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Help me build a Mystic Theurge


Advice

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I have decided to build a Mystic Theurge in a level 16 game my friend is running. Since I have 16 levels to play with, and as such I don't have to slog through all the annoying levels, I want to try and have some fun with this class.

I know that Wizard/Cleric would be more efficient, but I am kind of interested in trying a Sorcerer/Oracle. So, as is often the case of posting on the forums, I have a few questions.

1: Would playing a Sorcerer/Oracle at this level really hurt?

2: What suggestions do people have about the build. I know that it would be a suboptimal build, but I would like to Optimize this as much as possible, as my GM runs a very optimized game.

3: Does this look infected, and should I go to a hospital to get it looked at?


Ok, here's how I see it.
First, your casting stat for sorceror/oracle is charisma/charisma. That helps. Typical mystic theurges have 2 casting stats.

You need 4 levels of sorceror and 4 levels of oracle to qualify. That hurts.
You'll be Sorceror4/Oracle4/Mystic Theurge 8. That will give you a cast level of 12 in both classes. That's 2 spell levels behind as a sorceror
Remember that your MT levels will only advance your spell progression and spells known. That means you're not going to get most of the oracle goodies.
You can recover some of your cast level with the magical knack trait, perhaps even practiced spellcaster if your GM allows that feat.

The mystic theurge is already a somewhat less than optimal class. It is best in the hands of a player that is somewhat more adept than the rest of the players in the party if the other members of the party are fairly optimized (i.e., optimized at around the level of DPR olympics but less so than the typical optimization guide character builds). Going sorceror/oracle is going to hurt quite a bit. Have you considered sorceror/cleric? Charisma is still useful for clerics and that'd make you Sorceror4/cleric3/MT9. The problem is the Wizard/Priest MT is really coming into his own at W3/C3/MT10 at the level you've chosen.


Magus6/Cleric3/Theurge7

Magus 6 for broad study.

Spellstrike with Slay Living. Harm next level.

Buff yourself in order to up your BAB with priest spells.


The problem with your proposed build is that you are leaving a bunch of the perks behind. There are two kinds of primary caster, the regular kind (cleric, Wizard) and the kind with perks (Sorcerer, Witch, Druid, Oracle). The kind with perks only amplifies the pain of going Theurge because you have allot more that you lose when you take the class. All of those defining bloodline abilities, hexes and perks go away and you get to keep all of the penalties. I love the Mystic Theurge class and I gotta say, in my optimization guide, a Sorcerer and Oracle would be bright red, Witch and Druid can be finagled pretty well

I cringe a little when people refer to the first 7 levels of a Mystic Theurge as the "Annoying levels", to me the first 7-10 levels are the best levels, even if they are awkward and formative. Making a 16th level character is harder because you don't get the feel for the campaign and thus don't have as much an idea of what feats and spells work best.

A couple of pointers: Magical Knack is the single most important trait to take, If your GM will let you take it twice, do it, if your GM will let you take it four times do it. Craft Feats are a little stronger for you because you have such a wide variety of spells, Buffing spells are also your forte, this makes Extend spell the best Metamagic for you, I would really go for passive feats that add bonuses to your spellcasting, I find a conjureation focus really helps with Theurges.

I like Arcane/Lore for synergy, I recommend the bonded object over the familiar. You can make the Familiar track your character level but it takes allot of feats and is a pain in the ass. Take the free extra spell and conditional item creation feat.


Building a proper Mystic Theurge depends almost entirely on the material allowed. There's some good 3.x stuff without which I wouldn't consider playing the class.

Incidentally, I'm currently playing a Sorcerer (shadow) 4 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Mystic Theurge 6.


Sorcerer/Oracle is really going to hurt for two reasons. 1, it leaves you with 2 fewer MT levels than a wizard/cleric, and 2, the spontaneous casting classes won't benefit from their "free spells" and will struggle with spells known. In fact, you'll only have 1 sixth level spell known for each of your casting classes, plus Cure/inflict wounds. This is also why the prepared classes have a better go at mystic theurge.

