Another question regarding Shield Ally.
That's a very good point! I don't want it to step too much on the toes of the Shared Shield feat, however, so I may need to list the individual benefits of both, and then divvy them back out appropriately, maybe using the feat as a prerequisite for the talent if there's still a lot of overlap. I'm open to other suggestions as well.
Thanks!
Ah, I hadn't seen that feat. That's another very useful feat. Being that they are both stances, they can't be used together until higher levels.
After studying the documents alot, I decided to make Kirthfinder my default gaming sistem. But I have some questions (about minor things mostly):
1. Rapid Reload feat doesn't exist in KF right? Would it be unbalanced/unreasonable to include it? Are there any other options to quicken the reloading?
2. In Equipment document, several weapons have damage listed as "bludgeoning, secondary piercing". What does secondary damage mean (since there are "bludgeoning and piercng" examples).
3. Weapons with "brace" property infilict double damage in cojuction with held attack option, right?
4. Does Vital Strike feat deal precision damage. Although it doesn't explicitly say, the "replacing it with sneak attack" option somewhat implies it. Also, there is one other feat or ability that lets you apply Vital Strike that lets apply that damage only within 30ft (cannot find the ability now).
5. The barbarians delayed damage pool states "any damage in your delayed damage pool takes effect at the rate of 1 hp per round per class level you possess, until all delayed damage is accounted for "
Does this mean a 5th lvl barbarian takes 5 damage per round until alll damage is taken or something else?
6. Does fighter with Foebane talent qualify for ranger feats with only "favored enemy" as prerequisite?
7. I plan to playtest combat rules (specifically Preemptive Actions, Parry, Counterspelling and Tactical Movement) with standard Pathfinder characters. Is there any short combat example or something to see these rules in combat. It would help greatly.
Is Kirthfinder evolving? Are there errataed documents to find somewhere?
Thank you in advance.
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I'm not Kirth, but I've read his rules backwards and forwards by now, so I'll give your questions a shot. ;)
1. Rapid Reload doesn't exist because light/heavy crossbow reload time is reduced to 1 iterative attack (free action for hand crossbows and prodds) by the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats. This is mostly to reduce the sheer dominance of ranged weapons, as far as I can tell. Taking another feat to reduce the crossbow reload speed (or a normal bow, for that matter) to a free action doesn't seem like it would be problematic to me.
2. I interpret that as like the P/S column in the PF core rules, i.e. doing either both, or being able to choose between the two damage types (such as when you use a sword to stab or cut).
3. Yes.
4. Would have to defer to Kirth on this one, but I think it is. The blurb about Strike feats says they aren't effective against creatures that are immune to critical hits, which is pretty much all the same creatures that are immune to sneak attacks/precision damage.
5. Yes.
6. None of those ranger feats specify anything but 'favoured enemy', so, yeah, he can take them. They're just in those chapters with the class because normally only rangers would want them.
7. I don't know, but combat runs much the same way as before, except that you have more ability to move (most players will move 1/2 their speed every round) and readied actions essentially become iterative actions rather than standard actions.
I don't know whether Kirth's rules have been updated, but I'm working on my own "edition" of Kirthfinder personally. I think he basically encourages people to take what they like and run with it, tweaking it to be best for their own group.
Thank you.
4. Would have to defer to Kirth on this one, but I think it is. The blurb about Strike feats says they aren't effective against creatures that are immune to critical hits, which is pretty much all the same creatures that are immune to sneak attacks/precision damage.
Yes but it needs clarificaton about use with ranged weapons.
I don't know whether Kirth's rules have been updated, but I'm working on my own "edition" of Kirthfinder personally. I think he basically encourages people to take what they like and run with it, tweaking it to be best for their own group.
What did you change, specifically? I myself, have ignored the full round action spellcasting rule, made minor tweaks with some feats, incorporated couple of my own.
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Yes but it needs clarificaton about use with ranged weapons.
I think they can all be used with ranged weapons. I don't recall anything that would suggest otherwise. The only things that have restrictions are sneak attack (within 30 feet unless you have Point Blank Shot) and Skirmish (when you also use Vital Strike in the way it describes).
