The APG, World Building, and You


Homebrew and House Rules

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Okay then... The Greeks used them for dropping clay pots filled with oil and a rag set on fire (read: Grecian Molotov Cocktail) onto marching enemies. Until they got discontinued thanks to enemy archers watching for them.


So, hey, just popping into this thread to mention something I thought of briefly:

Taking some ques from 4E, one of the reasons gods become incorporeal is because they're literally too much for the material world to support. The world and all that's in it was built by 20-ish HD creatures. They have surpassed that (some quite substantially), and thus have literally ascended beyond the ability of the material to support.

Number two - I don't know if I mentioned this already or not - but granting gods the benefits I was writing about some time ago (the "perfect" divine magic boons) in my insomnia thread.

Links may or may not be forthcoming in the near future, depending on schedule, free time, and head-space.

Sorry I've not been on this project for some time. Life, you know.

:/ :)


Oh, hey, linking Set's post on witch hexes 'cause, you know, it's useful here.


Okay, so actual quote time (instead of just a link above):

Set wrote:

So I was playing around with some Witch hexes to steal stuff;

Minor Hexes;
Steal a language, leaving the victim unable to speak or read or understand it, and allowing the witch to do so while the effect lasts.

Steal a spell that she has identified by name (assuming that the victim actually has that spell, otherwise the hex fails!), leaving the spellcaster unable to cast it, and the witch able to spontaneously convert a single spell of equal or higher level to cast the stolen spell one time during the duration of the curse.

Steal scales or hide, stripping away a few points of a target creatures natural armor bonus, and granting them to the witch for that short time.

Major Hexes;
Steal someone's voice, causing them to become mute for the duration, except when you want to put words in their mouth and make them say what you want them to say.

Steal someone's sight, rendering them blind, and also being able to scry from their sightless eyes for the duration.

Grand Hex;
Steal someone's entire face, causing them to become blind, deaf and mute, and, crucially, begin to suffocate unless someone pokes a hole in the smooth featureless membrane that now covers where they used to have a face. While the curse is in effect, the witch can change her own features to resemble the stolen face at will.

And the one that made me think 'ew;'

I Steal Your Sex (Su): The witch curses a living creature within 30 ft. to not only become impotent and infertile, but to lose it's primary sexual characteristics entirely for 24 hours. While this curse is in effect, the witch can manifest the stolen characteristics, and make use of them normally, even to the point of possibly siring a child on another with a stolen appendage, that will share the bloodline of the original victim, and not her own.

What awesome more reasons for witches to be loathed and hated.

Also, upon reflection, I could easily see most divine servants being variants on the psychic construct from the Green Ronin book, also being an outsider (augmented construct), many of which would be given a high enough charisma to also acquire the various possession abilities (which I'd probably take more from the 3.5 mechanics than the PF mechanics).

This would go a long way towards explaining the concepts of both specified "genius" spirits for people (each of which have natural innate personal talents; a belief, if I recall, in Rome at the time) and "guardian angel" tropes.

There would still also be angels as I've noted before, however.

Also, it's time for templates. The following races will exist, but they will exist as templates instead of base races themselves (applying the racial traits to whatever creature they are part of):

Hume: Aasimar (descended from a god-possessed), Dhampir or Fetchlings (descended from proto-gods [vampires and shades]), Duergar (deep underground magical byproduct), Ifrit/Tiefling (gestalt of the two for the template; efreet-descended), Samsaran (god-blessed/reincarnated by gods), Strix (magical byproduct), Vishkanya (magical byproduct)

Fey: Drow (magical byprodcut/underground byproduct), Merfolk (purposeful mutation), Suli (genie-descended; gestalts with other templates based on hume/fey heritage, as noted below), Wayangs (shadow-influenced byproduct)

Both: Changeling (from hags, naturally), Feral-child (lycanthrope descended, not a shifter) [Catfolk, Gripplis, Kitsune, Nagaji, Ratfolk, Tengu, Vanara], Genie-blooded (descended from genies) [Oread (dao), Sylph (djinn), Undine (water); a pure fey mother cannot survive an efreet's attentions (she dies from internal heat while pregnant) while humes get a special template as noted above]

These templates are not common, are not normal, and are not independent species... mostly. There may be, somewhere in the world, a "small" group that is just large enough to sustain a viable non-inbred population, but that's unlikely.

On that note, however, fey have to worry about that sort of thing less. As in, not at all. It doesn't affect them in the way it affects Humes. The children might be mutated somehow, sure, but so are all fey: inbreeding, to them, means things like elves giving birth to a gnome, a sprite, or drow, or something similar (which may, at some point, evolve into something else), not what it does to humes (problems with health and well-being of the children, physical defects, and the like).

Kind of squicky, personally, but then again it lends the fey both that sense of freedom and that sense of alien "other".

Also contemplating Half-Giants, among others.


Tacticslion wrote:


Another problem is differing cultures. Obviously martial arts developed very differently in Europe and Western-and-North Asia than in Eastern Asia, and India. Cavaliers break away from the Eastern concepts, I think, though this might just be my current "view" of them. Magical presumptions, too, are different: oracles are very similar to ancient Grecian...

This is not really an issue. The cultures of the real world are irrelevant to your game world. Your history is utterly independent of real-world history.


Arg, okay, so it's been too long since I've been working on this. I can tell. Here is an earlier note I made about some creatures:

Tacticslion wrote:

Also a nifty thought I'd had (I forgot to put it in before, and it's different enough that I figured I'd place it here below) is the idea of genies.

First, to clarify, despite how we'd normally think of it, there are deserts in the fey. Those link up to the ones on the material. There is every kind of place in the fey (and shadow) as there is in the material.

Second, ifrit: these are the descendants of the genies. Specifically, ifrits have access to sorcery (unlike anyone other than kobolds), but they all have a twofold bloodline, and it's always both elemental fire bloodline and wishcrafter. (Kobold sorcerers, on the other hand always have a double bloodline of the dragon and kobold-trapster bloodlines).

I'm wondering how to tie the others in, but I'm thinking that oreads can only pursue their variant of the summoner; I'm just uncertain of the last two. Actually: since sorcerous bloodlines are now a tack-on to summoning, that's how I'm going to do it. A elemental-descent summoner (sorcerer) is going to slowly become more like the patron that it continues to summon a fragment of. The eidelon is only a pale reflection of the true spirit, thus explaining the strange evolutions it gains through the chaotic magic.

Historically this works very well: the gnomes sought out the powers of the summoner and through abusing that eventually became the "summonees" (aka genies). This is where sorcery came from. Kobolds, then, learned sorcery at the feet of the genies. Other races lack the innate gift for sorcery (but can still pursue summoning).

Also three more racial things worth noting:
1) Aasimar is now a template that can by applied to any hume or half-hume race. They are descendants of angels.