There's a specific brand of sorcerer (empyreal, sub of celestial) changes your casting stat to Wisdom, so you can pair it up rather successfully with any of the other divine casting classes. It'll let you keep half of your combo, the feel of spontaneous magic, and still get the benefits of a prepared caster- and you only need 1 spellcasting stat! This also nets you 3 sixth level spells on your divine side (2+domain) and two known spells on your sorcerer side.

If you absolutely can't be persuaded by logic (and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you're getting yourself into) your best bet is to pursue metamagic feats. Heighten spell is going to be great, since you'll have an excellent casting stat and can afford to cast offensively. Pick a theme for your character in combat: buffs, battlefield control, debuffs, save-or-die, etc. You've got enough spells known in your lower spell levels, 1-4, to grab some great utility. Spend all of your money making that casting stat stupidly high. Grab a +6 charisma item, the best tome of +cha you can afford, an orange prism ion stone (+1 caster level), get some minor defensive items, and spend the rest on rods of quicken spell.

Seriously, rods of lesser quicken spell. 35k means that you can spend a swift action casting any of your 1-3 level spells, which is half your list. That's two spells a round, and all the more reason to be a mystic theurge. If you're going to explore a clearly suboptimal choice, and that's what a mystic theurge is, you need to focus on it's one saving grace: lots and lots of spell slots. Pick up the quicken spell feat as well, because you've got spell slots to blow. If you do it right you can have the whole table looking on you in awe.


Ambrus wrote:

Building a proper Mystic Theurge depends almost entirely on the material allowed. There's some good 3.x stuff without which I wouldn't consider playing the class.

Incidentally, I'm currently playing a Sorcerer (shadow) 4 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Mystic Theurge 6.

Using alternate spell source or whatever it's called to qualify on the divine side?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Using alternate spell source or whatever it's called to qualify on the divine side?

Yes. The Alternate Source Spell feat and Magical Knack trait, both from Paizo, along with WotC's Practiced Spellcaster feat make for a viable, though feat intensive, Sorcerer/Oracle Eldritch Theurge.


Sorcerer(Empyreal) 4 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 9

Not sure if this is the most optimized option or not, i just found it to be quite a cool concept for a character. Sadly it lacks 1 level to get the most awesome ability a Mystic Theurge has...


The most optimum Mystic Therge I've come up with uses WotC 3.5 products (Races of Destiny & Heroes of Horror), specifically the Illumian running with Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Therge 10 at 16th level.
Caster level on both Arcane/Divine = 16 with only a 1 feat overhead (Powerful Runes).

Both clases are INT based casters and you can continue to improve some of the archivist's class ability as they are all based on Knowledge skills.


A witch can be a powerful MT, imho

Hexes that do something to you aeem better for this type of build, the other hexes based on level with saves never increasing are going to be a problem in the long run......

Disguise (Su): A witch can change her appearance for a number of hours per day equal to her class level, as if using disguise self. These hours do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-hour increments.

Feral Speech (Su): This hex grants the witch the ability to speak with and understand the response of any animal as if using speak with animals, though each time she uses the hex, she must decide to communicate with either amphibians, birds, fish, mammals, or reptiles, and can only speak to and understand animals of that type. The witch can make herself understood as far as her voice carries. This hex does not predispose any animal so addressed toward the witch in any way. At 12th level, the witch can use this hex to communicate with vermin. Source: Ultimate Magic

Flight (Su): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

Nails (Ex): The witch’s nails are long and sharp, and count as natural weapons that deal 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). These attacks are secondary attacks. If trimmed, the witch’s nails regrow to their normal size in 1d4 days. Source: Ultimate Magic

