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Is a dip into wizard worth it for the Magus?


Advice

Grand Lodge

You die on BAB but get a +2 will save, you get additional cantrips, access to all the 1st level spells (including mage armour), Familar (if you want to save on a magus arcana that allows familars) and scribe scroll as well as a possible bonus for school.

Is this shooting myself in the foot or what?


Not in the foot.
I considered this from the other side and you can be powerful for a second lvl char.


Helaman wrote:

You die on BAB but get a +2 will save, you get additional cantrips, access to all the 1st level spells (including mage armour), Familar (if you want to save on a magus arcana that allows familars) and scribe scroll as well as a possible bonus for school.

Is this shooting myself in the foot or what?

It depends on what your overall build will look like. Personally, I like a single level of a Wizard with the Foresight Specialty, since it means never rolling one again. These is an interesting build incorporating the Student of War prestige class that includes a level of wizard and really maxes out AC. With the Magus, you can really build it to supplement or excel at least one of most party roles.

Remember, when designing considering a character design, ask yourself if 1) it will be effective at the job I want it do, and 2) is this the character, aside from mechanics, that I want to play. So long as your mechanics are effective, it won't really matter whether it is min/maxed in most games.


Bromton wrote:

Not in the foot.

I considered this from the other side and you can be powerful for a second lvl char.

I used magus for the armor profecency light and thus i can take Arcane Armor Training and get armor powers.


Nevermind, Ninja'd well in advance. xD


I've actually been toying around with a Wizard dip for the admixture subschool specialization, for when you really need shockig Touch to be acid, fire or cold touch.

Grand Lodge

Gwyrdallan wrote:
I've actually been toying around with a Wizard dip for the admixture subschool specialization, for when you really need shockig Touch to be acid, fire or cold touch.

Might apply when you are using wizard spells - not so sure if you are trying to use your Wizard school to affect magus spells (even though both are arcane)

Shadow Lodge

I don't know about the usefulness of a Wizard dip, but a crossblooded sorcerer dip for two arcanas that add to spell damage per die is a wortwhile dip for anyone looking to add more oomph to their touch spells. Primal/Draconic or even Orc/Primal.


Muser wrote:
I don't know about the usefulness of a Wizard dip, but a crossblooded sorcerer dip for two arcanas that add to spell damage per die is a wortwhile dip for anyone looking to add more oomph to their touch spells. Primal/Draconic or even Orc/Primal.

That's actually a pretty good idea, but it's hard to pull off since CHA is the most common dump stat for any magus (Unless you have a really high point buy or rolled extremely well)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Helaman wrote:

You die on BAB but get a +2 will save, you get additional cantrips, access to all the 1st level spells (including mage armour), Familar (if you want to save on a magus arcana that allows familars) and scribe scroll as well as a possible bonus for school.

Is this shooting myself in the foot or what?

It's shooting yourself in the foot. the only thing worthwile on that pile is the will save bonus and you can do that with a feat. You suffer arcane spell failure on your wizard spells and delay your magus class ability and spell progression. and your caster levels don't stack.

Qadira

A Wizard dip won't get you much, but it'll get you a few interesting things, like mage armour, and access to the Wizard spell list for the puposes of spamming wands and so forth (although a Magus has UMD as a class skill anyway). Remember you can't cast one class's spells with the other class's slots, that (as LazarX points out) you suffer arcane spell failure for your armour for your Wizard spells, and that you won't be progressing your Wizard caster level or school powers. Still, for a Magus like a kensai - who can't cast in armour anyway, and who could really use the mage armour - I could see it being an option to think about. It'll expand your range of utility spells a bit too.

The Sorcerer option is probably better. As Muser suggests you can dip one level of crossblooded for a +2 damage per die of 'element X' bloodline arcana combo (which works with all your spells) - and the Magus gets a lot of blasty-type spells to play with. Electricity, for spamming those spellstrike Shocking Grasps, would seem a good choice.

