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What's the point of mounts?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Hey recently I have really wanted to make one of two characters: Paladin EMPYREAL KNIGHT archtype, and Cavalier either beast master or Emissary, but here is the problem the only outdoor sort of campaign or game is kingmaker all others deal with underground sort of games which to me seems odd. Why make classes that pretty much are based off of mounts when you only have one AP that lets the characters use them?

If anyone knows of of other APs or games etc that let them use mounts Id really appreciate knowing so I can keep my eye out for those games.


Halflings and gnomes use medium sized mounts which easily fit in many premade dungeons. Considering both get a bonus to Charisma, both can make decent paladins, and gnomes make excellent cavaliers, so they are worth looking into if you want to play one in an AP. Not everyone uses the Paizo APs, so for players wanting to play mounted knights of some sort in homebrew game or adventure published elsewhere the classes are necessary. Too bad you weren't looking a week ago- I started 2 groups doing a PF PbP of 2e's Night Below, which would for the most part be very friendly to medium mounted characters.


Oh I usually dont play well never play gnomes or halflings haha


The Kingmaker AP has few traditional "dungeons", many of the encounters are outside so you can have your mount with you for many of the encounters.

Plus, this topic doesn't belong in this part of the board :-)


Right thats what i mean are there any others like that?

Also dorf I was more hoping some gm would say come join my game lol

Andoran

Be a pushy, pain-in-the-ass and stubbornly ride your mount into places where it shouldn't be.

Osirion

They do just fine off the mount. I am with you on halflings a waste of space they are, but Gnome, now Gnomes freaking rock.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mike Schneider wrote:
Be a pushy, pain-in-the-ass and stubbornly ride your mount into places where it shouldn't be.

"What do you mean my mount is not allowed to enter the bar! Off with you serving wench or I'll ride thee over! Away Zalascar! To the mead adn whores!"

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
TarkXT wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Be a pushy, pain-in-the-ass and stubbornly ride your mount into places where it shouldn't be.
"What do you mean my mount is not allowed to enter the bar! Off with you serving wench or I'll ride thee over! Away Zalascar! To the mead adn whores!"

My dwarf's warpony, sparkle*, is used to drinking right out of the barrel. In human lands its often difficult to find ale good enough for him.

* The dwarven translation is roughly "The refraction of light off of a perfectly cut gem* , a very manly term. Some things don't translate well.


"Ha! Warpony, I ride a giant, fiendish tribble! I leave a trail of Minions where ever I go! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!"

"would you mind passing the ale? The table seems to be covered in tribbles"


I agree that halflings would make good Pallys


As best I can tell, there is no actual rule, as such, about what size a creature has to be relative to a character to serve as a mount. And after all, dwarves are medium and yet in the Bestiary are said to ride (medium) ponies. Obviously it has to be strong enough to carry the character, but a boar or dog summoned as a paladin's mount has Str 18 and the *1.5 carrying capacity multiplier for a quadruped; pick a relatively short character and watch your weight and you can (at least possibly) handwave riding one.

Second, in fact, it's not actually stated (as it is for cavaliers) that a paladin has to be able to ride his bonded mount. This is a bit cheesier ("it's a mount; a halfling could ride it, I just can't!"), but technically you could just have it act as an animal companion of Int 6 instead of riding it. And those rangers thought they were so special . . .

Osirion

It must be one size larger then you, the pony thing is the exception, not the rule.

Andoran

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
They do just fine off the mount. I am with you on halflings a waste of space they are

Any "challenged" opponent ever critted by a halfling cavalier's Agile scimitar while he's Dervish Dancing and Piranha Striking knows that's BS.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Usually as a side dish to the main course.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
It must be one size larger then you, the pony thing is the exception, not the rule.

You have a page number or PRD link for that?


Mounts are freakin awesome, with a little creative use.

First, a Horse has 3 attacks at 1st level.
Other mounts (rangers or beastmaster cavs) can be trip buddies, or grappling, Pouncing death machines.

Mounted archery actually takes NO FEATS. If mounted, as long as the mount only moves it's speed you.can full attack it.with a bow at no penalty.
(So Cavs can kite, Luring Cavalier is particularly good.)

