Also creating four saves is... much more complicated. Very interesting choice, let me know how it works.
Yes; it's also an unbelievable pain in the neck, having to go back and rewrite all the rules that have almost anything to do with Will saves or save progressions.
Not my decision, though; it was unanimously requested by the 4 players present last night, and I had no strong opinions either way (except not wanting the extra work load, but, meh, I'll get over it).
If they ask for new saves governed by Str and Int as well, that's when I'll put my foot down. One additional save is already bad enough!
If we're going that way, get rid of saving throws entirely and make everything ability checks.
Exactly -- but I'm not going there. Like I said, adding one more save is enough!
Alright. So I've been digging for the better part of four hours, having never looked at S.H.I.T. before. I've come to the conclusion that Kirthfinder is positively beautiful, and that anyone who's fluent Rule-ese should at least take a cursory glance at the Introduction, Feats, Equipment, and their favorite and least favorite class.
I'm still wading through this thing, but it's so...clever and elegant. Class balance exists, but it's not because everything has the same abilities, but because virtually every option is a good one. Nothing like the "Endurance" feat or "Monk Vow" class feature...or... Holy Guns. Everything is viable and amazing, without copping out by making all options homogenous.
Felt the need to glow about it where the people behind it could see.
I am, however, curious how challenge is created, given the massive power boost most PCs get; That is to say, formerly "level-appropriate" encounters as assumed by the bestiary sort of start to get thrown out the window at around the time I can full-attack someone with an attack of opportunity, adding both my Strength and Dex to damage+attack rolls. How do you guys (or any regular Kirthfinder players) adjust encounters to cope with an increasingly wide gap between Pathfinder's assumption of PCs and Kirthfinder's more powerful ones?
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A few things.
Monsters get feats. They'll have a lot of the same options as characters do. This is doubly true for NPCs with class levels. You might be able to full-attack on an AoO, but the opponent can completely parry it, for example.
That and you still can't really do more than one action a round. You have a tonne of options, but your damage output is still around the same as it is in standard PF. That is, around the same as a standard two-handed weapon user.
I envision it wouldn't be too different, although I'm ready to wing giving monsters full HP if things wind up a little too easy. My first Kirthfinder game is next Monday, and I'll be able to see these rules in action finally!
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One thing I've noticed is that low level characters have _a lot_ of AC in comparison to low level monsters' attack bonuses, because of the Canny Defense feat (which most of them, if not all of them, are taking). A player of mine suggested that we cap the Canny Defense bonus to be equal to the level of a particular class (like Great Fortitude and the like applying to a certain class now). I like this idea--especially in consideration of multiclassing. A rogue/fighter could trade his armor proficiencies as a rogue for Canny Defense, and then gain them all back as a fighter, plus he's now got his Cha or whatever to AC. Under this idea, he'd only gain +1 to AC unless he gained some more levels in rogue.
As for the saving throws thing... sounds good to me. I like the symmetry of 4 saving throws (two physical, two mental), but I'm also not sure I'm exactly bothered to go through and change everything. :)
I'll have to see if my players can get behind spell DCs being based on Cha.
I also now make Initiative be Dex + Wis + Misc, incidentally, to give Wis a bit more of a boost.
A player of mine suggested that we cap the Canny Defense bonus to be equal to the level of a particular class.
That's exactly how it was originally written; we changed it specifically to give Jess Door's monk a break at 1st level.
Monsters get feats. They'll have a lot of the same options as characters do. This is doubly true for NPCs with class levels. You might be able to full-attack on an AoO, but the opponent can completely parry it, for example.
This. In running Hook Mountain Massacre, for example:
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A player of mine suggested that we cap the Canny Defense bonus to be equal to the level of a particular class.That's exactly how it was originally written; we changed it specifically to give Jess Door's monk a break at 1st level.
This was my response too! Maybe you could add a line like this:
Special: Creatures who do not wear armor can add their full ability modifier to their AC, regardless of their level.