You don't really need more than 11 Charisma to pull it off - enough to qualify for level 1 Sorcerer spells - and again you gain wand access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ProfPotts wrote:
A Wizard dip won't get you much, but it'll get you a few interesting things, like mage armour, and access to the Wizard spell list for the puposes of spamming wands and so forth (although a Magus has UMD as a class skill anyway).

Mage Armor? again you get the same AC with a chain shirt, which you can wear as a Magus, and you have your class access to the shield spell. If you want the spell access of a wizard you're better off going fighter/wizard and eventual Eldritch Knight, which gives you full access to wizard spells, and ultimately a better BAB and spell access. (you just lose the ability to be simultaneous with your spells and swordwork which is what the magus gives you.)

To be a Magus is to be a warmage, as for the other stuff, that's what support casters are for! :) But seriously as a magus the kind of wands you want to spam are the ones for spells that you can cast... spells of battle, and utility support for same. If you wanted that other stuff... you'd have stuck to books.

Qadira

A kensai Magus (the example I mentioned) can't cast in even light armour, and doesn't get the Proficiency for free - hence the whole Mage Armour thing. Sorry, I should have made that clearer.


Sry to dig out this thread, but I wondered about the wizards arcane bond. Is it wizard spells only is it granted for any spell the multi-class magus/wiz has in his spell book(s)?

thx


Yes, wiz. Spells only. Just like the way you can't cast wiz. Spells using magus armor prof. You can't use a wiz. Arcane bond for a magus spell

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Joegoat wrote:
Yes, wiz. Spells only. Just like the way you can't cast wiz. Spells using magus armor prof. You can't use a wiz. Arcane bond for a magus spell

And again you don't even need to...because eventually you get the ability to pull any of your spellbook spells out of your hat by using your Arcane Pool.


Thx guys!
Just wondered bcs the Arcane School Powers do work for both and I dont really see the difference.

But its fine as is - bcs otherwise one might argue my Magus has to wear the item for casting without concentration like the Wiz.


I may have missed someone else mentioning it, but another important flaw is those cantrips and spells you have as a wizard can't be used with spell combat or spellstrike.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Helaman wrote:
Gwyrdallan wrote:
I've actually been toying around with a Wizard dip for the admixture subschool specialization, for when you really need shockig Touch to be acid, fire or cold touch.
Might apply when you are using wizard spells - not so sure if you are trying to use your Wizard school to affect magus spells (even though both are arcane)

Yes, admixture applies to all evocations cast, even non-wizard evocations. The familiar won't advance, but it will have half your hit points, and you'll be able to upgrade it with Improved Familiar using your magus caster level, even though it came from your wizard levels. It's a trade-off of spell progression and BAB that I don't think is worth it, but it may work for you.


If you want a dip that grants familiar, tattooed sorcerer is probably a better bet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
WRoy wrote:
If you want a dip that grants familiar, tattooed sorcerer is probably a better bet.

Or again, just take the appropriate arcana. No need to break your magus progression for it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You could take the Broad Study arcana if you really want the Admixture school power without loosing out on your wizard spells and spell combat. I don't know that it's optimal but it works.


So, maybe that D+ that I got in Reading Comprehension is kicking in again, but the Spell combat/spell strike entries read "from the magus spell list". Does that mean that if I have a spell from another class (e.g. I prepped shocking grasp as a wiz.), but it is on the magus spell list, I'd be able to use it w/out taking broad study? I'm fairly sure that the RAI is NO, but the RAW is unclear, at least to me, anyway.

