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Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

3,251 to 3,261 of 3,261 << first < prev | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | next > last >>

How are various abilities and talents backwards compatible? there are so many ideas that I liked whilst also being enough that I was against (wizards going back to D4, Paladins being Prestige, the fact that some abilities seemed so ridiculously complex that I'm unsure about trying to run it, the Endurance skill, insight separate from will and being a 6th stat, wisdom going to ranged attacks) to make me want to see if I could use some 'base' pathfinder and mix some rules in.

WARNING: I MIGHT GET RANTY SO I WANT TO SAY THAT I REALLY DO LIKE THE IDEAS BEHIND KIRTHFINDER BUT I'VE ALSO BEEN INCREDIBLY CONFUSED

1: I want to put a bit more emphasis on why I think that wisdom to ranged attacks is an awful idea, because though you've taken steps to make sure that martials get their time in the spotlight, I'm terrified of what a Cleric (or any 3/4 bab spellcaster with wisdom, Spheres of Power thaumaturge anyone?) with wisdom being able to make the archer eat his bow even more than normal. and I think that it quashes a bit of character a bit (why can't I be the charming hot headed rogue and still use a bow? I want to be robin hood from men in tights damnit)

2: I wanted to say how much I adored the consolidated weapons for the mostpart, although I'm a bit annoyed that we can't get something ala crossbow mastery to get that last bit of reload off the heavy crossbow.

3: having mentioned speheres of power (I know someone already mentioned it but I will too) how can that fit into kirth? especially with how differently sorcerer bloodlines work (and my propensity to mix in incanter into my builds for those sweet sweet bloodline + sphere specialization bonuses)


Typos:

  • Confusing Blow has some confusing wording (I don't think I have mentioned this before) BAB + 6 effect removes the save, and BAB + 11 and BAB +16 add it back in.
  • Transmutable Memory in Wizard has a typo; 9 spell levels are given up and 10 are gained.
  • Summon Item in the Bonded Object summary (Wizard Appendix A) should say “The object can be” rather than “The weapon can be”.
  • Lead the Charge (Feat) has a line saying the damage dealt is based on the number of ranks in K. Warfare, whichever is lower; currently there is no comparison for whichever is lower to apply to.

Questions:

1. Do all spells in KF assume a save, when bringing in a spell without one? For example, in Pathfinder, Frigid touch does not have a saving throw (and staggers on a hit). KF version is a metamagicked Ray of Frost with Slow added as a rider, and is explicitly given a save vs the staggered condition.

2. Skirmish gives a bonus to AC of Vital Strike Dice for speed of 40’ or higher; is this for the duration of Movement vs AoO caused by movement, or against any attack from the start of movement to the end (included counters/ripostes), or for one round vs all attacks? It says “while performing this maneuver”, but I am not clear if that is only on my turn, or for the duration of the round.

3. Potions, per the Craft: Alchemy Skill, have any choices made at creation. Does this mean that a potion of Resist Energy, for example, is actually a Potion of Resist Energy (Fire) and functionally different from a Potion of Resist Energy (Cold)?

4. Unskittering Spell has a call out for a +1 weapon property bypassing deflection, while the Unskittering Attack feat ignores 1 point of deflection +1 per 3 points of BAB… Is one of these the “preferred” method for weapons, since KF tries to move away from +X equivalent bonuses? (ie, Level * 2000 for adding a feat to a weapon vs the +1 in Unskittering Spell)

5. Which version of Divine Power is present in KF, for things like the Incarnate Battle Mystery revelation of the same name? The Pathfinder one that does not affect BAB, or the 3.5 one that does?

6. In a more general sense, is there a preference for one edition's version of a spell over another when significant changes are made? Death Ward, for example, changed a lot between 3.5 and PF.

7. Discrepancy: The Strikes section in Ch. 5 says that a strike may be added to, among other things, the sneak attack of a rogue with the opportune strike class feature. In the Rogue section, under sneak attack: Synergy, it says that a strike may be added to a sneak attack that successfully deals damage. Which is complete? Can a Ranger or Fighter with sneak attack add a strike to the confirmed hit, or do they need a level of Rogue for Opportune Strike to do so?


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@Warriorking9001

1. I Think It's necessary for a few reasons.

- Wisdom as a stat doesn't have a lot going for it due to perception being nerfed and it no longer applying to will saves.

