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Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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How are various abilities and talents backwards compatible? there are so many ideas that I liked whilst also being enough that I was against (wizards going back to D4, Paladins being Prestige, the fact that some abilities seemed so ridiculously complex that I'm unsure about trying to run it, the Endurance skill, insight separate from will and being a 6th stat, wisdom going to ranged attacks) to make me want to see if I could use some 'base' pathfinder and mix some rules in.

WARNING: I MIGHT GET RANTY SO I WANT TO SAY THAT I REALLY DO LIKE THE IDEAS BEHIND KIRTHFINDER BUT I'VE ALSO BEEN INCREDIBLY CONFUSED

1: I want to put a bit more emphasis on why I think that wisdom to ranged attacks is an awful idea, because though you've taken steps to make sure that martials get their time in the spotlight, I'm terrified of what a Cleric (or any 3/4 bab spellcaster with wisdom, Spheres of Power thaumaturge anyone?) with wisdom being able to make the archer eat his bow even more than normal. and I think that it quashes a bit of character a bit (why can't I be the charming hot headed rogue and still use a bow? I want to be robin hood from men in tights damnit)

2: I wanted to say how much I adored the consolidated weapons for the mostpart, although I'm a bit annoyed that we can't get something ala crossbow mastery to get that last bit of reload off the heavy crossbow.

3: having mentioned speheres of power (I know someone already mentioned it but I will too) how can that fit into kirth? especially with how differently sorcerer bloodlines work (and my propensity to mix in incanter into my builds for those sweet sweet bloodline + sphere specialization bonuses)


Typos:

  • Confusing Blow has some confusing wording (I don't think I have mentioned this before) BAB + 6 effect removes the save, and BAB + 11 and BAB +16 add it back in.
  • Transmutable Memory in Wizard has a typo; 9 spell levels are given up and 10 are gained.
  • Summon Item in the Bonded Object summary (Wizard Appendix A) should say “The object can be” rather than “The weapon can be”.
  • Lead the Charge (Feat) has a line saying the damage dealt is based on the number of ranks in K. Warfare, whichever is lower; currently there is no comparison for whichever is lower to apply to.

Questions:

1. Do all spells in KF assume a save, when bringing in a spell without one? For example, in Pathfinder, Frigid touch does not have a saving throw (and staggers on a hit). KF version is a metamagicked Ray of Frost with Slow added as a rider, and is explicitly given a save vs the staggered condition.

2. Skirmish gives a bonus to AC of Vital Strike Dice for speed of 40’ or higher; is this for the duration of Movement vs AoO caused by movement, or against any attack from the start of movement to the end (included counters/ripostes), or for one round vs all attacks? It says “while performing this maneuver”, but I am not clear if that is only on my turn, or for the duration of the round.

3. Potions, per the Craft: Alchemy Skill, have any choices made at creation. Does this mean that a potion of Resist Energy, for example, is actually a Potion of Resist Energy (Fire) and functionally different from a Potion of Resist Energy (Cold)?

4. Unskittering Spell has a call out for a +1 weapon property bypassing deflection, while the Unskittering Attack feat ignores 1 point of deflection +1 per 3 points of BAB… Is one of these the “preferred” method for weapons, since KF tries to move away from +X equivalent bonuses? (ie, Level * 2000 for adding a feat to a weapon vs the +1 in Unskittering Spell)

5. Which version of Divine Power is present in KF, for things like the Incarnate Battle Mystery revelation of the same name? The Pathfinder one that does not affect BAB, or the 3.5 one that does?

6. In a more general sense, is there a preference for one edition's version of a spell over another when significant changes are made? Death Ward, for example, changed a lot between 3.5 and PF.

7. Discrepancy: The Strikes section in Ch. 5 says that a strike may be added to, among other things, the sneak attack of a rogue with the opportune strike class feature. In the Rogue section, under sneak attack: Synergy, it says that a strike may be added to a sneak attack that successfully deals damage. Which is complete? Can a Ranger or Fighter with sneak attack add a strike to the confirmed hit, or do they need a level of Rogue for Opportune Strike to do so?