Also, as far as a level dip, I'd go for crossblooded sorc. with draconic/wildblooded arcane(sage). Get to use INT for sorc. spells, have access to the Dragon Disciple class (at lv.13+ is when I'd take it), and the same access to spells as the wiz.


galahad2112 wrote:

So, maybe that D+ that I got in Reading Comprehension is kicking in again, but the Spell combat/spell strike entries read "from the magus spell list". Does that mean that if I have a spell from another class (e.g. I prepped shocking grasp as a wiz.), but it is on the magus spell list, I'd be able to use it w/out taking broad study? I'm fairly sure that the RAI is NO, but the RAW is unclear, at least to me, anyway.

Also, as far as a level dip, I'd go for crossblooded sorc. with draconic/wildblooded arcane(sage). Get to use INT for sorc. spells, have access to the Dragon Disciple class (at lv.13+ is when I'd take it), and the same access to spells as the wiz.

A shocking grasp you prepared in a wizard slot would not be able to be cast as part of spell combat, nor could you use spellstrike to deliver it.

Broad Study could be used to allow it, but you wouldn't be able to take it until you had at least six magus levels. Considering you'd be restricted to your wizard caster level for the wizard spells, spending an arcana on Broad Study is a bit of a waste. Even if you did take this arcana, your wizard spells would still suffer from arcane spell failure if you wore any armor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
galahad2112 wrote:

So, maybe that D+ that I got in Reading Comprehension is kicking in again, but the Spell combat/spell strike entries read "from the magus spell list". Does that mean that if I have a spell from another class (e.g. I prepped shocking grasp as a wiz.), but it is on the magus spell list, I'd be able to use it w/out taking broad study? I'm fairly sure that the RAI is NO, but the RAW is unclear, at least to me, anyway.

The only spells that you can spellcombat with are those from your magus spell slots. Identical spells from other classes won't cut it unless you have arcana or feats that say specifically otherwise. The Wizard spells you gain at 19th level do qualify.


That's basically what I figured, the only issue being that it added the qualifier "from the magus spell list." Since many other classes get those same spells, it would seem ridiculous to disallow, based on the text. Don't get me wrong, there's a vast array of reasons that it would be a bad idea, it just seems that the wording isn't as specific as it could have been. Writing "any spell that the magus prepares from his class spell slots" would have been just as easy to write and would not allow for any ambiguity.

Is the reasoning behind the "from the magus spell list" part of a subset of general rules that equates "spell list" with "spell slots from that class"?

I'm certainly not in favor of dipping into wizard to gain access to a few additional low-level shocking grasps. It's just that the wording would seem to be ambiguous, much like the hotly debated "flurry that blows" topic. I really don't want to get that sort of thing started here, I'm just looking for clarification on WHY "a spell on the magus spell list" is not just "a magus spell."


Also, in the related to the OP half of my previous post, does anyone have advice/criticism/any random thought on a magus going into Dragon Disciple?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
galahad2112 wrote:
Also, in the related to the OP half of my previous post, does anyone have advice/criticism/any random thought on a magus going into Dragon Disciple?

Yes...why? For one thing you don't qualify, you'd have to take a level of sorcerer and those are the spells it would advance. The Dragon disciple in the main is for sorcerer who occasionally wants to claw or scorch his enemies to death. There's not much synergy with the style of the magus to it at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ProfPotts wrote:

A Wizard dip won't get you much, but it'll get you a few interesting things, like mage armour, and access to the Wizard spell list for the puposes of spamming wands and so forth (although a Magus has UMD as a class skill anyway). Remember you can't cast one class's spells with the other class's slots, that (as LazarX points out) you suffer arcane spell failure for your armour for your Wizard spells, and that you won't be progressing your Wizard caster level or school powers. Still, for a Magus like a kensai - who can't cast in armour anyway, and who could really use the mage armour - I could see it being an option to think about. It'll expand your range of utility spells a bit too.

If you're doing Kensai, I'd rather go with either a wand of mage armor (eiher UMD'd or cast by an ally) or good old bracers. You can always pick up that spell with the the whatitsname arcana.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
galahad2112 wrote:
Also, in the related to the OP half of my previous post, does anyone have advice/criticism/any random thought on a magus going into Dragon Disciple?
Yes...why? For one thing you don't qualify, you'd have to take a level of sorcerer and those are the spells it would advance. The Dragon disciple in the main is for sorcerer who occasionally wants to claw or scorch his enemies to death. There's not much synergy with the style of the magus to it at all.

