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We Don't Need No Epic Content


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15 people marked this as a favorite.

I am hanging myself out in the minority again. I wish Paizo would spend their limited time and resources on things other than epic level rules.

I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character. As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years I am telling you now that sometimes stories end. New heroes take up the mantle. Villains are vanquished and those who do the vanquishing become legends. There's plenty of high fantasy and adventure in levels 1-20 to handle it.

The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

I say, no sir. I need no epic.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

5 people marked this as a favorite.
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:

I am hanging myself out in the minority again. I wish Paizo would spend their limited time and resources on things other than epic level rules.

I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character. As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years I am telling you now that sometimes stories end. New heroes take up the mantle. Villains are vanquished and those who do the vanquishing become legends. There's plenty of high fantasy and adventure in levels 1-20 to handle it.

The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

I say, no sir. I need no epic.

And I don't like them new fangled mechanical horses!


14 people marked this as a favorite.
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

Your first two paragraphs were at least reasonable. This one is just insulting, to everyone. You might as well call everyone who wants epic/mythic rules (which includes at least some of Paizo's staff) racists for all the logic and thought you put into this position; it's pure hate speech, and arrogant to boot, for presuming to judge people you don't even know the existence of.

Reprehensible.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Fozbek wrote:
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.
Your first two paragraphs were at least reasonable. This one is just insulting, to everyone. You might as well call everyone who wants epic/mythic rules (which includes at least some of Paizo's staff) racists for all the logic and thought you put into this position; it's pure hate speech.

People who want epic content are a separate race?


ciretose: Not sure if serious. If so:

No, I was saying that he might as well call us racist, because that position is just as (il)logical and offensive as the one he's taken.


Fozbek wrote:
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

Your first two paragraphs were at least reasonable. This one is just insulting, to everyone. You might as well call everyone who wants epic/mythic rules (which includes at least some of Paizo's staff) racists for all the logic and thought you put into this position; it's pure hate speech, and arrogant to boot, for presuming to judge people you don't even know the existence of.

Reprehensible.

I absolutely agree. Sometimes you just want to be the awesome hero everyone is looking up to. What's wrong with that? What does it have to do with "people who can't give up their characters?"


If people want epic, why does pathfinder society stops playing after level 12? is it intended, or is it because it gets a bit icky after level 12? I don't know what else you can offer a player after level 20 that doesn't rival the power of the deities of pathfinder!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nemitri wrote:
I don't know what else you can offer a player after level 20 that doesn't rival the power of the deities of pathfinder!

Perhaps people want to rival the power of the deities of Pathfinder? Perhaps they want to take the Test of the Starstone? Perhaps they want to hunt down and kill Achaekek, who is explicitly statted out so that he can be killed (Deities aren't statted because they aren't intended to be fought, but demigods are statted so that they can be--this is straight from Paizo). Perhaps they want to stop a Demonic invasion of their homeworld by travelling to the Nine Hells and enlisting the aid of one of Asmodeus's lieutenants (or perhaps even the deity himself) to take out the greater Demon Lord who is masterminding the invasion?

The limits of someone else's imagination should not impact the ability of my players and I to run the campaigns we want--or buy the products we want.


13 people marked this as a favorite.

If you don't want epic content than don't use it. No need to say you don't want it. It's like saying I don't want to eat a burger. If you don't want it than don't eat it. No need to jihad against all burgers because you don't like them. .


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
If you don't want epic content than don't use it. No need to say you don't want it. It's like saying I don't want to eat a burger. If you don't want it than don't eat it. No need to jihad against all burgers because you don't like them. .

Blasphemy. We must crush the infidel burgers in the name of the holy frankfurter (sauerkraut be upon him).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

By the way, here's some non-OMGMUSTKILLALLFUNEVERYWHERERAWRRRRRRR Epic-level gameplay from 3.0/3.5:

Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre

Have fun. I'll see you in a few weeks when you finish reading.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree with OP; epic rules are something that I do not need - and I'd prefer Paizo to focus their developments on things I'd rather see.