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@Warriorking9001

1. I Think It's necessary for a few reasons.

- Wisdom as a stat doesn't have a lot going for it due to perception being nerfed and it no longer applying to will saves.

- Bow feats scale with BAB so pure martial will be getting more value out of rapid shot, point blank shot etc.

- Magical talent exists, so if the marital wants to have access to divine power or favor they can.

- Reflexive shot exists so a rogue can still shoot a bow using dexterity if he so chooses (crossbow would actually be ideal in my opinion)

- Base cleric (and druid for that matter) are kind of meh in my opinion anyways so if they are marginally better at using a bow so be it I don't see them beating a Ranger in terms of DPR.

@ River of Sticks

2. It think when preforming the maneuver means while your moving / using your full movement, so basically +Ac vs any Aoo's provoked while moving like mobility.

3. That sounds right as that's the case with Potions in Pathfinder too. A potion of Resist energy already has the energy type chosen on creation.

5,6. This also is of interest to me, for example 3.5's mind-blank's effects are cited in the equipment section.

7. Personally I'd keep that Rogue exclusive probably? As Sneak attacking is the Rogues thing he should probably be better at it than Rangers/Fighters who already have other types of combat advantages.


Firewarrior44 wrote:

@Warriorking9001

1. I Think It's necessary for a few reasons.

- Wisdom as a stat doesn't have a lot going for it due to perception being nerfed and it no longer applying to will saves.

- Bow feats scale with BAB so pure martial will be getting more value out of rapid shot, point blank shot etc.

- Magical talent exists, so if the marital wants to have access to divine power or favor they can.

- Reflexive shot exists so a rogue can still shoot a bow using dexterity if he so chooses (crossbow would actually be ideal in my opinion)

- Base cleric (and druid for that matter) are kind of meh in my opinion anyways so if they are marginally better at using a bow so be it I don't see them beating a Ranger in terms of DPR.

Okay, I guess that makes a lot of sense. I'm just worried about the idea that a number of builds would be a bit more MAD than usual (For a specific example, the 'arcane archer' needs Dex for AC because they're lightly armored at best, Str for damage on composite longbow, or to even be able to shoot a crossbow if I understand right, Wisdom to hit, intelligence or charisma to cast spells, and Constitution is the stat I personally would never want to have below 10, but prefer a 12 minimum, meaning that they need decent to high scores in all but one ability score).

- Also... Magical Talent? I looked in the kirthfinder pdf I have and only found a racial Spell-like for Dwarves, maybe mine's outdated, though I got it from what I thought was the official google drives.

- I admit that not noticing reflexive shot was entirely on me, as I haven't gone through the entire almost 600 page player's guide in complete detail as of yet.

- I'm quite surprised to hear someone say that clerics and druids are 'meh' since I'm so used to people saying how awesome they are in PF, with Clerics apparently being able to make the fighter 'eat his sword'.

- on top of ALL of that... perception was nerfed? again admittedly this is still under pretense since I've always heard about it being the 'most rolled skill in the game'.

Though now with the discussion under way...

I still want to know why the Paladin has become a prestige class. I ask this because my absolute favorite class and general archetype to play (The hero chosen by the gods to do good for the world, wielding their power against those who would do wrong) Granted I know that 95% of people wouldn't have any real issue with this (and hell maybe my negativity stands from my propensity to gestalt), but I don't usually think about the idea of multiclassing, when setting up builds I usually tend to stay to one class to fully scale all of its abilities to the maximum.


I had never realized Potions were written that way... That's actually pretty frustrating for Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, but it gets really bad for something like Lesser Restoration... You lost 3 points of Int from an attack dealing temporary damage, but you only have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (Cure 1d4 Dex) on hand... Another thread established that Lesser Restoration has 12 RAW variants. Potions like Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, etc are also hit hard - Oops, I grabbed my Potion of Disguise Self (Town Watch), not my Potion of Disguise Self (Local Thug). Now the undercity is trying to kill me.