2) Dhampir is also now a template that can be applied to any hume or half-hume race. They are descendants of nascent or failed gods (the vampires).

3) Tieflings are now a template that can be applied to any fey or half-fey race (including the elemental ones). They are the descendants of those fey corrupted by magic instead of blending with nature or reincarnating normally.

Especially with posts like this and the notes above, I've got some thinking to do. What do you guys think? My earlier ideas have some hefty merit, and I can definitely see those fitting with what I want. The later idea that I posted hastily isn't that bad, actually, and doesn't completely conflict, but sometimes conflicts. So I'm curious about that.

Also, I'm thinking of bringing in the elemental Genasi as templates. Not sure how, yet, though.


Zhayne wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:


Another problem is differing cultures. Obviously martial arts developed very differently in Europe and Western-and-North Asia than in Eastern Asia, and India. Cavaliers break away from the Eastern concepts, I think, though this might just be my current "view" of them. Magical presumptions, too, are different: oracles are very similar to ancient Grecian...
This is not really an issue. The cultures of the real world are irrelevant to your game world. Your history is utterly independent of real-world history.

This is true, but I'm also trying to go for a feel. Nonetheless, you have a valid point. :)

Silver Crusade

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DOT'D :)


I've been looking around and am taking a page from some house rules mentioned elsewhere.

Stealing a page from this thread (and modifying it according to the one it mentioned)...

Not really one person, but copied from Evil Lincoln and Edited according to Ashiel's earlier post referenced by EL wrote:

Type................................Automatic Bonus

Attacks and Damage .........+1 enhancement bonus per 3 levels (max +5)
Saving Throws...................+1 enhancement bonus per 3 levels (max +5)
Armor...............................+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5 [stacks with equipped base value])
Shield...............................+1 enhancement bonus per 4 levels (max +5 [stacks with equipped base value])
Physical Ability Scores.......+2 to any one per 3 levels (max +6)
Mental Ability Scores ........+2 to any one per 3 levels (max +6)

So I'm going to tweak these more later, however, the basics are here now. The idea is that magic so saturates the world that the more powerful you get, the more powerful you are innately.

Relevant quotes one and two:

Ashiel wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
What do you think?

It's 5:53am and I've not been to bed, so maybe I've just been up too long to be thinking clearly, but...

Wouldn't it be simpler to just give everyone a bonus to the staples equal to level/3 for PC classes and level/6 for NPC classes/racial-HD and call it a day; and then use magic items to fill out the party's "special abilities". It would be way simpler, and wouldn't require picking new abilities or juggling archtype stuff.

EDIT: Basically poor man's vow of poverty? At 3rd level you'd get a +1 enhancement bonus to most everything (attack and damage, armor, natural armor, deflection, saving throws, and ability scores). Then increase the bonus by +1 again at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level.

Basically by 18th level you hit +6 in everything.

EDIT: to be clear, these aren't definitely in, but I'm strongly considering them.


i like that the inate bonuses would free up magic item slots for the interesting or custom options.


I'm doing something similar with magic items in my game. Here's what I know...

You need a new wealth by level table. Just subtract out the costs of the bonuses from the regular table.

Be a little more generous at levels 1-2, and then scale it back. Starting gold doesn't go far.

Be precise about what magic items and spells stack. If I get an enhancement bonus to stats, can I cast bull's strength?.


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I'm curious about the gods. How do they grant spells to worshippers?

Do they derive a benefit from having worshippers?

Do they take an active hand in world events?


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It seems like a lawfully aligned wizardry would spawn some sort of guild or trade association. If they're all lawful, seems they would cooperate.

What plans along those lines, if any?


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

I'm curious about the gods. How do they grant spells to worshippers?

Do they derive a benefit from having worshippers?

Do they take an active hand in world events?

1) By being themselves/creating a resonance with/pouring divine power into a specific, chosen vessel, aka the Oracle in question (who, incidentally, also functions as a 3.5 Favored Soul with special weapon boons and later wings, after they're already immortal by HD caps). This is revokable, as they see/sense everything through their divine vessel, as well as their sacred/dedicated places.

Prayers are heard by way of their ethereal angelic spirits, their chosen oracles, or their holy sites.

2) Yes... sort of. They require worship to sustain their power... to a point. Vague, I know. First and above all, the following does not apply to the "Nine" or the "Three" (the Creators, Corrupters, Destroyers, or Cursed gods), nor does this apply to the Fey, but rather the hume gods.

The more (hume) worshipers they have, the more head-space/thought/spiritual elements they take up, and the more spirits come to them when they die. The more spirits they have, the more political power they hold in the spirit world, thus the more sway compared to other gods. This is the most "direct" benefit.

They also generate divine reality-altering power by worship. While they could exist without it, their direct divine power wanes over time, eventually (in theory) leaving them a minor spirit. HOWEVER, if they have enough souls in the spirit realm with them, that worship continues, even if they're forgotten by the world. Thus, they don't need to worry about continuing to gain worshipers, and sustain themselves off the reverence of the souls that are in their paradises. This is kind of a secondary benefit.

There are some gods that keep their worshipers to themselves, some that organize themselves into a pantheons (spreading the worship around, kind of like a diversified portfolio) - either broad and inclusive or tight - and some that are, in fact, forgotten. Of the six hundred-ish gods that have existed throughout all of hume history (10,000 years or so) none have been completely reduced to naught. It's a theory only.

In any event, this is one reason gods have symbols (elements of common consciousness that resonate across all sentient minds), favored weapons (representing a preferred means of assault), and portfolios (representing a specific set of interests) within their respective alignments (generally leaning toward law and good).

These elements aren't just for show, they're there to generate that sense of understanding - to create a connection for mortal minds to understand and embrace the deity in question. A way for a mortal to connect with a being that otherwise is too great for them to truly comprehend.

Effectively, a god gains power and sustenance by constant use of an effect similar to the 3.0 Distilled Joy spell {Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 96} to create Ambrosia (which they then consume).

However, lest it seem that gods are some sort of "super-parasite": rest assured, they are not.

In exchange for worship, gods utilize their power to generate divine "cities" - effectively using a combination of the old 3.0 Genesis spell {manual of the planes} (combined with elements of PF's own Create Greater Demiplane) and a combination of the 3.5 Celestial Fortress spell {Champions of Valor, page 53} with Magnificent Mansion (combined with a Permanency-like effect, naturally) and a variant combination of Shade/Simulacrum spells. This creates a paradise for each spirit (incidentally generating the Ambrosia gods are sustained by, via the Distilled Joy effect). Now, while I mention Shade and Simulacrum, it's a little misleading. Both of those are illusory. The gods don't give out gifts of fake people to their loyal worshipers, but recall that Shades is mostly real, and simulacrum is based off of a physical substance? The idea is that they take the barest fragment of a given creature's essence or soul and create a "physical" incorporeal spiritual duplicate that holds resonance with the original creature... a kind of spirit idol or avatar. Thus, if a person is in their own personal paradise, they can also be in someone else's own personal paradise, allowing lovers who would have otherwise incompatible eternal paradises, for example, have each other in paradise anyway.

