Hidden Master (Ninja). Wow. Just... wow.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 176 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

What was the thinking on this? A capstone that lets you become utterly undetectable for 20 rounds while dealing 10 points of ability score penalty with each sneak attack?

Ignoring the insanity that is invisibility that cannot be penetrated even by the most powerful divinations in the game, is opening combat with ten points of ability damage to a fighters strength, dexterity, and constitution even remotely reasonable? How about a caster who now has anything allowing a save out the window, no way to detect the attacker, and is probably buried under his/her gear because of encumbrance?

I don't see how a party of, say 16th or 17th level, is supposed to do anything when confronted by this except A. Waste actions trying to beat invisibility with true seeing, sucking sneak attacks all the while, or B. Run like scared children.

Am I the only one looking at 10 points of ability damage AND unbeatable invisibility and shaking his head?


Wizards have been altering reality to better suit them since level 15.

Clerics are creating their own demiplane. At 12th level.

Come on man. It's the end of the game. Let them have some awesome stuff. It's utterly lame that the sneakiest of person is undone by a simple tremorsense. This gets around that issue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:

Wizards have been altering reality to better suit them since level 15.

Clerics are creating their own demiplane. At 12th level.

Come on man. It's the end of the game. Let them have some awesome stuff. It's utterly lame that the sneakiest of person is undone by a simple tremorsense. This gets around that issue.

Wow, it's the same useless vague comments about wizard and cleric power used to justify something that you see all the time! How insightful. You probably also feel that melee characters are underpowered and casters need a nerf.

The problem here is that there is nothing I can see a party doing in response to this except running or getting sneak attacked to death.

Scarab Sages

It's a penalty to an ability, not damage. Pretty significant difference. And the attacks are still running off 3/4 bab.

In comparison, the rogue capstone ability allows the rogue to kill, paralyze, or put to sleep the target of a sneak attack. The target is allowed a fortitude save, with a dc that's basically 20+ the rogues int mod.

At 20th level, being invisible isn't all that great anyhow. It's a standard action to activate the invisibility, and it can be dispelled normally. Melee combatants can always target a square and take their 50/50, ect.

Really, improved invisibility isn't super great at that level for anything besides giving the ninja their sneak attacks :p


Magicdealer wrote:

It's a penalty to an ability, not damage. Pretty significant difference. And the attacks are still running off 3/4 bab.

In comparison, the rogue capstone ability allows the rogue to kill, paralyze, or put to sleep the target of a sneak attack. The target is allowed a fortitude save, with a dc that's basically 20+ the rogues int mod.

At 20th level, being invisible isn't all that great anyhow. It's a standard action to activate the invisibility, and it can be dispelled normally. Melee combatants can always target a square and take their 50/50, ect.

Really, improved invisibility isn't super great at that level for anything besides giving the ninja their sneak attacks :p

Are we really comparing a DC... 25 (maybe?) rogue capstone with which many, many beings will have outright immunity to 10 points of ability score penalty with each attack and unbeatable immunity (free sneak attacks)?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

No. It's pointing out that a martial character finally has something awesome at 20th level, and that it's suddenly seen as overpowered.

Whereas when spellcasters are tearing reality apart at much lower levels (aka: much more attainable levels), people just yawn.

Martial characters shouldn't be boring throughout all their levels.

People won't have to point this out when other people finally understand this.

Just throw some flour over them. You aren't detecting them. You're detecting the flour stuck to them.

And penalties to ability scores will never kill you.


A sneak attack can be done up to 30ft away. How is the target going to figure out which hex to target to take his 50/50 ?

You can't Wish someone to do this. This power is much greater than Wish because it has a much greater effect on a character than a Wish can.

As such, I would allow Glitterdust or similar magic to work against it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's a pretty sweet ability don't get me wrong but a couple of things stick out.