You can use it's move action to close, then quick dismount and FULL ATTACK (sort of a 1st rd pounce), then flank with it foe +2 to hit on both of you. Cav's can grant it and allies coordinated charge to give both of you a pseudo pounce.

They are great for chases.

A large mount indoors CAN squeeze. Or have the wizard reduce it and just use it as a flank.

Andoran

Quote:
"Whats the point of mounts?"

You "ride" them, and they allow you to travel faster, with greater loads. Sometimes, anyway.

-Kle.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Ringtail wrote:
Halflings and gnomes use medium sized mounts which easily fit in many premade dungeons.

Take that with a caveat. For those small folk, the only suitable mount for dungeon use is a riding dog. Most other mounts have the Dalek problem when it comes to stairs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
see wrote:
As best I can tell, there is no actual rule, as such, about what size a creature has to be relative to a character to serve as a mount. .

At least one size larger. Dwarven "ponies" are still large creatures.

Osirion

Funnily enough, I am currently working on a splat book that focuses on mounts and mounted combat, expanding the rules slightly without requiring lots of new feats. I hope to have more to say about it by the end of the month.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raventhorn wrote:

Hey recently I have really wanted to make one of two characters: Paladin EMPYREAL KNIGHT archtype, and Cavalier either beast master or Emissary, but here is the problem the only outdoor sort of campaign or game is kingmaker all others deal with underground sort of games which to me seems odd. Why make classes that pretty much are based off of mounts when you only have one AP that lets the characters use them?

If anyone knows of of other APs or games etc that let them use mounts Id really appreciate knowing so I can keep my eye out for those games.

So far since I've subscribed most APs have a lot over land travel. Only Council of Thieves didn't have much. King Make just has the most encounter in wilderness.

Take SS, lots of wilderness travel in that one. Carrion Crown has going from place to place to place. Jade Reagent has lots of traveling so far and more by the looks of it. The only AP I've seen so far that really is all that mount friend is Council of Thieves. King Maker goes to the extreme with being mount friendly.


Well, most non-urban random encounters are probably going to be outside. and often with everyone mounted...

Cheliax

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

On the note of mounts is there a set rule for getting the cool mounts... Griffon,pegasus, and even the unicorn


LazarX wrote:
see wrote:
As best I can tell, there is no actual rule, as such, about what size a creature has to be relative to a character to serve as a mount. .
At least one size larger.

Again, does anyone have an actual page number or PRD link to support this claim? A FAQ entry to point to? A dev comment, at least?

LazarX wrote:
Dwarven "ponies" are still large creatures.

An assertion supported absolutely nowhere in the actual text about ponies here. The statblock explicitly says they're medium, and then the text says, "Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves[.]"

Taldor

As far as I know, there is no rock solid universal rule that mounts have to be one size larger than the rider.

Instead Paizo has been putting that rule into the Cavalier and Summoner classes. So the design evolution and intent is leaning in that direction.

Osirion

In 3.5 the wording was clear, it seems it no longer is. However the RAI is clear. The mount normally needs to be one size larger. The pony/dwarf thing is an exception for a number of reasons.

1: Its a hold over from both older editions and LotR
2: Dwarves are on the shorter end of medium
3: Pony's are on the larger side of medium

If you look at every mount listed for races, every class that grants a mount you will see they are in fact using the "must be one size larger rule"

The game does assume you use a bit of common sense.


see wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
It must be one size larger then you, the pony thing is the exception, not the rule.
You have a page number or PRD link for that?

This is one of those things you have to extrapolate from a few different sources.

First, p. 162 of CRB states that horses are suitable for humans, dwarves, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs. Ponies are shown to be suitable for gnomes and halflings.

Looking now to the Bestiary, p. 177, we see that horses are large and ponies are medium. The indication, though not clearly spelled out, is that your mount must be one size category larger than yourself to be an effective mount.

Seeing as this is another 3.x holdover, I would also venture that flying mounts must be two size categories larger than the rider. I don't feel like doing further research at this time.

Edit: snuck in before me Seeker

Grand Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

In 3.5 the wording was clear, it seems it no longer is. However the RAI is clear. The mount normally needs to be one size larger. The pony/dwarf thing is an exception for a number of reasons.

