in your pouch and your assumed to have them.'

If your just assumed to have the components... then what difference does it make if it's Material or Foci or whatever??

Personally I love the Eschew materials just so I don't get bogged down with stuff like that...


BigNorseWolf wrote:

You are SUPPOSED to just hand wave the components. The game is dungeons and dragons, not ledgers and logistics.

Quote:
It feels to me like spell components would run out too, if you weren't constantly on the lookout for those: leaves, roots, seeds, spores, feathers, barks, dusts, minerals, fungi, etc. that are useful for casting.

Its just going to annoy the PLAYERS with another level of book keeping. If you were on an island and trying to get off, mayby this would be relevant. But are you really going to try to figure out how many uses are in the component pouch to start with? Exactly how many eyes of newt are in a pinch?

I agree with this. The game is supposed to be run. Tracking all of that stuff is not fun, well not for me anyway. I would at least ask the players. Annoying the PC's and annoying the players are two different things. It is not good to annoy the player.


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i think much of the older rule-sets appeal came from the layers of sometimes indistinguishable flavor/rules/details/errors.
layers upon layers. segments, turns. the sometimes supremely disgusting material components for spells that make you wonder how a lawful good caster could even cast clairvoyance(a pinch of powdered pineal gland from a human or humanoid creature). the complexities of the rule-set meant that everybody house-ruled something if not many things. rarely did everyone use all the rules all the time. but it was great fun. pathfinder is great fun too.. maybe some of the solutions to the problems some people see in the current system can be fixed by house-ruling in some elements from way back. there is a vocal group that thinks that spell-casters are overpowered, maybe the bookkeeping and material component hunting would solve their issues. i personally like keeping track of such things, i find it immersive , but role-playing minutia like that can be a strain and is not for everyone.


Expressing a memorable character is roleplaying.

Keeping pages of charts and numbers and keeping track of meaningless minutae is not. I don't think other players would remember your wizard for his or her expressions, emotions, motivations and foibles. They would remember the nit-picking player insisting on tracking useless nothings. That's not roleplaying.


phantom1592 wrote:

I'm kind of surprised they even kept the material components for Pathfinder.

I like the idea for flaver... but mechanincally, they're annoying and leech the fun....

and they're pointless...

This was one sitution where they spent WAY too much time detailing the components out in the rules... they have Material... they foci... they have some that are consumed on use... some that are not...

then they cap it off with 'but these are all in your pouch and your assumed to have them.'

If your just assumed to have the components... then what difference does it make if it's Material or Foci or whatever??

Personally I love the Eschew materials just so I don't get bogged down with stuff like that...

You still have to be able to reach them, and they have a place in the rules since some of them are expensive for spells. Another idea is that sundering a spell component pouch can shut a caster down.


Quote:
You still have to be able to reach them, and they have a place in the rules since some of them are expensive for spells. Another idea is that sundering a spell component pouch can shut a caster down.

I'm not sure how effective that is. I mean, if the wizard needs sand for a sleep spell he can probably snag it off his hip where the pouch was sundered.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
You still have to be able to reach them, and they have a place in the rules since some of them are expensive for spells. Another idea is that sundering a spell component pouch can shut a caster down.
I'm not sure how effective that is. I mean, if the wizard needs sand for a sleep spell he can probably snag it off his hip where the pouch was sundered.

If the GM allows it, and even then it is only one spell. By the rules a sundered object is an object that can't be used if the broken condition is applied to it. If you have a man-purse and someone slices it then the contents are going to be on the ground. A nice GM might allow you to be able to find the one out of possible hundreds of material components, but even then picking them up off the ground would provoke, and require a move action.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

You are SUPPOSED to just hand wave the components. The game is dungeons and dragons, not ledgers and logistics.

And here I thought, the game was Pathfinder :p

On a serious note, keeping track of material components could either be fun or frustrating for the players, depending on how harsh you make it on them. Generally speaking, it is not good GMing if the GM is too strict regarding unimportant matters (and I mean unimportant by RAW). On the other hand, if the players feel that hunting an exotic bird for a feather (windwall) is a fun adventure, then go for it. Though in certain environments (e.g. desert or subterranean settings) this could rob the party's fun -especially the wizard's.


