Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Caedwyr wrote:
The heroes typically just don't want to get hit by the thrown rocks and spend a whole lot of time dodging the rocks. In fact, in most stories the giants are fairly innaccurate. They tend to work more like suppression fire rather than aimed shots.

None of that is modeled in the game, however -- the heroes spend no time at all dodging (because the rocks can't hit them anyway, and because dodging doesn't require any actions), and therefore there's no suppressive fire aspect at all -- just a lot of wasted ink. However, to model suppressive fire in game, I could give giants Ranged Threat as a bonus feat, I suppose.


The other part as to why characters in stories want to dodge the rocks more than players in a game, is that if they get hit by a rock it kills them, which isn't the case most of the time in the game. Also, the giants tend to be throwing rocks from a range/location that the characters can't reach, different than how most game encounters work.


Added a paragraph in the Introduction document about how to (optionally) play without using miniatures. One would have thought this was obvious, but it can't hurt.

Also added a section listing the allowed bonus types. "Feat bonus" I decided was too goofy, since so many other feats gave so many other types of bonuses, so I eliminated that as a type (largely in favor of competence and circumstance bonuses). This section clearly spells out which bonus types stack (Aid Another, Circumstance, and Dodge), and establishes a rule that all bonuses are "typed" -- untyped bonuses are out, because it's too hard to tell from them whether they are actually intended to stack with everything, or whether the writer just got lazy and left the type off.

Aiding Another in combat can now be done in place of an Attack of Opportunity, rather than as a standard action, and doesn't require the arbitrary DC 10 attack roll. Also, the Evoker's counterfire ability should cost an attack of opportunity to use, rather than having the odd "only once per round" disclaimer.

Cleared up the text on disrupting casting in your threatened area. To streamline mechanics and to ensue that one shmoe just standing around can't disrupt an infinite number of casters, successfully making someone you're threating lose a spell costs an AoO.

These are all pretty minor things that won't change game play much, but I thought I'd post them here for commenting if anyone spots a real problem with any of them that I haven't thought of. Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
houstonderek wrote:
... so being reckless will get you dead.

Well, I'm three shades of screwed, huh?

Dark Archive

Just 3? You sure you didn't miss any?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

We don't talk about the red shades.


Caedwyr wrote:
The other part as to why characters in stories want to dodge the rocks more than players in a game, is that if they get hit by a rock it kills them, which isn't the case most of the time in the game. Also, the giants tend to be throwing rocks from a range/location that the characters can't reach, different than how most game encounters work.

Ah, but they DO spend time dodging the rocks in the game. That is what hit points partly model, you bob and weave, getting more tired and less able to dodge (from 100 hp to 10 hp). Then, when a rock takes your last hp and puts you at negative, maiming or killing you, that's because that rock hit you!

.....mind you, I'm really sick and tired of that model, and yearn for a more stimulationist approach, but that is how the game works currently.

Dark Archive

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I do remember someone had a different system to handle HP, similar to 4th edition in D&D, as you had penalties the lower your HP got.

100% health you were acting normal
50% health you received a -1 penalty to all rolls and at
25% you had a -2 penalty
10% you would become fatigued.

Of course they had the rule that any physical damage that did 50% or more of your health required a Fortitude roll I think DC 20 if I remember or you were knocked out because of the impact (not dead, just K.O.). Force magic also applies to this, bu regular elemental spells didn't (never knew why except probably for balance reason maybe).

I do not recall were I read them or if they were just another 3rd party supplement from back in 3rd/3.5 edition but I used them when players wanted a more gritty/real games. This was accompanied by armor giving half their AC as damage reduction against certain types of attack.


Deiros wrote:

I do remember someone had a different system to handle HP, similar to 4th edition in D&D, as you had penalties the lower your HP got.

100% health you were acting normal
50% health you received a -1 penalty to all rolls and at
25% you had a -2 penalty
10% you would become fatigued.

Kirthfinder has adopted something very similar. Check out "Battle Fatigue" under the Combat section of the Introduction document, linked in the first post in this thread.

Scarab Sages

I've been following this thread, and I've read some of the linked docs at Google, and, although not entirely to my preferences as a GM, I am very, very impressed at the hard work going into these house rules. Bravo! :-)

Dark Archive

I've seen it as I skimmed through the document, thank you Andostre. I will read it with more time when I have it.

I almost renamed my home made campaign setting to Kirthfinder Tactics (Final Fantasy Tactics) ^^ since I an going to use a lot of the things he has, but I still need to read it in a more detailed manner.