Does it break anything to drop that requirement? Or at least make it mutable on drinking with a skill check, or caster level check if the spell is on your own list? The one advantage a potion has for non-casters is not needing to have any skill - they just drink it. That's fine. But it seems ridiculous for someone with skill/talent to be stuck with the same restrictions. I realize scrolls address some of that, but potions are so much cooler!

(Also, I noticed that you can enhance a potion at (EDIT: Wrong rank) 1 rank of Craft: Alchemy, but require 11 ranks in K. Linguistics to enhance a scroll. If Kirth cares to comment, is this based on spell-completion vs potion-swallowing differences, or intended differences in how scrolls/potions affect in-game resources?)


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Here's the files i'm referencing unsure if you're looking at the older versions or not

Arcane Archer could take Canny defense for any mental stat to AC, or dodge for a scaling dodge bonus but yes they'd be more mad depending on how they were built.

Crossbows strength rating isn't how much strength you need to fire it (as it uses pulleys) it's just how much bonus damage it innately does.

"Crossbows work similarly to bows, except their Strength is mechanical (through winding) rather than limited by the user’s Strength"

So a heavy crossbow does 1d8 + 5 in the hands of both a peasant or barbarian feats non withstanding.

In addition Reflexive shot removes the necessity of needing wisdom at all (and it can be purchased for 2,000 Numen although they wont get the scaling bonuses) and even lets you get dexterity to damage which alleviates the need for high Strength.

Perception is only really useful in finding people using the stealth skill spotting traps has been moved to other skills (disable device and spell-craft)

"Talent, Magical" is what it's called in the PDF's iirc. Basically it's a choose your own spell like abilities feat that scales off of concentration eventually becoming at-will which lets anyone pick up a few key buff spells.

I find Druid meh when compared to the Incarnate as they have more interesting stuff.

For Clerics it's more they lack any interesting class features and have no feats. The Can still be decent but the full round cast times on all spells and ability to be totally shut down by a sundering of their holy symbol (removes all casting ability) coupled with their limited spell selection (all bonus spells from high wisdom must be domain spells) makes them unappealing.

Also feats are rather powerful and i find the fighter having a Glut of them rather good at elevating their combat performance in addition to the martial classes built in damage boosts.

Also a Fighter (or any full BAB martial) can use Mage's Disjunction at-will as a strike at level 11 so there's that too.

__________

Paladin moving to a PRC was done for a few reasons. Firstly Kirth has dramatically reduced the role of alignment I think the cleric is the only one (outside of a few bloodlines / variable things) that even effectively has an alignment.

In addition if you look at the PRC it'self it's been broadened / made more inclusive, it's multiple archetypes allow for several classes to gain Paladin powers that synergize with their base abilities.

Class synergy is a big thing in this system and you are not punished for multi classing and or it's much easier to do without being punished. For example the "Martial Champion" Paladin Archetype makes all paladin levels count towards fighter levels for scaling purposes.

If you want to play a Pathfinder paladin you can emulate most of it's class features with fighter/cleric multi-class though, as The fighter talent Grace grants Cha to saves, Guarded Attributes makes you nigh immune to disease or at the very least highly resilient And the Challenge Talent is effectively smite evil (except on any target).


River of Sticks wrote:

I had never realized Potions were written that way... That's actually pretty frustrating for Resist Energy/Protection from Energy, but it gets really bad for something like Lesser Restoration... You lost 3 points of Int from an attack dealing temporary damage, but you only have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (Cure 1d4 Dex) on hand... Another thread established that Lesser Restoration has 12 RAW variants. Potions like Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, etc are also hit hard - Oops, I grabbed my Potion of Disguise Self (Town Watch), not my Potion of Disguise Self (Local Thug). Now the undercity is trying to kill me.