I handwave most components, so long as they're relatively common in a setting that has mages (while not exactly having Magic Marts). There are few exceptions to this, but one VERY prominent one comes to mind.

If you want to polymorph, you have to have a piece of that creature on-hand. That's the component, and CLEARLY any creature that wasn't -extremely- common would sell for more than a gp, so sorcerers have to do that one too. I handwave local animals, common humanoids, and things of that nature -- I don't want the spell to be useless after all! But if you think you're turning into an Umber Hulk, well, you best have part of one on you or you're turning into absolutely nothing.

To modify a quote from The Legend of Huma, an old 2E-era Dragonlance Book... "There will never again be another 3.5 polymorph."

Edit: In the case of elementals, any sufficiently appropriate element qualifies. Candle for fire, air is always available, and so on.

Silver Crusade

Well i think spell components are a matter of taste. I happen to like them...and when i am playing a spell casting character I use them.

I don't force my players to use them, beyond a spell component pouch....

so i think it all boils down to what you like using. In a King maker game I'm running, we, the players and I decided to go ahead and use encumberance, weight, etc.

We keep track of supplies, and yes i think the subject of spell components came up, so the guy playing an alchemist keeps track of his alchemy supplies. Is this less fun?

Well i think my players are enjoying themselves. they have horses and pack horses who have names...this led us to a 2nd eddition chart in the DMG which has you randomly determine the "Traits" of horses: ie does it bite, step on your feet, kick other horses etc.....

Well some people like components others don't.....I happen to like them, because i think it adds some flavor to my arcane caster, he has words to say, (often mangled latin) gestures to make ( often tracing glyphs in the air) and he has to have certain substances present....sand, gum arabic, eye lash, bit of wool.a small pea, a spider to eat (yuck) etc, in order for his magical spell to work.

With all of this, i feel my character is a Wizard, a witch etc, not someone with "super powers".

I like dealing with a Miracle Max to buy components, or having my character going down some winding steps to a cramped shop with an old crone selling jars of eyes of newt......I find that enjoyable.

Some people don't fair enough.. but i would be saddened if the one line of text at the end of the spell descriptions describing the materiel components were removed.....I like needing a hand full of sand to cast a sleep spell.....Weather you need to keep track of how much sand you have or use for a spell.....well i think that is something you can figure out with your DM

Liberty's Edge

Honestly, unless the setting was extremely dark and gritty, I'd have a serious problem with a DM trying to make me keep track of each material component. Even if it was just "you get X uses per pouch, keep track of when they run out." It doesn't add ANYTHING fun to the game and requires significant amount of work.

Secondly, I can think of only one instance in a novel (Darksun) where materials were explicitly used, and the wizardess just used whatever she had on hand rather than the normal components.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I handwave the non-costy M components (except for referencing them for, you, know, FLAVA) unless some extreme situation (usually: captured and thrown into a cell by anybody who's smart enough) calls for their importance.

Scouring prison walls for spiders so that you can cast spider climb is fun.


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The other way you could handle this is to treat all material components as foci. That way the character would only have to acquire it once, and then keep from losing it. It makes material components matter a little more, but cuts down on bookkeeping.

If you want cost to matter, you could treat all non-expensive material components as foci.


Frankly, I'd go the other route and throw out costless material components (functionally, everybody gets Eschew Materials). I don't like the visuals of having to fling bat poop or swallow a spider for spellcasting.


Zhayne wrote:
Frankly, I'd go the other route and throw out costless material components (functionally, everybody gets Eschew Materials). I don't like the visuals of having to fling bat poop or swallow a spider for spellcasting.

I'm not a fan of handwaving that bit. I think there should still be the very viable tactic of sundering the wizard spell component pouch to keep him from casting spells. Whether its the PC wizard or the BBEG wizard. This is a tactic that gets overlooked far to often, and is a good way to mitigate casters other than grapple them or antimagic.

Sovereign Court

What's stopping a wizard from tying three material component pouches to his belt? Are you really going to sunder all three of them? Do you have that kind of time? Can't be much of a wizard then. All he did was spend 15gp.

