Ale and whores, minus the ale


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I noticed that one of the examples listed in the Profession skill entry is "courtesan". I kind of raised an eyebrow at that.

My first thought was that courtesans favor a more "noble" clientele. Does that mean that if you mostly service the common people (or some other clientele), you would ("could"?) put ranks in a separate Profession skill? Could you have separate ranks in each of the following?
• Profession (courtesan)
• Profession (middle-class harlot)
• Profession (street corner whore)
...and so forth?

My next thought is this: couldn't/shouldn't it be a Perform skill instead? I mean, Profession is WIS-based while Perform is CHA-based; sure, you have to incorporate the business aspect of it, but really? Someone with 18 WIS and 3 CHA will make a better living as a whore than someone with 12 WIS and 25 CHA?

But lemme make the unfortunate implications even clearer: think about races. By the Profession skill's reckoning, what races produce the most successful prostitutes? Sure, the races with the floating +2 (humans, half-elves and half-orcs) can have that boosted WIS, but presumably that's only one-sixth of the population of each of those races. The best race for churning out whore-hoards? Dwarves.

That's right: statistically speaking, most high-quality whores are going to be dwarves.

What. The. F***. (So to speak.)

Kinda makes you wish whoring was a Perform skill, doesn't it?


1 rank= street corner

4 ranks= high class call girl

8 ranks= Imperial court.

of course, this gets into the whole problem where you can't get more ranks without increasing in level, so that high class hooker with the fan has more hit points, fire power, and ass kicking ability than a 1st level fighter in full plate...


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Don't forget humans have the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait that allows them to add 1/2 their level to a Profession. It lets them ignore fatigue 1/day, too. Because those farmers daughters (or sons, in some cases) really know their stuff, and they have endurance.


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Jiggy wrote:

I noticed that one of the examples listed in the Profession skill entry is "courtesan". I kind of raised an eyebrow at that.

My first thought was that courtesans favor a more "noble" clientele. Does that mean that if you mostly service the common people (or some other clientele), you would ("could"?) put ranks in a separate Profession skill? Could you have separate ranks in each of the following?
• Profession (courtesan)
• Profession (middle-class harlot)
• Profession (street corner whore)
...and so forth?

My next thought is this: couldn't/shouldn't it be a Perform skill instead? I mean, Profession is WIS-based while Perform is CHA-based; sure, you have to incorporate the business aspect of it, but really? Someone with 18 WIS and 3 CHA will make a better living as a whore than someone with 12 WIS and 25 CHA?

But lemme make the unfortunate implications even clearer: think about races. By the Profession skill's reckoning, what races produce the most successful prostitutes? Sure, the races with the floating +2 (humans, half-elves and half-orcs) can have that boosted WIS, but presumably that's only one-sixth of the population of each of those races. The best race for churning out whore-hoards? Dwarves.

That's right: statistically speaking, most high-quality whores are going to be dwarves.

What. The. F***. (So to speak.)

Kinda makes you wish whoring was a Perform skill, doesn't it?

If it was a perform skill what would it use for bards versatile performance?

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SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Don't forget humans have the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait that allows them to add 1/2 their level to a Profession. It lets them ignore fatigue 1/day, too. Because those farmers daughters (or sons, in some cases) really know their stuff, and they have endurance.

And don't forget the Gnomes' Obsessive racial trait, giving them a +2 to a Profession skill. But since their racial stat bonus is mere CHA instead of WIS, that'll only let them catch up with (rather than surpass) the average surly dwarf whore.

@doctor_wu: It could replace Diplomacy and Bluff. Or possibly Intimidate, if the bard is Chelaxian.


Jiggy wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Don't forget humans have the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait that allows them to add 1/2 their level to a Profession. It lets them ignore fatigue 1/day, too. Because those farmers daughters (or sons, in some cases) really know their stuff, and they have endurance.
And don't forget the Gnomes' Obsessive racial trait, giving them a +2 to a Profession skill. But since their racial stat bonus is mere CHA instead of WIS, that'll only let them catch up with (rather than surpass) the average surly dwarf whore.