OK, for all the people clamoring for an Inquisitor, I've added an Inquisition domain. With the existing spell theurgy from rogue levels and Strike feat mechanics, you can make a pretty close facsimile of an Inquisitor by playing a cleric/rogue or archivist/rogue.

INQUISITION DOMAIN
A cleric/rogue with the Inquisition domain is intended to replace the Inquisitor base class from the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide. A cleric 4/rogue 16 with this domain and the Temple Raider rogue skill talent has a BAB of +15 and a divine caster level of 16th, and can use rogue combat talents to gain additional Strike feats to use with your variant channeling (aka “judgment”) ability.
Archivist Skill: You gain Skill Focus (Bluff) as a bonus feat. This supersedes the Inquisitor’s “stern gaze” class feature.
Variant Channeling:

Spoiler:
You can channel divine judgment on heretics. As a swift action, expend one daily use of channel energy, and choose any one opponent and any one Strike feat you possess. Until the end of the current encounter, the effects of that feat apply to all of your weapon attacks against that opponent, even if you make iterative attacks. Also, use your full cleric or archivist level (in place of your BAB derived from that level) to determine the effects of Strikes used in this manner.

Domain Spells: 1st—smite; 3rd—zone of truth; 5th—discern lies; 7th—bladebane; 9th—mark of justice; 11th—forbiddance; 13th—dictum (or blasphemy or holy word); 15th—shield of law (or holy aura or unholy aura); 17th—imprisonment.
Granted Powers:
Spoiler:

Detect Alignment (Sp): At will, you can use detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, or detect law. You can only use one of these at any given time, however.

Second Judgment (Su): Starting at 8th level, when you use your variant channeling ability, you can choose to expend two uses of channel energy and gain the effects of two simultaneous Strike feats (even if you do not have the Striking Mastery feat). At 16th level, you can expend three uses of channel energy to simultaneously gain the effects of three Strike feats.

Exemplar of Judgment (Su): At 20th level, whenever you use your variant channeling ability, you can invoke true judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, you can make a single melee attack (or ranged attack, if the foe is within point-blank range) against the target. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally and the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 20 + your Wisdom modifier) or die. Regardless of whether or not the save succeeds, the target creature is immune to your true judgment ability for 24 hours.

Scarab Sages

I have a question for Kirth:

Given that you have warned a few posters already of the dangers of mining this project for ideas -- because most changes are heavily integrated across the rules set -- are there any items changed that you are confident we can "pluck" without extenuating negative consequences in our own games?

Hopefully I'm not imposing extra work with my question, I am assuming you may know, "off the cuff", a number of rules changes you made we can just "yoink"... Better your recommendation, than us erring :-)


Furry Grognard wrote:
Are there any items changed that you are confident we can "pluck" without extenuating negative consequences in our own games? Hopefully I'm not imposing extra work with my question, I am assuming you may know, "off the cuff", a number of rules changes you made we can just "yoink"... Better your recommendation, than us erring :-)

Really, that's for each group to decide for themselves -- I wouldn't presume to tell them. In general, though, I'd say for any group with an insufficiently firm grasp of the rules to make an informed decision, that group would be far better off playing by the core Pathfinder rules and ignoring these.

That said, if you have specific questions about a specific item, I'm usually happy to answer them, but I'm not really in the market right now to publish an entire guidebook of "How to Convert Each Item to Any Possible Variation of the Core Rules."

Dark Archive

I have a nice archetype you might want to try, its the Dimension Wizard :) master of space and time. If you wish to add it or review it for use with the Kirthfinder.


Deiros wrote:
I have a nice archetype you might want to try, its the Dimension Wizard :) master of space and time. If you wish to add it or review it for use with the Kirthfinder.

Go ahead and link to it and I'll be happy to check it out!

Liberty's Edge

I think some parts of the Kirthfinder rules can be pretty easily ported over without too much of a problem. For example, tactical movement in combat is very easily ported to any Pathfinder game, I believe, and I think it would make a world of difference to melee classes with even just that. I also think the weapons & armor changes could be easily ported over without much of a change, and they are fabulous and make everything so much better than the core rules.

My group's Kirthfinder game is actually already deviating from Kirth's original rules because, well, that's how we rolled with it and that's what we agreed as a group. I think it's really just a matter of getting to a level of rules proficiency and understanding of what you are looking for in a game. A lot of things ARE interconnected, but you can generally find some certain subsets to snippet out and use for your own game.


Alice Margatroid wrote:
My group's Kirthfinder game is actually already deviating from Kirth's original rules because, well, that's how we rolled with it and that's what we agreed as a group.

