How to build fights lasting more than a round.


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Scarab Sages

I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.

Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?


Damage reduction should take a good chunk out of the DPR of an archer , since it applies to each arrow.

Mirror image should add a little survivability to casters.

Fog

Invisibility

characters moving past the meat shields to attack the archer. (with step up)


lots of cover

Liberty's Edge

i tend to have the same problem with my current group. Archers are just so powerful these days. I used to limit him by giving concealment to the foes but i did something very stupid and gave an item that negated concealment for his bow *smacks head*

I try and add lots of cannon fodder now, DR and extra HP


How does 3d8+6 kill a CR+3
at best that is 30 points. longbow+1 for magic weapon+1 for strength 3 arrows, what level ARE you?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

DR X/piercing.

Snatch Arrows.

Blink, Displacement, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Invisiblity, Mirror Image, Blur, Project Image.

Stealth

Aquatic environments

A fiery aura that burns arrows

Multiple targets spread out in a wide array. Too big for Area of Effect attacks, so the archer will have to target each individually.

Extra meat shields with TONS of hit points.

Ioun-like stones, trained suicidal bats, captured spirits, etc., that orbit the target and deflect ranged attacks.

Telekinetic aura that steal and redirect ranged attacks.

Nilbogs that heal and get temporary hitpoints from arrow wounds.

Buffed dragon with mage armor, shield, and shield of faith.

Burrowing opponents.

Lots of 10 by 10 rooms with bendy 5 foot wide hallways connecting them.

Sunder

Shatter

Disintegrate

Disarm


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SmiloDan wrote:

DR X/piercing.

...

I don't see how that's going to help slow the archer. ;P

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

DR X/piercing.

...

I don't see how that's going to help slow the archer. ;P

*ahem*: the answer is right there.

-- What's his will save?

Bet it's crap.


Why do i think this game takes place higher than level 10?
Oh a lv. 15 archer is killing things too fast. IT'S A GOD LIKE ARCHER THEY KILL THINGS FAST! FROM RANGE! This will be followed by
MJ played basketball too well
Babe Ruth hit too hard
Michael Phelps swims too fast
Mike Tyson hit too hard
I really don't understand people very well.


Matthew Trent wrote:

I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.

Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?

I would use more than one monster. He can't kill all of them, and posting his build might help. I would also ask is he a lucky roller. If he is relying on crits to do his thing then you just have to wait until his luck runs out.

How is he putting down 300hp of damage at level 14?


Wind wall?

btw, if his bow is causing problems, you can always sunder it or steal it.
just give him an other interesting reward to make sure he doesn't complain all to much.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mike Schneider wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

DR X/piercing.

...

I don't see how that's going to help slow the archer. ;P

*ahem*: the answer is right there.

-- What's his will save?

Bet it's crap.

DOH!!!!

Um, I meant DR X/bludgeoning or slashing....

Yeah. That's it. That's the ticket!

Grapple him? Just teleport in and threaten him with AoOs? Swarms?


SmiloDan wrote:

DR X/piercing. (Corrected to bludgeoning or slashing)

The Clustered Shots Feat from UC gets around that one too(sorry).


I feel your pain. Cover doesn't even help any longer with Improved Precise Shot. With Deadly Aim, Many Shot, and Rapid Shot it's like having Two-weapon fighting with full power attack with one less attack roll.

Most of the stuff you send at them is simply going to die if the party sets up right to make sure the archer isn't open to easy attack.

Some counters:

1. Fickle Winds: You won't be able to do much every encounter, but you can do something here and there with fickle winds. It's a lvl 5 spell for a cleric, wizard, and inquisitor. It is a mobile cylinder wind wall that pretty much makes an archer useless.

2. Illusion spells like displacement, mirror image, and invisibility can help. But if he has seeking on his bow or is a ranger, he can defeat many of these.

3. If he is using an efficient quiver you can dispel it or destroy it cutting him off from his arrow supply or do the same to his bow.

4. Grapple him. Though you have to get close.

5. Summon creatures on top of him.

6. Cut him off with a wall or cloud spell.

7. Illusion spells that create false enemies for him to attack.

If you're looking for ways to slow him down without magic, no real way to do it other than super high AC. Archers are damage beasts and generally nothing can slow them down.


arioreo wrote:
Wind wall?

