...No, Slashing Grace is absolutely intended to allow you to finesse a katana. Or any other 1-handed slashing weapon that you normally can't finesse. What do you think the feat is for? An unintended combination would be more how you can combine Weapon Versatility with the Titan Mauler to finesse virtually everything in the game, but considering Paizo's Swash preview mentioning you can expand the list with feats and multiclassing I suspect they did recognize that possibility and accepted it as a cool thing.
Not sure what weapon stats would best represent the Ninjatō though.
Katana. The only practical difference is that it lost the slight curve.
I don't see any problem to let a character with Katana proficiency (aka, who can use it with one hand) to finess it. I mean, it's almost the same kind of weapon as the Curved Elven Blade, just a little smaller... And for the one point of bonus damage, it's far from game breaking. Especially when you look at the class that will gain from it. It's not the Ninja or the Samurai who are game breaking, and, except the Magus, there is not a lot of Dex close quarter class who are that powerfull...
If there is so little difference between the katana and the wakizashi, then why not just use the wakizashi?
Because, you want to use a Katana... It's easy to say ''my wakizashi is in fact a katana'', but it will not be two handed. Paizo should make a feat that give finess to Katana and to some spear too, if they want to improve their ''Oriental setting'' imo.
Because, you want to use a Katana... It's easy to say ''my wakizashi is in fact a katana'', but it will not be two handed. Paizo should make a feat that give finess to Katana and to some spear too, if they want to improve their ''Oriental setting'' imo.
You can use a wakizashi two-handed, you just don't get a strength bonus. Which, on a Dex focused character, should only be a point or two.
I could take the argument the other way: if the Wakizashi is so much like the Katana, why don't create a feat to use it with dex too (even a pattern like the Dervish could be good)? That way, if the guy really want to use a Katana on dex, it cost 2 feats for a small +1 damage...
i found it better than ''playing A for B''. it could lead to some ''Cavalerie Archer using a short bow that is in fact a long bow on horse just because''...
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Arutema is using an unintended combination of rules to do so. Swashbucklers don't use katanas.I like how several people here are saying theres no reason to make the katana finesse-able and to just play by the rules when Arutema has already pointed out that you can now make it finesse-able by the rules.
Which leads me to my question. @Arutema Is there a way to accomplish this without being a swashbuckler? I'm playing a ninja, dual wielding wakizashis right now but id like a katana in 1 hand.
Don't confuse class with fluff. The lightly-armored (or unarmored) sword-saint can be represented by a variety of classes. Swashbuckler, Magus, and Samurai are just some of them.
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The only finesse non-light weapons I know of are the rapier and the elven curved blade. I see where people would ask why an elven curved blade would be finesse and not a katana, and I assume the answer would be the flexible metal used by elves or something like that. A katana is a slashing sword that can be used in one or two hands, so I would put it in the same vein as a longsword and scimitar.
Scimitars CAN be made finesse with the right feat trees, so I would propose katanas have similar options. The Iaijutsu master of 3.0 could weapon finesse a katana, which I noticed was lacking in Paizo's sword-saint class. So I would either suggest a feat line or class ability. I do find the idea of being a swashbuckler with a katana a little silly, so I would encourage a better route, even though the swashbuckler one is valid.
Scimitars CAN be made finesse with the right feat trees, so I would propose katanas have similar options.
This. It would be really easy for Paizo (or a DM) to create some ''kenjutsu dance'', with a similar patern than the Dervish Dancer feat.
A lighter katana would be indistinguishable from a saber...they are basically the same sword with different hilts.
Musasashi's wooden swords are called boku-toh. Yes, he fought his later duels with them. But he wasn't famous for finesse.
The finesse style is about exquisite control of the weapon, as opposed to great control. You aim at the exact same points as a normal person does. However, instead of powering through to the vulnerable areas, you rely on exquisite control to get around defenses.
Which is one reason why a Str based build hits harder. Finesse is about hitting. Standard style is about hitting and doing damage.
Katana varied in length from barely longer then a wakizashi (courtier style weapons designed to be easy to wear and very quick to draw) to heavy tachi-class ones that were forty inches long and definitely designed for two hands.
That duel with the Scotsman; he probably won because his weapon was longer. There were actually laws passed back in the day limiting the length of rapiers, because whoever had the longer weapon tended to win the fights. Not to mention a rapier trying to parry a claymore is going to run into all sorts of problems.