The idol and "core" are both aware, are themselves, and make free willed decisions based off of their own free wills; there is no duplicity going on, although a non-god spirit might not be able to properly process everything (especially if raised later, leading to strange, nearly conflicting and oft-rejected memories of the afterlife). However, this allows everyone to have it almost any way they desire.

The entry to a personal paradise is within the fortress/mansion.

Anyway, a god manages all of this - and, regardless of their intelligence, can manage all of this without being distracted, having difficulty, or otherwise suffering any ill effect. You know. Divinity stuff.

That said, it does tend to keep a god busy.

Plus...

3) Yes... sort of.

Their "active hand" effectively means answering prayers, sending their (ethereal) agents (generally to possess creatures, manipulate creatures, or be channeled by creatures; or as information sources), or, more importantly, directly manipulating the minds and spirits of other creatures... but with subtlety. This isn't (usually) mind-control. This is usually (non-compulsory) suggestions in the sleep such as dreams, waking visions, sudden thoughts or ideas, or the like.

Finally, and perhaps most notably for PCs, they are the source of all divine power. Thus they empower those who resonate with them - who's faith is powerful enough, and alignments and goals mesh enough - to create a divine resonance and be blessed by the god(s) (itself/themselves). A god can choose to withdraw this power, but it generally comes spontaneously.

Here's an important thing to understand about gods. They have stats, yes, and ability scores, and skill ranks, and the like. But. They are truly, fundamentally beyond mortals. Upon ascension, they literally become other. Their everything undergoes an apotheosis with "them", the way they understand, comprehend, analyze, and process information changes radically. Reality reacts to their will in a way that it doesn't to "common" mortals.

A kind of simple understanding is that of a manifested ghost (a rare "non-god" hume spirit, and effectively what a god would "degrade" to if something should ever happen to them; there are differences, but that's a whole other very long discussion). A ghost can manifest into reality, corrode at a touch, or terrify with a glance. This is their ability to impose their will upon reality. Gods are kind of like this... but more.

However, they usually choose their servants to act for them. Despite being above and beyond any mortal (even any possibility of mortality), they are still ultimately finite, if incredibly awesome (in the more classical sense of the term).

There's more, but I'm stopping here for now. It is 2:15 AM, after all. :)


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

It seems like a lawfully aligned wizardry would spawn some sort of guild or trade association. If they're all lawful, seems they would cooperate.

What plans along those lines, if any?

That's pretty much exactly it.

There are a large number of esoteric orders; members of a given order cooperate within a given order, and orders cooperate with each other.

Do not confuse lawful with "complete agreement", however.

Wizardry may be lawful, but the magic wizardry wields is not - and wizards do not have to be either, despite the strong tendency towards that direction.

(Non-lawful wizards are often pretty unhappy, because they are effectively forcing their mind to follow patterns that they, as individuals, are not really meant for. Like a woman who's natural talents are in piano, but she's forced to be a seamstress because of family tradition: miserable, but her talents at careful finger control work for both, so she thinks she's got to do the thing she's miserable at because, you know, she's good at it. Or she's obsessed. Or something. There are always exceptions to the rules, of course, and a given individual chooses their outlook. Tendencies, however...)

Magic is a highly corruptive (if necessary) force (due to the Balor bound within the sun, you know).

This leads to all sorts of interesting side-effects, such as therianthrope mentioned above, but also a slight tendency toward insanity or other mental problems. Paranoia, politics, and (very structured) betrayal along those lines. Manias, phobias, even fetishes (or more extreme versions thereof) are generated within the "structured" ranks of "cooperative" wizardry.

And, of course, there's always the chance that another wizard really does go off the deep end, rare as it is.

As a reminder, since magic tends toward chaotic or evil, and wizardry (the codices that structure magic into useful spells) tend toward lawful, wizardry tends toward lawful evil.

Take a look at Hell, and remind me how smoothly the politics go there again? :)

Joking aside, and even the more sinister aspects of magic aside, Wizards don't all get along. Individuals, regardless of alignment, have personality clashes, competing theories, and disagreements of all sorts. These personal issues can spill over into greater issues. Plus you're looking at the very real hume nature to compete and to presume that your way is best. Thus water-based necromancer alchemists might strongly disagree with earth-based necromancer alchemists, for example, though they would both tend to shun that creepy summoner over there, regardless of his tendencies. That guy's just a freak, man. Of course, all wizards are superior to the mundanes...

Also, I'm loving the image, in my head, of water-based necromancers alchemists arguing with earth-based necromancer alchemists. I mean really. That's just cool.

So while; in a large, general sort of way; you can say that wizards of all stripes "cooperate" (which is true) you can't say that all wizards cooperate with fellow wizards; or even that all guilds, colleges, or cabals cooperate with fellow guilds, colleges, or cabals.

It might be stupid, or petty, but if a guild hates another, they might go to extreme measures to avoid trading with them, trading with a more distant or less capable guild (that will likely eventually trade with the hated guild, or a guild that will trade with the hated guild). But that's just hume nature. :)


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

I'm doing something similar with magic items in my game. Here's what I know...

You need a new wealth by level table. Just subtract out the costs of the bonuses from the regular table.

Be a little more generous at levels 1-2, and then scale it back. Starting gold doesn't go far.

Be precise about what magic items and spells stack. If I get an enhancement bonus to stats, can I cast bull's strength?.

This would generally be true, however I'm thinking that players would need to invest their "excess" funds elsewhere in this campaign. They have guild dues, lifestyle payments to make, bribes, buildings, social status, parties to throw or attend (and special clothes for these), charities to donate to, and more.

Being wealthy in this setting comes with its own list of obligations... which you can pay to have taken care of for you.

I mean, unless a PC wants to sit back and be a miser and miserable, but wealthy. Then, you know, they could. It would suck for them, but they could do it.

Basically, I've got more money-sinks in this game than in others.

Still, you have a good point. :)


Mikaze wrote:
DOT'D :)

It's worth noting, I'm kind of nerding out here. :D


Also, though I'm not planning on using it, I'm keeping an eye on this. Especially if I end up doing a Pbp, I'll likely adapt a lighter version of the rules just for simplicity sake.


Tacticslion wrote:


2) Yes... sort of. They require worship to sustain their power... to a point. Vague, I know. First and above all, the following does not apply to the "Nine" or the "Three" (the Creators, Corrupters, Destroyers, or Cursed gods), nor does this apply to the Fey, but rather the hume gods.

The more (hume) worshipers they have, the more head-space/thought/spiritual elements they take up, and the more spirits come to them when they die. The more spirits they have, the more political power they hold in the spirit world, thus the more sway compared to other gods. This is the most "direct" benefit.