What did you change, specifically? I myself, have ignored the full round action spellcasting rule, made minor tweaks with some feats, incorporated couple of my own.
I'm also ignoring full-round spellcasting, as well as the change to using Wisdom for ranged attacks - I instead have Wisdom apply to Initiative checks, basically functioning as your ability to perceive danger rather than acting faster. My skills are somewhat different as well. There are also plenty of other smaller changes, basically on the level of minor tweaks with various feats, class features, and the like.
A lot of my changes are to simplify complicated rules, actually. Like the barbarian counterstrike ability, for example, I find introduces a whole new rule subsystem AND breaks the standard for gaining temporary stat increases for pretty much no benefit. I rewrote it as follows:
I also added the following to the rage class ability.
"The bonus hit points are lost at the rate of 1 hit point per class level per round once the rage ends."
Similar damage output overall (slightly lower than Kirth's version I believe) but MUCH simpler to adjudicate.
I have also been using KF for my local game. Using it pretty much as written, but am running a Paizo AP, and since those give out above expected loot, I've ignored the max cap on mojo.
The combats are a lot more fluid, and the battle fatigue means enemies (and players) really fall fast once they're bloodied. I find my party has an easy time with most standard bestiary encounters, but gets quite a challenge when they encounter a NPC I've converted beforehand.
As far as 'erratta'd versions, you'd need to go back through to the post where he put out the most recent documents (around april 2012), and then look for all the Egg of Coot posts and incorporate those. The version I have has also deviated from original KF with a few changes my group has agreed to.
So it does evolve, but in a bunch of different home games, unless those people post their revisions/suggestions here.
While in a stance, you cannot willingly move from your current position through any means (including normal movement, riding a mount, teleportation, or willingly allowing allies to carry you)...
I'm a bit confused. This quote is taken from stance feats. I took it to mean if you voluntarily move you end your stance. But according to Kirth (on PbP campaign):
Arguably, I see that the way it's written implies that you could adopt a stance, then run, then adopt a stance, then run again, etc., but that's against the spirit of the thing, especially in a case in which you're really supposedly running full out.
so how do you end a stance voluntarily?
Wow! I'm out of action for a month and the thread explodes! Luckily, Alice Margatroid has divined not only the letter but the intent of the rules across the board. I endorse all of her resonses.
P.S. I also really like what she did with furious counterstroke. I'd originally modeled it directly on the Tome of Battle crusader, but her take is a lot more streamlined and less confusing, and also looks like a number of other existing rules, which I like even better. I'll probably indicate a bonus type (morale, as all bonuses are intended to be typed in Kirthfinder, and a barbarian is therefore something like a super-self-buffing bard) and rewrite it in the master documents, using her suggestions as guidelines.
Wis to ranged attacks or initiative is 6/half-dozen, as long as Wisdom does pick up a legitimate use to make up for losing Will saves.
I don't know whether Kirth's rules have been updated, but I'm working on my own "edition" of Kirthfinder personally. I think he basically encourages people to take what they like and run with it, tweaking it to be best for their own group.
Bingo! If people use different personal spinoffs and provide feedback, that's like getting a playtest for variants I hadn't even though of. That's pure gold! Ten different groups playing ten different variants is a more useful and robust model than ten groups trying to emulate my (very idiosyncratic) home game.
I have also been using KF for my local game. Using it pretty much as written, but am running a Paizo AP, and since those give out above expected loot, I've ignored the max cap on mojo.
The max cap on mojo was intended to keep item crafters from spiraling the game out of control, since I don't track gold or down time all that closely -- I just look at total value vs. max and call it good, or cause fate to take some stuff away (in cooperation with the player -- Houstonderek in particular was very diligent about giving away any "crap" that would put him above max, without me having to resort to any kind of deus-ex-machina). In an AP with no crafting and limited down time, abandoning the max cap altogether is not at all unreasonable.
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Though it's never happened to me, I think there's potentially a problem with the mass stacking of Wisdom to everything, and I would have to look closely at that. It seems to move the role of "everything-stat" from Dex to Wis, given a couple of feats.
