HITLER BEAR!! Where is that epic monster thread?
Why did I just get a mental image of Tim the Bear (from the Cleveland Show) dressed up in an SS uniform?
I deffer to the oppinion of ThatEvilGuy .. I mean common he's ThatEvilGuy, he should know!
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I deffer to the oppinion of ThatEvilGuy .. I mean common he's ThatEvilGuy, he should know!
Of course. As the Ultimate Authority on Evil(TM), I DO know.
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And while we are on the subject of soul selling.
If an Angel buys a soul through an agreement, is that considered a good act?
Many will say ANGELS DON'T DO THAT, but what if they did.
Selling your soul is not an evil act on its own.
It's whom/what you are selling your soul to and why.
Depending on the circumstances that you put forth, it could be a "good act", such as if the angel was purchasing the soul to save it from eternal damnation. Though things get murkier depending on what the angel "paid" for the soul with and, should it have been trafficking with creatures of evil, how likely is the payment going to create more evil in the world counterbalanced by the good of saving the soul/preventing the soul from being used to advance Evil(TM). Definitely a grey area that asks more questions than it answers, and would be an interesting thing to explore during a game with the right players/GM.
Does not a Paladin or cleric effectively "sell their soul" to their deity? They are guaranteed a place in the deities domain for doing their good work on the prime material.
Selling your soul is not evil, but I would still view selling your soul to a devil as an evil act.
Also, this is a highly magical world. Would not that devil have some sort of magical contract or geas/quest or complusion (maybe mark of justice) to enforce the deal? That might make the character radiate evil magic under a detect evil...
I deffer to the oppinion of ThatEvilGuy .. I mean common he's ThatEvilGuy, he should know!Of course. As the Ultimate Authority on Evil(TM), I DO know.
Well then. That settles that. *dusts off hands* What else ya got?
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This is also why in a completely black & white D&D game Paladins cannot exist, because killing (if circumstances and motivations are not arbitrating factors) is an evil act. So the moment a Paladin uses his sword to cut down a foe, then they fall.
Considering that fighting the evil guys is a good act and that there are certain paladin oaths that force you to kill (sure under circumstances but still), i have to say that this is wrong.
And while we are on the subject of soul selling.
If an Angel buys a soul through an agreement, is that considered a good act?
Many will say ANGELS DON'T DO THAT, but what if they did.
Yes, a good act.
In fact, 3.5 aligned Good Warlocks can make pacts that way. Complete Mage discusses it and has a Prc for it.
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There's actually RAW on this one...
'... Entering into an infernal contract is an unforgivably evil act, which might alter a character's alignment, blocks divine spellcasters from receiving spells from good-aligned deities, and prevents resurrection. Be sure characters understand the ramifications of entering into an infernal contract before signing such agreements...'
Of course an infernal contract doesn't technically have to involve selling your soul to a devil, but selling your soul to a devil is (in Pathfinder terms) an infernal contract (the ultimate form of such a contract, really). On the other hand, you get three wishes out of it, so... ;)
There's actually RAW on this one...
'... Entering into an infernal contract is an unforgivably evil act, which might alter a character's alignment, blocks divine spellcasters from receiving spells from good-aligned deities, and prevents resurrection. Be sure characters understand the ramifications of entering into an infernal contract before signing such agreements...'Of course an infernal contract doesn't technically have to involve selling your soul to a devil, but selling your soul to a devil is (in Pathfinder terms) an infernal contract (the ultimate form of such a contract, really). On the other hand, you get three wishes out of it, so... ;)
To bad he was silly and just wanted measly ol' gold. That devil would be one happy little blighter. Now, all he has to do is get that "CN" d00d to "LE" and he gets more Gold Pentagrams, 6 more to go and he can achieve the Barbazu evolution!
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I vote evil upon acting out the betrayal. Frankly IMHO the DM is slack on letting it go this far.
Definitely using CN as a paladin shield!
Also, depending on your source, there is a special place in Hell for those who betray
At the risk of getting hit with a thrown stones worth of Catholic guilt I'll say that selling your soul is not in and of itself an evil act, it is merely a very stupid one no matter what the problem you think it will solve. (And while we're on the subject, sit on it and rotate Joe Quesada)
Secondly, my understanding of the situation is that a admitted rapist successfully sold his soul in order to welsh on a monetary debt.
Really? Under the circumstances, unless said debt was the equivalent of a corroded, snapped off quarter of a copper piece that had been swallowed and expelled by a pig suffering from cholera, any devil he summoned should have laughed their tail off at the offer.
If you're selling your soul to a devil, you are strengthening Hell's position in the multiverse, even if it's by an infinitesimal amount. Assisting evil is an evil act.