This implies that oracles are being asked to either recruit more followers, or destroy the temples and followers of rival gods. Religious warfare would be common, wouldn't it?

Makes for an exciting setting, I just want to make sure that the implications all work.


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:


2) Yes... sort of. They require worship to sustain their power... to a point. Vague, I know. First and above all, the following does not apply to the "Nine" or the "Three" (the Creators, Corrupters, Destroyers, or Cursed gods), nor does this apply to the Fey, but rather the hume gods.

The more (hume) worshipers they have, the more head-space/thought/spiritual elements they take up, and the more spirits come to them when they die. The more spirits they have, the more political power they hold in the spirit world, thus the more sway compared to other gods. This is the most "direct" benefit.

This implies that oracles are being asked to either recruit more followers, or destroy the temples and followers of rival gods. Religious warfare would be common, wouldn't it?

Makes for an exciting setting, I just want to make sure that the implications all work.

... no, not really.

Does it happen? Yes.

But it's usually more of a hume-led thing instead of a divinely mandated thing.

Here's the thing: most gods can generate plenty of ambrosia without being the exclusive deity in an area (though this isn't absolute).

Further, add to the fact that the majority of gods are both lawful and good. This doesn't mean they get along, but this does dampen religious wars led by oracles.

Your implication is that a god (usually lawful good), due to needing stuff to survive, would stoop to acts such as actively harming the worshipers of a "rival" lawful good deity. However, such a conclusion ignores the lessons learned, implications, and personal essence crafted during the Divine Journey the deity in question has followed over the last 1,000 years (to ascend; more than that, if they're older). Would some gods do so? Sure, probably. But it's a bit more complicated than it would seem on the surface.

To clarify the nature of the (typical) Divine Journey:

A typical Divine Journey wrote:

1) Achieve 5-6 HD as a mortal

2) Achieve Nascent Immortality (usually vamparism)
--> this strips a creature of the moral/ethical center (they become chaotic and evil), but not of their mind or, more importantly, will. This does not force them to behave evilly, though (even though they now need blood to survive*). Rather, suddenly they lack a moral or ethical "center". They are entirely "free" from constraints.
--> MAJOR FAILURE POINT ONE: nascent immortals usually stop here, for (I think) obvious reasons: it's comfortable, they're powerful, and they can do whatever they want. Also, heroes (especially divine servants**) eventually come and destroy them.
--> THE TRIAL: "the trial" they must overcome at this stage is mastering themselves, their hunger, cravings, needs, and rebuilding - recreating from the ground up - their own ethical and moral center. In other words, they have to train themselves how to no longer be chaotic evil.
3) Achieve 11-12 HD as a nascent immortal
4) Achieve Immortality (usually lichdom)
--> the phylactery created is one that takes their personal ethos, moral code, and their interests and seals them with proto-divine blood inside a little box along with all of the soul-stuff they've gathered over the years; this process once again strips them of their moral center, as they've literally taken their soul, stripped it out of themselves, and placed that in a box; but their phylactery actually helps this time (acting as a phylactery of faithfulness) to aid them in rebuilding it again.
--> MAJOR FAILURE POINT TWO: immortals usually stop here, for (I think) again, obvious reasons: it's comfortable, they're powerful, and they are freed for the first time in centuries from their self-inflicted moral code. Also, heroes (especially divine servants**) eventually come and destroy them. Also, the process tends to leave them slightly unhinged, as it's difficult for a body used to the needs of the flesh (such as feasting on blood) slowly learn that they don't need to eat anymore, sleep anymore, drink anymore, or do anything they used to. The body slowly decays from it's nascent immortal form to nothing but bones***. Also, they'd best hope their phylactery is based on a good moral code instead of an evil one - that they "got it right". Otherwise, they cannot progress beyond this stage.
--> THE TRIAL: "the trial" they must overcome at this stage is mastering their self-determined portfolio, and, most importantly, living up to their own ideal - once again recreating their own moral center. In other words, they have to train themselves how to no longer be evil. Again. They also learn how to think as an immortal, now, as their patience is forcibly expanded beyond its normal limits and they cease caring about the physical existence.
5) Achieve 21st-24th level as an immortal
6) Achieve Divinity
--> the final acts include the complete dissolution of the phylactery and their physical form into spiritual essence, effectively destroying their body that they've been so long in keeping alive and their phylactery which has been so important to protect until now. Simultaneously. You can understand why most don't manage to go this far. Also, you can't be evil.
--> MAJOR FAILURE POINT THREE: I mean, really, the creature by this point is inhume, immortal, extremely powerful, has struggled to keep their physical body alive for the last 1,000 years, and is expected to destroy themselves utterly. Hm, what could the failure point be?
--> THE TRIAL: "the trial" they have to overcome at this stage is willingly destroying themselves and their guarantee at resurrection. I mean... seriously. That's pretty daggum huge.
7) Gain angel and archons and start constructing your personal heaven

* ON NEEDING BLOOD TO SURVIVE: this stage is usually handled successfully - if it's handled successfully - by creating a blood cult. Instead of forcing it from people they donate willingly. A nascent immortal needs to walk the line very carefully, however, lest they (accidentally or purposefully) give in to their cravings and natures and needs to become a monster. Why blood? Because it's the transferable element from one of the Hume Systems (Respitory, nervous, immune, digestive, circulatory, and maybe one or two more? I don't recall), each of which has a spiritual residue that goes along with the physical element.
** Whether they know it or not.
*** The deity probably no longer looks at themselves in a mirror any more. Kind of a habit you get into when you're a vampire, you know? In any event, while the body begins to rot and disintegrate to naught but bones, during this stage deities create a kind of idealized version of themselves - what they think they look like. This kind of stuff is important, as it informs their ultimate appearance after their last physical remnant dissolves. Even if they do look into a mirror, they usually ignore what is seen physically. Think of an obese guy who sees himself as an adonis... and who uses that vision to encourage himself to work out until it becomes a reality.

The fact that there is a "typical" divine journey doesn't mean that all gods are alike. In fact, in the same way there's a typical Hero's Journey, there's a typical Divine Journey. The heroes (and the deities) aren't all the same on the other side, however.

The fact that they've been stripped of their innate moral center twice and had to rebuild it, though... the fact that they were evil, yet still, willfully, followed a lawful and/or good path, regardless of themselves, their own wants, own needs, and so on... yeah, no, the gods aren't prone to corruption. They've faced their demons and won. Three times (mortal, nascent immortal, and immortal). That's not to say a deity couldn't become evil (which might make the basis of an interesting setting event) but they're extremely resistant to such things.

Most of the time, by the time they've achieved divinity, they're used to operating subtly, without showing their direct hand of involvement. Many have potent magical ability that allows them to remain hidden, imitate dreams, or so on. By the point of ascension, they've likely got tremendous loads of myths and legends swirling about themselves already, and worshipers besides. If they have access to the proper magic, they could even be collecting the souls of their followers and worshipers after death in preparation for their ascension (although failed or corrupted immortals wouldn't need those, and thus there is a trade in jarred souls...).

