I don't track components but I'll occasionally mention them when my PC casts a spell---for flavor. One of my GMs handwaves them but will occasionally give us a bonus if our PCs take pains to obtain, track, and use them.
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The reason spell components exist is to lock up insane wizards and pay fealty to sorcerer kings.
It's the same with all those other minor things out there. You know, inconsequential bits of book keeping like carrying capacity, how many arrows you have or even Hit Points. It makes carrying that giant Emerald statue back to town easy.
Seriously, tracking components does not have to be hard, just consider the pouch to be a 'bank' with spell levels of components in it. Size, cost, etc become a minor nuisance, its true, but watching a Wiz sweat when his pouch is low is RP.
ANd if you want to add 'special components' to the mix, check out Hypertet20 for some work in that direction.
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Wait, who doesn't track arrows? Arrows are often varied and special ones are expensive, ignoring it is like gaining a ton of money.
ANd if you want to add 'special components' to the mix, check out Hypertet20 for some work in that direction.
Whats that? Link?
I'll admit, I prefer the magical implement route to the material compnent route. A wizard casting a spell through a staff or want is much more evocative to me than a wizard who reaches into a bag to pull out some bat poop that didn't contaminate the flower petals and spider silk despite all of them sitting in the bag all jumbled up together.
Wait, who doesn't track arrows? Arrows are often varied and special ones are expensive, ignoring it is like gaining a ton of money.
Track special or magical arrows? Yes. Track mundane arrows? Oh, hell no. I run it like a a component pouch; buy a quiver, you got your arrows. I'm not sure how telling the archer he can no longer meaningfully contribute to the session helps the game, especially while the casters can pull out literally infinite amounts of bat s@&% and devil blood to fuel their spells.
So yeah, handwaved. Casters auto loot/pick up as they see on the ground/purchase when in town their cheap components and archers do the same for their arrows.
I track arrows when I play, but once I get to a certain wealth level I try to get the GM to handwave it or I buy one of those efficient quivers, and I also keep arrows in a handy haversack or back of holding if I do have to keep track.
I enjoy tracking material components but I've never required it or have had it required of me. I also track how often my character bathes (although I don't track other bathroom business.).
My group does track arrows, rations, mundane equipment, etc...
We even track the weight of coins (which really makes you appreciate gems!).
I'm curious, those who don't track arrows, do you do that with other ammo, weapons?
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for the arrows, I allow my players to ignore them if they have 5+ in craft(arrow), which means 2 ranks and the +3 class skill (or 1 rank if they didn't dump Int)
if the wizard takes 1h/day to learn spell, the archer can take 1hour to craft arrows.
now if any of the 2 is lost in the middle of a desert or put in jail, then indeed, count your component / arrows .
I'm curious, those who don't track arrows, do you do that with other ammo, weapons?
I go anything that uses inexpensive ammo just has it as long as you made a token gesture to have it, as per the rules for the component pouch. I include bullets for firearms in this too given how cheap they are to actually create using gunsmithing.
For thrown weapons I'm more picky as they are reusable and function as melee weapons too mostly, but I wouldn't track disposable thrown weapons like shurikens; saying "I have a bandolier of shurikens/throwing knives on my chest" is enough.
Alchemical thrown items get tracked though due to their relative expense and oddity.
It has never come up yet for me, but under extreme conditions like the previously mentioned prison/lost in a desert/fighting an endless horde of enemies for hours/etc situation eventually I'd go, "ok you only have x left" for both components and the other things mentioned.
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I always reflavor darts as throwing knives. Little tiny javelins just seem silly to me.
I'm curious, those who don't track arrows, do you do that with other ammo, weapons?
Weapons? Sure. Other ammo? If the ammo is special I'll track it. Arrows or bullets made of special materials or with unique enhancements or properties, yeah. Stuff like Starknives probably get a similar treatment.
By mid levels the cost of mundane ammunition is trivial enough that a player can buy an arbitrarily large number of them without any difficulty and at early levels I feel like the cost can be needlessly prohibitive (i.e. a gunslinger that isn't using high-op tricks probably doesn't need to paying 20-30 gold every combat).
If I'm playing the sort of campaign where resource management is meant to be important (survival or horror or trapped in the wilderness) I'll probably track stuff like that though.
I always reflavor darts as throwing knives. Little tiny javelins just seem silly to me.