The reason is that I have no interest in playing a character that fights against things that gods consider a tough encounter. In a way that invalidates all my lesser-leveled characters; as their brave acts of great heroism and legendary conquests are something that an epic level character could've done in the course of an afternoon.


LoreKeeper wrote:

In a way that invalidates all my lesser-leveled characters; as their brave acts of great heroism and legendary conquests are something that an epic level character could've done in the course of an afternoon.

Do you feel the same way about the 10th level wizard that just casts a cloudkill and kills the entire kobold warren that would have been a marathon struggle to a level 1 party?

I don't see how what you're talking about has anything to do with epic/mythic gameplay. Nor do I understand it, to be frank.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd like to see a game that allowed for play through to epic level, as long as it were done right.

My fear is, it couldn't be done via addition to the existing rules; only be done by starting a new game with that design intent from scratch, as you would have to tear out so many of the 'irresistable forces' and 'immovable objects' feats/spells/class abilities that are cornerstones of the game from level 1-20.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, it's nice that you guys don't want epic content, but I didn't want firearms or a gunslinger and yet we have them.

I also don't really want as much Lovecraftian Mythos in Golarion.

However I did not go on any anti-these things rant, telling others they can't have what they want. Cause why would I rob others of what they find fun.

How would you feel if there was something you guys wanted, but perhaps a decent number of people did not, and they went on rants telling Paizo not to focus on stuff you want to see??

PS,
Too bad your cries will be unheard, as most the important Paizo people, including James Jacbos, actually want Epic/Mythic rules.

Sorry about your damn luck.

Dedicated Voter 2013

LoreKeeper wrote:

I agree with OP; epic rules are something that I do not need - and I'd prefer Paizo to focus their developments on things I'd rather see.

The reason is that I have no interest in playing a character that fights against things that gods consider a tough encounter. In a way that invalidates all my lesser-leveled characters; as their brave acts of great heroism and legendary conquests are something that an epic level character could've done in the course of an afternoon.

What another things? more low level bestiaries? it's fair enough it's time for epic (by the way I want an Epic bestiary too)

perhaps someone want to fight against the gods themselves and for someone level 20 it's not epic enough


Fozbek wrote:
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

Your first two paragraphs were at least reasonable. This one is just insulting, to everyone. You might as well call everyone who wants epic/mythic rules (which includes at least some of Paizo's staff) racists for all the logic and thought you put into this position; it's pure hate speech, and arrogant to boot, for presuming to judge people you don't even know the existence of.

Reprehensible.

I agree. We don't need this sort of talk on the Paizo forums.


I find creating characters for really high levels can take a long time and if it takes too long character creation can get dull and boring. I personally think the highest I have played a game was level 7 with some games at level 6 one is even gestalt and interesting. I am not sure I would use epic rules.

I still don't attack people wanting epic it just is not for me.


doctor_wu wrote:
I find creating characters for really high levels can take a long time and if it takes too long character creation can get dull and boring. I personally think the highest I have played a game was level 7 with some games at level 6 one is even gestalt and interesting. I am not sure I would use epic rules.

I may disagree with this, but I can respect how you said it. Each person has different tastes for how they like their game. I've played in games where it was entirely point buy and no stat could be higher than a 14. There were tons of character deaths (and I mean TONS), but it was still fun. Not a game I'd want to play again ever, but it was nice to see what works for others.

doctor_wu wrote:
I still don't attack people wanting epic it just is not for me.

Exactly; I don't go around attacking those that don't want anything but Golarion or that don't want things "tainting" their world. Heck, I didn't want the thing they call a Samurai which is just a Cavalier in disguise. But, if others like it, then that's fine. I'm not going to sit here and say that it can't ever exist because I don't want to use it. If a player wants to use it at my table, I'd allow it.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

Your first two paragraphs were at least reasonable. This one is just insulting, to everyone. You might as well call everyone who wants epic/mythic rules (which includes at least some of Paizo's staff) racists for all the logic and thought you put into this position; it's pure hate speech, and arrogant to boot, for presuming to judge people you don't even know the existence of.

Reprehensible.