In any event. By the time a deity successfully ascends, they're no longer prone to cruelty, pettiness, or corruption from the needs of the flesh (or spirit, for that matter).

The Fey "gods" are just extremely powerful forces with high hit dice. They're called "Eldest" (because I liked that term and am shamelessly stealing it unless someone comes up with a better name).


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
This implies that oracles are being asked to either recruit more followers, or destroy the temples and followers of rival gods. Religious warfare would be common, wouldn't it?

I was a little unclear. Sorry. Got too wrapped up in explaining things.

1) Yes, they are asked to recruit more followers... but that's hardly their primary task. There are plenty of priests for that. Instead Oracles are vessels for divine power and will.

2) The only "temples" and "gods" the deities seek to destroy are the (usually evil) nascent immortals or immortals. As noted above, these creatures are generally evil. Some rare few might avoid evil. But immortals (liches) can be created even if someone is evil, so it's not like achieving that state ensures the creature is on the path to divinity or even that they overcame their personal demons. It just means they're powerful.

Hope that clears some things up.

Also, two more things.

* The biggest wars come from country-to-country rather than from divinity-to-divinity. There are divine conflicts. Occasionally, these even turn violent. But it's much more likely that national (or other locality) pride becomes potent enough to turn to violence more than divine elements. Divine conflict generally is more subtle than this.

* The biggest "religious" wars come from conflict between Eldest and Deities and Titans and the like.

Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
Makes for an exciting setting, I just want to make sure that the implications all work.

I wanted to address this, especially: THANKS! I really appreciate that you want it to work.

One of the things to keep in mind, however, is that this world tends to be "settled" in the way ancient Rome was. On the peripheral of the empire or some of the more remote areas, there is wild country, rife for adventure, and all sorts of strange and terrible events occur. Sometimes this spills over into civilization. Rarely, heavily settled and fortified places come under problems.

All of those are places for Adventurers to go do their thing. But there is also a lot of politics, maneuvering, and so on in this - at least as I'm currently envisioning it.

Now, beyond the "settled" lands of "civilization", well... there's substantially more wild and ancient places in the world, aren't there. There's also the fey, those crazy witches, and the raw corrupting force of magic itself.

There's the First World/Feywild, the Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell, The Spirit Realm/Ethereal, the Astral, the Chaos (and its attendant elemental planes), and, of course, the material, and all the myriad of locations within those.

The setting I'm crafting, though, focuses on one part of all that. The Hume inhabited regions of one area of the material world.

So, yeah, there's a lot of dynamic changing stuff going on, but little direct divine conflict on the material in the setting as crafted.


Oh, one more important note to make.

I'm not just making this setting for me.

Thus, if you like the idea of having lots of divine conflict between lawful good very wise deities who've overcome their own desires for most anything on a personal level? Go for it.

Similarly, one of the reasons I've described their "heavens" in game terms is because, well, they can be destroyed. The vast preponderance of creatures could not, it's true. But there is that possibility in game terms.

A few Disjunction spells or even a Spell Sunder by a bitter ethereal lich, for example, and a given heaven could be in serious trouble.

A deity is powerful enough, however, that this generally doesn't happen except for suicide runs.

Bitter immortals who've hidden their phylactery well enough, however, so that even the gods might not know where it is... well. Even if they're not able to destroy the god, they might be able to destroy or harm its followers, and, if they're lucky, perhaps even weaken them, maybe even permanently, if the god is old enough and forgotten and not part of (or made themselves unpopular within) a given pantheon.

And, of course, everything that I've described is a general tendency, not an absolute in all cases. With roughly 600 gods, and roughly 60,000 immortals (mostly liches) and nascent immortals (mostly vampires) throughout history... well... you've got a lot of room for designing unique creatures.

And, of course, the more gods there are, the more than number of increase slows down...


Oh, hey, just coming up with some visions of heaven(s).

EDIT: By "coming up with" what I really meant was "writing down for the first time". The idea has been there for a long time. :)

Imagine celestial fortress-mansions. An entire city of them.

Now, surround that entire thing on all sides with prismatic walls layered with walls of force. Consecrate Spell and Empower Spell metamagic feats apply.

Make a hole or three, a gate (or several), if you will. Within that gate, place a Curtain of Light (or 20) {Book of Exalted Deeds pg 96; consecrate and empowered as well; only deals damage to evil creatures, 6 damage within 40 feet, 12 damage within 20 feet, and 32 damage if you pass through}.

Again, individual heavens vary, but this brilliant, prismatic vision is one of them, and one of the most secure methods (requiring lots of power to overcome). Also, it looks really cool. :D


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No, you've got it. My question was, why don't gods go after each other directly, or by proxy?

And you've got an answer.


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

No, you've got it. My question was, why don't gods go after each other directly, or by proxy?

And you've got an answer.

Sweet!

I, personally, prefer self-consistent worlds, so I'm not unhappy that you pointed that out, but I was hoping to answer it! :)


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This gives you a dynamic setting, where the vampires and liches of the world have a reason to go after the faithful; it's their best defense.

The really motivated might even try to attract worshippers/slaves of their own, to serve as a defense, and to deny resources to the opposition.

And there's a possibility of enlightened villains, pointing out the the PCs that they are doing the work of the gods, which basically preserves a status quo the players do not benefit from greatly.


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
The really motivated might even try to attract worshippers/slaves of their own, to serve as a defense, and to deny resources to the opposition.

In fact, this is exactly what they have to do, if they plan on ever ascending to divinity one day. It is these guys - those who attract worshipers of their own - who are responsible for the blood cults that still spring up from time to time.

The interesting thing is that while some of these blood cults are monstrous, of course (as would be expected), some are actually benevolent - they simply worship a master who needs blood to continue.

Further muddying the waters around this area (and making these blood cults darker) is the fact that all to often even the good blood cults become corrupt and depraved over time as their master does, or if they don't become depraved and corrupt but their master does, it ends in the death of them all. And then is the rare few who become depraved and corrupt even as their master does not... which puts the master in a tremendously awkward and dangerous position.

In any event, after lichdom, the master no longer has need of blood, so the blood cult side of things generally fades out over time, becoming more or less a folk belief in some super-spirit, guardian, or god of some sort (or, if the lich follows the evil train, a devil or monster of some kind, ending their path to divinity).

At that point, the folk religion slowly becomes true (or proves false as the lich falls to corruption and doesn't recover) and, upon success, eventually the lich transcends the physical entirely to become a god.