Poison Steep (Sp): The witch can use her cauldron to brew a foul toxin in which she can steep fruits and other delicious edibles, transforming them so that when eaten, they have the same effect as a poison spell. Brewing the toxin and then steeping the food takes 1 hour in total; steeping can affect up to 1 pound of food. The food is poisoned for 24 hours, and the poison cannot be transferred to other objects. The food tastes normal, but magic detects it as poisonous. The witch must have the cauldron hex to select this hex. Source: Ultimate Magic

Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch’s head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows. Source: Ultimate Magic

Swamp Hag (Sp): While traveling through swamps, mires, bogs, and similar terrain, the witch leaves no trail and cannot be tracked, as the trackless step druid ability. The witch can walk through mud and even quicksand as if it were normal ground. Source: Ultimate Magic

Tongues (Su): A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as comprehend languages. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. At 5th level, a witch can use this ability to speak any language, as per tongues.

Water Lung (Su): An air-breathing target can breathe water or an aquatic target can breathe air. This lasts 1 minute. If the witch uses this hex on herself, she can maintain it while she sleeps, allowing her to safely sleep underwater. Source: Ultimate Magic

As for divine, how about a druid ;)


A couple of notes for a witch theurge:

Go for a flying familiar, so when trouble hits it can fly the crap away and be less of a risk of you losing your living spellbook.

You can use the Eldtrich Heritage feat to get the Arcane bloodline's familiar ability to track your character level rather than your witch level. Unfortunately its a feat heavy patch.

Another patch is to go witch/druid and take a domain that grants a familiar (Frog, Eagle, Monkey and Serpent), this allows you to get your familiar to 6th level, then pop the boon companion feat at about 7th. This will get your pet to 10th level.

Eventually Paizo will give in and there will be a feat that makes your familiar track with your character level but until then thats all I got.


what book is the alternate source spell feat in?


skrahen wrote:
what book is the alternate source spell feat in?

Dragon Magazine 325, page 61.

If this feat was designed for some purpose beyond making the mystic theurge viable I have yet to figure out what it might be.


Ambrus wrote:
skrahen wrote:
what book is the alternate source spell feat in?

Dragon Magazine 325, page 61.

If this feat was designed for some purpose beyond making the mystic theurge viable I have yet to figure out what it might be.

should i assume then it has not been reprinted in any of the paizo source material? just curious where it fits in in the scheme of things.


skrahen wrote:
should i assume then it has not been reprinted in any of the paizo source material? just curious where it fits in in the scheme of things.

It was produced by the fine folks at Paizo for use in D&D 3.5; which Pathfinder was in turn intended to be compatible with. Make of that what you will. To my knowledge, it has never been reprinted.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

I have always thought the Oracle/ Sorcerer Mystic Theurge would be fun for flavor reasons.

Unfortunately as previous posters have pointed out you get hosed on spell level access.

For example, Oracle/ Sorcerers gain acces to 2nd lvl spells at 4th level, 3rd level spells at 6th level, 4th level spells at 8th level, 5th level spells at 10 level. That's for a single class character.

the Sorcerer/ Oracle Mystic Theurge is effectively four levels behind a single classed sorcerer/ oracle for spell access.

For example, single class gets access to 3rd level spells at 6th level, a mystic theurge would gain acess to third level spells at 10 level.

The only "viable " way to do that class combo would be to use the Gestalt rules out of Unearthed Arcana. These rules essentially allow you to advance in two classes at once.

but lots of good advice here. I doubt i could add much more.


How about a Druid /Sorcerer (Conjuration Focus)...I was thinking of playing one and dont see many major drwbacks


if you play with 3.5 stuff and thake the feat practices spellcaster, then your build is not so bad. Because the bloodline arcana improve your oracle spellcasting.

If you only play with only pathfinder books then the wizard/cleric or wizard/druid would be a better option.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
thomas nelson wrote:

A couple of notes for a witch theurge:

Go for a flying familiar, so when trouble hits it can fly the crap away and be less of a risk of you losing your living spellbook.