That's not strictly true. He can pick the magus spells to advance, as listed here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disci ple wrote:
At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

That infers that he is not obligated to choose a spontaneous spellcaster as the class whose spells advance.


as I said
"Also, as far as a level dip, I'd go for crossblooded sorc. with draconic/wildblooded arcane(sage). Get to use INT for sorc. spells, have access to the Dragon Disciple class (at lv.13+ is when I'd take it)/"

I guess that I should explain my reasoning.

1) I'm not all that impressed with the higher level stuff that the magus gets (beyond Imp. spell recall, I don't really see any great benefits)

2) By the time that I'd go into DD, I'd have most of my spells already, but I would still increase my magus spells, as DD states "If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."

3) d12 hit die

4) sorc. bloodline powers (mainly natural armor)

5) +4 str +2 int and +2 con.

6) decent selection of bonus feats (Power attack, toughness, great fortitude, blind-fight, etc.)

7) breath weapon/dragon form/natural attacks

I'd say that those have a good bit of synergy with the magus.


NO NO NO NO NO.

p.s. NO


Helaman wrote:


Is this shooting myself in the foot or what?

It is shooting yourself in the foot.

When you look to multiclass you want to ask a few questions:

1. What is this level giving me NOW?
2. What am I paying for it NOW?
3. What will it give me LATER, and how much will that COST me THEN?

If you are building a magus around using shocking grasp over and over, then a dip into crossblooded sorcerer for +20 to damage on a 10d6 spell that is your bread, butter and dessert can be seen as worth it.

But for a level in wizard? Eh. It's going to be hard to have that level 1 wizard school power carry through. Mind you divination (foresight) really does rock. And evocation gives a reasonable benefit along the lines of a must have feat, but it's not worth a dead level.

-James


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For certain specific concepts it can work: magus/admixture specialist to switch energy types on the fly, kensai magus/foresight specialist, myrmidiarch magus/spellslinger for a "gun mage," staff magus/wizard with the Wand Wielder arcana, etc. For most other combinations, it's not really worth it.


Are you wanting a second-level PC for a module, and then will retire the PC? Then Wizard/Magus would work fine.

But as others have pointed out, for a longer campaign it will become lackluster.

However, if I were the GM I would find dearly amusing a Spellblade Magus / Scrollmaster Wizard and be willing to invent house rules to make such a PC viable. Fight with a force dagger in one hand and a scroll in the other! How would that not be fun?

(Note: By RAW the scroll would best be used like a shield bashing light wooden shield, since somehow that does not degenerate with use the way a scroll used like a weapon or defensive shield does.)

Perhaps your GM can work out something if you want the class combination for role-play reasons that fit a character concept you care about.

Qadira

I don't think Wizard is a great dip for a Magus, but a Wizard 5/Magus 1 makes a good entry point for an Eldritch Knight. It's basically how you get an EK with Spell Combat.


DDogwood wrote:
I don't think Wizard is a great dip for a Magus, but a Wizard 5/Magus 1 makes a good entry point for an Eldritch Knight. It's basically how you get an EK with Spell Combat.

But you wouldn't be able to use much with spell combat, as they would need to be magus spells and not wizard spells, right?

-James

Qadira

james maissen wrote:
DDogwood wrote:
I don't think Wizard is a great dip for a Magus, but a Wizard 5/Magus 1 makes a good entry point for an Eldritch Knight. It's basically how you get an EK with Spell Combat.

But you wouldn't be able to use much with spell combat, as they would need to be magus spells and not wizard spells, right?

-James

No, but it's still an ability you don't get with a level of Fighter.

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