But, you say, what if I'm offering my soul to save someone else's life? My intentions are pure!
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...
If a devil is willing to take such an offer, then chances are your good act is inconsequential in light of the reward for the devil. For all you know, that person may mysteriously contract devil chills and die the next day, or suffer a tragic accident.
Just don't sign your name to anything. You're better off that way.
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Is selling your soul to a devil an evil act?
Yes. He is now going to Hell when he dies, that more than anything else should give this away :P
Does anything else matter, circumstances, other aspects of the deal?
No.
The character committed an evil act, and it sounds like he committed numerous evil acts coming to this point. He should become evil, his own intentions be damned. He should probably become chaotic evil since all of his actions are largely chaotic even if making a deal with a devil is technically LE.
F!+# if some serial rapist is going to betray his comrades and make pacts with Hell and sit pretty pretending he's neutral on the scales of Good and Evil. Boy hasn't toed the line, he's made a running leap, arched his back over the bar, and made a ten point landing squarely in Asmodeus's sitting room. Unless he saved no fewer than 36,432 puppies in the past year and found good homes for all of them he's not playing a neutral game, I don't care who your GM is.
He gave himself to evil, I do not think you can explain that away as a good action in any way. It is like a paladin donning a helm of opposite alignment to save the world.. though in this case it is not a paladin and his motives were considerably less pure.
I don't see a CN character here to start with, a character who plays as an immoral SoB is not neutral.
He gave himself to evil, I do not think you can explain that away as a good action in any way.That's alright, we have a third option besides good and evil to argue for.
Ofcourse people would argue that selling your soul to the devil is a neutral act.. seriously ?
I am not arguing that a person should turn instantly diabolically evil as a result of doing that, but this definately should be an evil act.
If selling your soul to the demon will help him is an evil act.
And is also stupid and desperate :)
Creating this thread was an !
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it depends on the characters INTENT!
If he made this deal/sold his soul for the greater good/as a plan with his parties knowledge to help them then its not an evil act but a neutral one. If he did it only to get rid of his personal gold debt then it is very evil.
I know thatmovie are not always a good PF example but:
* Ghost Rider with Nicolas Cage
he sold his soul for good reason (save his father's life), in the process, he gained power. as the pact was non-evil, he was able to turn against the demon.
* Constantine with Keanu Reeves
he commited suicide to offer his soul to Lucifer, and to propose a bargain : free another soul from hell.
this was a so NON-EVIL act that Lucifer was refused the right to take him to hell.
so the selling, imho, is not evil. the reasons (and act that followed) might change this.
EDIT-
How do you sell them something they already own?
CN my ass.
Hell didn't own his soul before. They just had dibs on it if he kicked off then and there before having a chance to repent and maybe work on his salvation.
Buying a soul of someone already evil is kind of like locking them into a long-term cell phone contract. The wishes are basically the free phone.
He gave himself to evil, I do not think you can explain that away as a good action in any way.That's alright, we have a third option besides good and evil to argue for.Ofcourse people would argue that selling your soul to the devil is a neutral act.. seriously ?
I am not arguing that a person should turn instantly diabolically evil as a result of doing that, but this definately should be an evil act.
I don't think that this is the case, i think that people argue that selling your soul isn't enough to warrant an alignment change to evil (as an act by itself).
For example in a game i play one of the other players his CG haffling wagered his soul on a game of dice (and lost) with a devil (didn't know it was a devil at that time) for two reasons:1) He thought that the guy was joking.
2) He tought he could beat the guy.
But before then and after it he has done anything but good acts, so i don't see a problem with character still being CG.
Doing a single evil act doesn't make you evil. It's a GM decision when a character becomes evil. If you commit more evil act then it's why you are evil (or forced by something).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I am of the opinion that yes, selling your soul to a devil is an evil act. Why? Because, by selling the devil your soul, you are empowering a creature that is evil incarnate. Your soul is currency to that devil, and currency = wealth = power. Ergo, you have made this devil (however marginally) more powerful and have served the cause of Evil.
Now, if you were tricked into the transaction or otherwise manipulated, then it is not evil, but if you willingly and knowingly sell your soul to an evil being, the act, IMO, is evil.
To be fair, the fact that it's your soul is irrelevant. If you purchased information or a boon or whatever from a devil with any kind of valuable/currency, whether it was gems, gold coins, artifacts, etc. the act would still be evil because you are still empowering an evil entity with wealth.
Doing a single evil act doesn't make you evil. It's a GM decision when a character becomes evil. If you commit more evil act then it's why you are evil (or forced by something).
How many evil acts does it take to get to the center of this tootsie roll pop? And why can't a single bite get you there?