Lighter katanas are indeed slicing weapons...the wedge shape does not deal well with rigid armors, but the curved edge is great for opening up bloody wounds. Heavier katanas can actually function more like axes, but they also have a bad habit of getting caught in hard armors, and then bent or broken. The 'soft iron' that forms the curve of the blade and gives them their flexibility doesn't deal well with the stresses of chopping.
==Aelryinth
The Wakizashi is easily a finesse weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi
The Katana is either a one-handed finesse weapon or a "two-handed" finesse weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana
Despite what it says on wikipedia, from what I have learned about the Katana previous to Pathfinder or DnD is that the Katana's grip only fits a hand and a half, not two full hands. A dia katana, or diato, is a longer blade thus requiring a longer grip that fits two hands and then some.
Not sure why they exclude the Katana from the weapons list......
If you want to add it into your game, the following stats should be fair play:
Katana 1d8 19-20(2x) S
Dia Katana 1d12 (3x) P or S
I just don't see the need to add stuff if what you want is already in the game. You want a light, finnessable katana? Use the wakizashi. You want to two hand a finnessable katana? Use the Elven curve blade? You want a weapon that's light, one-handed, two-handed, finnessable, deadly with a high crit? You're probably asking too much out of one weapon. I'm not against house rules or adding new feats or customizing the game, I just always try to see if I can work my concept into the already existing rules.
As for how they compare to real life katanas, you have to remember that Pathfinder is a game. The weapons are abstracted both for balance, and so that one "weapon" can be used to represent multiple concepts.
Arutema is using an unintended combination of rules to do so. Swashbucklers don't use katanas.
Wait, how is using a feat in the Swashbuckler section of the ACG playtest, with the Swashbuckler class from the ACG playtest an "unintended combination of rules?"
I mean, they put them in the same place.
When I read that feat, my reaction was it was there specifically so Swashbucklers could expand what weapons they use. Personally, my thoughts ran to Falcata over Katana, but whatever floats your boat.
You want a light, finnessable katana? Use the wakizashi. You want to two hand a finnessable katana? Use the Elven curve blade? You want a weapon that's light, one-handed, two-handed, finnessable, deadly with a high crit? You're probably asking too much out of one weapon.
The Wakizashi? Sure, but what you want as a one handed 1m blade will be the same as the ninja's small blade. The Elven blade? Good bye capacity to one handed it.
Is it asking for too much? It's an exotic weapon, with a smaller dice than the Elven blade (and the deadly of the Katana is not really more usefull thant the +2 to cmb from the Elven Curver Blade).
So no, I don't think that it's asking too much. As I've said, it should be possible to use dex (with finess or with a second feat, like Dervish Dance) with the katana and some spear IMO.
You want a light, finnessable katana? Use the wakizashi. You want to two hand a finnessable katana? Use the Elven curve blade? You want a weapon that's light, one-handed, two-handed, finnessable, deadly with a high crit? You're probably asking too much out of one weapon.The Wakizashi? Sure, but what you want as a one handed 1m blade will be the same as the ninja's small blade. The Elven blade? Good bye capacity to one handed it.
Is it asking for too much? It's an exotic weapon, with a smaller dice than the Elven blade (and the deadly of the Katana is not really more usefull thant the +2 to cmb from the Elven Curver Blade).
So no, I don't think that it's asking too much. As I've said, it should be possible to use dex (with finess or with a second feat, like Dervish Dance) with the katana and some spear IMO.
I have to agree with this. Just because it's not in the game doesn't mean it can't be. It doesn't mean it has to be a "concept" of another weapon in the game. No weapons ingame have the same stats. They are all different to give different advantages.
Katana is longer than the wakizashi, like I showed you. Wakizashi was the blade used to commit suicide on (fall on your sword). You could NEVER do that with a katana. It's the difference between a longsword and a shortsword.
Adding it as an exotic weapon would force anyone wanting to wield one to take an attack penalty using it or take exotic wep feat to use it. Sacrifices to use a balanced weapon. Add it in, balance the stats but be sure they reflect that of their peers.