1. Can't reduce ability scores down past 1 so you cna't outright kill anyone with it.

2. Can't stack with itself so your one -10 hit to a score is pretty much it.

3. Welcome to level twenty? Seriously the ninja just learned how to be a ghost dog killa while most of the other classes have done things like become demigods, created worlds, become ageless entities at one with the world, or learned how to murder people with their voice. There are barbarians beign built at this level that can render most encounters at this level into pink mist with a single charge from their bat. These same barbarians are rending time adn space itself asunder as they destroy demiplanes by being mad at it.

So how would a party deal with this master of invisbility?

Well I think the stickler is "can't be detected by any means" which rules out simple perception checks, magic, or really even the flour trick. So, the solution is to lure our deadly murderer into a cramped area, close it off, drop an antimagic aura or two and watch the full bab FIGHTY's run a train on our scrawny hidden master friend.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The problem with freaking out about something that comes out at level 20 is that, realistically, the wheels came off the wagon several levels ago at that point.

If Hidden Master is the craziest thing in your game with level ~20 characters, both players and GM are doing something wrong.


Dire Mongoose wrote:


If Hidden Master is the craziest thing in your game with level ~20 characters, both players and GM are doing something wrong.

Pfft my players are currently trying to prove the fihters innocence in a murder, underwater, with mermaids, they are vikings. Soon they will be fighting ina city agaisnt legions of fishmen on the back of a serpent as long as the world is wide.

They're level 9.

You wanna get nuts! Let's get nuts!


TarkXT wrote:
You wanna get nuts! Let's get nuts!

I rest my case. No further questions, your honor!

But back on topic:

1) Anyone with Uncanny Dodge just sort of shrugs at this. 2nd level barbarian? Well, probably a 20th level ninja can beat him in melee, but he can't sneak attack him without a flanking buddy.

2) There are lots of ways to beat sneak attack; most of them each have counters in turn, etc. etc., but you don't have to just sit there and take it.

3) The ninja can't be detected by any means, but no one said anything about Dispel.

4) Just plain nuking enough area to catch the offending ninja (not always applicable, but, sometimes). If you're worried about evasion, the world is full of Fort, Will, or no save area effects.

5) Crazy crap like Wish and Miracle are out by then. Wizard: I really wish that ninja hadn't turned invisible like that.

6) Battlefield control. Solid fog or wall of force yourself and wait it out.

7) Push comes to shove, teleport away and teleport back in 2 minutes.

8) If we're talking melee and you're a fighter or something, just go ahead and ready an action to grab the ninja when they attack. You can always see someone you're grappling no matter how they'd normally be unseen to you. Then the ganging begins.

I could go on.


Peter Stewart wrote:


To those suggesting ways to overcome the invisibility with low levels spells: read the face the ability and come back when you've do so. It explicitly states that it cannot be overcome. Suggestions on how to do so go in the houserules forum. I'm talking to you as well "Mr. Legitimate Counterpoints" Sean FitzSimon. Thanks.

I did read the ability. Multiple times, actually. My options were not to reveal the ninja, as that is explicitly impossible. Rather, it reveals the -location- of the ninja, leaving the attacker prone to all the downfalls of an invisible opponent. The second part of my suggestion involved using summoned creatures and wall spells to shape the battlefield and help identify where the attacker is.


Anyways, going past the discussion about his tone...

The intent of the ability is clearly to allow them to still sneak past things with blindsense, tremorsense, lifesense, whatever else there is. This is a well known problem with stealth characters because a natural 20 and a +45 to Stealth means absolutely nothing if the enemy has blindsense or tremorsense.

This ability gets around that.

However, you are absolutely right. They can't be detected. The glitterdust on them can be. So does the flour. It doesn't just fall right through them. As does the water ripples he makes by stepping through a small puddle. Or the foot steps he makes through soft mud.