1: Its a hold over from both older editions and LotR
2: Dwarves are on the shorter end of medium
3: Pony's are on the larger side of medium

If you look at every mount listed for races, every class that grants a mount you will see they are in fact using the "must be one size larger rule"

The game does assume you use a bit of common sense.

It's not a very large exception, either, as a pony (STR 13 Medium quadruped) will struggle to carry the weight of an average dwarf (185lb) in any medium or heavy armour. If a character rides a mount permanently into heavy load, a GM certainly should apply all the applicable penalties.

Advanced ponies exist, according to the Bestiary, and I've suggested elsewhere that a "dwarven pony" should have the advanced template. That, or interpret it as actually a Dwarven Cob, a short and sturdy horse.

Osirion

I never said it was a good mount option, only it was the exception in that it was medium sized.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So:

1) Pathfinder doesn't actually have any rules on mount size for ordinary riding, just on allowed Cavalier class feature mounts.

2) Pathfinder rules directly establish that members of an explicitly Medium race (dwarves) can use an explicitly Medium mount (pony).

3) Actual real-world data indicates adult humans can ride a Medium mount, given historical uses of ponies, donkeys, and mules for riding by normal-sized humans in the real world.

And, from that set of data, it's supposed to be "common sense" that there's a requirement that mounts have to be a size category larger than their riders.

Osirion

see wrote:

So:

1) Pathfinder doesn't actually have any rules on mount size for ordinary riding, just on allowed Cavalier class feature mounts.

Well hard rule no, RAI is clear, you forgot the beast rider cavalier, the paladin mounts, , the Mounted Fury barbarian, Horse Lord ranger, the ride able edilon rules and most riding animal . Also ride skill implies it.

see wrote:


2) Pathfinder rules directly establish that members of an explicitly Medium race (dwarves) can use an explicitly Medium mount (pony).

No the pony entry says that, which is why it is an exception to the normal rule. You will also notice it does ot say elves or humans can ride a pony, just dwarves.

see wrote:


3) Actual real-world data indicates adult humans can ride a Medium mount, given historical uses of ponies, donkeys, and mules for riding by normal-sized humans in the real world.

And, from that set of data, it's supposed to be "common sense" that there's a requirement that mounts have to be a size category larger than their riders.

And in game terms they would take the -5 to ride checks.Which you do not need to do normal riding. They could use em, but not a single one would use them in combat or at any time when they think it would call for something like a ride check.

SO Yep, its common sense as 9.9 out of ten mounts listed anywhere have to be one size larger. You have found 1 and only 1 exception to that rule so far, and we know this as it spells out clearly that dwarves can ride them.

Which is what an exception is.


see wrote:

So:

1) Pathfinder doesn't actually have any rules on mount size for ordinary riding, just on allowed Cavalier class feature mounts.

2) Pathfinder rules directly establish that members of an explicitly Medium race (dwarves) can use an explicitly Medium mount (pony).

3) Actual real-world data indicates adult humans can ride a Medium mount, given historical uses of ponies, donkeys, and mules for riding by normal-sized humans in the real world.

And, from that set of data, it's supposed to be "common sense" that there's a requirement that mounts have to be a size category larger than their riders.

Incorrect on count (2).

As far as pony goes, the PRD states:

Like horses, ponies can be trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill, and such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat.

Dwarves would have to use a horse (per PRD):

A horse is suitable as a mount for a human, dwarf, elf, half-elf, or half-orc. A pony is smaller than a horse and is a suitable mount for a gnome or halfling.

As for count (1), there was a ruling previously that stated mounts had to be larger than you. It is somehow vacant or missing now, but "common sense" does show that all example mounts fall under this ruling. Look at all the sample mounts and this common sense is there.

If you want to use an ill suited mount, it would involve a ride check penalty as per the Ride skill, assuming it could support you.


Raventhorn wrote:
Why make classes that pretty much are based off of mounts when you only have one AP that lets the characters use them?

Because a TON of people who play Pathfinder have GM's who write their own adventure and worlds and don't use AP's and as such there are a TON of people who are not limited in that area?

You DO know that you don't have to ONLY play the AP's right?


Some poeple want to play Only aps gilfalas, and by smurf, you should allow them to do what makes them happy.


Still the APs have the random encounters that can be played mounted with ease and mounted classes are still useful even without sitting on a horse anyway.