But +2 WIS translates to +1 to WIS skills, less than Gnomes´ potential bonus. Gnome hookaz rulez!

And don´t underestimate those hard-working Human boyz and girl!


What should CHA do for the skill level?
CHA is only for the advertising side of the business, not the business itself.
WIS, OTOH, is used for perception and sense motive and Willpower (the ability to control one's self). Those mean a lot in whoring, and also mean alot when you go beyond the initial proposition and get to the ... service; A courtesan who can better read their client is more likely to get higher pay and repeat business.

You could say CHA is better for profession-Salesperson with the same reasoning as the OP, but thew you're neglecting Sense Motive (WIS), and business sense (INT/WIS), and self-control (WIS).

WISdom is fine as it is for profession, even for the courtesans.

I know, I know... CHA means bluffing, and let's face it. An agent of ye oldest profession does well to help clients' ego, or ability to escape into the fantasy of it all (though if a whore were to slather on the flattery or escapism, who's wouldn't want to believe it? So how important is a good bluff check?). CHA does alot of things for the business too. But if we're to pick one stat for all Professions, WIS still works.


I think y'all have put entirely too much thought into this.

Also, don't forget the Trait (Temple Prostitute?) that gave you access to , was it diplomace and sense motive?

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Quandary wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Don't forget humans have the Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait that allows them to add 1/2 their level to a Profession. It lets them ignore fatigue 1/day, too. Because those farmers daughters (or sons, in some cases) really know their stuff, and they have endurance.
And don't forget the Gnomes' Obsessive racial trait, giving them a +2 to a Profession skill. But since their racial stat bonus is mere CHA instead of WIS, that'll only let them catch up with (rather than surpass) the average surly dwarf whore.
But +2 WIS translates to +1 to WIS skills, less than Gnomes´ potential bonus. Gnome hookaz rulez!

Good point. But that still means that only the obsessive gnomes out-whore the dwarves. That's almost creepy.

@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Just a reminder to keep things PG-13 (or work-safe, or whatever.)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ross Byers wrote:
Just a reminder to keep things PG-13 (or work-safe, or whatever.)

For my reference, has anything already crossed the line?

The Exchange

BigNorseWolf wrote:
1 rank= street corner

Nah - 1 rank, as a class Skill, with no Wisdom bonus or penalty, averages earning 1gp per day: 10 times as much as a common labourer. You'd need to be working 10 clients, each paying you everything they've earned per day to be making that sort of cash, or 20 clients paying you half their cash. Considering a mug of ale, loaf of bread, and a hunk of cheese costs the poor labourer 7 out of his 10 coppers per day, you're looking at more like 30 or so happy clients at the low end of the market to be earning a full gold's worth of ca$h a day...

... I guess there's truth to the old adage about a 'two copper whore'... ;)


Quirks in the system are always fixed by feats.

Working Gal
Prereq: Charisma 12
Benefit: You may add you charisma, as well as your wisdom, to your profession (prostitute) skill checks.
Normal: You only add your wisdom.

The Exchange

Frogboy wrote:

Quirks in the system are always fixed by feats.

Working Gal
Prereq: Charisma 12
Benefit: You may add you charisma, as well as your wisdom, to your profession (prostitute) skill checks.
Normal: You only add your wisdom.

And now prostitutes are the best paid people in the universe... ;)


Why not just use skill focus or prodigy?


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what about those hardworking humans with heart of the fields? they are better at a given profession than any other race. including prostitution. and they only get better.


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Frogboy wrote:

Quirks in the system are always fixed by feats.

Working Gal
Prereq: Charisma 12
Benefit: You may add you charisma, as well as your wisdom, to your profession (prostitute) skill checks.
Normal: You only add your wisdom.

You missed males, and asexual beings too.


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doctor_wu wrote:
If it was a perform skill what would it use for bards versatile performance?

Acrobatics and Bluff.

Acrobatics for the more exotic stuff, and Bluff for "You are the best I ever had".


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KaeYoss wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
If it was a perform skill what would it use for bards versatile performance?

Acrobatics and Bluff.

Acrobatics for the more exotic stuff, and Bluff for "You are the best I ever had".