THIS! Negates all attacks with arrows and/or bolts. Hello mook minions with one spell prepared.

Dark Archive

Melee characters have trouble shining @ 14, pending them getting a good charge line and having pounce. Blasters are less-damaging archers, so anything you do against the archer will hurt them.

Archers at that level should average 150 or so damage; is he somehow doing more? There are plenty of monsters that can survive that volley.

Mages can do all sorts of nasty things to make him hate life; and yes, wind wall is a 1-shot answer.

Let's see this "god build", I'm guessing it is not so bad and the others are simply suboptimal for the level.


Throw a controller and a couple of tanks against him. When he fells one of the tanks on round one, your wizard/sorcerer should hit him with a ray of enfeeblement. If he makes his save, he still has to take half.
Keep hitting him with that; considering the level, you can probably have a few quickened.
If he's tearing apart encounters at your CR, maybe don't be afraid to take it up a notch. Always give them an out, though.
You also might throw an enemy shooter at him, give him a taste of his own medicine. Several months ago, a DM sent a halfling rogue against us a repeating crossbow and sniper goggles. He ambushed us from the top of a building and got sneak attack damage from his concealed position (with something like a +31 stealth). He and an invisible alchemist almost performed a TPW. If it's appropriate to your campaign, maybe try something like that.


Immunity to normal weapons.

Use multiple high-priority targets.

Combats with multiple waves (cheesy if done on the fly, awesome if done on purpose and foreshadowed in the first round).

Effective enemy battlefield healing (*not the most effective tactic for victory I'm sure some theorycrafters are saying, but it will extend the fight if done correctly. And what you're asking for is a long fight that the players still win, right?)

mirror image.

You will want to do the math on this archer and make certain that everything's above board. Modifiers like range and concealment can get glossed over (mostly because of table scale). At the end though, remember that archers are really among the most powerful characters in the hands of a smart player.

CR ≈ APL is appropriate for novices. It is okay to go much higher than CR ≈ APL+3 if your party is really professional, but it is better to use more enemies of APL ≈ CR than to use fewer enemies of much higher CR. Eventually, the action economy will reach the appropriate challenge.

BTW, if your going to ratchet up the challenge for pro players, consider leveling by GM fiat. Pro players can get a lot of XP very quickly. I find XP result in my players leveling so fast due to their own competence that they don't really get to enjoy more than a couple of scenes at each level.

Lantern Lodge

Matthew Trent wrote:


Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?

Everyone else has listed good options, but how about trying the simplest responses first?

If the majority of encounters are outside,roll for weather. Most people ignore the weather rules (for good reason IMHO), but the charts in the Core book can generate a lot of icky weather that dramatically effects missile combat. Set the adventure during a winter month for the greatest effect.

If the majority of encounters are inside, insure that the maps include enough turns & LOS blocking objects to keep the longest shots down to under 30', have the monsters make perception rolls to hear the PC's, and play the monsters intelligently (e.g. have the monsters charge the archer, use side passages to come up behind the party, hide, etc.)

If these don't work than I would try picking monsters with DR, use obscuration (e.g. smoke, terrain, invisibility), magic to tone the archer down (e.g. Protection form Missiles, Wind Wall) and/or any of the other options suggested by the others above.

Remember the object should be not to Nerf the archer, but to bring their damage dealing in-line with the rest of the party AND to provide a credible threat to the party as a whole.

Good Luck.

Shadow Lodge

HarbinNick wrote:

Why do i think this game takes place higher than level 10?

Oh a lv. 15 archer is killing things too fast. IT'S A GOD LIKE ARCHER THEY KILL THINGS FAST! FROM RANGE! This will be followed by
MJ played basketball too well
Babe Ruth hit too hard
Michael Phelps swims too fast
Mike Tyson hit too hard
I really don't understand people very well.

This sounds more like Wilt Chamberlain to me. If one player is vastly outperforming the rest of the team, the entire game suffers. In Wilt's case, he went through several coaches and a lot of players simply didn't want to be on the same team with him. All the while he was setting record after record.