You can use the Eldtrich Heritage feat to get the Arcane bloodline's familiar ability to track your character level rather than your witch level. Unfortunately its a feat heavy patch.

Another patch is to go witch/druid and take a domain that grants a familiar (Frog, Eagle, Monkey and Serpent), this allows you to get your familiar to 6th level, then pop the boon companion feat at about 7th. This will get your pet to 10th level.

Eventually Paizo will give in and there will be a feat that makes your familiar track with your character level but until then thats all I got.

I would make the point that the Witch is already a Mystic Theurge at level 1.


LazarX wrote:
thomas nelson wrote:

A couple of notes for a witch theurge:

Go for a flying familiar, so when trouble hits it can fly the crap away and be less of a risk of you losing your living spellbook.

You can use the Eldtrich Heritage feat to get the Arcane bloodline's familiar ability to track your character level rather than your witch level. Unfortunately its a feat heavy patch.

Another patch is to go witch/druid and take a domain that grants a familiar (Frog, Eagle, Monkey and Serpent), this allows you to get your familiar to 6th level, then pop the boon companion feat at about 7th. This will get your pet to 10th level.

Eventually Paizo will give in and there will be a feat that makes your familiar track with your character level but until then thats all I got.

I would make the point that the Witch is already a Mystic Theurge at level 1.

Not really, your spell list is lacking compared to someone who draws from two classes.


A single-class Oracle with the Trait "Dangerously Curious" would have Use Magic Device as a class skill. At 16th level, you could start with a "fist-full" of wands that makes your character feel like he's multi-classed.

Taldor

But wand DC's suck.

How about a Dwarf Celestial bloodline Sorceror/Druid? You can use high wisdom for both of your castings, reducing MAD significantly while boosting your second best stat and enjoying the handy benefits of Dwarfdom; as well as having a limited ability to channel energy despite no cleric levels.

Link


There is currently no feat, trait or class ability that makes using sorcerer or oracle as one of your seed classes for mystic theurge worthwhile.


rat_ bastard wrote:


Not really, your spell list is lacking compared to someone who draws from two classes.

Lacking is the wrong word. Limited might be a bit better.

But with the core witch list, plus a Patron for focus, there is no one thing a Witch can't do well; they just can't do it all. But there are patrons for Buffing, there are patrons for defenses, there are patrons for control (they dont need a patron for debuffing or control though, really), there's one for full on healing replacement, one for shapeshifting, one for necromancy, and there's even at least one that enable's blasting. Heck, one has Planar Ally. Another has Miracle. Again, on top of the diverse core witch spell list, which has good divine and arcane representation.

They are a much better Theurge in play IMO than the Theurge prestige class.

Andoran

LazarX wrote:
I would make the point that the Witch is already a Mystic Theurge at level 1.

When I saw this thread I wondered how long it would take before I saw this post. I'm actually surprised it came as late as it did.

That said, I do believe it is a valid point.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I would make the point that the Witch is already a Mystic Theurge at level 1.

When I saw this thread I wondered how long it would take before I saw this post. I'm actually surprised it came as late as it did.

That said, I do believe it is a valid point.

You don't get the full load of spells that the main classes do, but you get payoff a lot sooner.

That said, if one is determined to go Mystic Theurge, doing two spontaneous casters is the route of extremely delayed pay off, and more levels of not doing that well. My preferred entry route would be Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid.

Cheliax

If you're going to play a Mystic Theurge may as well be able to do the Spell Synthesis (a better once per day quicken). To do that you need the fastest route, Wiz (Or Witch) 3 / Cler 3 / Theurge 10. It gives you a perfect setup... 7th level spells in both classes, Spell Synthesis, and some strong domain powers. Playing the other classes would lower your spell avail with little benefit; save working off one stat instead of 2.

If you're going to play the power game might as well see true power :).