Does it break anything to drop that requirement? Or at least make it mutable on drinking with a skill check, or caster level check if the spell is on your own list? The one advantage a potion has for non-casters is not needing to have any skill - they just drink it. That's fine. But it seems ridiculous for someone with skill/talent to be stuck with the same restrictions. I realize scrolls address some of that, but potions are so much cooler!

(Also, I noticed that you can enhance a potion at (EDIT: Wrong rank) 1 rank of Craft: Alchemy, but require 11 ranks in K. Linguistics to enhance a scroll. If Kirth cares to comment, is this based on spell-completion vs potion-swallowing differences, or intended differences in how scrolls/potions affect in-game resources?)

Wow haha never thought of the repercussions like that, that's really unfortunate for restoration.

The alter self potion reminds me Of Harry Potter and the Polyjuice potion when Hermione became cat people.


River of Sticks wrote:


1. Do all spells in KF assume a save, when bringing in a spell without one? For example, in Pathfinder, Frigid touch does not have a saving throw (and staggers on a hit). KF version is a metamagicked Ray of Frost with Slow added as a rider, and is explicitly given a save vs the staggered condition.

2. Skirmish gives a bonus to AC of Vital Strike Dice for speed of 40’ or higher; is this for (a) the duration of Movement vs AoO caused by movement, or (b) against any attack from the start of movement to the end (included counters/ripostes), or (c) for one round vs all attacks? It says “while performing this maneuver”, but I am not clear if that is only on my turn, or for the duration of the round.

3. Potions, per the Craft: Alchemy Skill, have any choices made at creation. Does this mean that a potion of Resist Energy, for example, is actually a Potion of Resist Energy (Fire) and functionally different from a Potion of Resist Energy (Cold)?

4. Unskittering Spell has a call out for a +1 weapon property bypassing deflection, while the Unskittering Attack feat ignores 1 point of deflection +1 per 3 points of BAB… Is one of these the “preferred” method for weapons, since KF tries to move away from +X equivalent bonuses? (ie, Level * 2000 for adding a feat to a weapon vs the +1 in Unskittering Spell)

5. Which version of Divine Power is present in KF, for things like the Incarnate Battle Mystery revelation of the same name? The Pathfinder one that does not affect BAB, or the 3.5 one that does?

6. In a more general sense, is there a preference for one edition's version of a spell over another when significant changes are made? Death Ward, for example, changed a lot between 3.5 and PF.

7. Discrepancy: The Strikes section in Ch. 5 says that a strike may be added to, among other things, the sneak attack of a rogue with the opportune strike class feature. In the Rogue section, under sneak attack: Synergy, it says that a strike may be added to a sneak attack that successfully deals damage. Which is complete? Can a Ranger or Fighter with sneak attack add a strike to the confirmed hit, or do they need a level of Rogue for Opportune Strike to do so?

Thanks for the typo catches! Please keep 'em coming!

In answer to your questions:

1. Depends on how they're built; the revised Spells chapter (almost done) has pretty well clarified that now.
2. (b)
3. Yes, correct. There is a "Variable Spell" metamagic feat that would allow you to choose upon drinking. To address FW, restoration end up working somewhat differently than it does in PF, due to the proliferation of attribute-damaging effects.
4. Unskittering Spell currently has no reference to a weapon property that I can see. And a search for "Unskittering" in Chapter 6 indicates correct feat pricing.
5. See #1.
6. See #1.
7. They'd need Opportune Strike as well. The rogue text doesn't call that out because the rogue automatically has it already, but you're right -- I should clarify there, too.


Warriorking9001 wrote:
1: I want to put a bit more emphasis on why I think that wisdom to ranged attacks is an awful idea, because though you've taken steps to make sure that martials get their time in the spotlight, I'm terrified of what a Cleric with wisdom being able to make the archer eat his bow even more than normal. and I think that it quashes a bit of character a bit (why can't I be the charming hot headed rogue and still use a bow? I want to be robin hood from men in tights damnit)

FW answered all of this as I would have done. Thanks!