Escape Artist wouldn't be terrible either, and I suppose this is a situation where Use Rope would have been appropriate in 3.5?


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I think that the GM should dictate what your profession (Courtesan) does, with the PCs permission.

I should also think, though, that location would have an influence. If you pick up profession (courtesan) and live in BFE where everyone is a farmer, yeah, yer probably going to be the village bicycle and earn very little per day.

Now, if you live in a big city like Korvosa, or Absalom and have good charisma and class levels, well then, you probably get some pretty good clients. Maybe, you're an actual courtesan who can work her way up to taking a single patron versus "Two-Pump" Chuck who tosses copper at ya when he's done his part. If you earn less per week, maybe your return clients are busy or something...

I run two characters with profession (courtesan). One has become the whore of Babylon when it was not intended, the other, at least thus far, I have said that she manages to charm her way out of the act itself while she is looking for a regular patron to deliver her from her otherwise destitute situation in life.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:


@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

AS much as I hate to say it, you are incorrect in this. I had an employee that actually preferred his ladies with a little bit of a soup strainer. Made some interesting conversations at work. Different strokes for different folks means there's always a clientele.


Jiggy wrote:


And don't forget the Gnomes' Obsessive racial trait

I feel this is going to be a meme.

F*** ALL the people!

(Before anyone is put off: The link above is totally safe for work. It's a link to the meme picture, I just provided the captions.)

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WarDriveWorley wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

AS much as I hate to say it, you are incorrect in this. I had an employee that actually preferred his ladies with a little bit of a soup strainer. Made some interesting conversations at work. Different strokes for different folks means there's always a clientele.

O_o


Jiggy wrote:
WarDriveWorley wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

AS much as I hate to say it, you are incorrect in this. I had an employee that actually preferred his ladies with a little bit of a soup strainer. Made some interesting conversations at work. Different strokes for different folks means there's always a clientele.
O_o

I don't know what any of that means, but instinct tells me that my life is better for my ignorance.


Jiggy wrote:
@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

You're talking as if CHA defined appearance.

As if a male model was intimidating to anyone.
As if a Kraken (CHA 21) or Balor (CHA 27) were foxy.

I started a thread about this CHA/appearance problem...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
WarDriveWorley wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


@Malignor - The service doesn't matter if the prospective client is repulsed from the get-go. No one wants to bother finding out just how good Mrs. Permastubble is in bed.

AS much as I hate to say it, you are incorrect in this. I had an employee that actually preferred his ladies with a little bit of a soup strainer. Made some interesting conversations at work. Different strokes for different folks means there's always a clientele.
O_o
I don't know what any of that means, but instinct tells me that my life is better for my ignorance.

you are much safer.. much much safer

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Well courtesan to me implies something more than just a person that sells their body for sex. Like Companions in Firefly/Serenity or Geshia. While sex may be part of what they do, they also listen, entertain, and get their clients to relax and unburden themselves. In such a case I think wis makes sense.


I figured this was the difference between being good at what you do, and being good at the business of what you do.

If not for the Profession skill, many courtesans would've been able to retain their amateur status!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Malignor wrote:
You're talking as if CHA defined appearance.

No I'm not - you just inferred that because I decided to call her Mrs. Permastubble. Stop confusing my racist dwarf-woman stereotypes with my CHA definitions! ;)

CHA, as you noted, defines a lot more than (or instead of, if you like) appearance. So imagine you're walking down the street, and see a dwarf woman on the corner. She's standing sloppily/lazily, perhaps picking her nose or smelling something she just pulled out of her beard. When you walk by, she half-growls, half-spits the words "BRING THE MAN-MEAT, TALL GUY", then scratches her armpit and belches.

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine getting close enough to Mrs. Fivecha to discover the benefits of her high WIS.


Jiggy wrote:

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine getting close enough to Mrs. Fivecha to discover the benefits of her high WIS.

Well, with a high enough WIS bonus + Profession Ranks, she might have a reputation for excellence...

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Dark_Mistress wrote:
While sex may be part of what they do, they also listen (Diplomacy, CHA), entertain (Perform, CHA), and get their clients to relax and unburden themselves (Diplomacy, CHA). In such a case I think wis makes sense.