I agree. Throwing knives make me happy, darts do not.
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I like components but hate tracking them, so unless the character's component pouch is taken away I don't bother. If it is taken away, I allow characters to substitute alternate "sympathetic components" in place of the specific listed ones so long as they have equivalent or higher value. I also encourage creative component usage--an expensive but thematically appropriate component might act as a power component, adding +1 to the spell's DC or otherwise slightly boosting it. So a captive wizard might scavenge a bit of brimstone in place of bat guano for a fireball, or a wizard might keep a red dragon's gallbladder in a jar or a fragment of meteorite taken from a still-hot impact site for that pivotal occasion when he needs a bit of extra kick.
I always reflavor darts as throwing knives. Little tiny javelins just seem silly to me.I agree. Throwing knives make me happy, darts do not.
Darts weigh half a pound each. For comparison, a typical pub dart is about a tenth if a pound, maybe a bit more. Darts are freaking dangerous and as worthy of respect as any throwing knife.
What annoys me is that in Pathfinder, they're apparently so flimsy that they break irreversibly on a hit.
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Darts aren't ammo.
Darts aren't ammo.
Oh hey, you're right. Excellent.
Whats that? Link?
ANd if you want to add 'special components' to the mix, check out Hypertet20 for some work in that direction.
Sorry, martial character here, the Magic of the Internet School in beyond my expertise. Try a search of 'HypertextD20'. It's really for 3.0 or 3.5, but there is too much gooey goodness to ignore. Middle column, at the bottom, is a suite of variant rules for review. I use a version of the Spell Points, the Metamagic Components and a few other things.
Amusing. Nobody raised an objection to my cheap shot at Hit Points...
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I think the only reason to care about M components are to make the spells that don't have them that much more useful.
If I may throw in a little experience, I once played a game as a wizard in a world where magic was scarce and limited. What we did was make a little "mana/magicka" system, where I had X amount of spells i could cast before I had to recharge (usually by eating a magic item such as a wand, which "restored my mana" somehow.)
A similar method could be used to have that "scarce resources" of survival without the intense calculations of knowing exactly what materials the players have spent. At some point during a long treck, tell your wizard that his materials pouch is seeming pretty light, and tell him he can probably only cast ten more spells before it's completely dry, and he better start scrounging for resources. Maybe higher level spells require more "charges," so you can't cast some impressive spell with just twigs and feathers.
I don't but I have a friend that does. His gaming group is very much the Skyrim crowd in a GOOD way: they get a lot of pleasure from scrounging materials and making use of every scrap they can find. And that's cool! But aside from him, most of the people in the group I play with have a hard enough time remembering what their spells DO, let alone the material components needed to cast them.
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Wizard is arguably the most powerful class in the game.
Ought he have an achilles heel?
Are you suggesting the achille's heel be that anyone running a wizard needs to have a second excel spread sheet just to keep track of materials that are so cheap that you are literally assumed to have an infinite amount of them if you pay a one time fee of 5 gold? That's not making the wizard weaker so much as making it more annoying to play and it also goes completely out the window once the wizard just starts packing a 1000 doses of each so-cheap-how-do-they-make-money-selling-this-stuff material into a bag of holding. Or I suppose the Wizard could just take Eschew Materials and ignore it.
Either way tracking individual non-costly components is just a minor inconvenience fixed with a feat tax or a relatively small gold investment or book keeping headache for one of the most book keeping based classes in the game.
So to answer the question you proposed, yeah, the wizard could perhaps use another achille's heel beyond the innate one of having a skill floor below sea level, but the topic in question is not a viable solution.
EDIT: I didn't mean that to come out sounding as mean and/or combative as it did, but I feel the point still stands.
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I didn't mean a spreadsheet. I meant a Spell Component Pouch.
And I am really asking, not suggesting. General discussion, no? And yes your point still stands.
I guess I am weighing the value of the strategy of targeting the pouch/bag/haversack. Should this be viable within the game? Is it an unnecessary 'tax' or does it enhance the game? Could we make a similar argument (either way) about disarming as a strategy against a weapon-using martial?
I didn't mean a spreadsheet. I meant a Spell Component Pouch.
And I am really asking, not suggesting. General discussion, no? And yes your point still stands.