Individual performance does not necessarily make for a happy group, for a wide variety of reasons.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thalin wrote:

Melee characters have trouble shining @ 14, pending them getting a good charge line and having pounce. Blasters are less-damaging archers, so anything you do against the archer will hurt them.

Archers at that level should average 150 or so damage; is he somehow doing more? There are plenty of monsters that can survive that volley.

Mages can do all sorts of nasty things to make him hate life; and yes, wind wall is a 1-shot answer.

Let's see this "god build", I'm guessing it is not so bad and the others are simply suboptimal for the level.

I have an archer that averages 250 damage per round with his arrows. He's 15th-level.


Weather and cover don't work for well-designed archers.

If you put Seeking on a bow, it completely miss chance for things like concealment. Almost every archer worth a darn gets this.

Cover is eliminated by Improved Precise Shot.

DR often isn't an issue to an archer. They have the most versatile means to overcome damage resistance given different arrows.

As stated earlier if you allow the Ultimate Magic, fickle winds is your best bet. It makes the archer utterly useless.

Other tactics outside the box we use are as follows:

1. Immense hit points. I'm talking tons. I once gave a 12 headed hydra 1200 hit points. I have the Jabberwock 1080 hit points. I have a huge owlbear 700 hit points when the characters were level 7.

How did I come up with these numbers because they surely aren't random.

A. You should figure out the damage output of your group against the armor class of the creature you plan to put them up against.

B. Decide how many rounds you feel the creature should last to make an epic fight.

C. Make sure you take into account the creature's offense including damage output and ability to cause additional dangerous effects.

D. Multiply damage output by the number of rounds you want the creature to last.

E. Watch your players squirm as they start to worry that they might not win. My players start adding up the aggregate damage and wonder if I've lost my mind. But that's the effect I want.

Like you it gets boring if the one archer is cutting everything down before the others even need to engage it. So as a DM I feel to make the encounters feel epic and dangerous I need to alter the capacity of creatures to take damage and do damage.

I suggest you give it a whirl. I think you'll find that it adds back a little of the unknown magic that put players on edge back when they couldn't recite by rote the HD and hit points of every creature in the monster books.

If you take this route, don't forget to alter saves as well so the game doesn't shift to the wizard hogging all the glory by using spells that make the creature fairly weak. You want to make sure the entire party from the wizard on down feels the fear. Even the healer should expend a heal or two during combat because he has to.

Take the mechancial familiarity out of the encounter and make it dangerous. That will put everyone in the group on edge.

Scarab Sages

HarbinNick wrote:

How does 3d8+6 kill a CR+3

at best that is 30 points. longbow+1 for magic weapon+1 for strength 3 arrows, what level ARE you?

As I said 14th.

She is currently using a +4 Thundering Mighty Composite Lognbow (str +4) always hasted and rarely hitting less than a 28. Each attack does 1d8+16 or 3d8+48+2d8 sonic on a crit and she is always able to attack 5 times.

Also significantly the +4 will negate the majority of DR that isn't alignment biased. The +16 to damage means that DR isn't significant unless its at least 15 points worth which will then probably hose the melee fighters too.

Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
lots of cover
Most reasonable cover and concealment is negated by Improved Precise Shot. I'm fairly stingy about total concealment and cover, but perhaps I should shift that a bit.
SmiloDan wrote:

DR X/piercing.

Ioun-like stones, trained suicidal bats, captured spirits, etc., that orbit the target and deflect ranged attacks.
Telekinetic aura that steal and redirect ranged attacks.

I have to say that I dislike adding abilities like this to creatures without a reasonable in game justification.

SmiloDan wrote:

Snatch Arrows.

Blink, Displacement, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Invisiblity, Mirror Image, Blur, Project Image.
Stealth
Buffed dragon with mage armor, shield, and shield of faith.
Aquatic environments
Shatter
Disintegrate
Lots of 10 by 10 rooms with bendy 5 foot wide hallways connecting them.