I run a game with seven players. If they tried to start accounting material components I'd smack them, I want to get actual gaming done rather than watch competitive bookkeeping.


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Claxon wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Frankly, I'd go the other route and throw out costless material components (functionally, everybody gets Eschew Materials). I don't like the visuals of having to fling bat poop or swallow a spider for spellcasting.
I'm not a fan of handwaving that bit. I think there should still be the very viable tactic of sundering the wizard spell component pouch to keep him from casting spells. Whether its the PC wizard or the BBEG wizard. This is a tactic that gets overlooked far to often, and is a good way to mitigate casters other than grapple them or antimagic.

Maybe, but I just really hate the goofy spell components. Foci I'm okay with, but things like bat poop, or the cans-and-string telephone for some communication spell is just ... no. IMNSHO, that's just dumb.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

What's stopping a wizard from tying three material component pouches to his belt? Are you really going to sunder all three of them? Do you have that kind of time? Can't be much of a wizard then. All he did was spend 15gp.

I run a game with seven players. If they tried to start accounting material components I'd smack them, I want to get actual gaming done rather than watch competitive bookkeeping.

Nothing stops the wizard from having multiple spell component pouches, but they usually don't. And if they're all attached to one belt, you just sunder the belt. Now he has to spend a move action to pick it up and provoke an AoO. Sometimes you really don't want that wizard to cast a spell.

Zhayne wrote:
Maybe, but I just really hate the goofy spell components. Foci I'm okay with, but things like bat poop, or the cans-and-string telephone for some communication spell is just ... no. IMNSHO, that's just dumb.

To be fair, I nominally ignore what the spell components are. I would never make a wizard have to go find a specific component (less than 1gp value) but I don't like to completely ignore them either because they're still required for most spells. Like I said, it's still a valid tactic to sunder the spell pouch. Have to give the casters a hard time somehow.

Sovereign Court

Claxon: so don't attach them all to the same belt. If you're paranoid enough to have three spell component pouches you may as well go all the way. This sounds like a tactic that would work against fresh-from-the-academy novice wizards, but not against seasoned bad guys. Or any wizard from an inherently evil society with a lot of backstabbing.


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Fun things to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Tell the players what components the enemy caster is pulling out of her pouch during combat. How many players will know what's coming up when the wizard pulls out a bit of fur and a glass rod?

--Allow spell casters to improve certain spells if they use better versions of the components. After killing the red dragon, let them collect some dragon guano to maximize their fireballs, or something like that.

--Leave them behind as clues. What does it mean that there were a few hummingbird feathers left on the wizard's desk? Did he scry us? Cast some sort of protective spell?

Really lame thing to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Make players track usage.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Claxon: so don't attach them all to the same belt. If you're paranoid enough to have three spell component pouches you may as well go all the way. This sounds like a tactic that would work against fresh-from-the-academy novice wizards, but not against seasoned bad guys. Or any wizard from an inherently evil society with a lot of backstabbing.

You would be surprised by the group I play with. I know people who min max and optimize like it's going out of style. They have save DCs so high you almost never succeed. But if you ask to see their character sheet, you'll notice they forget to even right down their spell component pouch. Let alone three. Let me start sundering the pouches and I'll see them invest in multiples. If I don't force it into relevance, they wont even bother with the 10 seconds to write one down.

Sovereign Court

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Claxon wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Claxon: so don't attach them all to the same belt. If you're paranoid enough to have three spell component pouches you may as well go all the way. This sounds like a tactic that would work against fresh-from-the-academy novice wizards, but not against seasoned bad guys. Or any wizard from an inherently evil society with a lot of backstabbing.
You would be surprised by the group I play with. I know people who min max and optimize like it's going out of style. They have save DCs so high you almost never succeed. But if you ask to see their character sheet, you'll notice they forget to even right down their spell component pouch. Let alone three. Let me start sundering the pouches and I'll see them invest in multiples. If I don't force it into relevance, they wont even bother with the 10 seconds to write one down.

So it's a trick that works once, and then becomes irrelevant. Yay.