Allow me to now present to you the various Divine Journeys of Gabriel of Olgana.
Nothing written about below - Olgana, Gabriel, Sludge, Tonnis, Sheltered Harbor, or anything other named thing - are actually presumed to exist in the campaign setting. I'm just creating something whole-cloth to show the basic idea of things. Also, I'm not too concerned with all the game statistics. I put them there, for the curious, but really it's not that big a deal for this mock-up, which is really more just a proof of concept than anything else. So, in other words, don't worry about the exact stats, gear, or other things.

Divine Journey of Gabriel the Humble One, Saint of Olgana
LG Human Oracle

1st level:

Ability Scores
STR 10
CON 14 (+2)
DEX 10
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 13 (+1)
CHA 18 (+4)

Saves: +4 fortitude, +2 reflex, +3 will
Attack: (+0 base) +0 snag net

Specials
- Aura (lawful, good): Gabriel reads as an outsider of his hit dice
- Channel Energy [3+CHA mod] (1d6)
- Curse: Lame (speed permanently reduced by 10; never reduced due to encumbrance) (immune to fatigue; never slowed by armor; immune to exhaustion)
- Domain: Community (Home)
* - * Binding Ties [3+WIS/day] (as a standard action, you can touch an ally and remove one condition from that ally, and temporarily transfer it to yourself for a number of rounds equal to your level at which point it reverts; it can be ended at any time while transferred as normal; the ally is immune to that condition during this time)
- Mystery: Nature
* - * Revelations: Spirit of Nature (whenever you are reduced to negative hit points in a natural setting, you automatically stabilize)

Skills (4+INT+1): craft (nets) +5, diplomacy +10, heal +5, knowledge (nature +6), profession (fisherman) +5, sense motive +5, survival +1 (+3 to find food and water)
Languages: Olganan, Marian

Feats: human bonus (Endurance), first level (Additional Traits)
Proficient: all simple weapons, the snag net, light and medium armors, and shields (except tower shields)
Traits: Altruistic Diplomat (+2 diplomacy), Avid Reader (take 10, knowledge (nature), Birthmark (a specific birthmark can be used in place of a holy symbol), Child of Nature (+2 survival to find food and water, +1 knowledge (nature))

Spells: (if an oracle can cast any other spell of a given level per day, they can also cast their domain or mystery spell of that level one additional time per day)
- Orisons (at will): Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Enhanced Diplomacy, Mending
- 1st (4+1d/day): Bless, Charm Animal; Abstemiousness, Cure Light Wounds, Read Weather
- 2nd (-/day): Barkskin, Calm Emotions
- 3rd (-/day): Create Food and Water, Speak with Plants
- 4th (-/day): Grove of Respite, Imbue with Spell Ability
- 5th (-/day): Awaken, Telepathic Bond
- 6th (-/day): Heroes' Feast, Stone Tell
- 7th (-/day): Creeping Doom, Refuge
- 8th (-/day): Animal Shapes, Mass Cure Critical Wounds
- 9th (-/day): Miracle, World Wave

His entire life, Gabriel was raised to endure. And endure he did, through many trials and hardships, both growing up and being an adult. But always, he sought a more humble life than he was allowed to lead.

Gabriel was the kind and humble son of local fisherfolk, raised to be a fisherfolk like his parents, in the village of Sheltered Bay. But unlike the rest of his village, Gabriel was always special, and everyone knew it. The mark on his hand that looked exactly like the mark of Tonnis the Divine (recently officially canonized in Tyre, capital of Olgana, though really worshiped for years in the outer provinces) was more than enough evidence of that, as was his clubbed foot (oft thought of as the mark of Tonnis' favor). Yet, despite all the attention Gabriel received, he never reveled or basked in it. Instead, he always sought to use the various gifts he was given to secretly help others. Inevitably, however, he was found out - he was never particularly good at sneaking, and was too darn honest to lie when he was pointed out as the benefactor. Still, through calm reasoning and careful discourse, Gabriel managed to give away most of the gifts granted him by the community, praying the desired blessing over people and sending them on their way, only to turn around and deliver the food, clothing, or other articles to some other destitute or needy soul.

Gabriel worked to fit in with his community throughout his young life, his parents shielding him from the majority of attention and attempting to allow him to lead a normal, if difficult childhood: a life of stillness and struggle, patience and constant toil, a life spent finding, building, repairing, and struggling against nature. (These lessons were something Gabriel would later be incredibly thankful for.) But this protected life could not last forever, not for one marked as Gabriel was.

Due to his leg, Gabriel was never able to go hunting with the other boys, or even to travel far. He took to reading avidly to learn about all the places he'd never seen. Always, he was fascinated by the descriptions of the wild places, the harsh wilderness, that he longed to go to.

The day he performed his first miracle was the day Gabriel's quiet life shattered forever.

Struggling with some knot-work, Gabriel prayed (as he often did) to Tonnis, when, suddenly, he surged with divine power and the nets and ropes simply joined, like they were never severed in the first place. Shocked, Gabriel rejoiced, as did other fisherfolk. But something else had witnessed it, too.

A local malicious water fey spirit (himself born with strange feet) who'd been spying on the town for mischief, noticed his sudden miracle. Deciding to test the will of the newly chosen servant of the gods. A minor horde of giant water vermin unlike any the town had ever seen began swarming the docks and boats where Gabriel was, assaulting the fisherfolk there, and Gabriel. Gabriel used his barbed net (freshly fixed) to collect the enraged sea creatures and still them, letting other fisherfolk bludgeon them to death. Though individually weak, there were many, too many, and the fisherfolk were forced to retreat as they became gravely injured.

Gabriel then performed his second miracle, healing people by touch. The tide turned against the invading creatures, and Gabriel even summoned a brilliant wave of healing over his people, allowing a final push to destroy or drive off the remaining invaders. But Gabriel's father was not in the wave of healing Gabriel had given, and was in the front line. Soon, he died from the maddened bites of a horde of crazed crustaceans. Gabriel mourned his father, as the fey spirit, Sludge, oozed with hatred that his plan had been foiled, and the people of the town rejoiced over Gabriel's power.

Against his will, Gabriel's fame spread like wildfire. Soon people were coming to him for advice, blessings, and insight from around the region, often overwhelming the poor young man. He would retreat during times he felt too overwhelmed, by boat, sailing into the bay or even the wild seas beyond, though never too far from shore. These times would give him comfort and rest, allowing him to see the whole of his community. There he would contemplate what he could do for them, eventually returning to aid in ways that he could.

During one of his times of solitude, however, he was assaulted by a crab the size of a dog; Gabriel was shocked at the horrid spirit goading it on. Using his net and fishing dagger, the battle was fierce. Though ultimately victorious, Gabriel was barely awake. It was then the fey - who'd sent the crab - struck, cursing at Gabriel and throwing a dart into his chest, causing the young man to fall into the sea. Before the mite could kill him, however, a pod of dolphins chased the miserable creature off, and brought Gabriel's body (and boat) to land. Quite some time later, a hunting party - led by some dogs - found Gabriel and returned him to civilization, marveling that he hadn't bled out and died.