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

I was running a campaign through the Hook Mountains and since their was 6 of them, I had to add a couple of new siblings. So I made Death Baby Graul. Gravewalker Witch lvl 3/Menhir Savant Druid lvl 3/Mystic Theurge 2. Gave her a couple of vermin swarms [can't remember the type], and an advance zombie or three made my Mammy and she basically tore through the party.

The swarms and undead kept them at bay and the Spell Poppet ability meant I didn't need to worry about a Familiar and could use touch attacks at range.

Her Ogrekin limitation of Deformed Hand was reduced by her Prehensile Hair. Fierce Visage was a nice add on.

Place magic was a nice bonus to help out with the lower level spells she was throwing out.

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TClifford wrote:

I was running a campaign through the Hook Mountains and since their was 6 of them, I had to add a couple of new siblings. So I made Death Baby Graul. Gravewalker Witch lvl 3/Menhir Savant Druid lvl 3/Mystic Theurge 2. Gave her a couple of vermin swarms [can't remember the type], and an advance zombie or three made my Mammy and she basically tore through the party.

The swarms and undead kept them at bay and the Spell Poppet ability meant I didn't need to worry about a Familiar and could use touch attacks at range.

Her Ogrekin limitation of Deformed Hand was reduced by her Prehensile Hair. Fierce Visage was a nice add on.

Place magic was a nice bonus to help out with the lower level spells she was throwing out.

You know, flavorwise I am drawn to the witch Druid combo, and the ability to spontaneously summon help never hurts a caster either, that to me is the Druids most over looked strength. An experienced player who knows thier way around a Druid can give a DM a case of the eye ball twitches. So IF MT Druid would be my choice, for the ability to summon allies whenever deemed it warranted. That with a few summoning feats (spell focus conj, augment summoning, superior summoning, and extend spell) makes for one scary PC, then add in the witch abilities - I might take fly so that I could stay away from melee, then drop spells and summons all fight long.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Lex Talinis wrote:
TClifford wrote:

I was running a campaign through the Hook Mountains and since their was 6 of them, I had to add a couple of new siblings. So I made Death Baby Graul. Gravewalker Witch lvl 3/Menhir Savant Druid lvl 3/Mystic Theurge 2. Gave her a couple of vermin swarms [can't remember the type], and an advance zombie or three made my Mammy and she basically tore through the party.

The swarms and undead kept them at bay and the Spell Poppet ability meant I didn't need to worry about a Familiar and could use touch attacks at range.

Her Ogrekin limitation of Deformed Hand was reduced by her Prehensile Hair. Fierce Visage was a nice add on.

Place magic was a nice bonus to help out with the lower level spells she was throwing out.

You know, flavorwise I am drawn to the witch Druid combo, and the ability to spontaneously summon help never hurts a caster either, that to me is the Druids most over looked strength. An experienced player who knows thier way around a Druid can give a DM a case of the eye ball twitches. So IF MT Druid would be my choice, for the ability to summon allies whenever deemed it warranted. That with a few summoning feats (spell focus conj, augment summoning, superior summoning, and extend spell) makes for one scary PC, then add in the witch abilities - I might take fly so that I could stay away from melee, then drop spells and summons all fight long.

A lot of folks tend to overlook the power of a Druid that's focused just on casting.

Cheliax

For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight. You also don't get any free spells except the 2nd from patron.

Andoran

Remember, the nature allies will be significantly weaker than if cast by a single level druid.

If you're going druid, I'd heavily recommend taking a domain, the extra spell / level will do you much better than a non-scaling animal companion.

Cheliax

You don't improve domains or get higher level spells as a Theurge either. But a domain ability is better than a 3rd level animal companion.

Lantern Lodge

ShadowcatX wrote:
Remember, the nature allies will be significantly weaker than if cast by a single level druid.

I already adressed that.

Lex Talinis wrote:
...That with a few summoning feats (spell focus conj, augment summoning, superior summoning, and extend spell...