That's by far the best way to approach any rules system, I think -- it's what spurred this houserules project in the first place! I'd be especially interested to compare your modifications/changes/new stuff in a year or so, after the rule sets have had more time to diverge. Cross-pollinization can be a very good thing.

Dark Archive

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Might as well just post it here mate

Time Mage (Wizard)

Spoiler:

Bending time and space to their will through careful study, Time Mages master the art of manipulating a space and the time that transpires within it. Through study, talent or sheer determination, all revel on the flow of time and space.

Time School
Associated School: Transmutation.

Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the physical enhancement, telekinetic fist and change shape powers of the transmutation school.

Distort Time (Su): Whenever you receive damage from a single source, you gain an immediate bonus to your Initiative equal to your ½ your wizard level (minimum +1). This effect lasts until the start of your next turn. This benefit stacks with itself; whenever you receive damage from a different source, you gain an additional bonus to your Initiative.

Distort Space (Sp): As a standard action you can target any foe within 30 feet and distort the space he occupies making it suffer the Staggered condition for 1 round as ranged touch attack. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are unaffected. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier. This attack ignores spell resistance.

Quantum Distortion(Su): At 8th level, as an immediate action, you can sacrifice a spell to grant yourself an insight bonus equal to the spell level to your AC and all saves. This bonus lasts for 1 round.

I will also add small consumable item for you to consider it if you want.

Phoenix Feather

Spoiler:

Aura moderate conjuration (healing); CL 13th
Slot none; Price 4,550 gil; Weight -.
Description
This soft, fluffy substance is a bright crimson in color and often takes the shape of a small feather. Created through alchemical means, while phoenix down is not actually from the legendary bird its name is derived from, its function is very reminiscent of it. If applied to a creature that died within the last four rounds they are restored to life per the raise dead spell. Using a phoenix down is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, breath of life; Cost 2,275 gil


Updates:

Added some more ideas for customizing your gear, including rules for items that draw magical power from planar wellsprings or places of power or whatever. Also, enhancing your familiar/mount/animal companion as if it were a magic item, using personal mojo, is now a "go."

I've broken off the magic variants from the Introduction, and am assembling a whole "Spells" chapter around them. The spells tables will all be here; so will the spells "building blocks" idea discussed above, and also the rules for paralysis, confusion, death spells, etc. as ability damage/drain. The Metamagic feats will all be moved from the main Feats document into this one. There will also be a whole section on what you can do with a Heightened spell.

I need to finish that and the table of equivalencies for Canny Defense (as we discussed earlier), and then the game should be more or less final. Still on target for the April 1st deadline!


Every direct-damage spell in the core rules is now ray of frost + metamagic feats; examples and calculations are given. Attribute-affecting spells are next on my list.

When I'm done in April, I plan to get at least one set printed for myself; pricing for 3-holed punched documents on bestvaluecopy are estimated at $26 each; add a few bucks for binders and dividers that I'd pick up at Office Max, and I'll probably be able to produce a houserules binder for something like $35. For people in my home game, if you let me know I can produce a few extra copies at the same time as mine. I decided to go with 3-ring binders this time so that pages can be added or swapped out more easily (not that I have much intention of changing anything after April 1, if I can help it).


Question:
Can you take the warmage feat if you are a wizard with a wand bonded item?

Possible errata:
In the Feat which gives +2 to two skills (Skill synergy) there is a scentence at the end of special mentioning a double double is a triple - it doesn't seem to relate t anything! (I may have noted this before - but it came to mind, and I might not have mentioned it before)

Strength for thrown Weapons:
Make it a feat? Allowing a bit of investment (training) for the spear throwing barbarian to work :)


JamesHarrison wrote:

1. Can you take the warmage feat if you are a wizard with a wand bonded item?

2. In the Feat which gives +2 to two skills (Skill synergy) there is a scentence at the end of special mentioning a double double is a triple - it doesn't seem to relate t anything!
3. Strength for thrown Weapons: Make it a feat? Allowing a bit of investment (training) for the spear throwing barbarian to work :)

1. Yes, since the wand gives you an eldritch blast.

2. That's leftover from previous wording -- the idea was supposed to be that the first synergy for Skill X gives a +2 bonus, but subsequent ones only +1 each. It'll be fixed in the final. Thanks!
3. That's how it currently works; see the Power Throw feat.

Liberty's Edge

Some notes/questions that may or may not have been brought up elsewhere. Mostly about metamagic feats, Innate Metamagic and sorcerer eldritch blasts. Sorry if my points are a little convoluted, operating on a limited amount of sleep right now.