- Bow feats scale with BAB so pure martial will be getting more value out of rapid shot, point blank shot etc.

- Magical talent exists, so if the marital wants to have access to divine power or favor they can.

- Reflexive shot exists so a rogue can still shoot a bow using dexterity if he so chooses (crossbow would actually be ideal in my opinion)

- Base cleric (and druid for that matter) are kind of meh in my opinion anyways so if they are marginally better at using a bow so be it I don't see them beating a Ranger in terms of DPR.

@ River of Sticks

2. It think when preforming the maneuver means while your moving / using your full movement, so basically +Ac vs any Aoo's provoked while moving like mobility.

3. That sounds right as that's the case with Potions in Pathfinder too. A potion of Resist energy already has the energy type chosen on creation.

5,6. This also is of interest to me, for example 3.5's mind-blank's effects are cited in the equipment section.

7. Personally I'd keep that Rogue exclusive probably? As Sneak attacking is the Rogues thing he should probably be better at it than Rangers/Fighters who already have other types of combat advantages.


Firewarrior44 wrote:

@Warriorking9001

1. I Think It's necessary for a few reasons.

- Wisdom as a stat doesn't have a lot going for it due to perception being nerfed and it no longer applying to will saves.

- Bow feats scale with BAB so pure martial will be getting more value out of rapid shot, point blank shot etc.

- Magical talent exists, so if the marital wants to have access to divine power or favor they can.

- Reflexive shot exists so a rogue can still shoot a bow using dexterity if he so chooses (crossbow would actually be ideal in my opinion)

- Base cleric (and druid for that matter) are kind of meh in my opinion anyways so if they are marginally better at using a bow so be it I don't see them beating a Ranger in terms of DPR.

Okay, I guess that makes a lot of sense. I'm just worried about the idea that a number of builds would be a bit more MAD than usual (For a specific example, the 'arcane archer' needs Dex for AC because they're lightly armored at best, Str for damage on composite longbow, or to even be able to shoot a crossbow if I understand right, Wisdom to hit, intelligence or charisma to cast spells, and Constitution is the stat I personally would never want to have below 10, but prefer a 12 minimum, meaning that they need decent to high scores in all but one ability score).

- Also... Magical Talent? I looked in the kirthfinder pdf I have and only found a racial Spell-like for Dwarves, maybe mine's outdated, though I got it from what I thought was the official google drives.

- I admit that not noticing reflexive shot was entirely on me, as I haven't gone through the entire almost 600 page player's guide in complete detail as of yet.

- I'm quite surprised to hear someone say that clerics and druids are 'meh' since I'm so used to people saying how awesome they are in PF, with Clerics apparently being able to make the fighter 'eat his sword'.

- on top of ALL of that... perception was nerfed? again admittedly this is still under pretense since I've always heard about it being the 'most rolled skill in the game'.

Though now with the discussion under way...

I still want to know why the Paladin has become a prestige class. I ask this because my absolute favorite class and general archetype to play (The hero chosen by the gods to do good for the world, wielding their power against those who would do wrong) Granted I know that 95% of people wouldn't have any real issue with this (and hell maybe my negativity stands from my propensity to gestalt), but I don't usually think about the idea of multiclassing, when setting up builds I usually tend to stay to one class to fully scale all of its abilities to the maximum.


I had never realized Potions were written that way... That's actually pretty frustrating for Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, but it gets really bad for something like Lesser Restoration... You lost 3 points of Int from an attack dealing temporary damage, but you only have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (Cure 1d4 Dex) on hand... Another thread established that Lesser Restoration has 12 RAW variants. Potions like Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, etc are also hit hard - Oops, I grabbed my Potion of Disguise Self (Town Watch), not my Potion of Disguise Self (Local Thug). Now the undercity is trying to kill me.

Does it break anything to drop that requirement? Or at least make it mutable on drinking with a skill check, or caster level check if the spell is on your own list? The one advantage a potion has for non-casters is not needing to have any skill - they just drink it. That's fine. But it seems ridiculous for someone with skill/talent to be stuck with the same restrictions. I realize scrolls address some of that, but potions are so much cooler!

(Also, I noticed that you can enhance a potion at (EDIT: Wrong rank) 1 rank of Craft: Alchemy, but require 11 ranks in K. Linguistics to enhance a scroll. If Kirth cares to comment, is this based on spell-completion vs potion-swallowing differences, or intended differences in how scrolls/potions affect in-game resources?)