On the other hand, Reflex saves aren't exactly nothing to sniff at anymore... Most Ref saves will come from evocation spells, which have become VERY scary again with the overall changes to metamagic (pretty much automatic Heighten/Intensify, plus something like Dazing Spell, all the Evocation metamagics, Explosive Spell, etc., is a whole lot of damage with control effects on top). Plus, the wounded penalties make it so you can't just ignore direct damage anymore. Someone neglecting Dexterity by taking all these feats to put all their eggs in one basket is definitely going to have a problem.
I will think about it, though.
On the other hand, Reflex saves aren't exactly nothing to sniff at anymore... Most Ref saves will come from evocation spells, which have become VERY scary again with the overall changes to metamagic... Someone neglecting Dexterity by taking all these feats to put all their eggs in one basket is definitely going to have a problem.
That's an excellent point. To a large extent, elements of "rock-paper-scissors" were intentionally built into the new rules, and Reflex saves vs. evocation is a prime example (note that the rogue automatically succeeds at Reflex saves upon gaining Greater Evasion, a capstone feature that, intentionally, makes them pretty much immune to area-effect blasting and battlefield control). But a rogue is also unlikely to dump Dex for Wis, insofar as he gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
One of these days I'm going to need to draw a flowchart diagram showing which changes feed into which other ones. If I had the time, I'd design and run a rough statistical comparison along the lines of [cost of general immunuty to X, in terms of feats and other limited resources -- i.e., total cost and opportunity cost] x [prevailence of X in game] x [deadliness of X].
Dot
Consolidating extraneous sub-systems:
Fighter's "ant haul" and "stalwart," Barbarians's "restless slumber," and Ranger's "tireless" can be rolled into the Endurance skill (all three of those classes get 1 rank/level for free anyway) on a 1:1 class rank : class level basis.
This change means that fighters now need less sleep, and that barbarians can carry heavier loads, and I'm OK with that.
To spread out fighter abilities over levels, I'd make Bravery scale so that fear effects are reduced by 1 step at 2nd level, 2 steps at 7th, and immunity kicks in at 13th.
Jaegr likes what he sees!
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That's a useful consolidation!
I've really been enjoying using KF in my Council of Thieves game. Although I've been using standard bestiary monsters in most encounters, I've been rebuilding the major villains with KF, and thought I'd share a few of them.
Here are The Graveknight, The Shadowbeast, and The Dealer.
Want to check this out when I get home, so... dotted?
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Hey heliopolix, what was your experience with using standard Bestiary monsters against a Kirthfinder PC party?
Were they weaker than you expected? Stronger?
Did you feel the need to, say, give them better stats or max hp?
Did you rebuild the monsters a little to account for feat chains that don't exist anymore / different saving throws / etc?
It's been a while since I've been able to play Kirthfinder, but my experience was that the relative power level of the PCs is a little more tightly constrained (i.e., they definitely don't need more than 15 point buy) unless you want to rejig the standard monsters a little. Getting into 20 point buy and 25 point buy seems to skew especially early level abilities a little too much.
I'd also be curious to hear from helio on that one.
In most of my adventures, Bestiary monsters are a sideline to the real villains, who almost always have class levels. So I don't really have a good feel for how a "standard" module would go. (I do re-assign the feats for pretty much all the monsters, even when I use ones straight out of the Bestiary. I also like to assign Favored Terrain to critters that are especially narrowly-evolved for one environment, which gives them a minor but credible boost.)
And, yeah, I'd never use 25-point buy!
I started the campaign using PF, and converted over to KF when the characters were 4th level (about a year ago). They have since reached 7th level and have had 1 permanant character death.
About half of my players are using the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), because it was better than what they rolled with 4d6, drop lowest. A couple have comparable rolls, and one had an outstanding set (but doesn't dominate encounters).
I also changed HP from half round up and half round down on alternating levels to just half round up consistently, because it was simpler, and only give a few more hp over a character's lifetime.
Because I'm running an AP and it gives out a ton of equipment, I've eliminated the mojo cap, and they are definitely overgeared. I count their character's CR as 1 higher because of this when modifying encounters (which I already have to do because of 6 players).
My party consists of human fighter (mounted ), human barbarian (dual-scimitar walking whirlwind), human cleric of Sarenrae (fire-slinging devil-slayer), human cleric of Pharasma (healing master of prophecy), fey-touched sorcerer (invisible sprite paragon archer), and halfling rogue (blinding slingstaff sniper).