I don't really understand how the "formula" for calculating "costs" works, especially when you start stacking metamagic on your eldritch blast. Okay, one I can understand. Let's say you're a level 12 sorcerer (red dragon bloodline), and so your eldritch blast has Innate Metamagic (Shape Spell [Cone]) applied to it. Obviously I can cast this at-will because (2 x (1 + 2)) = 6, and double that is 12.

But what about the bonus feats granted by the Blast Metamagic class feature? For the purpose of my examples I'll be picking any random two, let's say Widen Spell and Selective Spell.

It's not really clear if the feats are always active or not. If they are, then once my sorcerer hits level 16, she's not going to be able to use her eldritch blast at all! (2 x (1 + 5 [blast spell] + 1 [shape spell] + 2 [widen spell x3] + 1 [selective spell]) = 2 x (10) = CL 20. I'm going to assume that's not the intention though, and you can apply the metamagics as you like. But then it gets confusing with multiple Innate Metamagic feats. Adding all 3 of my feats at level 12 gives me (2 x (1 + 3 + 1 + 1)) = 12, so I can cast my triple-area party-friendly breath weapon 3/day. But what if I don't add Selective? Can I cast a non-party-friendly, triple-area breath weapon 3/day as well? It's not clear how the metamagics are limited, or heck, if this limitation applies to spell-like abilities at all.

Furthermore it's not really clear how you begin calculating the metamagic reduction costs. I personally would enforce a system like they do in sales, i.e., you pay the full cost for the most expensive to get the "discount" on the others. In my examples above, widen x3 obviously gets "paid" first. Or Blast Spell in the case of a 16th level sorcerer.

Incidentally, Blast Spell's wording is very, very confusing. I've read it a couple of times now and it still confuses me. But I think I understand the intention. If the Blast Spell is waves of fatigue (a 5th level spell), you can spend a 5th-level spell slot to add it to your eldritch blast, with an equivalent "uses up a spell slot" line equal to its spell level (5th in this case, so +5 spell slots). But it also says to combine this with Innate Metamagic. So do I include it in the Innate Metamagic daily/at-will calculations, or does it run off its own total considering it's powered by spell slots, or what?

And last thing for now, the same Blast Metamagic ability refers to 'Piercing Evocation' (not a feat) and 'Spellstrike' (not a metamagic and not able to be used on eldritch blasts anyway). This may have already been picked up though.


Thanks, Alice -- In case it hasn't become glaringly obvious by now, the innate metamagic stuff was I sideline I meant to develop a lot more thoroughly and never quite got to revisiting! But it's clear this stuff at least needs a lot of straightening out. I'm very glad you posted when you did.

In no particular order:

Blast Metamagic will probably be replaced by Innate Metamagic (Cascade Spell), which should clear things up substantially. Cascade Spell, from Super Genius Games, lets you add 2 spells, at a metamagic cost of +1 level above the sum of all the spell levels, so you could prepare a fireball (3rd level) that leaves a fog cloud (2nd level) in its wake as a 6th level spell (3 + 2 + 1).

Sorcerers' bonus metamagic definitely needs clarification. I'd originally thought that the Blast Metamagic class feature would be applied, or not, as you see fit, and the costs and use would stack according to the metamagic cost stacking rules. However, if Blast Metamagic (and innate metamagic in general) can be selectively applied, that does get into some serious confusion when we start in with different combinations of metemagic feats being applied, as in your examples. I'm open to suggestions on this one.

The improved blast and greater blast, on the other hand, would be "free" upgrades not counting against your total metamagic stacking. I'll have to play with some examples and crunch some more of the numbers and see if that's too good, but I suspect that +1 level of free metamagic to your blast at 12th level, and probably +2 more levels at 16th, isn't likely to break the game.

Finally, the sales system is a great idea! But when I build the evocations in the core rules using metemagic feats, I consistently get spell levels that are about one level too high. On the other hand, if you re-arrange things so a +1 level feat comes first, they usually come out OK. I'll try to remember to post some spoilered examples tonight -- I've done about a bajillion of them. One caveat, though -- if you're going to apply, say, Ray Extension and then Shape Spell (ray to cone), it would have to be in that order, since Ray Extension doesn't work on cones.

I'm open to any recommendations or suggestions from the peanuts gallery as well.


some things i noted - little niggles that are possibly cleaned up by now:

I made the following two notes a month or so ago, and haven't rechecked them hope this makes sense:
Athletics: It mentions that if athletics is untrained, your maximum running speed is 4 times your normal speed, regardless of encumbrance and checks. -->This seems to mean heavy armour users do not have to make dc 20 athletics checks to run by just not taking the skill...