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A rogue/fighter could trade his armor proficiencies as a rogue for Canny Defense, and then gain them all back as a fighter, plus he's now got his Cha or whatever to AC. Under this idea, he'd only gain +1 to AC unless he gained some more levels in rogue.
I need to double-check, but last I remember, you don't gain proficiencies back when multiclassing unless you trade in what you traded them out for. Maybe this is only for swapping shield profs for Dodge and the like.
Edit: Okay, so the feat itself does not give that clause. However, your rogue still can't get the armor bonus and the Canny Defense bonus at the same time, as he must be unarmored to use the feat.
I don't know, but both my character and houstonderek's were brought to single digit HP totals in Sunday's session, and would have died without Andostre's help.
I feel bad for not reminding you of this:
Evasion (Ex): A rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. At 2nd level, you gain the following abilities:
If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if you are wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
When targeted by a ranged attack, you can choose to drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. You apply this bonus retroactively to the triggering attack. (This ability supersedes the Gunslinger’s “leap for cover” class feature from Ultimate Combat.)
When a swarm attacks you by ending its turn in your space, you may attempt a Reflex save to avoid damage (DC equal to the swarm’s distraction save DC + 10). If the save succeeds, you also avoid any poison, blood drain, or similar effects that normally result from damage by the swarm. If you also have improved evasion (q.v.), it also applies to swarm damage. You must still make a Fortitude save to avoid distraction if you begin your turn in a space occupied by a swarm. (This supersedes the Swarm Dodger feat, from Osirion: Land of Pharaohs.)
One of the bones I threw to rogues and monks in KF, given their usual tendency to go ahead scouting...
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20 point buy (PF style), because my players and I aren't really fans of dice-rolling for stat generation. I'd rather keep them on roughly even footing for my sake, and they'd rather not have to worry they'll get the stats they want to play their character concept. Of course, none of us have the 1e nostalgia to worry about in this regard. ;)
I recognise this might be part of the problem though. Maybe 15 point buy would be better?
To be fair, it also has to do with the party makeup, where they are playing characters with moderate to high Dex -and- moderate to high mental stats: Cleric (his race gives him +2 Dex), Fighter/Sorcerer (Arcane Archer style), Monk, Druid.
And yes: I have warned them that they are going to cry when they get surprised or are otherwise flat footed. :)
20 point buy (PF style), because my players and I aren't really fans of dice-rolling for stat generation. I recognise this might be part of the problem though. Maybe 15 point buy would be better?
We roll 4d6 drop lowest six times, arrange as you like; or players can simply choose the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Both of those tend to come out a lot lower than 20-point buy (except for TOZ's wife, who rolled so well for her rogue that we declared the PC was some sort of genetic experiment!).
I have warned them that they are going to cry when they get surprised or are otherwise flat footed. :)
That'll knock out their Dex and dodge bonuses, but insight will still apply -- unless you've altered Canny Defense for your game, which overall sounds like a good idea.
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I'll have to run the elite array past the group. All the NPCs use it by default, after all. I've had to spend a long time beating the concept into their heads that you do not need a 18 or 20 in your primary stat at 1st level to be viable. Dropping the point buy further may take some good Diplomacy checks on my behalf.
I always wanted to try something like the grid system for rolling...
I always wanted to try something like the grid system for rolling...
That's TOZ's favorite, and I would totally allow it!
I'll have to run the elite array past the group. All the NPCs use it by default, after all.
I only use it only for exceptional, heroic NPCs (generally the ones with PC classes). The non-elite array gets used for non-heroic NPCs, and compared to that, the elite array again looks really spectacular!
The PCs are heroic. Heroes = heroes.
>.>
<.<
...Does Kirthfinder use Double Feats? If so, can I borrow them?
I've had to spend a long time beating the concept into their heads that you do not need a 18 or 20 in your primary stat at 1st level to be viable.