I guess I am weighing the value of the strategy of targeting the pouch/bag/haversack. Should this be viable within the game? Is it an unnecessary 'tax' or does it enhance the game? Could we make a similar argument (either way) about disarming as a strategy against a weapon-using martial?
My bad, I misunderstood you and thought you implying a more meticulous accounting of spell components would be an appropriate balancing factor for full casters.
As far as sundering component pouches and such, I'm iffy about how much readily using said tactics really adds to the game as it's so easy to counter, at least if it is played as a common tactics. If you disarm or sunder a martial character, you are depriving them of an incredible expensive piece of equipment, one that they cannot reasonable afford to have multiples of with equivalent power.
If you are targeting spell pouches/holy symbols, it is nowhere near as devastating as both are dirt cheap or can just be replaced by a single feat. A caster can be walking around with 10 component pouches strapped to him for the price of 50 gold if he is really concerned about enemies targeting them, and each pouch is as strong as any other, which pretty much negates any benefit gained from targeting them in the first place. Martials on the other hand who lose their primary weapon often are taking a large offensive hit.
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A caster can be walking around with 10 component pouches strapped to him for the price of 50 gold if he is really concerned about enemies targeting them...
And a Fighter can walk around with a golf-bag of weapons. I suppose they would both look pretty silly. But more to the point: does it enhance the game to saddle the mighty Wizard with such a weakness? Because despite the negligible gold cost (5gp), the action cost of being temporarily deprived of the ability to use spells that have a M component is quite steep!
Is it worthwhile to think out a counter to the "10 pouches" trick? For example by limiting how many pouches can physically be carried and utilized effectively before the sheer bulk begins to interfere with Somatic components? Or is this line of thinking simply in the "jerk DM moves" book?
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A Fighter with a golf bag of weapons is greatly diminished if he loses his primary weapon. Going from your +5 Blade of Awesome to your +2 Blade of Meh is a large hit in efficiency. On the other hand one component pouch is as good as another, so there is no less in efficiency should a back up pouch be needed. They also weigh 1/2 a pound; without even getting close to looking silly territory you could be walking around with a few on your person with easy access, which itself would mean that unless all were destroyed you are not even forcing the caster to spend an action to pull out another one.
In regards to trying to counter the use of multiple spell component pouches, I really have to wonder why you would bother. They are so light that any restriction on the number you could wear would already be so high as to make targeting them a nonviable option. And even then, if all else failed and the tactic of pouch hunting became so mainstream, they could just accept it as a feat tax and Eschew Materials/False Focus with holy symbol tattoos and just hard counter it. You simply cannot win the arms race. The whole scenario is a zero sum game.
EDIT: Actually now that I consider it more fully, it is not a zero sum game; the caster wins. If component sundering is such a relevant tactic that the caster needs to invest in a hard counter, then that means they can essentially force enemies to waste their actions.
Enemy 1 runs up on PC caster and sunders the spell pouch!
"Nice try," says the PC, reaching into his other pouch and casting like nothing happened.
"Damn," says Enemy 1, "got to get that one too." So he does. And then PC reaches into his next pouch with his smirk growing larger.
Enemy 1 goes into a furious fit of sundering and destroys all of the spell component pouches in easy reach of PC!
"Now what," sneers Enemy 1.
PC responds by 5ft stepping back, turning his finger sideways, and says, "Eschew Materials."
And then Enemy 1's eyes grow wide with disbelief as he is Disintegrated. The last thing that goes through his head is the thought, "If only I hadn't tried to be clever and sunder those pouches and had just tried to kill him the old fashioned way..."
And the fun part about that scenario is that if you as a DM made sundering pouches common enough that most enemies utilize it regularly, then in good faith you HAVE to fall into that trap to some degree. Otherwise you are metagaming, giving your NPCs knowledge of party strengths and weaknesses they could not have on their own.
Here is a funny tactic. If 'sunder the spell component pouch!' is a common thing, then get Eschew Materials/False Focus then buy some nice big/obvious spell pouches and quietly snicker when foes waste attacks sundering your 'important' pouches. 5gp to get someone to waste 1+ attacks sounds cheap to me! Just make sure to reach in and toss some 'components' when you cast spells to keep up the charade.