Unfortunately due to the campaign type I'm running (one that features a heavy focus on wilderness exploration and fey), these sorts of abilities are very uncommon. Part of the "problem" is that as a ranger she has picked her favored enemies well (humans, magical beasts, and fey that I recall off-hand).

SmiloDan wrote:
Multiple targets spread out in a wide array. Too big for Area of Effect attacks, so the archer will have to target each individually.

Actually using multiples of low-powered enemies running forward in fireball formation is one of my favorite ways to make the blaster have more fun.

SmiloDan wrote:

Nilbogs that heal and get temporary hitpoints from arrow wounds.

Extra meat shields with TONS of hit points.
Burrowing opponents.
A fiery aura that burns arrows

These suggestions actually seem pretty good and can be done without breaking verisimilitude too much. Though I doubt I'd use the flaming aura more than once. What are Nilbogs exactly though? I assumed they were a creature but cannot find a source.

SmiloDan wrote:

Sunder

Disarm

I did recently build a sunder monkey NPC to serve as a boss fight and learned to my dismay that archers have very high CMD.

@Maddigan, Your suggestions for alternate ways to build monsters is interesting. I may give it a shot, though I have some concerns that the players may react badly to the change.

I don't have the full build on me though if Melissa stops lurking perhaps she will oblige and post it for you guys.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

At level 14 you need monsters with diverse abilities to keep it challenging. Most fey are gonna get trashed due to their low hp. Most animals are low AC, low special ability monsters.

I would consider reskinning other monsters. Find a monster which has the stuff you need to make a good encounter and change its theme.

Most devils/demons can be reflavored as fey. For example, a marileth would be a good miniboss. It needn't be a six armed woman with a snake body. It could be a winged sprite with a lightning fast sword and a whip. It has the HP to last and DR that slows down the archer.

An iron golem can be an animated tree whose fruit emits poison.


heightened + reach + maximized touch of gracelessness. sorry, but you just lost 11 dex. anti-magic area would help also. bring back the forsaker from masters of the wild 3rd ed. that may bring him down a peg or 2. "o noes this hulking barbarian wants to break my special bow and destroy my magic items!"


The archer in my group just hit level 20 and he has been a force to recon with. However, he has not been immune to danger and he has seen his arrows be less effective. He also has seen times when he can't fire fast enough, or worse, when he has run into ammo problems.

With enough enemies, he has had to burn through ammo fast. He's throwing 6 arrows down range each round. That's a quiver-full every 3 rounds. By using a variety of opponents, he has had to make decisions on where those arrows are the most effective. Also, he has had times where he has wasted ammo, like multishot on a creature that has few hit points left.

He has ways to deal with damage reduction but he needs to remember that his variety of ammo can also be a limitation since he can only have so much of each type.

Underwater has proven to be a problem. He also has had some issues with being swallowed whole by a burrowing creature.

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Trent wrote:

I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.

Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?

wind wall... man it will piss him off. but don't do it to often of he may get butt hurt about you trying to nerf his build.

also a disarm fighter can make his day really bad.

so all in all i would say casters, disarm/trip/sunder (fighters or barbarians), NINJAS, even monks can really balance him out. just remember that you are a dm, so you have the ability to say ,ok you guys get put into a force cube, anti magic field, create pit with illusionary wall(just to name a few circumstances that will take him out of the fight for a few rounds) so many things to stop his dps just for a while.

dont be afraid to stab his character in the back... just make sure you dont twist the knife, if you catch my meaning.

Dark Archive

Wait... D8+16 * 5 = 20.5 * 5 = 102.5 average damage, with exceptional crits and the odd miss balancing each other out. Few creatures can't take that at that level, and cr + 3 can take that for many rounds.

That's actually expected per party member; and of course the odd AC 40 guy will take far less. There should be no need to compensate here; this isn't terribly impressive.

I guess you're just having problems making a melee and blaster shine in a wilderness setting. That is tough; you've made an optimal archery campaign, so of course the melee will lag behind. And blasters... it's hard to make them shine, they are one of the few archetypes that did not get extensively better in transition.


Class levels are always your friend. For example, the following encounter that's CR18, guaranteed to get some laughs and be a challenging fight to boot:

Pixie fighter 2/order of the bow initiate 8, pixie sorcerer 2/dragon disciple (copper) 8, pixie oracle 10, pixie ninja 10.