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One of my GM's said flat out no to the "reskinning" of things, specifically this very issue of a wakizhasi reskinned to look like a katana. Fantasy (which is the focus of many of the abilities in the game) has many examples of katana's being finessed. Rurouni Kenshin, for example, has many episodes (and chapters in the manga) emphasizing the speed of various weapons, with Kenshin being able to use his Reverse Blade Katana to outmatch thier speed with various stances, attacks, and grips (even though the reverse blade causes the weapon to be drawn just a little bit slower).
Manga also has characters swinging swords about the size of barn doors. It's not exactly a place I'd claim as an authoritative source.
(...) Lookin at the iconic barbarian (...)
Using a oversized weapon is quite easy in pathfinder, the -2 to hit is not a big turn off...
Good video!
But the point here is not really the ''real sword''. I mean, juste look at the bow mechanics: we are far from the real markmanship. The point here is more about ''concept'' IMO. Even if in the real world the katana is not ''finner'' than a long sword, in the popular culture it is, and it would be a godd addition to the game to make it possible (even if you need: proficiency to held it one handed and attack finess before). This simple addition would made the 2 handed samurai/ ninja more possible (Dex build vs Str build) and make the Kensei playable at low level without using a Wakizashi or a Scimitar.
The real answer would be to do a : (dex+for)/2, but we don't want to recreate the game, right?
For the all weapon dex based, why not? With 2 feat (something like Weapon Finesse and a Greater weapon finesse), it could be quite interesting to use dex for attack bonus to any weapon (while keeping str for damage). Not broken in my opinion, and some weapon (spear, flail, falchion) could fit it quite well.
something like this:
Greater weapon finesse
You are trained in using your agility in melee with one kind of weapon, even if it's not it's normal use.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon finesse, strengh: 12.
Benefit: With a slected weapon made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Just gonna leave these here
Linkified for you.
Thank heavens someone posted the ScholaGladatoria videos. It is far less agile in one hand than most arming swords, or even longswords.
The katana is not a "light" weapon. It is not comparable to a rapier by any means.
It's an unbalanced hand-and-half sword; a top-heavy saber.
Pathfinder succumbs to misconception and mystique by making the thing an exotic weapon and giving it Deadly.
If anything, the Katana should be penalised for not having any functional guard. -1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage.
...and here I am, looking for love for the Damascus steel saber.
In all honesty weapon finesse is a terrible feat tax. Any weapon that the feat applies to should automatically have the option of wielding it with dex or str. Being trained in using a weapon should be exactly that and not require some secondary training so you can use a weapon with another means.
In all honesty weapon finesse is a terrible feat tax. Any weapon that the feat applies to should automatically have the option of wielding it with dex or str. Being trained in using a weapon should be exactly that and not require some secondary training so you can use a weapon with another means.
There is 2 problems with that.
First: by logic, it's more difficult to use a weapon with finesse than hurl it with strengh. You may be able to use a short sword by simply putting all your strengh in your attack.
Second: it would make the Dex based character quite stronger. DEX is far more usefull than STR outside of attack (CA, Reflex, Init...). It's kind of normal to pay a tax to be able to be Dex-based instead of Str-based.
But sure, the Dex-build don't have that much love. If their survivability is better than their Str counter-part, they lack the damage (and on this forum, it is quite important to have a good DPR). Two way to improve this: make it possible to add Dex to Damage with more weapon (by upgrading Weapon Finess or by adding a second feat to do so) and to improve the choice of non-light weapon finesse-able (to get better dice).
The short of this is: NO.
Why? Balance on the mechanics end. This is not a real world simulaiton, stop with your weeaboo fantasy. The rules exist as they are, there are options that enable to you do what you are talking about except that they aren't called "katana".
Go pick up an aldori dueling sword and the exotic weapon proficiency feat (as well a weapon finese) and you can call the sword whatever the hell you like (unless your in PFS, which I guess has a specific exception against this).
When a basically equivalent option exists to your idea, and you're refusing to accept it, I can only imagine it's because you want the superior qualities of the katana (damage, or deadly, or whatever I don't recall stats) instead of the aldori dueling sword. Either that, or your so in love with the mythos of the "almighty katana" that you can't recognize that this game is simply an abstraction and you shouldn't be so worried about what the sharp metal bit in your hand is called in the book.