They can still get those scores: see the Amberite advanced racial option. I ran a campaign once in which all the PCs used that, and all came from alternate Prime Material Planes. It was a lot of fun. I think we started with a couple of Experts (one with max ranks in Driving -- he was a Formula 1 racer; and another was supposedly a private eye), a warrior (from some Scottish Highland analog), and an adept (former stage thespian). But they had really superhuman stats, and especially once they started getting into PC classes at 3rd level, no one felt at all underpowered.
(1) Does Kirthfinder use Double Feats? (2) If so, can I borrow them?
1. What are Double Feats?
2. Anyone can borrow anything they like for their home games; this isn't a for-profit enterprise.
Double feats are something from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. They are feats that are so awesome they cost two feat slots instead of one, and only Fighters can have them. Double feats are really cool. They give Fighters a unique and awesome class feature (the ability to learn badass moves nobody else can have).
Double feats are something from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. They are feats that are so awesome they cost two feat slots instead of one, and only Fighters can have them. Double feats are really cool. They give Fighters a unique and awesome class feature (the ability to learn badass moves nobody else can have).
If I can borrow another copy of that from one of the players, I'll take a look at them. Thanks!
Double feats are something from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. They are feats that are so awesome they cost two feat slots instead of one, and only Fighters can have them. Double feats are really cool. They give Fighters a unique and awesome class feature (the ability to learn badass moves nobody else can have).If I can borrow another copy of that from one of the players, I'll take a look at them. Thanks!
I'm not sure how double feats compare to Kirth's Fighter Talents, but the Fighter Talents are very nice!
Monte Cook's double feats are a bit weak to be costing two feats. I was looking to see if you had something a bit... stronger.
How powerful are Fighter Talents? Are they, say, about twice as powerful as a feat :D?
How powerful are Fighter Talents? Are they, say, about twice as powerful as a feat :D?
A 3.5/PF feat or a Kirthfinder feat? Kirthfinder combat feats scale with BAB, so a feat chain in PF might end up being one scaling feat in Kirthfinder. Fighter talents are generally slightly better than Kirthfinder combat feats, but more importantly give the fighter access to things that other people can't do.
>.>
<.<
I'll take a look at them. Decide for myself, I will.
I just want to say that I am really impressed. I am especially fond of your Ranger, which has long been the class I wanted to be my favorite, but that I just could never enjoy.
I think you've done a really good job in general of giving the mundane characters enough supernatural awesomeness that they stay relevant without necessarily casting spells.
I think the only real flaw with your work is that I don't think I'll ever get anyone to play it. It's hard enough to try and find anyone that will play Pathfinder (or D&D for that matter), never mind an obscure set of houserules for Pathfinder.
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I feel bad for not reminding you of this:
As well you should, you horrible person you. ;)
If I can borrow another copy of that from one of the players, I'll take a look at them. Thanks!
I have both the BoXM 1 and 2, as well as the compiled hardcover BoXM, so I can let you borrow one or the other indefinitely the next time we come down. Double Feats are an interesting gimmick, but probably no stronger than a regular Kirthfinder feat.
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I always wanted to try something like the grid system for rolling...That's TOZ's favorite, and I would totally allow it!
No longer true, my friend!
I give you, The Big Bang!
My double feats will be about twice as powerful as a regular feat, and desirable. Hopefully.
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I always wanted to try something like the grid system for rolling...That's TOZ's favorite, and I would totally allow it!No longer true, my friend!
I give you, The Big Bang!
Ha! That looks so fun. :)
I just want to say that I am really impressed. I am especially fond of your Ranger, which has long been the class I wanted to be my favorite, but that I just could never enjoy.
I think you've done a really good job in general of giving the mundane characters enough supernatural awesomeness that they stay relevant without necessarily casting spells.
I think the only real flaw with your work is that I don't think I'll ever get anyone to play it. It's hard enough to try and find anyone that will play Pathfinder (or D&D for that matter), never mind an obscure set of houserules for Pathfinder.
Thanks! Coming from you, this means a lot. Please do let me know if you happen to spot anything bogus/that won't work the way I seem to be thinking it will work.
As far as playing... look us up if you're ever in Houston!