The sorcerer is caster level 8, enough to shut down anti-invisibility effects and defend against arrows. The oracle is a straight-up healer and buffer, and the ninja is just a cuisinart. You don't even have to go for killing the party, you can just be really annoying with them or even make it an RP encounter extended out to recurring characters if your party takes a liking to them.

Other stuff you might consider: pixie hellknight (admit it, it's funny, just think of the little ironwood hellknight armor and the tiny voice screaming "I AM THE LAW!", leave the implications of how it became a hellknight to the players' imagination), grig cavalier (spirited charge with a toothpick for 3 damage HOOOOOOOOOO!), quickling assassin, nymph bard (always fun), pixie barbarian (beast totems and feral combat, natch), an atomie summoner with a massive eidolon. Fey are fertile breeding grounds for unorthodox, highly amusing, and surprisingly-effective class combinations.


Ok, here goes the build that's causing so much trouble!

Shoshana Stetvenya, ranger (trapper) 14
HP 114
Str 18 Dex 25 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 9
Favored enemies (Human +6, Magical Beast +4, Fey +2)
Favored Terrain (Hills +6, Plains +4, Forest +2, Urban +2)
Animal companion: Roc. It mostly exists as a large maneuverability platform with a high AC.
Traits: Bastard (+1 Will), Devotee of the Green (Skills stuff)

AC 23, Touch 18, Flatfooted 17

Fort +16, Reflex +21, Will +12

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot*, Endurance*, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Deadly Aim, Improved Precise Shot*, Manyshot, Improved Critical (Longbow), Pinpoint Targeting*, Boon Companion, Lookout, Point Blank Master*

*Ranger bonus feat

Basic attack routine: +28/+23/+18 for 2d8+18/1d8+9/1d8+9 at 19-20/x3 (Manyshot)
Usual attack routine: +23/+23/+23/+18/+13 for 2d8+34/1d8+17/1d8+17/1d8+17/1d8+17 at 19-20/x3 (Haste, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot)
Against humans: +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 for 2d8+46/1d8+23/1d8+23/1d8+23/1d8+23 at 19-20/x3 (Haste, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, FE +6)

Items: +4 Thundering Longbow (+4 Str), +1 Halberd, +1 Light Fortification Mithril Chain Shirt, Staglord's Helm, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Cloak of Resistance +5, Greater Bracers of Archery, Ring of Protection +2, Boots of Haste and Friendly Terrain (Urban), Belt of Physical Might +4 (Dex/Str), Headband of Mental Prowess +2 (Wis/Cha)


Matthew Trent wrote:

I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.

Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?

Yeah. Don't use singular NPCs, or if you do plan to use a single big bad, then he best be prepared (read: buffed out the @$$ and armed to the teeth) to deal with 8-12 actions for his 2-3 per round, with him likely being on the receiving end of some very powerful and specialized individuals.

Have battles with multiple foes. Use cover. Use terrain. Use traps. Have waves of foes instead of throwing them all into the fight at once. Have foes use combat options that reduce the effectiveness of certain tactics and strategies against them.

Here's an example. Let's pretend your party is 9th level. So we want a nice CR 9 encounter. A CR 9 encounter is worth 6,400 XP. So first let's get us some badguys. Some level 9 warriors (NPC class) should be about CR 4 (going by the bestiary's NPC levels = .5 CR) which is 1,200 XP. So let's have two of them (2,400 XP), then toss in about 10 1st level warriors and adepts (135 XP each, for 1350 XP) bringing us to 3750. Then, let's toss in a trio of CR 2 pit traps (1800 XP), and some ceiling traps (such as falling chandaliers) at CR 2 (another 1200 XP) bringing us to 6750 XP. Close enough!

As part of their equipment, have the 1st level warriors carry some alchemical items. Tanglefoot bags, smokesticks, alchemist fire, and nets. They can drop the smokesticks to create thick clouds granting total concealment for the badguys (shooting them becomes a pain now). They will toss tanglefoot bags and nets to screw with mobility, and the alchemist fire in large quantities can be frightening (if 6 guys bomb you with alchemist fire, that's 6d6 on round 1, and 6d6 on round 2).