The fighter puts out scary damage on a single target and has significant mobility with his Nightmare mount. The barbarian is like a force of nature with 4 attacks with her Wrath of the Ancestors: her weapons become Bane when she rages. The sprite is a fey paragon with fly and greater invisibility, and is their primary scout. The Pharasman priest has avoided instant death about 6 times during the campaign with well timed hero points: forcing villains to reroll attacks that would otherwise slay him outright. The other cleric puts out fire area-of affect attacks and slays outsiders with his sword and channeling. The rogue blinds people with his staff and flanks from range, contributing good damage and debuffs.
I build all my converted villains with the standard heroic array, so they are starting from the same point as the heroes. The villians provide them with a good challenge. As a larger party, I always include more low-level cohorts rather than increasing the CR of the boss monster, and that keeps everyone busy.
Most standard monsters have trouble challinging them significantly - they are capable of threatening the clerics and the rogue, but the sorcerer is always invisible and the fighter and barbarian have significant AC.
I convert most monsters on the fly (to include the 4th save), and leave their HP untouched (other than calculating wound threshholds). I add monsters until the encounter CR reaches the average party level. A standard 4 member party of 7th level would have APL 7. Adding 2 members increases that to 8, and I add another level for their extra gear, for a total of 9.
Adding more monsters forces my players to fight tactically, because while their melee members are nigh-invulnerable, they must protect the casters and that creates the dynamic combats I'm looking for.
I'd say that KF has definitely increased the AC martial characters are able to achieve and that basic bestiary creature's attack bonuses are insufficient to significantly threaten them. However, the squishier members of a party are still very much concerned with those attacks and gladly hide behind the meatwalls.
Encounters at chokepoints become trivial, but encounters in open areas, or at least ones with multiple avenues of attack, become harrowing and much more challenging for the KF party.
I'm really looking forward to running a party from level 1 with KF, using the mojo system to keep wealth in check and see how that transpires.
Sounds like a fun party!
I'll admit that the nightmare at 7th level threw me for a minute...
Regarding attack bonuses, at 8th level I'd expect them to be fighting stone giants (+16 atk). With +1 full plate, +1 heavy shield, +2 Dex mod, +2 Dodge, armor training +2, and maybe deflection +2, your fighter's rocking a 33 AC at 7th level, so the giant needs a 17 to hit, which is tough but not impossible... although in the home game, Jess Door's character Sheraviel, using Dex, Canny Defense, Combat Expertise, etc. managed to become basically "un-hittable" by 8th level or so, except on a 20. Sadly, an ogre fighter with a high-crit-multiplier weapon, Critical Focus, and Power Attack put an end to her with one blow, with a lucky 20.
I'll admit that designating "whomever you're fighting" as the bane target when raging hadn't occurred to me -- and it definitely should have. I'm currently tweaking magic weapon pricing a bit (the scaling "+X bonus equivalent" has never really sit well with me, for a number of reasons), and I'll factor that corner-case into the changes. Thanks!
Yeah, mount + leadership gets him the Nightmare. It started out as an Obsidian Steed wondrous item, which advance in HD as he leveled, until he reached the point where he got the CR 5 cohort, then it converted to full nightmare.
The "unhittable" person in my party is actually the barbarian. When not raging, she has +3 dex, +2 insight (canny defense: cha), +2 dodge (Dodge), +6 natural. Her base AC is 23, which is not too bad.
To get the natural armor, she has the Scorpion totem for +2 NA, tribal tattoos (Ancestral Weapon -> armor[tattoo]) that give +4 ehancement NA, she took the fighter's Personal Weapon (armor[tattoo]) talent as a rage power, which improves the natural armor bonus by +1 and gives the Deathless armor power in a rage, and the Beast Hide rage power, which increases her NA by 2. She also has another tattoo that is a standard-action activation to create a whirlwind around her, granting her the Shield spell.
When raging with shield, her stats increase, and the rage powers kick in. Her AC components increase to +5 dex (dex 16->21), +4 insight (cha 14->18), +2 dodge, +9 natural, +4 shield. Her raging AC is 34 which is pretty hard to hit.