Sovereign Court

Trainwreck wrote:

Fun things to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Tell the players what components the enemy caster is pulling out of her pouch during combat. How many players will know what's coming up when the wizard pulls out a bit of fur and a glass rod?

--Allow spell casters to improve certain spells if they use better versions of the components. After killing the red dragon, let them collect some dragon guano to maximize their fireballs, or something like that.

--Leave them behind as clues. What does it mean that there were a few hummingbird feathers left on the wizard's desk? Did he scry us? Cast some sort of protective spell?

Really lame thing to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Make players track usage.

Very good points. I tend to be relaxed about the specific components - they're often highly setting-specific. But identifying a "crime scene" by the remains of spell components is a nice idea.

I hadn't thought of the improved components idea. That's an interesting possibility.


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Trainwreck wrote:

Fun things to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Tell the players what components the enemy caster is pulling out of her pouch during combat. How many players will know what's coming up when the wizard pulls out a bit of fur and a glass rod?

--Allow spell casters to improve certain spells if they use better versions of the components. After killing the red dragon, let them collect some dragon guano to maximize their fireballs, or something like that.

--Leave them behind as clues. What does it mean that there were a few hummingbird feathers left on the wizard's desk? Did he scry us? Cast some sort of protective spell?

Really lame thing to do in your campaign involving spell components:

--Make players track usage.

I really like the idea of rarer components yielding better results. It kind of ties into how we play polymorph spells, in that you can change into a specific individual by using a part of that specific individual as the spell component. My magus has a roll of leather with meticulously labelled vials of blood, hair, and nails he's collected over the course of the adventure for use with alter self (and curses, but that's a different story). It gives more fun options for espionage and creating a bit of chaos but also limits the spell's effectiveness since you need to harvest scales from a merfolk to be able to turn into a merfolk etc.

Sovereign Court

@Rashagar: that's a cool idea!


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Considering how well established the whole magic industry is, I see components as working this way...and yes, graph paper is my friend!

Some of us drawn to more detail, especially those of use that have been playing for decades, enjoy figuring out "mechanics" more than others. A lot that have been playing for a while actually strip things down just because they really like the whole social experience more than anything. But focusing on the former, this is a system I see as being realistic and reflective my world...well, multi-planar...vision.

As established as the magic industry is don't think that the whole component system hasn't been perfected with even the simple tech skills available-sewing, glassblowing, paper making, etc. into organized and easy to access bits of components for each spell that needs them. Notice that cantrips are almost devoid of material components? Throw a bunch of stuff into a bag and try to fumble through it in 6 seconds to find something...DOA. Get something akin to a slide organizer and a series of wax paper (water proof, kids!) envelopes about the size of a few stamps with a wooden tab, fabric loop, metal hook sticking out the top and you start to have a real system of access and organization. Color them differently and you are rocking the boat. Keep in mind it doesn't say anywhere the quantity you need for these to work...the live spider problem? Small glass vial with a VERY small spider in it, plumped up and with some nice web bedding in there to keep it from bouncing around...maybe throw in a gnat to keep it content. Spiders last for weeks between meals just contemplating the music of the spheres...did you know we guarantee our spiders to be alive for two weeks or 1000 times your money back? How much is that you say? Well the going rate is (1sp seem practical, if you are going cheap make it 1cp but that at an approx. 1gp=$50 conversion seems unrealistic) per spell level so that would be 2sp ($10...we can do that). SOLD!

It isn't like you are going to have a zillion of these crammed into your bag...if you are really going to be picky put a few days worth into your bag, up your sleeves, whatever and the rest in your pack, or your familiar satchel along with your hedgehog...just make sure it isn't hungry. That sheet you use to keep track of the scrolls you make and the spells you know? Add 1/4 of an inch to make note of how many little ready to use component packs you have....boom....how hard is that? And one of those hand waving moments that seem to tired get resolved with little burden to the player, the gp of the character, and it makes you seem even more either like the eye of newt fumbling mad scientist type or the well organized bookish style mage that has just the right bit of stuff up their sleeve. And if you REALLY want to have fun with this, try it out on your own and get some wax paper, origami it up a bit to seal up a little bit of wool in it, mark it with an embossed, or even better wax seal (easier to tell by touch in those dark dungeons) and bring it to your next gaming night...and daze your friends.