Meanwhile, the smoke can lure the party into a trap, where they must approach, only to find that there are trapdoors that drop them if they try to recklessly charge into the smoke. Likewise, falling objects, wall darts, or some other equally thematic CR 2 trap can be lurking in wait, or even activated against those who would hang back outside of the NPC battle zone.

The CR 4 warriors can be built in many different ways, but in terms of raw HP and BAB they should be in decent shape. An oil of greater magic weapon smeared on their weapons prior to the battle is a good good bet, as are several other potions (such as enlarge person). Give them Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Step-Up, Rapid Shot, and Precise shot, and they can comfortably provide some hurt at a distance or in short range.


You could always throw some undead or undead like incorporal things.
Shadow Critters, or a pumped up Shadow Demon with a whole pack of lesser nasty critters, might be good choice. Animate Dreams can be wicked as well.

Unless you think it would be too much, keep track of the Ammo even with magic quivers you only have some much handy at any one time.

Also pump up the AC some it seems like from your description the archer hits with every shot.


Matthew Trent wrote:

I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.

Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?

Ive had this issue but with rogues... once they get up to 3d6 sneak attack and above they can really do some serious damage. I would assume its even worse with an archer because they can full attack with less issue. It makes it hard if the rest of the group isn't optimized. I feel your pain.

Id maybe try throwing quick mobs that can get up in the archers grill quickly. Also sneaky mobs that can surprise him work really well.


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I think planning specifically against the archer as a bad move. For one it shows inexperience with being a good GM. Instead, we should strive to make encounters more dynamic, so that his single strategy doesn't steamroll them; NOT tailor the encounters to harassing or invalidating his PC.

For example, if fireball is giving you beef, you don't throw out lots of creatures with fire immunity/resistance, you make your encounters more dynamic (less grouped masses, more cover, enemies from different directions, etc).


Ashiel wrote:

I think planning specifically against the archer as a bad move. For one it shows inexperience with being a good GM. Instead, we should strive to make encounters more dynamic, so that his single strategy doesn't steamroll them; NOT tailor the encounters to harassing or invalidating his PC.

For example, if fireball is giving you beef, you don't throw out lots of creatures with fire immunity/resistance, you make your encounters more dynamic (less grouped masses, more cover, enemies from different directions, etc).

As the archer in question, I do understand the DM's pain. It's very hard to let melee shine when I can launch a full round attack against just about anything in the first round of combat and be confident that it won't live to see my next initiative. Raising AC hurts the melee as much as it does me. We've had many running fights, cover/concealment fights, and spread out fights, but in every one I wound up being in a better position than the melee.

More things with terrain is definitely a good option, like in forests having concealment from more than 5 or 10 feet away, but it'd have to be full concealment because I have Improved Precise Shot. That gets wonky quickly.


"Unfortunately due to the campaign type I'm running (one that features a heavy focus on wilderness exploration and fey), these sorts of abilities are very uncommon."

If you can't adjust the world then you are doomed to repeat the problem over and over. The world will change and adapt, the BBEG should be watching. He could be gathering forces up, making plans that all take her into account.

The bad news is that the rules you've set up for yourself seem to strongly favor the archer. Only magic holds high level archers in check, if you take it away you're causing this. Imagine if most of your encounters had fickle winds or total concealment/cover from spells? Imagine enemies advancing behind rows of stone walls just summoned in, or the archer herself being blocked in by walls.

On the other hand, since the archer is the top of the pyramid in this world, you could always have a bunch of archer NPCs tear up the party with rules for sniping and max range.


Ash is spot on. Diversity of encounters is key. It is ok for a pc to be great in lots of encounters if she has trouble once in a while. For archers, all it really takes is weather. Or air elementals. Keep changing it up and use multiple enemies more often than one big one.


I've come to find that the CR system is pretty worthless when it comes to challanging competent players. If im playing a cleric I probably wont burn anything above a first level spell in anything less than an APL + 1 encounter.