No longer true, my friend! I give you, The Big Bang!
That does look like fun! Having noticed right away that all the example characters are sporting binary stats, though (lots of 17-18s and 3-4s), I'd include this guy's caveat:
And if you're worried about too much "dump statting" you can set a floor on stats -- like nothing can be below a six (because such crappy stats would have led to to be eaten by a badger before adventuring).
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I don't know, but both my character and houstonderek's were brought to single digit HP totals in Sunday's session, and would have died without Andostre's help.I feel bad for not reminding you of this:
Evasion (Ex): A rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. At 2nd level, you gain the following abilities:
If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if you are wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
When targeted by a ranged attack, you can choose to drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. You apply this bonus retroactively to the triggering attack. (This ability supersedes the Gunslinger’s “leap for cover” class feature from Ultimate Combat.)
When a swarm attacks you by ending its turn in your space, you may attempt a Reflex save to avoid damage (DC equal to the swarm’s distraction save DC + 10). If the save succeeds, you also avoid any poison, blood drain, or similar effects that normally result from damage by the swarm. If you also have improved evasion (q.v.), it also applies to swarm damage. You must still make a Fortitude save to avoid distraction if you begin your turn in a space occupied by a swarm. (This supersedes the Swarm Dodger feat, from Osirion: Land of Pharaohs.) One of the bones I threw to rogues and monks in KF, given their usual tendency to go ahead scouting...
Yeah, and I was impaired. How am I supposed to remember all this stuff in the face of Cherry Wheat Ale???
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Double feats are something from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. They are feats that are so awesome they cost two feat slots instead of one, and only Fighters can have them. Double feats are really cool. They give Fighters a unique and awesome class feature (the ability to learn badass moves nobody else can have).If I can borrow another copy of that from one of the players, I'll take a look at them. Thanks!
I have my copy in storage, I'll get it to you when I get it out, which should be soon.
I think I have the PDF of BoXM if you want an electronic copy. Also, I thought of a further refinement on dual stat DC's. What if we averaged them instead of adding them? So your 18 Int, 8 Cha wizard's first level spell DC becomes 12 ( rounding down, of course ).
I think I have the PDF of BoXM if you want an electronic copy. Also, I thought of a further refinement on dual stat DC's. What if we averaged them instead of adding them? So your 18 Int, 8 Cha wizard's first level spell DC becomes 12 ( rounding down, of course ).
That's another cool idea. I don't know if you saw the report above, but your stacking caster stat mods for DCs came very close to becoming the official rule. However, a subsequent suggestion by TOZ, which led to lower saving throw bonuses in general, was adopted, and that led to a desire for a built-in method to lower spell save DCs.
Yeah, I've been following the thread. Refining the rules is almost a full time job for you guys.
Hi guys,
i've been looking through the documents the last two or three weeks and am actually thinking about switching my campaign to kirthfinder soon.
Especially some of your ideas for the skill system and your equipment system seem brilliant.
Some things feel a bit unbalanced to me though and i'd like to hear what you have learned about those while playing.
For example it seems a bit too far on the powerscale to give all sorcerers unlimited elditch blasts - i know it is kept in check by the most powerful spell left, but i fear this change makes sorcerers into machine guns :O its like you said "here have twice as many spells for free! But sry you can only use them as arcane blast :P"
Or an example relevant to my party: stormblood sorcerer lightning staff working a few rounds per day works now all the time - feels like a very hard hitting upgrade (but undoubtly very cool).
How does it actually play out compared to the changed martial classes?
Also what is your experience with iterative attacks 3 and 4 not getting an additional penalty (and fighters going all +20) or the feat skirmish effectively giving pounce?
You already wrote its balanced because enemies have the same abilities, but if i am using monsters or animals straight from the bestiaries, do i have to treat the party as one or two levels higher or something like that?
BTW i'd like to hear your ideas for an alignment free system since you people seem to be good at throwing things away and replacing them with rules that make sense :)
I'm currently using these ideas http://alzrius.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/removing-alignment-from-pathfinder- part-one-classes/ but i struggle with the problem of alignment based damage reduction
Sorry if im bothering you ^^
Houserule documents can be viewed/downloaded at my Google Site.