O RLY? ;)

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BigJohn42 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine getting close enough to Mrs. Fivecha to discover the benefits of her high WIS.

Well, with a high enough WIS bonus + Profession Ranks, she might have a reputation for excellence...

But a reputation has to start somewhere, which means someone approached her/accepted her offer. Maybe it's one of those "the first one is always free" deals?

So I guess I've just likened dwarf-whores to drug dealers.


Jiggy wrote:

But a reputation has to start somewhere, which means someone approached her/accepted her offer. Maybe it's one of those "the first one is always free" deals?

So I guess I've just likened dwarf-whores to drug dealers.

Or it could be that we're all xenophobic racist bastards, and haven't been playing the courtesans properly in our games.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
While sex may be part of what they do, they also listen (Diplomacy, CHA), entertain (Perform, CHA), and get their clients to relax and unburden themselves (Diplomacy, CHA). In such a case I think wis makes sense.
O RLY? ;)

I wasn't commenting on skills just general things. You could also say perception(wis) to notice subtle cue's, sense motive(wis) to draw out what is really bothering them to help them deal with it. etc. the point I was making is wis makes sense for profession and profession makes sense cause it would be about more than any one thing they do. The Pathfinder skill system is far from perfect, if profession with wis makes sense for other one then it makes just as much sense for them. Plus i do think profession makes sense for what one does.

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Dark_Mistress wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
While sex may be part of what they do, they also listen (Diplomacy, CHA), entertain (Perform, CHA), and get their clients to relax and unburden themselves (Diplomacy, CHA). In such a case I think wis makes sense.
O RLY? ;)
I wasn't commenting on skills just general things. You could also say perception(wis) to notice subtle cue's, sense motive(wis) to draw out what is really bothering them to help them deal with it. etc. the point I was making is wis makes sense for profession and profession makes sense cause it would be about more than any one thing they do. The Pathfinder skill system is far from perfect, if profession with wis makes sense for other one then it makes just as much sense for them. Plus i do think profession makes sense for what one does.

Yeah, I know, this is a just-for-fun thread. :)


Cha is not Appearance

Wis works because they have a knack for knowing what their johns prefer, just like Sense Motive/Perception, it lets them read body language, tone, etc, so they can better match the desires and needs of their clients (as with any other profession)


Jiggy wrote:
I don't know about you, but I can't imagine getting close enough to Mrs. Fivecha to discover the benefits of her high WIS.

If Mrs. Fivecha had a huge WIS and lots of ranks, she'd be better than that (so long as you avoid Mr. Fivecha!), low Charisma or not. High ranks means being better at the work, which includes marketing to the right clientele, and knowing how to go about it. If her CHA were garbage, yes, she'd get fewer approaches, so she'd probably outsource her advertising... but "Once you go Fivecha, you know what you like-a."

Ever seen Yes Man, with Tilly the lonely elderly woman?

The Exchange

Charisma is your force of personality... not everyone is going to want a 'person of the night' with a forceful personality...


ProfPotts wrote:
Charisma is your force of personality... not everyone is going to want a 'person of the night' with a forceful personality...

Quite right. Many want their evening of fun to be an easily forgettable experience.


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Ha!

gallops in and nods approvingly

Well...I approve of this thread.

However...I must caution you lot against the dwarf jokes. It is common knowledge that all dwarves are male, all prostitutes are female, therefore dwarves cannot be prostitutes. While the jokes were funny, a dwarf you depend on might get offended. Don't thank me, just pay it forward.

gallops away

Ha!


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Varthanna wrote:

Cha is not Appearance

Wis works because they have a knack for knowing what their johns prefer, just like Sense Motive/Perception, it lets them read body language, tone, etc, so they can better match the desires and needs of their clients (as with any other profession)

from the PRD:

Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

Are you sure Cha isn't appearance?

Charisma isn't JUST appearance, but appearance IS charisma, if you have a low Cha you have a poor appearance. You have high CHA you LOOOK GOOOOD.