Another argument against katana as a light weapon and its comparisons in this thread to a rapier. The katana is wielded with the intention of striking opponents, not deflecting blows. The standard western and cinematic sword fights with multiple sword connections by deflecting blows is not how a katana is used. The actual intent is like the basic premise of iaijutsu: pull your katana from its sheath, strike your opponent, wipe of the blood, resheath the sword. If at all possible never make contact with the opponents weapon, make contact with flesh only. Wielding a katana is nothing like wielding any Euro-based sword and not even comparable. Its not better, its different.
The short of this is: NO.
Why? Balance on the mechanics end. This is not a real world simulaiton, stop with your weeaboo fantasy. The rules exist as they are, there are options that enable to you do what you are talking about except that aren't called "katana".
The rules are not ''divine rules''. It's quite an organic game (with many new option in each book, and a large possibility to do some house rule) so asking/proposing way to get a katana finesse-able is not out of the way (and far from over-power, eck: a dex-based Katana will still do far less damage than a Dervish Scimitar!).
Another argument against katana as a light weapon and its comparisons in this thread to a rapier. The katana is wielded with the intention of striking opponents, not deflecting blows. The standard western and cinematic sword fights with multiple sword connections by deflecting blows is not how a katana is used. The actual intent is like the basic premise of iaijutsu: pull your katana from its sheath, strike your opponent, wipe of the blood, resheath the sword. If at all possible never make contact with the opponents weapon, make contact with flesh only. Wielding a katana is nothing like wielding any Euro-based sword and not even comparable. Its not better, its different.
True, but you will never see a fighter using a rapier trying to deflect a two-handed sword. And the Rapier can do so because it's piercing (you don't have a hedge to protect on a rapier, while with a Katana you have)
The short of this is: NO.
Why? Balance on the mechanics end. This is not a real world simulaiton, stop with your weeaboo fantasy. The rules exist as they are, there are options that enable to you do what you are talking about except that aren't called "katana".
The rules are not ''divine rules''. It's quite an organic game (with many new option in each book, and a large possibility to do some house rule) so asking/proposing way to get a katana finesse-able is not out of the way (and far from over-power, eck: a dex-based Katana will still do far less damage than a Dervish Scimitar!).
But it is 100% not necessary. One-handed finesseable sword? Done, aldori dueling sword. What does it matter what it's called? Your goal is accomplished before you even complained. What about this is insufficient? Are you really so attached to the name of some abstract stats?
I'm guessing the fact that it isn't a 18-20 threat range...But it is 100% not necessary. One-handed finesseable sword? Done, aldori dueling sword. What does it matter what it's called? Your goal is accomplished before you even complained. What about this is insufficient?
I'm sure it is. But that's part of my point. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
There is a better reason than the 18-20.
Fi you play with a Katana, chances are that you are in an Asian setting. What will you find in tresure? Aldori sword? Elven blade? Chances are you will find katana. So maybe your DM will accept that you have an Aldori/Elven blade that you name Katana, but chances are that you will have to buy/ made your weapon all the time...
Maybe I am one of those silly DM who thinks that it's better to house rule somehing and let your player do what kind of character he want's to do, than play by the book.... ;)
Most players buy their weapons anyways. Getting a weapon exactly as you want (with regard to enhacements and special abilities) is rare. And if you have a good relationship with a GM it should be easy to ask him to replace loot from published adventures of whatever with loot relevant to the party. Of course, this whole things is about whether a GM should use the listed loot for adventures or tailor it to his group. Which really has nothing to do with the original topic.
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There is a better reason than the 18-20.
Fi you play with a Katana, chances are that you are in an Asian setting. What will you find in tresure? Aldori sword? Elven blade? Chances are you will find katana. So maybe your DM will accept that you have an Aldori/Elven blade that you name Katana, but chances are that you will have to buy/ made your weapon all the time...
That's part of the social contract between player and DM. If your DM is going to provide magic weapons as loot, they can tailor that to be useful for you character. If they do, they can do that as easily for a dueling sword or ECB as a katana. If they don't, then even if you are using a katana, they may give you a wakizashi or naginata.
How can you explain an Elven Curve blade and an Aldori blade in a setting where it's not in the Lore? Sure, your DM can change de Lore to make it more viable, but it's asking for much to your DM (especially when the ECB is almost the same blade than the Nodachi). Far more easy to let player use finess with whatever weapon they wants via an other feat (especially with the spear...). It would be far from game breaking but let them do what they want.