I agree. We don't need this sort of talk on the Paizo forums.

agreed.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't care for the OP's post, but personally, I don't believe Paizo has the skill to create epic level rules that work. This is not an insult against them, because I don't believe anyone on the planet has the skill to create epic level rules that work. An overhaul of the 1-20 rules are required first, and I'd rather wait for Pathfinder 2 before seeing epic rules.


Personally I like epic when it is done right (not an easy task). You dont want epic, fine dont play it. But at the risk of sounding like a jerk, who are you to tell anyone to do anything. Make your own fantasy setting and top it off at 20 or lower if you want, otherwise dont challange the pazio staff who work hard to bring their own vision and world to those that are greatful for it. They want to do epic they will, they dont want to do epic they wont. Your tiny voice really has no say in the manner and spreading hate like this is just an insulting act on to itself.

But then again maybe I am being a little to harsh, here I was under the expression that the DM of each game made the rules and could disallow anything they dont want in their game. Personally I dont know anyone who owns every book that pazio has put out much less make use of them.

So maybe I dont know what I am talking about and you should ignore my post.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber

I'm also in the group of paizo fans who would prefer Paizo produce other books than epic level sourcebooks. I'm very much hoping they produce a 'high level' sourcebook regarding play at levels 12-20 (or thereabouts) first. That might persuade some of us leery of the upper levels that it's worth a shot - hopefully boosting demand for an eventual epic ruleset. I guess it might also throw up interesting 'food for thought' for when the epic rules are developed, but I doubt that's a significant gain.

My reason for asking Paizo not to produce epic rules is that I want other things instead and they have limited resources. It has nothing to do with stopping others having fun, nor is it impinging their ability to lobby for them via the various "I want epic rules" threads. I dont understand how opportunity cost became such an arcane concept but the idea that those who dont want something lose nothing if it's produced anyhow is just so obviously wrong I find it quite hard to argue with.


I definitely understand the concept of opportunity costs, especially given that Paizo produces only three books in their rulebook line each year (one of them a Bestiary).

However, we already know that they're done with major class option books after the APG, UM, and UC, at least for now. A Races book and an Equipment/Magic Item book are coming next year, so any Mythic Adventures book would be at least two years out.

What's really left after that? Psionics, perhaps. What else? What else do they really need to make at this point in the form of a 300+ page rulebook? A "High Level Play" book that only covers existing level ranges wouldn't need to be 300 pages. Honestly, that's mostly a GameMastery Guide type concept rather than a rulebook.


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In 3.5, I loved post-20 gameplay, but it was far from perfect.

That said, I'm in no rush for a post-20 core book as there are so many things I want covered before that. Don't get me wrong, I eventually would like to see core books detailing in-game world management, taking over a planar metropolis, and deicide (especially deicide), but first...

- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
- a 'pure' magic variant (no arcane/divine/psionic/etc. just magic) sourcebook
- 300+ page dramatic/romance/mystery/horror/non-combat guidebook (complete with tables...)
- more bestiaries

In response to the gamers preferring high level games: I know that was a kneejerk response, but for the record my experience in levels 18+ have always been more about drama and roleplay than combat.


James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:

I am hanging myself out in the minority again. I wish Paizo would spend their limited time and resources on things other than epic level rules.

I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character. As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years I am telling you now that sometimes stories end. New heroes take up the mantle. Villains are vanquished and those who do the vanquishing become legends. There's plenty of high fantasy and adventure in levels 1-20 to handle it.

The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

I say, no sir. I need no epic.

Your post is insulting.

However, I also concur that epic rules are unnecessary. The reason is simply that the system becomes unbalanced well before level 20, and it would be better to fix the issues that already exist before trying to add another layer.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber
Fozbek wrote:

I definitely understand the concept of opportunity costs, especially given that Paizo produces only three books in their rulebook line each year (one of them a Bestiary).

However, we already know that they're done with major class option books after the APG, UM, and UC, at least for now. A Races book and an Equipment/Magic Item book are coming next year, so any Mythic Adventures book would be at least two years out.

What's really left after that? Psionics, perhaps. What else? What else do they really need to make at this point in the form of a 300+ page rulebook? A "High Level Play" book that only covers existing level ranges wouldn't need to be 300 pages. Honestly, that's mostly a GameMastery Guide type concept rather than a rulebook.