Once you know there is a ninja in the area, do you think the party is just going to go "WHELP, WE CAN'T DETECT HIM EASILY. LET'S JUST STAND HERE AND DIE." Or do you think they'll start whacking random squares? Or casting Dispel. Or casting Wish. Or creating a demiplane and just chillaxin' there for a while. Maybe they'll use one of the many AoE spells that affect just enemies. Maybe they'll retreat a little bit to plan a better way to deal with the ninja.

Perhaps use chokepoints, so if someone is hit, they know where the ninja has to be. Wall of Stone to make a walls such that that's the case!

Wow. That's actually kind of cool. A level 20 class ability on a martial class that actually forces the party to think, rather than just charge'n'kill.

The penalty aspect has already been covered.

So. Is that overpowered? I suppose if you're in the fantasy realm where you don't balance things based on all the other aspects of the game, including high level spell casters, sure. But at that point you're just being arbitrary with what's allowed to be balanced against, so I'm not sure why anyone would take that stance.

Let's compare it to other capstone abilities of the martial characters.

Bard: Kill's someone. Ok, that's nice enough, I suppose. The Ninjas is better than that, for the reasons that Peter gave above (death effect immunity). I'd still much prefer a Bard in the party than a Ninja. Sure, at level 20 the Ninja is doing awesome things like not being detected by anything other than flour, a pool of water, dispel magic, Wish, etc. But the bard has been doing awesome things for the party since level 1.

Barbarian: Mighty Rag-- oops, no. Tireless Rage. Suddenly all your once per rage powers are once per round. Awesome. Much better than the ninjas. Who needs to apply a penalty to an enemy, when you can cleave them in two?

Ranger: Hey! It's not a death effect. Awesome. Also, depending on rulings on Instant Enemy and Hunter's Howl, you could potentially use it many more times than 5 per day.

Paladin: Banishes Balors. I don't even need to talk about how good that one is.

Rogue: Rogues suck.

Cavalier: Situational, but sometimes better than death effects. Ninja's is better.

Monk: Eh. Ninja's is better.

Inquisitor: Not a death effect! And reusable as often as you want against varied enemies! Awesome! Blows Ninja's out of the water.

Magus: Nice! Treerazer hitting you while you're casting a spell with spellcombat can really screw you up. No more worries about that! Also, better DCs! Quite good.

Fighter: 15-20/x3 urumi? Automatically confirms all crits? This is awesome. 17-20/x4 Falcata? Phenomenal.

So it's better than...three (rogue, monk, cavalier). One is debatable (bard). The rest (barbarian, inquisitor, ranger, magus, paladin, fighter) are better than the Ninja's capstone.

Plus, they aren't foiled by flour. Well, maybe the paladin's is, if he accidentally hits a speck of flour instead of that balor. I'm fairly certain flour isn't evil, so the smite would be wasted.


FYI: I haven't read the ability.

What are thoughts on throwing flour on the floor? Foot prints.


Cheapy wrote:


Paladin: Banishes Balors. I don't even need to talk about how good that one is.

So it's better than...three (rogue, monk, cavalier). One is debatable (bard). The rest (barbarian, inquisitor, ranger, magus, paladin, fighter) are better than the Ninja's capstone.

No, Paladin, Rogue, and Monk all have sucky ones.

You aak why Paladin? Because you get 1/day useage out in 1 rd. If you failed to banish the Balor, you wasted the smite.
Smite is bette at lv 19 as a damage boost till Balor dead. Not one time attack boost.
3.5 Paladin used that. Why nerfing the Pally? Just ew.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


Paladin: Banishes Balors. I don't even need to talk about how good that one is.

So it's better than...three (rogue, monk, cavalier). One is debatable (bard). The rest (barbarian, inquisitor, ranger, magus, paladin, fighter) are better than the Ninja's capstone.

No, Paladin, Rogue, and Monk all have sucky ones.

You aak why Paladin? Because you get 1/day useage out in 1 rd. If you failed to banish the Balor, you wasted the smite.
Smite is bette at lv 19 as a damage boost till Balor dead. Not one time attack boost.
3.5 Paladin used that. Why nerfing the Pally? Just ew.