So even with the loss of a couple of levels of effective Druid levels the summoned creatures would be more powerful then standard casting at full level and stick around longer, and if they invested in a scribe scroll (Contriversial I know) they could stockpile the summons ;)

Lantern Lodge

Thalin wrote:
For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.

incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.

Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?

Cheliax

Oh I'm not knocking the Theurge at high levels; they have cool tricks and a wide variety; and 8th / 9th level spells aren't truly needed for godlike power. Was just pointing out limitations, though I forgot about Levitate @ 3.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Lex Talinis wrote:
Thalin wrote:
For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.

incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.

Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?

Plus, who is to say that you don't go back and pick up 4 more lvls as Witch after you max out the Mystic?

Basically, the idea came to me because I wanted to make a Mystic Theurge that wasn't your classic Wiz/Cleric. Looking at the spell tables only Witch and Druid were viable options. Added bonus was I could add it into the campaign in a logical manner. The archtypes came into play mostly as flavor.

Lantern Lodge

Thalin wrote:

Oh I'm not knocking the Theurge at high levels; they have cool tricks and a wide variety; and 8th / 9th level spells aren't truly needed for godlike power. Was just pointing out limitations, though I forgot about Levitate @ 3.

I understand, but I didn't feel that a case had been made for the strengths yet either. Admittedly a person takes the MT for flavor, not optimization. But there is nothing wrong with that, and many times everything right with it. I'd rather have players at my table having fun and into thier characters then feeling bound to specific builds for "optimization," at the end of the day the story is the canvas and they characters are the medium by which the DM and players make art (hopefully).

Lantern Lodge

TClifford wrote:
Lex Talinis wrote:
Thalin wrote:
For witch you never advance beyond 3, so you get feather fall, but never flight.

incorrect, reread the witch entry, you get levitate at third level, which is enough to move you out of melee combat range and let you drop spells and summons as previously stated. Feather fall is at first level and fly is at fith. But by MT2 they can cast Fly anyways, so they get a free levitate to avoid melee combat. So who cares that they wouldn't get it as a class ability until lvl 19, at that point it is entirely immaterial. They can sport a magic rug or other item to do the same thing at that point.

Re: patron spells, reasonable sacrifice to gain the ability sitting at MT10. Why complain about losing 9 spells when you gain an entire second spell list and the ability to intermingle them freely?

Plus, who is to say that you don't go back and pick up 4 more lvls as Witch after you max out the Mystic?

Basically, the idea came to me because I wanted to make a Mystic Theurge that wasn't your classic Wiz/Cleric. Looking at the spell tables only Witch and Druid were viable options. Added bonus was I could add it into the campaign in a logical manner. The archtypes came into play mostly as flavor.

Very true, you could at the sacrifice of Druid spells, and if that is less important to the player, then go for it! I think the build appeals to me on multiple levels, it gets you in the MT class quickly but is has substantial flavor.

Shadow Lodge

Just remember, those suggesting witch/wizard, you don't get your free spells/level known added to your familiar/spellbook as a MT. You'll only be gaining spells from copying scrolls/another's spellbook.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I always thought a Warmage*/Cleric would be an interesting combo for a Mystic Theurge. The Warmage part can dish out damage and the Cleric side can heal and handle a fair number of utility spells. I'd like to see one in action anyway. (Oh, and she can wear light or possibly medium? armor with no chance of arcane spell failure--not the worst build in the world, certainly).

*From 3.5's "The Complete Arcane"

Silver Crusade

+1 to Witch level 16 as the best type of MT.

If your set on MT.
Cleric 3 : There is no reason to take another class. Oracle delays your access to MT. Druid has some nice spells but most of them are on the Wizard spell list. That means Wis can be your secondary casting stat. Using divine spells for buffing, and healing.
Wizard 3 : There is no reason to take another class. Sorcerer delays your access to MT. Witch guts your spell list and adds some divine spells that you have any how as a cleric. Using Int as your main casting stat. This is where all your offensive spells come from.
MT 10 : Because you want to be a MT.