To Demoralize (Mass) it mentions your opponents make one check to resist you... but there are no rules for what this check is as demoralize resistance works off of hit die, not a roll.

Both Demoralizing and Feinting work off of your opponents Hit Die - it would seem more consistent with the system* if they worked off of peoples Will saves and intuition saves rather than the abstract concept of Hit die (10+will save, vs 10+HD+wisdom mod etc.).If you don't change it the stat for defense should at least be charisma for demoralize due to your force of personality ideas.

Ranger: the Runecaster section mentions 'equal to your "bard" level', this should be ranger level I assume!

*I just dislike Hit Die as a concept. I much prefer skills, AC or BAB or CMD or Saves which you can design to be high or low and which have understandable analogies rather than the Catch all 'HD': I'd be happy if some way of unlinking skills and spells to HD could be found completly meh!

Oh and we are having the character design session for saturday - We'll see how much kirthfinder we use - I'm up for lots! And there may be a few more questions winging your way as i look up more stuff!

God bless,
james


Thanks, James! I'll try to take care of that within the next couple weeks as well.

Anyone else with comments, errata, corrections -- now's the time to speak up!

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the comments on the eldritch blast and metamagics. My gut feeling is that giving the sorcerer "free" metamagics just on their eldritch blast isn't going to be overpowering. By the time you even get the first eldritch blast upgrade, you're already casting 6th level spells, and the second one comes with 8th level spells. Your eldritch blast will be useful, but it won't even begin to match the power of your spellcasting... especially if your bloodline gives you an elemental blast, like the draconic ones, when elemental resistance is cheap as chips and immunity is everywhere. For the most part you'll be doing mediocre damage with maybe a little bit of control at the expense of holding back on one of your upper tier spell slots. I don't see it being a problem.


Examples of Core Rules Evocations Built Using Metamagic.
All of these assume that ray of frost is the basic evocation unit, and that an evoker can simply use Versatile Evocation to change the energy type. Then we just pile on metamagic feats until we're done, as shown (some have been added or modified since the last rules posting; details available upon request). Damage caps are determined by final spell level, according to the 3.0 Dungeon Masters Guide.