Warriorking9001 wrote:
I wanted to say how much I adored the consolidated weapons for the most part, although I'm a bit annoyed that we can't get something ala crossbow mastery to get that last bit of reload off the heavy crossbow.

Crossbows get better Exotic use abilities and also more mileage out of Deadly Aim feat. A single shot from a heavy crossbow can easily deal +12d6 damage at BAB +16 (or at BAB +11, by also taking Feat Mastery). The whole point of crossbows is that they don't need to attack as often to be just as useful.

Warriorking9001 wrote:
3: having mentioned spheres of power (I know someone already mentioned it but I will too) how can that fit into kirth?

People keep asking me that (see previous pages), and I always answer "I have no idea." I don't own Spheres of Power and I designed without any reference to it (indeed, my sorcerer revisions predate it by something like 5 years).


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Re: "One Punch Man," finished S1. I love the level systems they have; Tiger-Demon-Dragon-God definitions seem to go pretty well with CR 1/6/11/16, and it's fun to have a similar in-world system for the heroes (Class C, B, A, and S, albeit at lower CR ratings than the monsters except for Telekinesis Brat and Genos).


Warriorking9001 wrote:
I'm just worried about the idea that a number of builds would be a bit more MAD than usual

Let me clarify that that was an explicit design goal -- to make all six stats more or less equally valuable, and to make all classes more or less equally MAD. I can't say that either sub-goal has been totally fulfilled, but steps in that direction were taken quite deliberately.


River of Sticks wrote:
For example, in Pathfinder, Frigid touch does not have a saving throw (and staggers on a hit). KF version is a metamagicked Ray of Frost with Slow added as a rider, and is explicitly given a save vs the staggered condition.

Sneak preview:

Frigid TouchUM: Ray of frost (0 level) + Cascade Spell (stagger; +3 levels) + Reach Spell (close to touch; -1 level) + Inexorable Evocation (+3 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 2nd level; damage cap 5d6 and staggered 1 rd./level (save each round after the first to end effect).


River of Sticks wrote:
5. Which version of Divine Power is present in KF, for things like the Incarnate Battle Mystery revelation of the same name? The Pathfinder one that does not affect BAB, or the 3.5 one that does?

This is what I've got so far:

Divine Power: Attribute boost (Str; 0 level) + Augment Spell (+6 to Str; +4 levels) + Extend Spell (1 min./level to 1 rd./level; -1 level) + Cascade Spell (spark of life; +1 level) + Augment Spell (+1/level; +1 level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 1d6; -2 levels) + Cascade Spell (haste; +3 levels) + Personal Spell (-1 level) + Restricted Spell (access to War domain; -1 level) = 4th level; you are hasted and gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength and 1d6 +1/level temporary hp.


I have no idea what Augment Spell is or what it does. It doesn't seem to be on the document. Also, Extend Spell decreasing duration by one step is listed as a +0 to spell level, not a -1.

Apparently you need to decrease it by 2 steps to get a -1 out of Extend Spell. That said, let me see if I understand the metamagic rules correctly, and take a crack at Divine Power:

First, if you could use Extend Spell to reduce an hour/level spell to a round/level spell, then it should give you at least a -2 spell level cost, no? Or should this not be allowed, since changing the duration of an hour/level spell is nowhere on the Extend Spell table?

At any rate, if you could do that, you could get a Round/level version of False Life that counts as a zero level spell.

After that, cascade both Level 3 Haste and the De-Extended False Life to Level 1 Divine Favor, which is the "base spell" you choose to get heightened. Thus, the static +3 maximum of Divine Favor increases with spell level to a maximum of +6 at spell level 4.

Of course, because you heighten Divine Favor, False Life doesn't get Heightened and thus likely doesn't give you as much temp HP. At spell level 0, it likely only ever gives you 1d10 + 2 temp HP.