If you want to be a single casting stat MT.
Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 4 / MT 8

Your max spell level at 16.
Witch : 8
Cleric/Wizard/MT : 7
Oracle/Sorcerer/MT : 6


Just ran some numbers and thought I might share them with the group. The biggest sell of the mystic theurge is the ability to cast more spells per day than anyone else, right? There's also the benefit of combining two different casting types (arcane, divine), but with the variety of spellcasters around these days and access to Use Magic Device it can safely be said that this feature can be emulated in other ways. So, spells per day- that's the big push.

MTs know that they're going to lag behind a few levels when it comes to casting, so pointing out that they're ~2 levels behind a same level caster isn't productive. What we can do instead is examine the amount of spells these characters can pump out.

Base Variables:
I chose to go with four separate levels that played to the Mystic Theurge's Strengths: 6, 10, 16, and 20. At each level I chose the most likely ability score for a character who was optimizing her casting stat but not sacrificing in other areas. Single-classed characters were calculated with a casting stat of 20, 24, 28, and 34. Dual-classed characters were assumed to be raising both stats equally and were calculated with a casting stat of 16, 18, 22, and 26. The wizard is a specialist, and can be substituted for a cleric or domain druid. The sorcerer can be substituted for an oracle. The mystic theurge is a combination of specialist wizard and cleric (or domain druid).

6th level: The wizard casts 15 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 18 per day, and the mystic theurge casts 14.

10th level: The wizard casts 29 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 34 spells, and the mystic theurge casts 36.

16th level: The wizard casts 50 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 58, and the mystic theurge casts 74.

20th level: The wizard casts 66 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 75, and the mystic theurge casts 91 spells per day (if she went 13/17 split, otherwise it's 92 for a 15/15 split).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How about a druid/sorcerer with the sage archetype from UM.

Primary caster stat of wisdom for both sides
Combination of spontanious and any on list prepared spells
Decent healing abilities
As stated above, pick a domain instead of a animal. Between the domain power and the bloodline power you can shoot a lot of fire darts and fire rays (for example, and admittably not super efficient at 16th level).


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Just ran some numbers and thought I might share them with the group. The biggest sell of the mystic theurge is the ability to cast more spells per day than anyone else, right? There's also the benefit of combining two different casting types (arcane, divine), but with the variety of spellcasters around these days and access to Use Magic Device it can safely be said that this feature can be emulated in other ways. So, spells per day- that's the big push.

MTs know that they're going to lag behind a few levels when it comes to casting, so pointing out that they're ~2 levels behind a same level caster isn't productive. What we can do instead is examine the amount of spells these characters can pump out.

** spoiler omitted **

6th level: The wizard casts 15 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 18 per day, and the mystic theurge casts 14.

10th level: The wizard casts 29 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 34 spells, and the mystic theurge casts 36.

16th level: The wizard casts 50 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 58, and the mystic theurge casts 74.

20th level: The wizard casts 66 spells per day, the sorcerer casts 75, and the mystic theurge casts 91 spells per day (if she went 13/17 split, otherwise it's 92 for a 15/15 split).

Personally I think the biggest draw is drawing from two different spell lists. But due to the lack of a domain spell or specialist spell the gap of spells per day is even larger when compared to the witch.


Just a thought, but if you want a sorc/oracle stlye mystic theurge then you should check out this class by super genius games. It is pretty much that, but you know, good.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

Okay, I only came up with the Witch/Druid/TM as a cool character idea, but let’s for debate purposes compare it to Wiz/Cleric/TM [BTW, I still don’t care what anyone says, none of the other classes even compare to these two because of the nerfed Spell tables]. For the purposes of this debate we are only dealing with getting to TM so I am only comparing 3rd lvl with each class. There are too many other variables to come into play after lvl 16.