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Here's the files i'm referencing unsure if you're looking at the older versions or not

Arcane Archer could take Canny defense for any mental stat to AC, or dodge for a scaling dodge bonus but yes they'd be more mad depending on how they were built.

Crossbows strength rating isn't how much strength you need to fire it (as it uses pulleys) it's just how much bonus damage it innately does.

"Crossbows work similarly to bows, except their Strength is mechanical (through winding) rather than limited by the user’s Strength"

So a heavy crossbow does 1d8 + 5 in the hands of both a peasant or barbarian feats non withstanding.

In addition Reflexive shot removes the necessity of needing wisdom at all (and it can be purchased for 2,000 Numen although they wont get the scaling bonuses) and even lets you get dexterity to damage which alleviates the need for high Strength.

Perception is only really useful in finding people using the stealth skill spotting traps has been moved to other skills (disable device and spell-craft)

"Talent, Magical" is what it's called in the PDF's iirc. Basically it's a choose your own spell like abilities feat that scales off of concentration eventually becoming at-will which lets anyone pick up a few key buff spells.

I find Druid meh when compared to the Incarnate as they have more interesting stuff.

For Clerics it's more they lack any interesting class features and have no feats. The Can still be decent but the full round cast times on all spells and ability to be totally shut down by a sundering of their holy symbol (removes all casting ability) coupled with their limited spell selection (all bonus spells from high wisdom must be domain spells) makes them unappealing.

Also feats are rather powerful and i find the fighter having a Glut of them rather good at elevating their combat performance in addition to the martial classes built in damage boosts.

Also a Fighter (or any full BAB martial) can use Mage's Disjunction at-will as a strike at level 11 so there's that too.

__________

Paladin moving to a PRC was done for a few reasons. Firstly Kirth has dramatically reduced the role of alignment I think the cleric is the only one (outside of a few bloodlines / variable things) that even effectively has an alignment.

In addition if you look at the PRC it'self it's been broadened / made more inclusive, it's multiple archetypes allow for several classes to gain Paladin powers that synergize with their base abilities.

Class synergy is a big thing in this system and you are not punished for multi classing and or it's much easier to do without being punished. For example the "Martial Champion" Paladin Archetype makes all paladin levels count towards fighter levels for scaling purposes.

If you want to play a Pathfinder paladin you can emulate most of it's class features with fighter/cleric multi-class though, as The fighter talent Grace grants Cha to saves, Guarded Attributes makes you nigh immune to disease or at the very least highly resilient And the Challenge Talent is effectively smite evil (except on any target).


River of Sticks wrote:

I had never realized Potions were written that way... That's actually pretty frustrating for Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, but it gets really bad for something like Lesser Restoration... You lost 3 points of Int from an attack dealing temporary damage, but you only have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (Cure 1d4 Dex) on hand... Another thread established that Lesser Restoration has 12 RAW variants. Potions like Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, etc are also hit hard - Oops, I grabbed my Potion of Disguise Self (Town Watch), not my Potion of Disguise Self (Local Thug). Now the undercity is trying to kill me.

Does it break anything to drop that requirement? Or at least make it mutable on drinking with a skill check, or caster level check if the spell is on your own list? The one advantage a potion has for non-casters is not needing to have any skill - they just drink it. That's fine. But it seems ridiculous for someone with skill/talent to be stuck with the same restrictions. I realize scrolls address some of that, but potions are so much cooler!

(Also, I noticed that you can enhance a potion at (EDIT: Wrong rank) 1 rank of Craft: Alchemy, but require 11 ranks in K. Linguistics to enhance a scroll. If Kirth cares to comment, is this based on spell-completion vs potion-swallowing differences, or intended differences in how scrolls/potions affect in-game resources?)

Wow haha never thought of the repercussions like that, that's really unfortunate for restoration.

The alter self potion reminds me Of Harry Potter and the Polyjuice potion when Hermione became cat people.


River of Sticks wrote:


1. Do all spells in KF assume a save, when bringing in a spell without one? For example, in Pathfinder, Frigid touch does not have a saving throw (and staggers on a hit). KF version is a metamagicked Ray of Frost with Slow added as a rider, and is explicitly given a save vs the staggered condition.