Alternatively, you could start with False Life as your base spell to heighten, then you could get the proper amount of Temp HP, but at the cost of the Cascaded Divine Favor only ever getting to +3. Is that correct?


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Kaouse wrote:
I have no idea what Augment Spell is or what it does. It doesn't seem to be on the document. Also, Extend Spell decreasing duration by one step is listed as a +0 to spell level, not a -1. At spell level 0, it likely only ever gives you 1d10 + 2 temp HP.

This is an issue of too many moving parts -- without releasing the full revisions, I can see examples are profoundly unhelpful. I anticipate that in a month or so, a (more or less) complete revision of the Spells chapter, plus an additional Spells Grimoire showing conversions of non-core spells, will be ready for review.


Looking forward to the revised Spells chapter! Very excited to see new changes.

A question/request: do you plan on having some kind of progression or explanation of limited-use conjuration spells? There's Minor and Major Creation, of course, and Fabricate - all of which can do just about anything - but I mean something more limited like a cantrip or first level spell that creates a rope, or a hammer or crowbar, or lockpicks, simple toolkit type stuff. Not necessarily even all from the same spell or super flexible, but always there when you need it. Like maybe a cantrip for Armoror's Kit - can conjure a hammer, anvil, awl, etc from force for the purpose of repair or crafting, and unsuitable as a weapon. I know some 3rd Party stuff has things like this, and I've wanted de-leveled versions of Minor Creation ever since I saw it.


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River of Sticks wrote:
A question/request: do you plan on having some kind of progression or explanation of limited-use conjuration spells? There's Minor and Major Creation, of course, and Fabricate - all of which can do just about anything - but I mean something more limited like a cantrip or first level spell that creates a rope, or a hammer or crowbar, or lockpicks, simple toolkit type stuff. Not necessarily even all from the same spell or super flexible, but always there when you need it. Like maybe a cantrip for Armoror's Kit - can conjure a hammer, anvil, awl, etc from force for the purpose of repair or crafting, and unsuitable as a weapon. I know some 3rd Party stuff has things like this, and I've wanted de-leveled versions of Minor Creation ever since I saw it.

I think the creation "seed spell" and its examples may have what you're looking for.


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Hopefully I can provide enough context to better answer RoS and have it actually make sense:

Spoiler:
CREATION
School: Conjuration [creation]
Level: arcane 3, divine 3, druidic 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: standard
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: no more than 1 cu. ft./level of a single nonliving, mundane, harmless substance
Duration: 1 hour/level or less (see text)
Saving Throw: none; SR no
Description: creates lump or pool of a single substance. The duration is reduced by 1 step (to 10 min./level) for precious metals/gems, and by 2 steps (to 1 rd./metal) for rare metals. An appropriate Craft check is needed to shape the material into more than a mere lump.
Improvement: Widen Spell; other metamagic.

  • Create Food and Water: Creation (3rd level) + Variable Spell (food and water; +1 level) + Specific Spell (food and water only; -1 level) + Ritual Spell (-2 levels) = 1st level. The food goes bad (and the drink evaporates) after 1 hour/level if not consumed.
  • Create Water: Creation (3rd level) + Object-Specific Spell (plain water only; -2 levels) + Widen Spell (1 cu. ft./level to 1/8 cu. ft./level; -1 level) = 0 level; creates 1 gallon/level. The water is either eliminated or sweat out (if consumed), or evaporates (otherwise) after 1 hour/level.
  • Creation, Major: Creation (3rd level) + Variable Spell (multiple materials; +1 level) + Ritual Spell (-2 levels) = 2nd level spell (rather than 5th).
  • Creation, Minor: Creation (3rd level) + Ritual Spell (full round; -1 level) = 2nd level (rather than 4th).
  • Leomund’s Secure Shelter: Creation (3rd level) + Object-Specific Spell (cottage only; -2 levels) + Extend Spell (1 hr./level to 2 hrs./level; +1 level) + Widen Spell (1 cf/level to 25 cf/level.; +2 levels) + Cascade Spell (arcane lock; +2 levels) + Cascade Spell (alarm; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (unseen servant; +1 level) + Location-Specific Spell (arcane lock only on door and shutters, alarm only on door, shutter, chimney; -2 levels) + Ritual Spell (-2 levels) = 4th level.
  • Wall of Iron: Creation (3rd level) + Object-Specific Spell (iron; -2 levels) + Widen Spell (1 cu. ft./level to 3 cu. ft./level; +1 level) + Reach Spell (0 to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (volume to wall; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (energy mace; +1 level) = 5th level; can be tipped over, potentially dealing up to 15d6 bludgeoning damage (Reflex half).
  • Wall of Stone: Creation (3rd level) + Object-Specific Spell (stone only; -2 levels) + Widen Spell (1 cu. ft./level to 3 cu. ft./level; +1 level) + Reach Spell (0 to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (volume to wall; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (bind: can capture opponent; +1 level) = 5th level; wall lasts 1 hour/level unless invested with numen (use latent spell effect pricing: spell level x caster level x 50).
  • You might construct a spell something like this:

    Conjure Tool:

    Spoiler:
    Creation (3rd level) + Object-Specific Spell (mundane object of low value only; -2 levels) + Variable Spell (choose tool conjured; +1 level) + Extend Spell (1 hr./level to 1 min./level; -2 levels) + Cascade Spell (skill enhancement: Craft; +1 level) = 1st level. Conjures a single simple, mundane (non-masterwork) tool within the volume limit shown, lasting 1 min./level before disappearing. The spell grants you a Craft check of +1/2 levels (max. 5) even if you have no ranks; if this check is failed, the conjured tool is broken or unusable.


    Kirth: Awesome! That example is EXACTLY what I would love to have. I really like your approach to spells with "seed" starting points and growing it from there, and hope Paizo has a few more "coincident evolutions" of game design similar to this direction.

    It's probably too much a rewrite to fit into Pathfinder/3.5, but I've been playing with the idea of seed spells being the only spells "known" (among other things), and having the ability to add metamagic on the fly with a caster level check (no increased casting time) as the "normal" method for casting. Certain metamagics or scales would be gated by ability score, so extending the range of a spell to long might require 18 in the casting stat while Line of Sight would require 22, etc. The tradeoff would be not needing a feat to get the basics - time, range, area, duration, number of targets - and a (much?) lower total number of spells known. As well as needing a sufficient number and variety of "seeds". Preparing a specific version of the spell would give a total level reduction vs preparing the seed and setting it on the fly.

    I'm also a maths and crunch type of person, so my preferences would definitely not fit some groups!


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    Besides the example, you can always "just happen" to find useful tools lying around all over the place by making DC 20 Planar Sense checks, if you have 6 ranks and the Power over Shadow feat.


    From the Creation spell seed example above, are nonliving, mundane, and harmless system keywords or are they general English vocabulary?


    Caedwyr wrote:
    From the Creation spell seed example above, are nonliving, mundane, and harmless system keywords or are they general English vocabulary?

    "Non-living" is both.

    "Mundane" is English, but for game purposes we can presume it to mean non-magical, non-extraplanar, and non-unique. "Harmless" is English, and hopefully isn't open to too much confusion.


    Thanks for the clarification.


    Can specialist wizards cast spells from barred schools? The way it's written seems to imply that they just can't use spell slots from high INT.

    Quote:
    Spellcasting: You prepare and cast spells as a standard wizard. Additional spells from high Intelligence can be of any school except a barred school (see below). For example, a 1st level Abjurer with a 15 Intelligence could prepare one 1st level abjuration spell (his school spell; see below) and one 1st level spell from a non-prohibited school (his additional 1st level spell due to high Intelligence).

    It seems a bit meaningless as a distinction if you can spend your regular spell slots on spells from barred schools.