Druid vs. Cleric
• Each of them have the same Hit Dice - Push
• Druid skills are based more on rural environment while Cleric skills are based more on Urban – Push
• Druids get more skill points – Druid
• Same BAB and saves – Push
• Druids and Clerics have the same Spells Per Day - Push
• First lvl: Druids get Nature Sense and Wild Empathy while Clerics get additional domains spells/day and Channel Energy – Slight push for Cleric, but after awhile a couple of low lvl spells and 2d6 worth of healing are going to not impact as much as they do at low levels
• Druids also get Woodland Stride and Trackless Step while Clerics only improve what abilities they already have – Slight push for Druid as they are new abilities where the Cleric gets none.
• Druids can get 1 domain ability while Clerics get 2 – Cleric. Now I say domain for Druid because no one going for TM with a Druid is going to take an animal companion. At high level you might as well take a tasty one because it is going to get killed every battle and it would be nice to have some lunch afterwards.
• Druids can Spontaneously cast Summon spells while Cleric can Spontaneously cast Heal/Harm spells – I give the push to Druids here. Yea whipping out a cure spell can turn the tide of a battle, but a Druid can always memorize that cure spell and then in a pinch summon a creature with it. Extra feet on the battle field in my opinion is better then healing someone.
• Druid spells vs Cleric spells – At the core, you have to give the nod to Clerics. Their spells are more combat oriented. Still, if are you building for a character that is good at summoning, Druids can go solo a lot easier then Clerics.

So in the end, the Cleric isn’t that clear of a winner. In smaller parties or for NPCs, I think the Druid comes out a little on top because of their summoning spells.

Wizard vs. Witch
• Same hit dice – Push
• Same skill ranks, but Witch has more skills to choose from including UMD – Push Witch
• Same BAB and Saves – Push
• Same Spell progression – Push
• Witch gets Familiar while Wizard gets Familiar or Bonded object – Going for Familiar with either class just runs the risk of it getting killed since neither will scale once you take TM. Instead you can use the Gravewalker Archetype and get a Spell Poppet for the Witch and you have to go Bonded Object for Wizard. Now the Poppet allows you to use Touch Spells at up to 25’ while you can cast a spell from the Wizard’s spell book through the Object. I give a push here. Both abilities have their uses I like the Witch’s as long as you take Druid also because you can make a wall of summoned animals and then hit the enemy with touch attacks from safety
• Witch gets patron spells and the Wizard can pick an Arcane School – advantage Wizard. Both abilities give the character bonus low level spells, but the school ability, while not strong, makes the Wizard the winner here.
• Witch get a Hex at 2nd lvl while the Wizard get Scribe Scroll at 1st – Advantage Witch. Technically, the Witch gets a hex at lvl 1, but since you really have to go Gravewalker here, you lose that one for the Aura of Desecration. Now if you decided to keep the familiar….again, you get a first lvl hex and more bonus for Witch.
• Witch spells vs Wizard spells – Straight up, you have to give the advantage to Wizards. Their spells are more versatile a do more damage. But, the Witch is a nice compliment to the Druids summoning because most of their spells are debuffs and support spells. Plus the fact that you can’t just find spell books to get new spells is rough.

So ultimately, Wizard/Cleric/TM is probably the best way to go if you are looking for Min/Max, but there is more then enough power there for Witch/Druid/TM to not totally dismiss the option. Especially when making an NPC

Taldor

@Ajaxis

Empyreal uses wisdom while Sage uses intelligence.

thanks,

Kodger


TClifford wrote:
Great stuff.

Good post, but a couple of thoughts:

1. You say advantage Druid because they can spontaneously Summon instead of cast Cure spells. Is there a particular reason that Clerics can't pray for Summon Monster every day and spontaneously Cure as needed as well? Or is it a SM vs SNA thing?

2. Scrollmaster archetype for Wizard is another option if what you really want is to minimize risk. It doesn't do that much for you at low levels but you have nothing to lose either (no familiar to get killed and no bonded object to lose).

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