In addition, her Dust Devil ability gives her 20% miss chance, and is upkept for free while raging.
She's quite the juggernaut.
OK, wow, I had this brainstorm today... the last consolidation got me thinking. What if all the feats, talents, etc. that provide benefits when you have X ranks in a skill -- what if they were part and parcel of the skill itself, but only if you had sufficient ranks in it as a class skill? I mean Sixth Sense (Perception), Mark of the Wild (Handle Animal), Staredown (Bluff), Ledge Walker (Acrobatics/Athletics), Swift Tracker (Survival), etc...
We could pare down the class skills lists a lot, and all they'd really lose is that +3 class skill bonus, which is easily made up for with enhancement bonuses, aid another, etc.
Skill Focus would simply make a non-class skill into a class skill, so that, for example, a ranger who really wanted to be a trap and golem and magic item disarming guru could take Skill Focus (Disable Device) to get the rogue's "sabotage item" abilities, for example.
This makes the rogue back into a skill monkey simply by virtue of having a large class skills list. It eliminates a lot of feat referencing for the rogue, ranger, and druid. It turns skills from long-scoffed-at afterthoughts into things worth assigning ranks to.
To keep people from just dipping one level of rogue to get them all, there would have to be a caveat that advanced class skill abilities are gained only if you have a number of levels in classes with "X" as a class skill greater than or equal to the number of ranks needed to gain the ability (in other words, a rogue 10/fighter 1 wouldn't gain any ability requiring 11 ranks of Stealth as a class skill, unless he also had Skill Focus).
Thoughts?
I might suggest changing that requirement from 'must have a number of levels equal to the number of ranks required' to 'must have a number of levels equal to 1/2 the number of ranks required.'
... or maybe allow class synergy talents to apply, which in essence does much the same thing (allowing some cross-class ranks from Class X to apply to a skill that's a class skill for Class Y)?
Continuing to do copy-editing as I use the rules. Found an omission.
Sorcerer p. 33
Rakshasa bloodline lists Skill Synergy (Alertness or Persuasive) as a potential bonus feat choice.
Feats p. 9
Skill Synergy feat lists common skill pairs for feat choice. Notably absent is the Alertness example, which would provide bonuses to Bluff [Sense Motive] and Perception.
Continuing to do copy-editing as I use the rules.
Thanks!
Found an omission. Sorcerer p. 33 Rakshasa bloodline lists Skill Synergy (Alertness or Persuasive) as a potential bonus feat choice.
I'll take a look at those tonight -- thanks.
Feats p. 9 Skill Synergy feat lists common skill pairs for feat choice. Notably absent is the Alertness example, which would provide bonuses to Bluff [Sense Motive] and Perception.
Perception is specifically excluded from skills eligible for Skill Synergy, so "Alertness" has gone the way of the dodo. The rationale is much the same as why Superior Inititiative only gives a +2 bonus, instead of an additional +4: some things are just too tempting to jack through the roof. For monsters in the Bestiary with Alertness, I've been giving them Skill Focus (Perception) instead.
...Update For those interested, I've compiled all the documents into one giant (644-page) Word file, to be edited, debugged, and PDFed within the next 1-2 weeks in preparation for printing myself a hardbound rulebook (happy birthday, me!). When the PDF is complete, I'll post that notification here and will be happy to email copies on request. It looks like Best Value Copy will make a printed book for less than Lulu, and they don't have funky page sizes (I can keep everything 8.5 x 11), so I'll probably go that route for printing -- maybe they'll let me set up a password I can send out, if people want to get their own printed as well.
Continuing to do copy-editing as I use the rules.Thanks!
Found an omission. Sorcerer p. 33 Rakshasa bloodline lists Skill Synergy (Alertness or Persuasive) as a potential bonus feat choice.I'll take a look at those tonight -- thanks.
Feats p. 9 Skill Synergy feat lists common skill pairs for feat choice. Notably absent is the Alertness example, which would provide bonuses to Bluff [Sense Motive] and Perception.Perception is specifically excluded from skills eligible for Skill Synergy, so "Alertness" has gone the way of the dodo. The rationale is much the same as why Superior Inititiative only gives a +2 bonus, instead of an additional +4: some things are just too tempting to jack through the roof. For monsters in the Bestiary with Alertness, I've been giving them Skill Focus (Perception) instead.