It also is a measure of your force of personality,among other things, but appearance is part of it, if you have a low cha you have a low appearance, I interpret that to mean you are not attractive.

Now, being attractive does not mean you are sexy, a Kraken is awesome to behold, it doesn't have to start talking, or even let ou know it can communicate, it doesn't have to be charming, looking at it is awesome.
A unicorn is not sexy, but it is stunning.

Can you be pretty and have a low CHA ? I might allow that, if you were playing a complete wallflower. I certainly would allow you to play a not so hot looking char with a high cha but, in that case you better try to play the silver tongue person that you must.

Most people with a low cha are physically unattractive, most with high cha are physically attractive. That is all.


A lot of the stats measure some pretty disparate things. For example, con is both your disease/poison resistance and your endurance. I can't jog to the end of the block, but i had perfect attendance in high school, rarely catch cold, and take enough anesthetic to drop as a bull elephant and still pop awake on the table to do charades with the anesthesiologist.

The Exchange

What about Wisdom? Willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition? Disparate indeed! :)


If oyu have a different stat for each thing you will end up having many more stats and a much more complex game.


yes, more stats are not really a good choice. I don't understand What the obsession is with insisting that CHA is not appearance, it is, and has been for 30+ years.

Before you bring up Comliness,it was always an optional rule.

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My thread went from "lol dwarf hookers" to a serious discussion about the appropriateness of the roles of each ability score?

Sadface.


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Jiggy wrote:

I noticed that one of the examples listed in the Profession skill entry is "courtesan". I kind of raised an eyebrow at that.

My first thought was that courtesans favor a more "noble" clientele. Does that mean that if you mostly service the common people (or some other clientele), you would ("could"?) put ranks in a separate Profession skill? Could you have separate ranks in each of the following?
• Profession (courtesan)
• Profession (middle-class harlot)
• Profession (street corner whore)
...and so forth?

My next thought is this: couldn't/shouldn't it be a Perform skill instead? I mean, Profession is WIS-based while Perform is CHA-based; sure, you have to incorporate the business aspect of it, but really? Someone with 18 WIS and 3 CHA will make a better living as a whore than someone with 12 WIS and 25 CHA?

But lemme make the unfortunate implications even clearer: think about races. By the Profession skill's reckoning, what races produce the most successful prostitutes? Sure, the races with the floating +2 (humans, half-elves and half-orcs) can have that boosted WIS, but presumably that's only one-sixth of the population of each of those races. The best race for churning out whore-hoards? Dwarves.

That's right: statistically speaking, most high-quality whores are going to be dwarves.

What. The. F***. (So to speak.)

Kinda makes you wish whoring was a Perform skill, doesn't it?

Not really. Dwarfs are easier to talk to and convince to do things for you, based on their lower Charisma (see Diplomacy). Likewise, a lot of fantasy art doesn't depict dwarfs as ugly, but instead as a bit stocky, manly, and in the case of dwarf ladies - curvaceous. Then again, the elves are worried about the humans.

Humans and half-elves are naturally better at such things though. With the option of a +1 Wisdom bonus, a bonus feat for skill focus (half-elves get this for free), a human or half-elf commoner with a 12 wisdom and skill focus has a whopping +8 profession modifier. Add in the human alternate trait for another +2 and bam, you have a 1st level escort who can pull in 10 gp per week taking 10.

Then again, there are people on these boards that find the half-orc inquisitor iconic to be highly attractive, and sometimes you must wonder who can blame them. Ultimately, I imagine it works out well in the end.


Quote:
but instead as a bit stocky, manly, and in the case of dwarf ladies - curvaceous

You're talking about a demographic that spawned the chain mail bikini and the abomination of having REPTILES with curves.


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Elthbert wrote:


Charisma isn't JUST appearance, but appearance IS charisma, if you have a low Cha you have a poor appearance. You have high CHA you LOOOK GOOOOD.

No.


Maybe I overlooked it, but did anyone also mention that the older you get the better whore you are (age categories improve WIS and give additional skill points via INT upgrades in case you sloggedin your studies while younger)? My my... profession (prostitute) hopefully involves operating your own establishment in later creer...

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