Spoiler:
  • Acid Arrow: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (acid) + Reach Spell (close to long; +2 levels) + Vitriolic Evocation (+1 level) = 3rd level (10d6 initial damage cap); reduce damage cap to 5d6, for a 2nd level spell.
  • Acid Fog: Solid fog (4th) + Vitriolic Evocation (+2 levels) = 6th level.
  • Acid Splash: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation.
  • Blade Barrier: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (force) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Ray Extension (1 rd./level; +1 level) + Extend Spell (rds. to min.; +1 level); Shape Spell (ray to wall; +2 levels) = 5th level; Heighten to 6th for damage cap 15d6.
  • Burning Hands: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 15 ft.; -1 level) = 1st level (damage cap 5d6).
  • Call Lightning: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (electricity) + Reach Spell (close to medium; 1 level) + Ray Extension (+1 level) + Extend Spell (rds. to min.; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to vertical line; +0 levels) = 3rd level (damage cap 5d6).
  • Call Lightning Storm: As call lightning, but long range (+1 level) and Heightened to 5th level (damage cap 10d6).
  • Chain Lightning: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (electricity) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Reach Spell (30 ft. to Long range; +2 levels) + Chain Spell (+2 levels) = 5th level; Heightened to 6th for damage cap 20d6 on the primary bolt.
  • Cone of Cold: Ray of frost (0) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (15 ft. to 60 ft.; +3 levels) = 5th level (damage cap 15d6).
  • Fire Storm: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst, +2 levels, plus rearrange squares, +1 level) + Selective Spell (vegetation and plants; +1 level) + Widen Spell (+1 level) + Burning Evocation (+2 levels) = 8th level (damage cap 20d6, plus 8d6 burn/round).
  • Fireball: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Reach Spell (15 ft. to long; +2 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +2 levels) = 3rd level (damage cap 10d6).
  • Fireball, Delayed Blast: Fireball (3rd) + Delay Spell (+2 more levels) = 5th level (damage cap 15d6); Heightened to 7th level for damage cap 20d6.
  • Flame Strike: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to cylinder; +2 levels) + Sacred Spell or Corrupt Spell (+1 level) = 4th level (damage cap 10d6) or Heightened to 5th level (damage cap 15d6).
  • Flaming Sphere: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Ray Extension (1 round/level, for +2 levels) = 2nd level (damage cap 5d6; maximum duration 5 rounds).
  • Ice Storm: Ray of frost (0) + Invocation of the Knife (+0 levels) + versatile evocation (slashing to bludgeoning) + Flash Frost Evocation (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close to long; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +2 levels) = 4th level (damage cap 10d6, 5d6 cold, 5d6 bludgeoning, but save for half).
  • Incendiary Cloud: Fog cloud (2nd level) + Eschew Materials (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (ray of frost; +1 level) + versatile evocation (fire) + Ray Extension (1 round/level; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +2 levels) + Drifting Spell (+1 level) = 8th level.
  • Lightning Bolt: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (electricity) + Reach Spell (close to medium range; +1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) = 3rd level. You can produce a single line with a damage cap of 10d6, or fork the lightning into multiple bolts (per the Ray Splitting feat), for up to 6d6 damage each.
  • Meteor Swarm: Ray of frost (0) + Eschew Materials (+1 level) + Split Ray (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close to long; +1 level) + Invocation of the Knife (+0 levels) + versatile evocation (slashing to bludgeoning and cold to fire) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; fire damage portion only; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (burst radius from 20 ft. to 40 ft.; +1 level) + Empower Spell (+1 level) = 7th level, with a single-target damage cap of 20d6; Heighten to 8th level to increase the cap to 25d6. Adding 4d6 for 4 rays created (per the Ray Splitting feat) = 29d6 total, and apply Empower Spell, for 43.5d6 total, divided among 4 meteors. Round to 44d6 for ease of division, and each meteor deals 11d6 damage (5d6 impact and 6d6 burst).
  • Polar Ray: Ray of frost (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Numbing Cold Evocation (Dex drain; +7 levels) = 8th level (damage cap 25d6).
  • Scorching Ray: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Ray Splitting (+2 levels) = 2nd level (damage cap 10d6 + 1d6 per ray, divided evenly among rays).
  • Searing Light: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Reach Spell (close to medium range; +1 level) + Sacred Spell (+1 level) + Bane Magic (+1 level) = 3rd level (damage cap 10d6, 15d6 vs. undead). The base damage is somewhat higher than in the core rules, but fire resistance potentially applies to half of it. This was done instead of creating a new damaging energy type.
  • Shocking Grasp: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (electricity) + Reach Spell (30 ft. to touch; -1 level) = –1 level; Heightened to 1st level for damage cap 5d6.
  • Shout: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (sonic) + Deafening Spell (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +1 level) + Still Spell (+1 level) + Bane Magic (crystalline) = 3rd level (damage cap 10d6; 13d6 for crystalline).
  • Shout, Greater: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (sonic) + Cascade Spell (deafness, 2nd level, +1 level) + Dazing Spell (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +1 level) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 60 ft.; +1 level) + Bane Magic (crystalline) = 6th level (damage cap 15d6 or 21d6 vs. for crystalline; deafness permanent).
  • Sound Burst: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (sonic) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +3 levels) + Widen Spell (20-ft. radius to 10-ft.; -1 level) + Dazing Spell (+1 level) = 3rd level (damage cap 5d6). Reverse Heighten Spell, reducing the level by one and the damage cap to 1d8, results in a 2nd level spell, per the core rules.
  • Sunbeam: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Reach Spell (close to medium range; +1 level) + Sacred Spell (+1 level) + Positive Spell (+0 levels) + Blinding Spell (+1 level) + Ray Extension (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) = 5th level (damage cap 5d6; 15d6 vs. undead, oozes, and fungi; lasts up to 15 rounds).
  • Sunburst: This spell is like 3 spells in one, and can be built similarly, starting with the individual parts and then combining them. Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Positive Spell (+0 levels) = 0 level; Daylight (3rd) + Extend Spell (10 min/lvl to instantaneous; -2 levels) + Reach Spell (touch to ray; +1 level) = 2nd level; Blindness = 2nd level; Cascade Spell (to combine the above parts; +1 level) + Reach Spell (long range; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (20 ft. to 80 ft.; +2 levels) = +6 levels of metamagic. Total: 0 + 2 + 6 = 8th level (damage cap 10d6, or 30d6 vs. undead, fungi, molds, oozes, etc.).
  • Wall of Fire: Ray of frost (0) + versatile evocation (fire) + Concentration Spell (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to wall; +2 levels) = 4th level (damage cap 10d6).

  • Alice Margatroid wrote:
    My gut feeling is that giving the sorcerer "free" metamagics just on their eldritch blast isn't going to be overpowering... I don't see it being a problem.