For the RPG line I think there are many potential topics - steampunk, sci-fi or other genres (just as examples - they arent necessarily my preference). I think there would easily be scope to expand other areas within the fantasy milieu - like divine magic/gods/religions and so forth. Nonetheless, I'm not trying to persuade you those are better - I'm merely telling Paizo that I'd put epic rules quite far down on the list. They have to sift through it all and try and work out what's 'best' - not a job I envy.

I would agree that a high level sourcebook wouldnt really warrant a harcover (especially if it's a stepping-stone to epic, as I imagine it). Nonetheless, I'd like some kind of book along these lines - even if it were Golarion specific and set within the Campaign Setting line.

My ultimate point though is not really addressed to you, since you seem well aware of why someone might express a view asking for something to not be produced. I wouldnt suggest those who want epic should abandon requesting it. It's just irritation that, every time this comes up, there are posts along the lines of "Why are you trying to stop everyone else having fun?" which hasnt got much to do with what I'm saying (though the OP didnt help the cause, from that perspective).


Fair enough.


Well I ran a 3.0 game for 5 years that made it to epic levels, Infact, it was a continuous game for the entire length of 3.0, we went from 1st to 24th level, at which time their characters became ( not entirely by thier own choice) minor deities and were retired. Since my campaign world is the same world I have been running since 1988, thsi was a meaningful event, and they along with the sort of outsider demigod who was thier patron have now formed their own pantheon, which is in direct confrontation with the several existing rival pantheons. I enjoyed running the games at low epic level, and my players enjoyed it as well. I don't see why players hould have to surrender their favorite characters. Had my group makes up not changed I might have run a campaign with them as minor deities.

I hope pathfinder does indeed come out with epic rules in the forseeable future.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

is noone going to point out the double negative in the title so is she saying she does need epic content


Umbral Reaver wrote:
I don't care for the OP's post, but personally, I don't believe Paizo has the skill to create epic level rules that work. This is not an insult against them, because I don't believe anyone on the planet has the skill to create epic level rules that work. An overhaul of the 1-20 rules are required first, and I'd rather wait for Pathfinder 2 before seeing epic rules.

Actually, they can be done. I ran a 3.5 campaign up to level 35, houseruled a lot of it. But it worked, with parity of power. Two of the PC's were vorpal'd in the second to last fight, and three of them died in the last fight, even though they were able to resurrect them immediately.

It was fun, memorable, and one of the PC's became Bahamut, who had been killed by the BBEG.

The focus wasn't so much on creating more epic abilities, but making the abilities the players had more difficult to resist, and making them more competent through continued feat and ability score progression.

It can be done, done well, and can be fun!


<---- will pass on epic stuff.

Silver Crusade Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:

I am hanging myself out in the minority again. I wish Paizo would spend their limited time and resources on things other than epic level rules.

I think epic only feeds players who refuse to give up their favorite character. As someone who's been in the hobby over thirty years I am telling you now that sometimes stories end. New heroes take up the mantle. Villains are vanquished and those who do the vanquishing become legends. There's plenty of high fantasy and adventure in levels 1-20 to handle it.

The only people who have more fun at 20th level than 1st level are the rules monkies. People who live to destroy everyone else's fun by finding that combination loop-hole that is totally unstoppable.

I say, no sir. I need no epic.

There are a ton of things I would love to see more than epic material. A lot of stuff I'd love to see is less likely to happen than epic material which would get pushed further back because of it.

But this opening post is bad and the poster should feel bad. You can voice your lack of want for something without insulting those that do want it. Their fun isn't your fun. That does not make their fun wrong or them wrong for wanting it.

This is the kind of poisonous attitude that needs to amputated from the boards.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
I say, no sir. I need no epic.

I promise not to steal your money and give you epic rules.


I would like epic level rules. Some of us enjoy and know how to make high level games fun. We don't get uptight when the character's are powerful or mind spending the time making equally powerful enemies.