Anyway the description for pony says that dwarves can ride the pony, but later it says that the pony can serve as a suitable combat mount for gnomes, halflings and other small races, so yes, the dwarf can be carried by a pony, and may prefer that because of his shorter legs, but that would be as a load. Mounted dwarves would still need a horse (or perhaps a giant pony) for combat. Ponies, donkies, dogs and whatever medium mount you can imagine can bear any burden withing their carrying capacity, including a humanoid rider, but that doesn't mean that they are suitable as combat mounts, merely as a mode of transport for the said burden.

Andoran

IMO any text permitting a dwarf to ride a pony is likely a neglected remnant; and I wouldn't count on it remaining through the next round of printings.

....but if not, what class would a dwarf take which optimally permits him to make best use of a pony?

* first we discard all options which do not advance the mount.
* then we discard cavalier, summoner and samurai.
* then we discard paladin (because dwarves are suboptimal paladins)
* then we discard druid (because they can cast Reduce Animal)

....what's left? A couple of oddball archetypes?

I.e., it's really a moot argument.

Shadow Lodge

Mike Schneider wrote:

IMO any text permitting a dwarf to ride a pony is likely a neglected remnant; and I wouldn't count on it remaining through the next round of printings.

....but if not, what class would a dwarf take which optimally permits him to make best use of a pony?

* first we discard all options which do not advance the mount.
* then we discard cavalier, summoner and samurai.
* then we discard paladin (because dwarves are suboptimal paladins)
* then we discard druid (because they can cast Reduce Animal)

....what's left? A couple of oddball archetypes?

I.e., it's really a moot argument.

The dwarf can cast reduce animal but who wants to blow their second level spell slots on it?

Dwarf paladins aren't that bad. Their +2 to saves makes up for the loss of cha, and they're the only medium mount rider without a strength/size penalty. -1 to hit when smiting is bad, but not nearly as bad as -1 to damage and 1.5 damage from the lower dice. Darkvision is also hard to overlook.

Medium isn't just about getting in the dungeon, its about being able to have a charge lane once you get there.

My dwarven fighter/druid has a pony animal companion and getting him around still requires the occasional reduce animal or spiderclimb.

Osirion

Well if you want to go by RAW, they can ride a pony as a normal mount .However they can not use one in combat or that has been combat trained.

Shadow Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Well if you want to go by RAW, they can ride a pony as a normal mount .However they can not use one in combat or that has been combat trained.

Citation?

Osirion

PRD wrote:

Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves, but they also make fond pets for humans as well. They stand 3 to 4 feet tall and weigh about 600 pounds.

A light load for a pony is up to 100 pounds, a medium load is 101–200 pounds, and a heavy load is 201–300 pounds. A pony can drag 1,500 pounds.

The statistics presented above are for a typical pony. Tougher ponies with the advanced simple template exist, but are relatively uncommon and, unlike horses, these creatures are not generally called “heavy ponies.” Like horses, ponies can be trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill, and such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat.

The first half states Dwarves use them. However the section on training them form combat states only small races may do so. Take note dwarf is not on the list of races that use combat trained ponies.

Shadow Lodge

That's not raw.

such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat does NOT say such mounts ONLY serve halfling gnomes and other small races as steeds in combat.

I often eat pizza at pizza hut does not mean i never eat pizza at chuckey cheese.

Osirion

BigNorseWolf wrote:

That's not raw.

such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat does NOT say such mounts ONLY serve halfling gnomes and other small races as steeds in combat.

I often eat pizza at pizza hut does not mean i never eat pizza at chuckey cheese.

If you want to go strict, yes it is. It states such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat. Which is in line with every other mount rule in the game.

The point is can you or anyone find any other mount listed anywhere that clearly states a rider of the same size may use it?

So far we have One and just one (and that one leaves out dwarves when explaining what races use them as combat mounts. On the other hand every thing else written implies or outright says the riders are one size larger.

We are left with one single exception and that one states small races use them as combat mounts.

As I said up thread the dwarf thing is clearly something left over from LotR and older editions and no longer fits the current rules.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
If you want to go strict, yes it is.

It's not a matter of being strict, its a matter of making things up and labeling it raw.