Example:
One of my favorite encounters that I have thrown at my PC's (APL 4) so far for a boss fight was a Drider, two drow rogues 3 and one drow sorcerer 3. On top of that only one of the PC's were able to act in the surprise round. It was in an area of desert ruins so the party was fairly spread out. The rogues were dropped very quickly, but unfortunately for the party the gunslinger 1/rogue 3 managed to get pushed off of a 50 foot pillar so the sorcerer was free to control the battlefield with illusions while the drider picked off the party members one by one. The druid and ranger + animal companions ended up surrounding the drider after the monk and sorcerer got knocked out. They lowered it all the way to 3hp before the last one of them fell unconscious. The gunslinger 1/rogue 3 had just finished finishing off the sorcerer when this happened. The sad part came when the drider pulled out the longbow and hit the gunslinger/rogue for over his remaining hp such a bad way to end an epic fight. Party starts to sulk when I look at the gunslinger/rogue and I say "Aren't you glad you picked half orc?" He just smiles,rolls his attack roll and destroys the touch AC of the drider killing it and then falling unconscious room erupts in cheering and high fiving, but he leveled up from the kill and gained enough hp to stand back up.

Point being if I had followed the CR system no way I would have thrown that encounter at them (maybe just the drider), but they were able to overcome it no matter how slim it was and this was after several taxing encounters. You seem to have a decent feel for your party and do not plan your encounters fearing that someone might die. Note that this is not to say you should plan encounters trying to kill people, its a fine line, but if you can walk it your PC's will be having a blast.


pipedreamsam wrote:

I've come to find that the CR system is pretty worthless when it comes to challanging competent players. If im playing a cleric I probably wont burn anything above a first level spell in anything less than an APL + 1 encounter.

** spoiler omitted **

Point being if I had followed the CR system no way I would have thrown that encounter at them (maybe just the drider), but they were able to overcome it no matter how slim it was and this was after several taxing encounters. You seem to have a decent feel for your party and do not plan your encounters fearing that someone might die. Note that this is not to say you should plan encounters trying to kill people, its a fine line, but if you...

I've come to find that the CR system is pretty brutal when it comes to challenging competent players. If I'm GMing for a cleric, they will probably burn a lot of their spells for anything more than an APL -1 encounter. Damn kobolds, damn them I say. :P

Man when I follow the CR system and don't run the NPCs like they want adamantine enemas from the heroes, it tends to get pretty darn nasty. Have you ever seen some of the abilities monsters get? Or that hydra with the snatch feat (that was wonderfully disastrous); and man have you seen the nastiness that is humanoid NPCs? It's sick how easy they make it for GMs to crush players beneath their heels. *giggles*


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Point being if I had followed the CR system no way I would have thrown that encounter at them (maybe just the drider), but they were able to overcome it no matter how slim it was and this was after several taxing encounters. You seem to have a decent feel for your party and do not plan your encounters fearing that someone might die. Note that this is not to say you should plan encounters trying to kill people, its a fine line, but if you...

I've come to find that the CR system is pretty brutal when it comes to challenging competent players. If I'm GMing for a cleric, they will probably burn a lot of their spells for anything more than an APL -1 encounter. Damn kobolds, damn them I say. :P

Man when I follow the CR system and don't run the NPCs like they want adamantine enemas from the heroes, it tends to get pretty darn nasty. Have you ever seen some of the abilities monsters get? Or that hydra with the snatch feat (that was wonderfully disastrous); and man have you seen the nastiness that is humanoid NPCs? It's sick how easy they make it for GMs to crush players beneath their heels. *giggles*

Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First level monks can deflect one arrow per turn (a bad guy might get some monk bodyguards if he hears a nasty archer is on his/her way - that's what reputations are for after all).

Swarms are nice too.. and arrow-proof

If you have smart enemies they can really pull a number with a decent ambush. A nice trap or two just off the path or road can be surprising when PC's dive for cover....