2. Skirmish gives a bonus to AC of Vital Strike Dice for speed of 40’ or higher; is this for (a) the duration of Movement vs AoO caused by movement, or (b) against any attack from the start of movement to the end (included counters/ripostes), or (c) for one round vs all attacks? It says “while performing this maneuver”, but I am not clear if that is only on my turn, or for the duration of the round.

3. Potions, per the Craft: Alchemy Skill, have any choices made at creation. Does this mean that a potion of Resist Energy, for example, is actually a Potion of Resist Energy (Fire) and functionally different from a Potion of Resist Energy (Cold)?

4. Unskittering Spell has a call out for a +1 weapon property bypassing deflection, while the Unskittering Attack feat ignores 1 point of deflection +1 per 3 points of BAB… Is one of these the “preferred” method for weapons, since KF tries to move away from +X equivalent bonuses? (ie, Level * 2000 for adding a feat to a weapon vs the +1 in Unskittering Spell)

5. Which version of Divine Power is present in KF, for things like the Incarnate Battle Mystery revelation of the same name? The Pathfinder one that does not affect BAB, or the 3.5 one that does?

6. In a more general sense, is there a preference for one edition's version of a spell over another when significant changes are made? Death Ward, for example, changed a lot between 3.5 and PF.

7. Discrepancy: The Strikes section in Ch. 5 says that a strike may be added to, among other things, the sneak attack of a rogue with the opportune strike class feature. In the Rogue section, under sneak attack: Synergy, it says that a strike may be added to a sneak attack that successfully deals damage. Which is complete? Can a Ranger or Fighter with sneak attack add a strike to the confirmed hit, or do they need a level of Rogue for Opportune Strike to do so?

Thanks for the typo catches! Please keep 'em coming!

In answer to your questions:

1. Depends on how they're built; the revised Spells chapter (almost done) has pretty well clarified that now.
2. (b)
3. Yes, correct. There is a "Variable Spell" metamagic feat that would allow you to choose upon drinking. To address FW, restoration end up working somewhat differently than it does in PF, due to the proliferation of attribute-damaging effects.
4. Unskittering Spell currently has no reference to a weapon property that I can see. And a search for "Unskittering" in Chapter 6 indicates correct feat pricing.
5. See #1.
6. See #1.
7. They'd need Opportune Strike as well. The rogue text doesn't call that out because the rogue automatically has it already, but you're right -- I should clarify there, too.


Warriorking9001 wrote:
1: I want to put a bit more emphasis on why I think that wisdom to ranged attacks is an awful idea, because though you've taken steps to make sure that martials get their time in the spotlight, I'm terrified of what a Cleric with wisdom being able to make the archer eat his bow even more than normal. and I think that it quashes a bit of character a bit (why can't I be the charming hot headed rogue and still use a bow? I want to be robin hood from men in tights damnit)

FW answered all of this as I would have done. Thanks!

Warriorking9001 wrote:
I wanted to say how much I adored the consolidated weapons for the most part, although I'm a bit annoyed that we can't get something ala crossbow mastery to get that last bit of reload off the heavy crossbow.

Crossbows get better Exotic use abilities and also more mileage out of Deadly Aim feat. A single shot from a heavy crossbow can easily deal +12d6 damage at BAB +16 (or at BAB +11, by also taking Feat Mastery). The whole point of crossbows is that they don't need to attack as often to be just as useful.

Warriorking9001 wrote:
3: having mentioned spheres of power (I know someone already mentioned it but I will too) how can that fit into kirth?

People keep asking me that (see previous pages), and I always answer "I have no idea." I don't own Spheres of Power and I designed without any reference to it (indeed, my sorcerer revisions predate it by something like 5 years).


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Re: "One Punch Man," finished S1. I love the level systems they have; Tiger-Demon-Dragon-God definitions seem to go pretty well with CR 1/6/11/16, and it's fun to have a similar in-world system for the heroes (Class C, B, A, and S, albeit at lower CR ratings than the monsters except for Telekinesis Brat and Genos).


Warriorking9001 wrote:
I'm just worried about the idea that a number of builds would be a bit more MAD than usual

Let me clarify that that was an explicit design goal -- to make all six stats more or less equally valuable, and to make all classes more or less equally MAD. I can't say that either sub-goal has been totally fulfilled, but steps in that direction were taken quite deliberately.

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