    Yeah, I tend to agree. Thanks!

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

    I must have missed it somewhere, but what classes get good Intuition saves?

    Liberty's Edge

    How up to date is the web site? I need to update Cadogan and Joachim.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

    Kind of out of date. Just waiting for the finalizations now. No reason to update it now when we'll have to do it again next month.

    Liberty's Edge

    Yeah, I can see that. I'm not going through this thread to update, so I guess I'll just run them "as is" tomorrow.

    Dark Archive

    So, when can we expect the final version of Kirthfinder?


    dissapering act - 1st level bard power that lists in it "this power affects one target at 5th level"
    Commanding - Bard lore, has references to fighter level in the command section of it.
    Darts mention rapid shot feat - you have replaced it with manyshot!
    monk strike chill touch, does it last for level attacks? or just the one (Level attacks seems fine, +1d6 cold damage for x hits is a nice bonus)
    Intoduction mentions that CMD=10+CMB... but character sheet has +dex score (like in norml pathfinder), which is correct, and how could one use dex for CMB/CMD (I'm sure there is a feat, finnesse?)

    Some notes copied from my kirthfinder observations document - I'm in a rush sorry if they don't make sense
    God Bless,
    james
    PS character building is very fun and making cool characters :D


    nightflier wrote:
    So, when can we expect the final version of Kirthfinder?

    april 1st


    Ran through an entire dungeon yesterday, based on the Blue Temple from Saberhagan's Second Book of Swords. The big fight pitted four 8th level PCs + cohorts against an undead evil high priest (Clr 11) and two bodyguards. It was everything I had hoped it would be, with various forms of energy damage all over the place and a fair amount of attribute damage; the fighter stayed up only through the virtue of a favored soul/incarnate cohort spamming lesser restoration. 8th-10th level seems to be at a cusp when immunities haven't quite caught up with attack potential, so a lot of carnage is possible in a very short amount of time. I think the entire combat took 5 rounds, most of which the rogue spent trying to get into position.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

    Hmm, it slipped my mind last night, but Lesser Restoration has a 3 round casting time. Are we going to adjust that?


    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Hmm, it slipped my mind last night, but Lesser Restoration has a 3 round casting time. Are we going to adjust that?

    If paralysis spells eventually are going to simply deal Dex damage, etc., then remove paralysis would supersede lesser restoration to restore Dex damage, and so on. We could keep lesser restoration as currently written as well, but actually INCREASE the casting time to something like 30 minutes.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

    Just observing that the fight would have gone MUCH differently. :)


    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Just observing that the fight would have gone MUCH differently. :)

    Not necessarily -- Benambra had already thrown all his best spells by that point, so once Cadogan got behind him and the thief started throwing 800d6 worth of archery damage, I have a feeling the fight would probably have been over pretty soon anyway, just with Cadogan dealing the sword damage instead of Skjorn (Joachim could have maybe used summon monster I just to give Cadogan a flanking partner, if need be).

    Grand Lodge

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

    Just giving my view from the player side of the invisible screen. :)


    Joachim can't summon a cup of coffee when I need one, let alone a flanking partner...


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Cadogan wrote:
    Joachim can't summon a cup of coffee when I need one, let alone a flanking partner...

    Might need to start swapping out his 1st-level prepared spells, then. For you, summon monster I = Drawmij's instant flank. ;)

    Liberty's Edge

    Oh, but that would be an abuse of the Leadership feat! They have a whole thread for that somewhere on here ;-)


    This post is simply the same as above now I have found myself with more internet :) In a more readable style! (sorry for dual posting, hopefully your life will be made a little easier)

    A few typos:
    1.In the exotic weapon proficiency Darts section it mentions you get rapid shot for free - this should be multishot (as you have done away with rapid shot)
    2.In the bard lore "commanding" there is a reference to fighter levels, this should of course be bard levels.
    3.In the bard 1st level inspiration "dissapering act" it mentions that it affects one target at 5th level (and more there after)... it should be 1st level.