Rather than argue that, I'll just move that to the Debatable group.

I highly suspect that will be changed in the future.


Capstone abilities just suck in my opinion maybe they are just to look cool, but 'balancing' out characters by such a large disparity in granted abilities is dumb.

It also hurts the potential for epic campaigns, if you actually want to play epic campaigns you probably do better removing/downgrading the capstones and grant something more reasonable you can actually play with.


It's a lvl 20 ninja. They should be bad to the bone.

I'm more concerned about sensory abilities. Can echolocation detect them? Can a glitterdust outline them? Can creatrures with Tremorsense or Blindsense detect them?

How far does the line that says they are undetectable go?


Peter Stewart wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

It's a penalty to an ability, not damage. Pretty significant difference. And the attacks are still running off 3/4 bab.

In comparison, the rogue capstone ability allows the rogue to kill, paralyze, or put to sleep the target of a sneak attack. The target is allowed a fortitude save, with a dc that's basically 20+ the rogues int mod.

At 20th level, being invisible isn't all that great anyhow. It's a standard action to activate the invisibility, and it can be dispelled normally. Melee combatants can always target a square and take their 50/50, ect.

Really, improved invisibility isn't super great at that level for anything besides giving the ninja their sneak attacks :p

Are we really comparing a DC... 25 (maybe?) rogue capstone with which many, many beings will have outright immunity to 10 points of ability score penalty with each attack and unbeatable immunity (free sneak attacks)?

A rogue focused on doing this can do better than a 5. I will also add that glitterdust, and faerie fire defeat it. There is another spell that outlines target also. I think it is in UM, but I am not sure. I do know it is a low level spell.

edit:I missed the "not detectable by any means" part. Dispel magic still works.


wraithstrike wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

It's a penalty to an ability, not damage. Pretty significant difference. And the attacks are still running off 3/4 bab.

In comparison, the rogue capstone ability allows the rogue to kill, paralyze, or put to sleep the target of a sneak attack. The target is allowed a fortitude save, with a dc that's basically 20+ the rogues int mod.

At 20th level, being invisible isn't all that great anyhow. It's a standard action to activate the invisibility, and it can be dispelled normally. Melee combatants can always target a square and take their 50/50, ect.

Really, improved invisibility isn't super great at that level for anything besides giving the ninja their sneak attacks :p

Are we really comparing a DC... 25 (maybe?) rogue capstone with which many, many beings will have outright immunity to 10 points of ability score penalty with each attack and unbeatable immunity (free sneak attacks)?

A rogue focused on doing this can do better than a 5. I will also add that glitterdust, and faerie fire defeat it. There is another spell that outlines target also. I think it is in UM, but I am not sure. I do know it is a low level spell.

edit:I missed the "not detectable by any means" part. Dispel magic still works.

I see things immune to ability damage. Who immune to penalty?


klevis69 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

It's a penalty to an ability, not damage. Pretty significant difference. And the attacks are still running off 3/4 bab.

In comparison, the rogue capstone ability allows the rogue to kill, paralyze, or put to sleep the target of a sneak attack. The target is allowed a fortitude save, with a dc that's basically 20+ the rogues int mod.

At 20th level, being invisible isn't all that great anyhow. It's a standard action to activate the invisibility, and it can be dispelled normally. Melee combatants can always target a square and take their 50/50, ect.

Really, improved invisibility isn't super great at that level for anything besides giving the ninja their sneak attacks :p

Are we really comparing a DC... 25 (maybe?) rogue capstone with which many, many beings will have outright immunity to 10 points of ability score penalty with each attack and unbeatable immunity (free sneak attacks)?

A rogue focused on doing this can do better than a 5. I will also add that glitterdust, and faerie fire defeat it. There is another spell that outlines target also. I think it is in UM, but I am not sure. I do know it is a low level spell.

edit:I missed the "not detectable by any means" part. Dispel magic still works.