We don't necessarily want to play a constant stream of epic level characters, but if we get a few characters to level 20 we would like to be able to pull them out and play them on occasion. Take them past level 20 and do some truly epic adventures like fighting on the planes against demon hordes or battling the local god king.

If Pathfinder does do epic rules, I hope they do epic adventure support. That's the real key to making it work. An epic level main book and an epic level bestiary.

P.S. The high level game is not broken. It merely requires more preparation, creativity, and strategy. Some people enjoy that level of detail and planning, some people do not. I am one of the people that doesn't mind and in fact finds that aspect of the game quite fun. I also like imagining my players hacking down hordes of vrocks or bone devils rather than lvl 1 warriors. Just makes for a fun game sometimes.

Some of us want our own characters to become the number one legendary characters in a given world by becoming gods or planar conquerors. We shouldn't have our gameplay limited by other people's choices.


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I'm a firm believer that 15 to 20th level game play *is* epic level. By that point the mechanics of the game begin to break down. It stops being a game about degrees or success or failure and basically becomes a combination of Rocket Tag and How Big Was Your Success.

When most bonuses are significantly bigger than the randomizer, I'd say that's definitely Demigod/Epic level territory.

Beyond that it's barely functional as a system and rather silly.

I'd prefer to have Paizo's time spent on things I'll use, but if epic level play is what you like I won't begrudge you for it. I'll just hope it's further down their priority list than, say, a revamp of Unearthed Arcana or the Tome of Magic.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

No epic PF rules, please.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Some of you guys have a funny way of thinking of what's epic. In posts like this it always seems to end up in stats and abilities and what monsters you're capable of fighting. What happened to the truely epic struggle being about heroes fighting overwhelming odds? It's not that hard to have EPIC struggles and MYTHIC tales at all levels, all it takes is the proper setting and the right mindset, not rules and statblocks.

I'm not much for epic rules myself, got enough of those in 3.0. But those of you who crave them are of course free to do so, just remember that epic play is not dependent on the title of a rulebook, it's the way you do it that really matters. All levels and monsters can be plain and dull, all levels and monsters can be mythic and epic ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't want Epic rules.

I want Companion, Master, and Immortals rules. :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Give us Epic Level Rules, please. Thank you. :)

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I don't want Epic rules.

I want Companion, Master, and Immortals rules. :D

Every time I read your user name I hear 'The Evil Midnight Lurker What Lurks At Midnight!'

Shadow Lodge

Rocket Surgeon wrote:
Some of you guys have a funny way of thinking of what's epic. In posts like this it always seems to end up in stats and abilities and what monsters you're capable of fighting. What happened to the truely epic struggle being about heroes fighting overwhelming odds? It's not that hard to have EPIC struggles and MYTHIC tales at all levels, all it takes is the proper setting and the right mindset, not rules and statblocks.

Which doesn't require rules for levels 21+. Especially since the rules begin to break down before you even get to level 20.


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I'm just happy that, regardless of what the nay sayers desire, we *will* get the epic rules.


I want desperately an epic level book , and the main reason is that all of my chacacters prime goals is "POWER, UNLIMITED POWER"...

OBS: Before anyone starts calling me a "number player" , I am terrible in math.... I just want awesomeness....

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Rocket Surgeon wrote:
Some of you guys have a funny way of thinking of what's epic. In posts like this it always seems to end up in stats and abilities and what monsters you're capable of fighting. What happened to the truely epic struggle being about heroes fighting overwhelming odds? It's not that hard to have EPIC struggles and MYTHIC tales at all levels, all it takes is the proper setting and the right mindset, not rules and statblocks.
Which doesn't require rules for levels 21+. Especially since the rules begin to break down before you even get to level 20.

What is your experience that has shown you to be the case? Because I ran a game to level 19 and did not find that to be the case. I found running a high level campaign <i>hard</i> because there's a lot to keep track of, and there is so very little support for high level play I was on my own to figure out how to handle it, but the rules themselves didn't "break down" in my personal experience. There is a difference between being broken and being difficult; my personal experience is that high level play is the latter but not necessarily the former. I would be very interested to hear of your gameplay experience that has shown otherwise.