    Kaouse wrote:
    Can specialist wizards cast spells from barred schools? The way it's written seems to imply that they just can't use spell slots from high INT:
    KF wrote:
    Additional spells from high Intelligence can be of any school except a barred school (see below).

    The "see below" part isn't really optional; it refers you to the text explaining how barred schools work, under Arcane School:

    Kirthfinder wrote:
    You cannot learn, prepare, or cast spells from barred schools without the Spell Reprieve feat (q.v.). To use spell trigger items for barred schools, you must succeed at relevant Spellcraft checks, as if you had no spellcasting ability.


    Thanks for pointing that out. I must have missed that.


    Question: Does a Rogue with Opportune Strike and who successfully sneak attacks, and has Two Weapon Strike and hits with both primary and off hand attacks, apply one Strike or or two to the attacks?


    River of Sticks wrote:
    Question: Does a Rogue with Opportune Strike and who successfully sneak attacks, and has Two Weapon Strike and hits with both primary and off hand attacks, apply one Strike or or two to the attacks?

    One, unless you have Striking Mastery. Having more opportunities in-game to successfully apply a strike =/= getting more strikes in one round.

    Grand Lodge

    Do you know anyone running a Kirthfinder campaign right now and might be looking for players?


    If you're in H-Town, I might be tempted to start one...

    Grand Lodge

    You mean the city of Houston in Texas? Hmm, sadly I live in Utah.


    Jonathon Wilder wrote:
    You mean the city of Houston in Texas? Hmm, sadly I live in Utah.

    Yes, and, oh. For what it's worth, I have a sister-in-law in SLC who loves it there.


    Have you heard of Roll20.net? It allows you to play Pathfinder(/Kirthfinder) online. That way you can play with people who AREN'T in Houston!

    Grand Lodge

    Utah I feel is a pretty nice place to live, though since I have lived there all my life it does lead me to go elsewhere and explore. I know so little of the world.

    Also, Kaouse brings up a good point. Roll20.net is actually a really good place to roleplay even if you have players all living in different places. Better still it supports map use, shading so to have very interesting effects involving shadows and lighing, dice rolling which can be tailored to what needs to be rolled and labeled as such,music even, and with a library of images that can be used for set pieces, PCs and NPCs.

    All in all, Roll20.net has a lot of cool features even though I have not had the chance to use most of them.


    Kaouse wrote:
    Have you heard of Roll20.net? It allows you to play Pathfinder(/Kirthfinder) online. That way you can play with people who AREN'T in Houston!

    Andostre and TOZ have asked me about that as well -- unfortunately it's blocked at work, and my home computer is about ready for the scrapyard (screen saver = blue screen of death! Lol).


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Can confirm roll20 is great, may or may not have 8,000 hours on it .... and or a problem >_>


    If the Spells chapter is getting a rework, may I suggest the creation of Level 0 "seed spells" that can be metamagic'd to produce new powerful effects?

    Then, you could just give casters some number of free seed cantrips, then force them to use metamagic feats in order to build up spells in a more modular fashion.

    This method of spellcasting mirrors the feat requirements of martial classes, but it also gives casters more freedom in controlling their magic. At the same time, the progression feels like a more natural increase in power, alleviating a bit of the "linear warriors, quadratic wizard" standard.

    Then, maybe you won't need to reference Pathfinder/3.5 material anymore and can host everything on a wiki...


    That's more or less what's going on -- although not all the seeds are 0-level, they're all pretty low level (in some cases, you can tack on metamagic restrictions in order to get to 0 level). But, yes, part of the idea is to remove a lot of the casters' "free spells" and put them to work building their own.

    A secondary goal is to allow the DM to quickly assess whether new spells from 3pp sources are reasonably balanced. At home I've been going through Sword & Sorcery's Relics & Rituals and re-building the spells from seeds and metamagic; a lot of the spells that "felt" overpowered (just by gut, from first reading) have come out to be several levels higher, and some of the "meh" ones ("Why would I take this, again?") end up lower-level and/or more utile when rebuilt.

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