Ravingdork wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

I've come to find that the CR system is pretty brutal when it comes to challenging competent players. If I'm GMing for a cleric, they will probably burn a lot of their spells for anything more than an APL -1 encounter. Damn kobolds, damn them I say. :P

Man when I follow the CR system and don't run the NPCs like they want adamantine enemas from the heroes, it tends to get pretty darn nasty. Have you ever seen some of the abilities monsters get? Or that hydra with the snatch feat (that was wonderfully disastrous); and man have you seen the nastiness that is humanoid NPCs? It's sick how easy they make it for GMs to crush players beneath their heels. *giggles*

Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.

Come play in my games. :P

EDIT: Actually Ravingdork, did you not like my help with your goblins? Q.Q

Scarab Sages

lastblacknight wrote:
Swarms are nice too.. and arrow-proof.

They are also sword proof which defeats the goal of making the meele guys shine. The goal after all is not to make Melissa useless, but rather to make the sword wielders shine.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:


Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.

put a npc in a volcano with lava all around, it wont modify the cr at all by the rules, but when that pc gets bull ruhed into it... well that cr ten encounter just one shot that fighter lol.


RD: I think NPC's are more difficult to deal with than monsters, depending on the build that is. Considering some of your builds I am surprised you feel that stock monsters can compete with a customized NPC.


TheSideKick wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.

put a npc in a volcano with lava all around, it wont modify the cr at all by the rules, but when that pc gets bull ruhed into it... well that cr ten encounter just one shot that fighter lol.

GM: "The marilith gives you a harsh glare and seems to focus. I need a will save."

Player: *rolls a 21*
A Short Time Later...
Player: "WTF do you mean the marilith hurled me into the Volcano!?"


Ashiel wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.

put a npc in a volcano with lava all around, it wont modify the cr at all by the rules, but when that pc gets bull ruhed into it... well that cr ten encounter just one shot that fighter lol.

GM: "The marilith gives you a harsh glare and seems to focus. I need a will save."

Player: *rolls a 21*
A Short Time Later...
Player: "WTF do you mean the marilith hurled me into the Volcano!?"

Telekinesis is brutal in certain areas. :)

I am assuming that is what happened.


wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


Almost any monster ability can be countered in some way. A hydra would only be able to snatch small heroes. NPCs are far easier to kill than most monsters due to not having HP bloat. At best, they become on par with PCs in the whole "he who wins initiative wins" game.

I fail to see how any of this is terribly impressive in challenging competent PCs.

put a npc in a volcano with lava all around, it wont modify the cr at all by the rules, but when that pc gets bull ruhed into it... well that cr ten encounter just one shot that fighter lol.

GM: "The marilith gives you a harsh glare and seems to focus. I need a will save."

Player: *rolls a 21*
A Short Time Later...
Player: "WTF do you mean the marilith hurled me into the Volcano!?"

Telekinesis is brutal in certain areas. :)

I am assuming that is what happened.

You are so right. :P


Matthew Trent,

If you play with monster hit points and saves, do so sparingly or it will upset your players. I mostly adjust hit points for singular powerful creature of a bestial nature or that I know will be fighting alone like dragons where action economy is working heavily against them.

Like you I want a fight to feel epic and one player not to hog the spotlight. I'd rather the fight feel as though the group fought a knock down, drag out fight they barely survived against some opponents without being too clever about it.

A raging owlbear that can't go toe to toe with a group isn't much of a threat when you built it up to be over the course of an adventure. A dragon that gets killed in one round after the wizard strips off it's buffs and the archer sticks it full of arrows doesn't seem all that great. But when the dragon stands toe to toe with your group shrugging off 90% of your spells and you've done a 1000 points of damage to it, expended two or three heals, and it's still going, the players start to feel frightened. That's what I'm going for as a DM.

Use it sparingly or it just make the characters feel like they have no real power. I don't want that either. It's always better if they feel all tough after bashing their way through a dungeon easily only to run into something that leaves them reeling.


NPCs are the strongest enemies you can make, though they don't have to be humanoid.

I can't follow the CR system and expect to challenge my groups with standard monsters unless they have really great special abilities.

@Ashiel: I'm surprised your PCs allowed the Marilith to pick the battlefield. They must have really had to fight her near a volcano to do so. If they had a choice, I'm sure they wouldn't have done such a thing. That's pretty nutty to fight where you can easily be tossed into a volcano.

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