There is no in game distinction between a combat mount and a non combat mount in terms of usable ness. A combat mount is a function of the animal: whether or not it has been combat trained. It is not a function of the rider. RAW neither states, nor implies, that a war pony trained to bear halfings and gnomes into combat suddenly becomes a cart horse when a dwarf sits on their backs.

Quote:
It states such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat. Which is in line with every other mount rule in the game.

It does not state, or even imply, that that is ALL that they serve.

I often eat at pizza hut, dominos, and other such pizza places for dinner" does not mean that i never eat in non pizza places for dinner

Quote:
The point is can you or anyone find any other mount listed anywhere that clearly states a rider of the same size may use it?

Why do i need to find more exceptions to the trend than the exception to the trend that is SPECIFICALLY spelled out in this case?

Quote:
We are left with one single exception and that one states small races use them as combat mounts.

But NOTHING that states that ONLY small races can use them as combat mounts. 1 > 0

Quote:


As I said up thread the dwarf thing is clearly something left over from LotR and older editions and no longer fits the current rules.

Sometimes pathfinder keeps things from tradition and sometimes they don't.

Osirion

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not a matter of being strict, its a matter of making things up and labeling it raw.

There is no in game distinction between a combat mount and a non combat mount in terms of usable ness. A combat mount is a function of the animal: whether or not it has been combat trained. It is not a function of the rider. RAW neither states, nor implies, that a war pony trained to bear halfings and gnomes into combat suddenly becomes a cart horse when a dwarf sits on their backs.

The rules state you a -5 for using an unsuited mount. The pony write up states it is used in combat by small races. So by strict reading the dwarf would take the -5 in combat but not to normal riding.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It does not state, or even imply, that that is ALL that they serve.

I often eat at pizza hut, dominos, and other such pizza places for dinner" does not mean that i never eat in non pizza places for dinner

It indeed states small races, you chose to ignore that statement.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Why do i need to find more exceptions to the trend than the exception to the trend that is SPECIFICALLY spelled out in this case?

Because the debate at this time is; Can you ride a mount the same size as you. That one was not aimed at you, but more at people claiming it is not an exception

BigNorseWolf wrote:

But NOTHING that states that ONLY small races can use them as combat mounts. 1 > 0

Except every thing written about it and the fact it states small races and leaves dwarves off the list.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Sometimes pathfinder keeps things from tradition and sometimes they don't.

This I agree with.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
The rules state you a -5 for using an unsuited mount. The pony write up states it is used in combat by small races. So by strict reading the dwarf would take the -5 in combat but not to normal riding.

-That isn't strict, its house rule. The game uses suitable or not suitable, not suitable for one thing but not another. A pony is a suitable mount for a dwarf. End of story

Quote:
It indeed states small races, you chose to ignore that statement.

The only thing I'm ignoring is your insertion of "only" into the rules your assertions that its still raw after you've added words to it.

Quote:
Because the debate at this time is; Can you ride a mount the same size as you. That one was not aimed at you, but more at people claiming it is not an exception

The mount has to be suitable. There is no raw on what that is. As the raw stands that means that it is the DM's call. The DM should make that call based on

-The idea that a mount is ALMOST always one size larger than the rider

-There is Currently one exception to that rule: and with good reason.
-Reality: Would X riding Y feisibly work Dwarves have really short legs, and dragging your legs on the ground makes for a poor mount (hence why i don't think a boar should have a human mount, or even a dwarf)

Quote:
Except every thing written about it and the fact it states small races and leaves dwarves off the list.

Rule 1 states A B C D

Rule 2 states ONLY A B C

This is a contradiction

Rule 1 states A B C
Rule 2 states D

This is not a contradiction. The conclusions are A B C D
Not EVERYTHING written about it, or they wouldn't have the bestiary reference.

Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves, but they also make fond pets for humans as well. They stand 3 to 4 feet tall and weigh about 600 pounds.

The suited to combat and just suited distinction is something you're interpreting. Since you don't seem to be a fan of singular exceptions, can you tell me what other exception distinguishes between the two kinds of suited?


Take your mount underground. It can fit in 5 foot hallways, it's just harder to move and fight. Or if you're a paladin, summon that horse in a large room.


be a halfling/gnome Rider
Or do the pally summon trick....
:)
SMURFIN!

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