Upon his recovery, Gabriel began reading all he could about fey spirits like Sludge. Learning of mites and their connections to the vermin of the world, he began making preparations... and friends. Walking the wild places, Gabriel made connections and allies with the benevolent (or at least not actively malicious) spirits.

Infuriated that the boy hadn't died, Sludge began calling on his own fey allies, gathering a horde of vermin from both land and sea, and cruel pranksters from both.

The long, slow war between the two began. A series of ever-escalating skirmishes sent by Sludge besieged the town. Even though Gabriel quickly became far more powerful than Sludge, the mite had many mighty allies and was cruelly cunning... and desperate. Eventually making dark bargains for terrible power, and bringing forth hordes of terrible creatures and vile spirits like a blight upon the tiny village of Sheltered Bay.

But Gabriel's patience and endurance slowly began to win, beating back the minions of Sludge. By winning the hearts of the people, inspiring and encouraging, and healing and strengthening, Gabriel carried Sheltered Bay through the dark times; even making lasting bargains with many of the very same spirits that Sludge had sent against them.

In the end, Gabriel, knowing that Sludge would never stop, took a terrible risk. Unable to swim well in the first place, he made himself a prime target and sailed alone into the deep water Sludge kept himself in, fishing in two ways at once. He was ready when sludge struck, however, having prepared for the battle. Though it was great and terrible, Gabriel won and survived, successfully killing Sludge with the barbs made from the strange metal given to him by a local witch. His boat destroyed, and having never been a strong swimmer, Gabriel, content that he'd done the will of Tonnis, he struggled, as he knew he should struggle, to get back to shore, but it was too far, even for him. And so, with blackness closing in, a prayer passed from his lips as bubbles in the dark sea.

The last he saw with his wavering vision in the salty waves was a beautiful mermaid, coming to him...

5th level:

Ability Scores
STR 10
CON 14 (+2)
DEX 10
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 18 (+4)

Saves: +6 fortitude, +0 reflex, +6 will
Attack: (+3 base) +3 snag net, +3 dagger
AC: 18 (chain shirt)
Hit points: 32

Specials
- Aura (lawful, good): Gabriel reads as an outsider of his hit dice
- Channel Energy [3+CHA mod] (3d6)
- Curse: Lame (speed permanently reduced by 10; never reduced due to encumbrance; immune to fatigue)
- Domain: Community (Home)
* - * Binding Ties [3+WIS/day] (as a standard action, you can touch an ally and remove one condition from that ally, and temporarily transfer it to yourself for a number of rounds equal to your level at which point it reverts; it can be ended at any time while transferred as normal; the ally is immune to that condition during this time)
- Mystery: Nature
* - * Revelations: Spirit of Nature (whenever you are reduced to negative hit points in a natural setting, you automatically stabilize); Nature's Whispers (add CHA instead of DEX to AC and CMD)

Skills (4+INT+1): craft (nets) +5, diplomacy +10, heal +6, knowledge (nature +6), profession (fisherman) +6, sense motive +6, survival +2 (+3 to find food and water)
Languages: Olganan, Marian

Feats: human bonus (Endurance), first level (Additional Traits)
Proficient: all simple weapons, the snag net, light and medium armors, and shields (except tower shields)
Traits: Altruistic Diplomat (+2 diplomacy), Avid Reader (take 10, knowledge (nature), Birthmark (a specific birthmark can be used in place of a holy symbol), Child of Nature (+2 survival to find food and water, +1 knowledge (nature))

Spells:
- Orisons (at will): Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Enhanced Diplomacy, Mending, Stabilize
- 1st (7/day): Bless, Charm Animal; Abstemiousness, Cure Light Wounds, Read Weather, Shield of Faith, Tap Inner Beauty
- 2nd (5/day): Barkskin, Calm Emotions; Augury, Spear of Purity
- 3rd (-/day): Create Food and Water, Speak with Plants
- 4th (-/day): Grove of Respite, Imbue with Spell Ability
- 5th (-/day): Awaken, Telepathic Bond
- 6th (-/day): Heroes' Feast, Stone Tell
- 7th (-/day): Creeping Doom, Refuge
- 8th (-/day): Animal Shapes, Mass Cure Critical Wounds
- 9th (-/day): Miracle, World Wave

Upon awakening Gabriel was very ill. The mite, it turned out, didn't expect to win, and thus didn't play fairly: the bitter creature had covered all his weapons with poison and himself with various diseases, just to ensure Gabriel's death along with his own.

In his state of fevered dreams, Gabriel saw alternating visions of hideousness and loveliness, and heard both terrible rasping voices and beautiful angelic ones. Regardless, they all agreed: he was going to die. However, each of them made an offer, telling him that together they had the power to keep him alive.

With no other choice, and an inability to call upon the divine gifts he was given, he accepted. And he became a nascent immortal.

Future updates are coming with more. For now, I am out of time.


To clarify, one of the last links I created, the "keep him alive" option links to hags. This is because the creatures who took him in were hags, and they were offering to use the power of their coven to keep him alive in exchange for favors later.

I was under a mistaken impression of Hag Coven spells - I'd forgotten they could Reincarnate and had Animate Dead instead of Create Undead. To further muddy the waters... Create Undead apparently can't make vampires anyway. So... whoops.

I'm probably going to have it as part of my house-rule that resurrection magic in general has a tendency to... go awry. There is probably a very rare and obscure ritual that can combine dead-raising things with creating undead things to create more powerful undead... in other words vampires... by bleeding them out, or something. I'd love input. In any event, I thought I'd mention that. Also my ADD and infatuation with Dragon Age is killing my productivity in this thread.

Sorry. Hopefully, I'll be writing more soon.

EDIT: all of the above is supposed to be in the "OOC" text style. I don't know why it's not. ANYway...


Bookmarking war threads one, two (armors), three (more war, especially economics).


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Thread is too long to completely read but...

How I view it is that most Combat Mages would be Adepts in a support role with a few true Wizards/Sorcerers/etc who work with the Trebuchets, Ballistaes, etc. Monsters would be used for their special skills similar to how Elephants and such were used.

Honestly I like the way Pathfinder handles Mass Combat in UCa.

Though I might Necro the Armour thread...


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Thread is too long to completely read but...

How I view it is that most Combat Mages would be Adepts in a support role with a few true Wizards/Sorcerers/etc who work with the Trebuchets, Ballistaes, etc. Monsters would be used for their special skills similar to how Elephants and such were used.

Honestly I like the way Pathfinder handles Mass Combat in UCa.

Though I might Necro the Armour thread...

In this world, the "wizards" (and sorcerers, incidentally) would be exclusively Alchemists, Artificers (3.5-port/alteration), and Summoners. That would definitely change their comparative impact.

I don't beleive that Rome had Trebuchets, though they had Ballistae and Catapults. They also lacked cannon, or even Gunpowder (the 9th Century being substantially after Rome), though they might have Crossbows, based on trade. Maybe.