Next up...an more rational explanation of the costs of scrolls, the ingredients, and how hedge wizards in the middle of the wastes can still take scribe scroll and pull it off...hint: it is all about the ink and a little cantrip of sorts that everyone who takes scribe learns. Dire Wolf hide scrolls anyone? Of course!


I've decided that for my next campaign I'm going to use material foci in place of components for any spell that normally requires components. That way you still have the flavor of items required for spellcasting, and the option of guessing what spell an enemy sorcerer is using by seeing what they're holding, as well as the possibility of losing the item required for a spell, but there's not as much to keep track of. Consumable components for beefing up spells may be available as well, but those would be entirely optional for the players, and provide a bonus, so I don't think players would mind as much having to keep track of them.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The fact that so many spell components are meant to be punny or bad jokes turn me off from them.

I expect the wizard to have a component pouch and he can't cast certain spells if he loses it.

I don't expect him to throw tiny pies at enemies though.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The point of spell components is to be flavorful, not a mechanical hurdle.


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Holy crap, the thread necromancy.

I just remove cost-less material components from the game. So many of them are just ... stupid.


Ross Byers wrote:
The point of spell components is to be flavorful, not a mechanical hurdle.

Then why does Eschew Materials exist?


Malwing wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
The point of spell components is to be flavorful, not a mechanical hurdle.
Then why does Eschew Materials exist?

The specific spell component is flavor.

The idea of needing a material component is mechanical, but not a hurdle, until you get to the ones that cost more than one gp.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Malwing wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
The point of spell components is to be flavorful, not a mechanical hurdle.
Then why does Eschew Materials exist?

Mostly, as a thing to give to sorcerers as a bonus feat.


So, what the line is 1gp. If its less nobody tracks it. If it's more people do track it. How many spells have a specific price for their components that is 1gp or less?

I feel like I should give Sorcerers a bonus feat for being saddled with a feat that does nothing in the grand scheme of things.


I don't particularly like materials components myself but I don't want to simply remove them as they provide some limitation on casters. I was considering just replacing all Material and focus items for wizards with an arcane focus of their staff, rod, or wand. Comparable to the divine focus of divine casters.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Quote:
How many spells have a specific price for their components that is 1gp or less?

None. If it costs less than 1 gp, there is no cost listed and its assumed to be something incorporated into the cost of your component pouch and background shopping and rounding errors. Because remembering you have to spend three copper pieces to buy a palmful of bat guano, three newt eyes, two dried bat wings, and a live spider isn't a useful way to spend game time or a fun thing to track when actually casting spells.

Quote:
I feel like I should give Sorcerers a bonus feat for being saddled with a feat that does nothing in the grand scheme of things.

They aren't 'saddled' with it. It doesn't make them worse at anything. Having it is strictly better than not having it. It's not a good feat - on the vast majority of spells it provides a benefit equivalent to a 5 gp item. (It does have a niche application - a spell with a material component still requires a free hand, even if it normally lacks a somatic component or is Still.) But that doesn't mean getting it for free makes it a penalty.

Having to eat a spider to cast spider climb makes arcane magic seem strange and esoteric (in theory, YMMV.) Sorcerers get Eschew Materials because their magic is supposed to be intuitive, and come from within. If you are descended from an Efreeti, you shouldn't need bat guano to jumpstart your fireball - Fire is in your blood.


The reason negligible cost components exist is so when GMs use the "your party gets captured" story trope they can actually limit wizards.

Keep in mind this was developed in the days before sorcerers and eschew materials ever existed.

It used to be that if you took away a wizard's components and their spell book, or took away the cleric's holy symbol, that they wouldn't be able to cast most spells.

These days it's a lot harder to stop a caster, but components still exist as a legacy of those days.


The problem with not keeping track of material components is that you miss out on some interesting and hilarious role playing scenarios.

We had a player who was playing a wizard about 10 years back that used ghost sound and the help of some street rat kids to capture a cat so he could harvest its fur so he had components for Cat's Grace.

I agree that it can be a hassle to track though.

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