As to epic rules and the OP--as with all splatbooks, some people want them, some don't. Some people didn't want Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Combat. Some people aren't interested in the Advanced Race Guide or Ultimate Equipment or the Bestiary 3. Some very vocal people have some strong and valid reasons for not wanting these books (just as others have strong and valid reasons for wanting them). But Paizo determined there was a market for these books, and produced them (or will). The people who wanted those books bought them, the people who didn't hopefully were not so foolish to pay for them anyway.

Same goes for epic play--if the Paizo determines that if there is enough demand for guidelines, they will publish rules for them. The people who want that book will buy it. The people who don't won't. End of story. The people who don't want the "Ultimate Series" of books continue to play effectively without them. Likewise if/when an epic play book comes out--which let's be clear here, is obviously not coming out for a long time anyway, given the stuff we already know is in development--the people who are not interested will be able to carry on unaffected. It is impossible for Paizo to ever please everyone (particularly when everyone are gamers, a divisive and cantankerous bunch ;) ). You'll have to trust only that they'll make the call on what will bring them profit without alienating the majority of their fanbase.

(FWIW, I don't really care either way about level 21+ rules, but I DO want a high level play (level 15-20) game guide with help for game masters.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I may never run an epic level campaign. That doesn't mean I don't need epic-level rules. I need them for NPCs, for final bosses in a campaign which ends at level 20. An encounter of level 20 PCs against a single level 20 foe is one they're going to win handily. Now sure, I can boost the CR by handing the guy better equipment, use situational boosts, give him allies, slap on a bunch of templates. Or I could use a massively powerful monster race (and maybe add class levels on top of that). But sometimes, all of that just doesn't fit. Sometimes I want the Whispering Tyrant to be more than just a 20th level necromancer with PC gear and the lich template--sometimes I actually want him to actually be a better caster than 20 levels. Sometimes I want Kazavon to be more than a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon--sometimes I want to give him class levels to represent his incredible prowess. Sometimes, I want the Runelords to sling magic in their specialty that is world-shaking in its power.

And sometimes, maybe, I want to use that power to its fullest, and take the PCs into epic so they can match up against such villains.

Not to mention, I want to see a module or adventure path which culminates in the party taking the Test of the Starstone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are things in the setting that need more then 20th level to be properly represented. That alone means that eventually paizo should provide post 20th level rules.

I dont know how much use I would get out of epic level rules, but I would probably pick them up eventually. And given there are people out there who like this sort of thing, I dont see a reason not to give them an outlet within pathfinder. I personally would like to see what the folks at paizo can come up with.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:
I am hanging myself out in the minority again.

Just because you're not part of the vocal group that keeps calling out for an epic handbook, doesn't mean you're the minority voice. Epic rules weren't that godawful popular in the 3.5 game.

For endgame bosses... make stuff up and don't feel bound by the rules book. The greatest challenge to a 20th level party.... is another party of characters that are run just as they are.


Revan wrote:
I may never run an epic level campaign. That doesn't mean I don't need epic-level rules. I need them for NPCs, for final bosses in a campaign which ends at level 20. An encounter of level 20 PCs against a single level 20 foe is one they're going to win handily. Now sure, I can boost the CR by handing the guy better equipment, use situational boosts, give him allies, slap on a bunch of templates. Or I could use a massively powerful monster race (and maybe add class levels on top of that). But sometimes, all of that just doesn't fit. Sometimes I want the Whispering Tyrant to be more than just a 20th level necromancer with PC gear and the lich template--sometimes I actually want him to actually be a better caster than 20 levels. Sometimes I want Kazavon to be more than a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon--sometimes I want to give him class levels to represent his incredible prowess. Sometimes, I want the Runelords to sling magic in their specialty that is world-shaking in its power.

But isn't that recursive? Once you have above 20 rules to create villains for 20th level parties to fight, then you'll have 30th level parties who need villains above that to fight, etc.

When does it end?


Kolokotroni wrote:
There are things in the setting that need more then 20th level to be properly represented. That alone means that eventually paizo should provide post 20th level rules.

True. Inner Sea Magic has something like 5 or 6 "level 20+" NPCs listed. And that's just in the Inner Sea region.

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