So:
Greek War Tech 1
Greek War Tech 2
Greek Warfare
Greek Warriors
Roman Military Tech
Roman Military
Roman Technology (in general - yes, I linked that before) :)
Roman War
Roman Weapons
Roman Military

:)

Enjoy!


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I thought you would allow the CRB Classes as NPC Classes?

Rome had Trebuchets though they were typically small and very limited in use and number. (Hammer of Vulcan was the largest I ever heard of and it was around the size of the Trebuchets in Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.)

They had access to Crossbows but they were typically mounted on castle walls and used as smaller Ballistae or by the Auxiliary Troops.


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I got my hands on John Wick's Wicked Fantasy not long ago and one of the things he does in that is limit classes and archetypes based on culture and race.

Orks for example Killed and Ate their gods so they have no Divine spellcaster classes.

Other races are limited to a single Archetype for certain classes simply because that's how their culture is.

If you want to keep some of the Non-APG classes in a limited way I would go with his example and cherry pick some archetypes for them that fit the way you want your setting to feel.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I thought you would allow the CRB Classes as NPC Classes?

I thought I'd mentioned earlier that I was now leaning away from that. I could be wrong, though, or it may be easily missable (give the size of my posts!). :)

But for now, anyway, I am not really ready to allow NPCs access to classes that PCs can't have.

Especially things like wizards and sorcerers, though, as they can be effectively replaced by the APG classes for world-building (and the APG classes are even called "wizards" at the get-go); basically, when something usually uses sorcerers can be replaced with summoners, while wizards can be replaced with alchemists and artificers. Also, I'm not usually a fan of "NPC-only" stuff. Generally, if an NPC can do it, I generally prefer to allow that a PC can do it, presuming the PCs go through the same "hoops" as the NPCs.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Rome had Trebuchets though they were typically small and very limited in use and number. (Hammer of Vulcan was the largest I ever heard of and it was around the size of the Trebuchets in Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.)

They had access to Crossbows but they were typically mounted on castle walls and used as smaller Ballistae or by the Auxiliary Troops.

Ooh! I'd love to see these resources! I love stuff like that!

Greylurker wrote:

I got my hands on John Wick's Wicked Fantasy not long ago and one of the things he does in that is limit classes and archetypes based on culture and race.

Orks for example Killed and Ate their gods so they have no Divine spellcaster classes.

Other races are limited to a single Archetype for certain classes simply because that's how their culture is.

If you want to keep some of the Non-APG classes in a limited way I would go with his example and cherry pick some archetypes for them that fit the way you want your setting to feel.

That's very interesting. I like the basic idea, too.

I think, though, what I'm doing instead is basically making archetypes that fit a given race and apply them to other classes instead.

For example: ifrits normally have a wishmaster archetype for sorcerers, but instead (since summoners gain sorcerer bloodlines anyway), they'd gain that as "their" summoner variant. It caps out at sixth level spells, but that really kind of works. Especially given that summoners' name makes sense, as they're now literally, the "exclusive" masters of summoning. Plus, they're power caps out in the ability to summon those who went for too much power too quickly (and their direct descendents): efreets.

All of this effectively leaves the witch as the single most (potentially) powerful arcane magical creature.

(Oracles match their power-level, but the strong limitations on them.)

So I'm kind of using that, though more I'm making each race put it's own unique stamp on a given class rather than placing class restrictions.

(NOTE: there may be one exception to this: the druid. Fey may be able to acquire the druid class but not others. This would be based on the nature of fey, much like you described above. Half-fey, including half-elves, would have access, in theory, as well.)


I am trying to dig up some of my older resources though I found a fairly newer one in my local library on the people who inspired the Myth of King Arthur. Specifically the 15 main stories which all seem to have merged together into the Majority of the legend.

Which oddly leads me into asking if you would be interested in helping out with a Historical Fantasy Campaign Setting set in during the era when Chainmail started to become cheap enough to equip the basic footmen with it. (In between the 11th-13th Centuries if I remember correctly.)


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I am trying to dig up some of my older resources though I found a fairly newer one in my local library on the people who inspired the Myth of King Arthur. Specifically the 15 main stories which all seem to have merged together into the Majority of the legend.

Which oddly leads me into asking if you would be interested in helping out with a Historical Fantasy Campaign Setting set in during the era when Chainmail started to become cheap enough to equip the basic footmen with it. (In between the 11th-13th Centuries if I remember correctly.)

Cool! I may be.

So, make a thread, and get me the names and numbers of those books, so I can maybe have a gander, too! :)


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Dot. Also, I usually try to stay away from campaign setting posts (I don't want to steal things from other people while I world build), but this stuff is excellent and would make for a pretty compelling campaign.


DarthPinkHippo wrote:
Dot. Also, I usually try to stay away from campaign setting posts (I don't want to steal things from other people while I world build), but this stuff is excellent and would make for a pretty compelling campaign.

I'm honored, DPH!

I also highly encourage anyone who is interested in "stealing" as much or as little as they desire: it's hard to steal something that's given away freely.

So long as you don't later sue me for something I created, I'm totally cool with you using any of these ideas for any reason whatsoever*! :D

(Using the generic "you", up there, not actually referencing, well, uh, you, DPH, even though I was talking to you. Or was it talking to Ewe? U? Yoo? I don't know. It's 3:30 AM. I'm not sure why I'm awake. Goofiness abounds! :D)

* Well, okay, "any reason whatsoever" does not include actively being evil. But you know what I mean. Er, I mean you, this time, not "you". Bother it all, English, why you so silly?! Wait... argh!
(:D)


Tacticslion wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I am trying to dig up some of my older resources though I found a fairly newer one in my local library on the people who inspired the Myth of King Arthur. Specifically the 15 main stories which all seem to have merged together into the Majority of the legend.

Which oddly leads me into asking if you would be interested in helping out with a Historical Fantasy Campaign Setting set in during the era when Chainmail started to become cheap enough to equip the basic footmen with it. (In between the 11th-13th Centuries if I remember correctly.)

Cool! I may be.

So, make a thread, and get me the names and numbers of those books, so I can maybe have a gander, too! :)

Should be up soon though I am thinking of retrofitting my Northern Holds Thread.


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Found out that the Roman type of Trebuchet I mentioned was a type of Traction Trebuchet. The Hammer of Vulcan was only as tall as 2 Normal Men and used a combinations of Pulleys and Men pulling on Ropes.

Their "Crossbows" were basically a lighter version of the Scorpio(Latin)/Polybolos(Greek) and were apparently called Manuballista(Latin)/cheiroballistra(Greek).

Maybe I misread the book a little... Oh and it was in a book series called Ancient Artillery of the World(?). I didn't have time to write down the number of the book.

And I will be using the Northern Holds Thread while I set-up a new Campaign Guide for the entire world.

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