Here is a funny tactic. If 'sunder the spell component pouch!' is a common thing, then get Eschew Materials/False Focus then buy some nice big/obvious spell pouches and quietly snicker when foes waste attacks sundering your 'important' pouches. 5gp to get someone to waste 1+ attacks sounds cheap to me! Just make sure to reach in and toss some 'components' when you cast spells to keep up the charade.
I actually planned to do this with a sorcerer I was playing once. I even got a spellbook for him. :)
Here is a funny tactic. If 'sunder the spell component pouch!' is a common thing, then get Eschew Materials/False Focus then buy some nice big/obvious spell pouches and quietly snicker when foes waste attacks sundering your 'important' pouches. 5gp to get someone to waste 1+ attacks sounds cheap to me! Just make sure to reach in and toss some 'components' when you cast spells to keep up the charade.
My thoughts exactly.
Here is a funny tactic. If 'sunder the spell component pouch!' is a common thing, then get Eschew Materials/False Focus then buy some nice big/obvious spell pouches and quietly snicker when foes waste attacks sundering your 'important' pouches. 5gp to get someone to waste 1+ attacks sounds cheap to me! Just make sure to reach in and toss some 'components' when you cast spells to keep up the charade.My thoughts exactly.
"what's in your backpack? It looks full." "Spare spell pouches!"
It's a game, so focus on the fun parts. If you have the most fun while tracking iron fillings, bat guano, live spiders, etc. then do that. If you're a GM and you feel that, if you were a player, you'd have the most fun tracking this stuff, then do it.
Right. And why stop there?
In my games quivers and adventuring kits act like spell component bags. Focus on the fun parts, not the tracking of standard ammo.
Here is a funny tactic. If 'sunder the spell component pouch!' is a common thing, then get Eschew Materials/False Focus then buy some nice big/obvious spell pouches and quietly snicker when foes waste attacks sundering your 'important' pouches. 5gp to get someone to waste 1+ attacks sounds cheap to me! Just make sure to reach in and toss some 'components' when you cast spells to keep up the charade.I actually planned to do this with a sorcerer I was playing once. I even got a spellbook for him. :)
You could add the improvised defense trait and have him hold the book in one hand. You get a +1 shield bonus to AC and it is even more likely for the opponent to try and sunder it. Make sure the book is durable (has a darkwood in stead of pages.)
So that's three votes for "doesn't enhance the game"...
Anybody think it does?
Not me...
So that's three votes for "doesn't enhance the game"...
Anybody think it does?
I said (almost a year ago) that I, personally, like them but I don't require them when I GM. Also, I don't play spell casters too often so it's not something I deal with often.
Does anyone know of a link with mundane spell components (link different herbs, or basic gems). I think it would be interesting for if a PC wanted to play a spell inventor type character to need to figure out a reason for the different mundane components. I think it would also make it more engaging for that character.
I can't believe this is even a discussion 0_0
If we're going this far, we may as well have our Wizards write Latin phrases on 3x5 cards, and learn how to Tut (finger/hand dancing) for Verbal and Somatic components.
To me, it's utterly ridiculous. Yes, it's fun to read the Material components for spells, and roleplay each one a little differently. But I draw the line at slowing down the game, just so I can hunt for specific items. Especially when RAW doesn't support it.
If you really need an in-world explanation, just rip off the Ender Chest from Minecraft, in pouch form. Say that there's an "Umbrella Corporation" who's constantly filling the Wizards "Ender Pouch" with *basic spell components.
*Basic, because there's obviously spells that have specific material components, like gemstones worth thousands of gold, which aren't expected to be contained in basic spell component pouches.
Or, treat it the same as an Alchemist's crafting materials, with a gold cost- "I scour the surrounding woods for materials", have him/her make a Knowledge:Arcana/Nature Check, and "You find Xgp worth of spellcasting components", with the cost of the spell being it's level x 10 (hence why Cantrips can be cast willy-nilly).
I was shocked to learn that Wizards don't actually receive a spell components pouch, alongside their spellbooks. You'd think in a world where magic is as prevalent as this, that spell component pouches would be commonplace enough that Wizards begin play with one.
I handwave the non-costy M components (except for referencing them for, you, know, FLAVA) unless some extreme situation (usually: captured and thrown into a cell by anybody who's smart enough) calls for their importance.
Scouring prison walls for spiders so that you can cast spider climb is fun.
This is how we do it.
It's kind of like encumberance. We don't track it unless it becomes obvious, central or fun, for whatever reason.