Previous discussions can be found here.
Design work by Kirth Gersen.
Playtesting by myself, houstonderek, Andostre, Jess Door, and silverhair2008.
Proofreading and editing by Christopher Hauschild and too many others to list.
Thank you all for your feedback.Kirth, I'm sorry for the horrible title. Not sorry enough to change it however. ;)
I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, that it takes a lot to impress me when it comes to mechanics and such, and I have only just now glimpsed at some of the races section. I am thoroughly impressed with the efforts of this project and the work that has been put into it.
Many, many, compliments.
Yea, Kirthfinder is really, really good. It's not something I'll likely use due to lack of compatibility with Paizo's archetype system, the non-core base classes, and Psionics Unleashed, but that doesn't mean I don't admire the work. I do.
1. Some things feel a bit unbalanced to me though and i'd like to hear what you have learned about those while playing. For example it seems a bit too far on the powerscale to give all sorcerers unlimited elditch blasts - i know it is kept in check by the most powerful spell left, but i fear this change makes sorcerers into machine guns :O its like you said "here have twice as many spells for free! But sry you can only use them as arcane blast :P"
Or an example relevant to my party: stormblood sorcerer lightning staff working a few rounds per day works now all the time - feels like a very hard hitting upgrade (but undoubtly very cool). How does it actually play out compared to the changed martial classes?2. Also what is your experience with iterative attacks 3 and 4 not getting an additional penalty (and fighters going all +20) or the feat skirmish effectively giving pounce? You already wrote its balanced because enemies have the same abilities, but if i am using monsters or animals straight from the bestiaries, do i have to treat the party as one or two levels higher or something like that?
3. BTW i'd like to hear your ideas for an alignment free system since you people seem to be good at throwing things away and replacing them with rules that make sense :) I'm currently using these ideas http://alzrius.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/removing-alignment-from-pathfinder- part-one-classes/ but i struggle with the problem of alignment based damage reduction
4. Sorry if im bothering you ^^
1. The only playtesting a sorcerer has gotten is a party NPC (houstonderek -- that would be Siodra) in Hook Mountain Massacre. She was incredibly underwhelming. The at-will blasts were nigh-useless against high hp ogres, especially in comparison to the barbarian's insane damage output, so she was sort of relegated to the background. Sorcerers, being unable to swap out spells as needed, aren't even very good support characters. If you want a character who can blast away all day, with a lot of style and panache, do play one! They're like John Woo characters on steroids. But you probably won't overshadow anyone else -- even with all the shiny new upgrades.
2. You might treat the PCs as 1 level higher, once you get to higher levels -- I'm not always too careful about making "level-appropriate" encounters (as an understatement). We actually prefer a game in which sometimes the PCs walk all over the opposition, and sometimes they flee like kicked dogs. In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention we haven't properly playtested PCs past 8th level or so, due to personal obligations on the part of most of the main players over the last year, but I semi-expect that the game will start to break down around 14th level -- which gives it several more levels of usefulness than 3.5e had for me.
3. What we do is retain alignments for outsiders and characters pledged to a certain deity or cause. Most mortals other than clerics or paladins are treated as being neutral. Undead always count as evil; fey as chaotic. It means that things like detect evil and holy word still have a big place in the game, but generally don't get used against the PCs.
4. No bother at all! -- I'm very happy to answer questions here. All I ask is that if you do switch over, you pop in and let me know which things are working out for you and (more importantly) what problems you're having with it. The more feedback I get, the better I can get the rules before we finalize them and call it "good enough for now."
BTW i'd like to hear your ideas for an alignment free system since you people seem to be good at throwing things away and replacing them with rules that make sense :)
I'm currently using these ideas http://alzrius.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/removing-alignment-from-pathfinder- part-one-classes/ but i struggle with the problem of alignment based damage reduction
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