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Note that, for good or ill, this thread is in the Rules Questions forum. I quoted the RAW on this above - yes, RAW, selling your soul to a devil is an evil act. Now, if people have (gasp!) opinions on the morality (or lack of the same) of the act then that's probably fodder for a thread in a different category... ;)
Doing a single evil act doesn't make you evil. It's a GM decision when a character becomes evil. If you commit more evil act then it's why you are evil (or forced by something).How many evil acts does it take to get to the center of this tootsie roll pop? And why can't a single bite get you there?
GM decides. A single evil act don't make you evil if you later don't act as an evil character.
Think about it. You do an evil act, gm decides you are evil, but you don't do nothing evil further. An evil that act as a good?Better if GM (and the player) can understand play and togheter decide when the PC is evil, because he act as an evil one.
it depends on the characters INTENT!
And again: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
If you can sell your soul to devils (meaning you'll go to hell when you die/hell gets to do what it wants with it and send it where they want), could you not also sell your soul to angels/other outsiders to possibly help guarantee your soul ends up in heaven/part of a battle for the forces of good? What do good/non-evil creatures do with souls, and what do they do when chance gives them possession of a soul(s)?
delicacy in the other worlds goes great with ketchup
Deal with he devil? Evil act, but not enough by itself to change an alignment. If you are still able to have free will you can repent and defeat the devil (see Ghost Rider and Costantine comment up above). Not an evil act if you lose your soul (My character touched a sword now he has to help a devil or lose his soul, my DM is such a nice guy...)
Betraying the party is an evil act if he knew that would happen when making the deal. If it was a susprise possesion by the devil it's not his act at all.
Raping is EVIL, all capital letters. That character is Evil already, dealing with devils wouldn't change his alignment.
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What a wonderful thread! So many thoughts!
A) I agree that it isn't an act that carries the (evil) descriptor. It's a neutral act, mostly. There's a logical line of reasoning that makes it an evil one, but if you follow things that stringently then you're going to make the alignment system break.
B) How many evil acts does it take to turn you? Well, to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, "It can be hard to define, but I know it when I see it." Community (or in this case, game-table) standards apply here.
C) Ditto the advice on the professional help for that GM. Further, find another table, IMO. Either you have a bad case of not understanding alignment, heavy favoritism, or anti-social play. None of which ever turn out to be worth the effort in the long run, assuming (as seems to be the case) that your concerns aren't being addressed. I'd scold that GM for handling an NPC this way, let alone allowing a PC to conduct these acts as a function of my narrative. What are you guys playing, 'Rapists & Ruin'? In short, you're supposed to be having a good time, and if you have a 'friend' who considers this behavior to be that, I'd put some distance between you...
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Technically, summoning a fiendish poodle into existance is an evil act since the spell has the evil descriptor, even if you use said poodle to save someone from a fire.
Likewise, summoning in an imp for information and paying him by letting him spend a week relaxing around your palace, doing nothing more evil than singing "Rubber ducky" is also technically an evil act.
I don't think its much of a leap to say that whatever spell or mechanism you use to give your soul to empower a demonic entity would likewise be evil.
The legitimacy of an argument of selling your soul being a possibly non-evil act depends on whether an act itself is evil, or the intention. Were it based solely on the act itself, then it is indisputably evil. He is empowering the forces of evil, and dooming someone to eternal slavery (in this case, himself, but still). Furthermore, killing evil creatures is not equivalent, because they were already pledged to evil. The PC was neutral. If intention is considered, then selling your soul in an act of sacrifice (say, the example of John Constantine giving himself up so save another soul from damnation), could be construed as good, however the reasons for the PC making this choice are so trivial that there could be no way for the act to be good.
I think the biggest concern is to make sure you get a good price.
On a side note, you can toss me into the group that considers selling your soul to be foolish but not innately evil. Hell, ever see the movie Constantine?
Honestly I'd definitely say that it's dependent on how and why. If some dude sold his soul to remove the debt of a loved one, that might even be a good act (noble sacrifice, altruistic, paying the highest price, etc). The act of the exchange should be neutral.
However, such as Faustian pact shouldn't be taken into lightly. That's were the foolishness comes up. Going to Hell isn't exactly anyone's idea of a vacation. Selling someone's soul to clear their mortal debts would be really stupid, since you're passing on a temporary debt for a debt of a more eternal sort. Hell, even if your debt collectors broke both your knees and disintegrate you, that's probably better than Hell.
However, I could entirely see a Paladin who if he couldn't defeat a demon did something noble such as bargaining his shining soul for the lives the devils hold. I'm pretty sure such a selfless sacrifice would neither be an evil act, but would also make for an epic adventure when the paladin's friends mounted a rescue mission to save a Paladin from the clutches of the Hellish legions!