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Update For those interested, I've compiled all the documents into one giant (644-page) Word file, to be edited, debugged, and PDFed within the next 1-2 weeks in preparation for printing myself a hardbound rulebook (happy birthday, me!). When the PDF is complete, I'll post that notification here and will be happy to email compies on request. It looks like Best Value Copy will make a printed book for less than Lulu, and they don't have funky page sizes (I can keep everything 8.5 x 11), so I'll probably go that route.
awesome. I've always wanted to giver a read through, but its hard to sit in front of ye old computatoe for that long.
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Update For those interested, I've compiled all the documents into one giant (644-page) Word file, to be edited, debugged, and PDFed within the next 1-2 weeks in preparation for printing myself a hardbound rulebook (happy birthday, me!). When the PDF is complete, I'll post that notification here and will be happy to email copies on request.
Large file! My own material is barely 1/10 that size with rough formatting. I'd love to see it when you get it all set up.
Would love to see your compiled version, Kirth! (And... happy birthday? :)
I'll make sure you get a copy -- and thanks, mate!
Awesome -- thanks, TOZ!
Continuing to do copy-editing as I use the rules.Thanks!
Found an omission. Sorcerer p. 33 Rakshasa bloodline lists Skill Synergy (Alertness or Persuasive) as a potential bonus feat choice.I'll take a look at those tonight -- thanks.
Feats p. 9 Skill Synergy feat lists common skill pairs for feat choice. Notably absent is the Alertness example, which would provide bonuses to Bluff [Sense Motive] and Perception.Perception is specifically excluded from skills eligible for Skill Synergy, so "Alertness" has gone the way of the dodo. The rationale is much the same as why Superior Inititiative only gives a +2 bonus, instead of an additional +4: some things are just too tempting to jack through the roof. For monsters in the Bestiary with Alertness, I've been giving them Skill Focus (Perception) instead.
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Update For those interested, I've compiled all the documents into one giant (644-page) Word file, to be edited, debugged, and PDFed within the next 1-2 weeks in preparation for printing myself a hardbound rulebook (happy birthday, me!). When the PDF is complete, I'll post that notification here and will be happy to email copies on request. It looks like Best Value Copy will make a printed book for less than Lulu, and they don't have funky page sizes (I can keep everything 8.5 x 11), so I'll probably go that route for printing -- maybe they'll let me set up a password I can send out, if people want to get their own printed as well.
Thats a good ruling. Should add a sentance to the 'Special:' paragraph indicating Perception isn't a valid choice and remove or alter the Forthright (Diplomacy, Perception) example.
I'd be happy to help with the editing on the final document prior to printing. Let us know about the hardcopy order, as I'm sure several of us would order as well. I know I will!
Definitely interested in that!
Dotting for Interest.
Also interested!
Congratulations on finishing this endeavor. It is amazing to think about how many years this was worked on. I would love to take a look at the final product (and slowly send some editing feedback if there is any left to do). This will be the 5th? edition of these rules I think.
And happy early birthday to you Kirth.
Very interested too!
Found something else:
Faster Base Movement: Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
This paragraph, or something similar, is absent from the KF Athletics skill (which governs jumping). The only bonus for faster speed currently is for passing a Run check to move 5x speed and then subsequently jumping (the jump check gets +4). I do think slower and faster creatures' jump check should be modified based on their speed.
This morning I ordered a hardbound tome from Lulu; I plan to check out the physical book before offering people the option of ordering it that way. Far quicker (and cheaper!) is for me to simply send you the full PDF.
So, anyone wanting a PDF of the rules, go ahead and leave your email addy here, and I'll do a mass mailing sometime next weekend, given the opportunity.
Thanks for the interest!
This morning I ordered a hardbound tome from Lulu; I plan to check out the physical book before offering people the option of ordering it that way. Far quicker (and cheaper!) is for me to simply send you the full PDF.
So, anyone wanting a PDF of the rules, go ahead and leave your email addy here, and I'll do a mass mailing sometime next weekend, given the opportunity.
Thanks for the interest!
Really interesting rules, I'd like to see the full document.