    Some Clarifications:
    4. CMD=CMB+10 - but on the character sheet includes your dex bonus as normal; I assume this is an out of date character sheet
    4b. Is there a way to use your dex for CMB/CMD?
    5.Monk 1st level ki power "chill touch (attack)" Would it work for one attack (when you use it), or one touch attack per level (as the spell)?
    5b. If the latter would the extra touch attacks be combined with unarmed strikes as the initial chill touch attack
    {I assume not getting multiple chill touches till told otherwise :D}
    6.Can a Wizard with a bonded item take the bond arcane feat for a familer? (And visa versa)... [I like this idea]
    6b.Or for an additional familer/bonded item?
    I feel it's fine to allow a familer and a bonded item... but think two familers or two different bonded items seems a bit much! A simple "you may only take this feat once" clarification would do...
    6c. Can you take this feat if you have eidetic memory (which is a very strong form of spell mastery)

    Cool and I'll keep reading! God bless, james


    JamesHarrison wrote:

    Some Clarifications:

    4. CMD=CMB+10 - but on the character sheet includes your dex bonus as normal; I assume this is an out of date character sheet
    4b. Is there a way to use your dex for CMB/CMD?
    5.Monk 1st level ki power "chill touch (attack)" Would it work for one attack (when you use it), or one touch attack per level (as the spell)?
    5b. If the latter would the extra touch attacks be combined with unarmed strikes as the initial chill touch attack
    {I assume not getting multiple chill touches till told otherwise :D}
    6.Can a Wizard with a bonded item take the bond arcane feat for a familer? (And visa versa)... [I like this idea]
    6b.Or for an additional familer/bonded item?
    I feel it's fine to allow a familer and a bonded item... but think two familers or two different bonded items seems a bit much! A simple "you may only take this feat once" clarification would do...
    6c. Can you take this feat if you have eidetic memory (which is a very strong form of spell mastery)

    4. CMD = 10 + CMB + Dex + Insight + Dodge.

    4b. Weapon Finesse.
    5. and 5b. I'd allow multiple unarmed attacks to carry the effect, 1/round as a standard action -- or, if you had the Battle Touch feat, I'd rule that you got 1 attack with it the 1st round, and iteratives thereafter, but still 1 chill touch effect/manifester level total (max 5, in keeping with the standardized damage caps for 2nd level spells).
    6. Yes.
    6b. I'd probably allow it, actually. A pair of familiars sounds kind of cool to me. Two bonded objects -- depends, are you spending a feat for, in essence, a backup item? Then yes. For a totally different item? Probably not allowed. Referee and player agreement needed.
    6c. Off the top of my head:
    (i) Eidetic Memory + Familiar - no, but remember that you can use your familiar as a spellbook.
    (ii) Eidetic Memory + Bonded Object - yes, but the object becomes your "memory," so if it's lost/destroyed, you're doubly screwed.
    (iii) Diligent Preparation + anything else - No; specifically disallowed.


    Great, great great stuff. I have a few questions/things I wanted to point out. You may already have noticed these in the final version.

    1) The two spell-casting multi-class talents for the rogue don't specify what type of talent they take up. I'd assume combat, but its not specified.
    EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like it is a skill talent. The descriptions of the two talents do not specify however.

    2) Under skills, for crafting a Superior Masterwork weapon, there is nothing to tell us how much it would cost to create a +2 or higher weapon using this method.

    Edit:
    A suggestion/comment.
    Ancestral weapon gives you a masterwork weapon that you can enchant for half. However, it doesn't require any type of proficiency nor does it give any type of proficiency. Would it make sense to give it some type of Synergy bonus at a certain BAB to get martial and then exotic proficiency in that weapon? Perhaps those proficiencies only apply to that specific weapon, not even that weapon type. So if you have your Ancestral Longsword with a BAB of +6/+11, you can use it as if you had exotic proficiency. But if you pick up another longsword, you don't.

    Edit, comment 2:
    What is your reasoning for the different scaling of the +enhancement ability feats? Charisma only gives a +2 bonus and requires you to pick up the feat multiple times. Agile and Stamina training and strength training scale upwards with your ranks in a skill, requiring only one feat use. This makes the feat less useful at latter levels and seems to go against the trend of feats/abilities/skills getting better as you get better. I don't know if this has been addressed before, sorry if it has and I didn't see it!

    Again, fantastic work. Can't wait to use this!


    Been thinking about James' comments re: the Arcane Bond feat, and also about how I HATE the idea of feats giving more feats for free (why take Skill Focus: Perception if you can grab a familiar and get it along with another feat to boot?). So here's what I'm proposing:

  • If you gain a bonded object or familiar through a feat, it still requires the investiture of personal mojo (500 x half your effective caster level squared). In other words, a CL 10th bonded object would cost a feat (Arcane Bond) and also 12,500 mojo.
  • If you gain a bonded object or familiar as a class feature, the mojo cost is waived.

    With that said, there need be no artificial restrictions on mixing and matching: grab one as a class feature, and buy whatever other(s) you want with feat(s) and mojo.

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