I see things immune to ability damage. Who immune to penalty?

Nothing I know is immune to penalties. They may be immune to whatever causes the penalty though. In the case of the ninja I don't think anything is immune unless they are immune to whatever condition would lead to sneak attack. Blur would since concealment messes us sneak attack.

Liberty's Edge

Peter Stewart wrote:
Am I the only one looking at 10 points of ability damage AND unbeatable invisibility and shaking his head?

No. You are the only one openly ignoring people who do not agree with him.

Congratulations for your honesty, I guess.

Silver Crusade

12 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pro Tip: One should open discussion topics on forums only when he/she wants a discussion, and never if what one wants is to find support for his/her position and go "NUH NUH NUH CAN'T HEAR YOU" on folks who think otherwise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Pro Tip: One should open discussion topics on forums only when he/she wants a discussion, and never if what one wants is to find support for his/her position and go "NUH NUH NUH CAN'T HEAR YOU" on folks who think otherwise.

Exactly. Also, it's a 20th level capstone. Who cares what crazy stuff happens at that level? It's the end of the game, the point where you hand out the last level-up as a reward and go "So, our next campaign is gonna be about..."

Grand Lodge

I've got a hint for you: The ninja has been able to kill someone outright since level 10, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/ninja.html ,go to master tricks, it's just under Advanced Talents. The saves are the same, only the ninja doesn't get the other options that the rogue gets, but who cares, you can incapacitate them with ability damage using Nerve Strikes.


Gorbacz wrote:
Pro Tip: One should open discussion topics on forums only when he/she wants a discussion, and never if what one wants is to find support for his/her position and go "NUH NUH NUH CAN'T HEAR YOU" on folks who think otherwise.

This. So very much this.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As a DM I don't see this as overpowered in the least. There are plenty of options both for PC's and DM's to not be hindered by this one ability. Everything ranging from cantrips and first level spells to even just throwing extra lantern oil in the area the ninja was to get the oil to splash on them.

Now, I will say my personal preference I would not allow the ninja to be detectable at level 20 with the flour/water/mud on the floor.

For me personally, part of being the Ultimate Ninja is that you get past those kinds of situations. Getting something thrown on you or cast on you though...that's a different situation.

Liberty's Edge

Actually it's a super natural ability, so it can't be dispelled. Well unless you plop down antimagic...


13 people marked this as a favorite.

Someone at level 20 is doing something amazing?!

My monocle, sir, has popped clean off - and I don't mind adding that my bow tie is spinning at an incredible rate! Not even going into how wide both my eyes and agape jaw are!

The Exchange

Kill it! Kill it with fire.

Of course, that's always a good idea!


*monocle*


OP

It is a ninja! they literally sneak attack people to death from nowhere this sounds fine to me for a level 20 ninja. in fact I submit to you this is ability is the dictionary definition of "ninja"

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

magnuskn wrote:
... it's a 20th level capstone. Who cares what crazy stuff happens at that level? It's the end of the game, the point where you hand out the last level-up as a reward and go "So, our next campaign is gonna be about..."

Well, not everyone does that :)

In fact, it's abilities like this that can be a nightmare for my players, yet not for me, because I can create a level 20 throwaway character for a session, while any of the players would have to gain 20 levels in order to gain a cool new capstone.

So, hell yeah, bring it on.

Also, +10 to Cheapy's comment. This is an awesome ability that forces the party to think. I hadn't even considered it in that light. Very cool.


To be fair for the glitterdust example, all glitterdust does is impose a -40 penalty to Stealth checks, mechanics wise. If you cannot use any means to detect the ninja, which would include a Perception check, that -40 doesn't mean anything.

Classes that get uncanny dodge will have a few natural defenses against this ability and, obviously, so would a character based on the Blind-Fight feat tree though that whole "can't detect" thing makes it a bit more difficult.

1 to 50 of 176 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Hidden Master (Ninja). Wow. Just... wow. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.