Achilles was a fighter, but could fight gods.
No level 20 martial character can do that.
And what's the problem with have Pathfinder as a fantasy/superhero game it work for more people, what is the point of remain only as low fantasy, I think it could be superhero too
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And what's the problem with have Pathfinder as a fantasy/superhero game it work for more people, what is the point of remain only as low fantasy, I think it could be superhero too
Its not low fantasy. Its high fantasy as is. It stops just short of deicide.
Some people want a game of fighting the gods, and I was just saying I'd rather see more support for running Low Fantasy than it currently has, instead.
I want to see some official decent rules for running games without any magic items. Or Perhaps some rules for "half levels" or "quarter levels" so you can run a 1-10 or3-8 or 5-10game with more frequent gains of -stuff- without breaking the CR system.
I can houserule it, sure, but by that logic, you guys could houserule epic rules too.
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What level of spell should they be?
Is dumping a mountain range on someone equal in power to meteor swarm?
Not quite, but Evocation sucks. Its less powerful than creating your own universe. If you dont like the damage capable aspects, you can give it more expensive components to balance it out.
Or, lets look at more common fantasy magic. What level of spell will create a nation-wide epidemic uncurable by normal healing and capable of killing even the more powerful characters in the nation? This magic was in one of the Conan stories.
I'm not familiar with that story, but generally, in conan, powerful magic comes from drawing power from an outside source; either you're sacrificing many people to temporarily boost your power (IE People as spell components), or you're selling your soul to demons (and generally still sacrificing people to get the flashy effects, but at a slightly lower cost).
You dont need epic rules for that, you need rules for boosting the potency of spells by using better components, or using human sacrifice. Then you use some manner of boosted mass contagion spell.
That sounds pretty awesome actually.
Paizo guys! Look into making a system to boost spells by sacrificing people! Conan 2e is mostly OGC!
Hey that would give the martials something to do besides be cheerleaders!
Sure yeah thats what i meant ;)
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Personally, I'm all for epic content, but in what is probably a different way than what most see..
I'm talking about things like epic skill rolls. Currently many skills really stop doing stuff after about 20-30 dc. Cept of course when you find that amazing super lock you have to pick with your toes whilst hanging from your teeth..
Like craft.. weapon. After you get to a certain point, its pointless to continue to build on craft weapon. I'd like to see the ability to be magical non-magical stuff. Like crafting a sword so epic that it rivals real magical swords. Or alchemical items that border potions. (A alchemist could get somewhere in the 60's for his modifier.. yet there is nothing up there..)
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In X-man 3, Magneto lifts the Golden Gate bridge up into the air.
In Secret Wars, Molecule Man lifts an entire mountain range.
What level does a Wizard need to be to do those things?
Even if we stay inside the fantasy genre, there is a very long list of things that characters do that can't be replicated in 1-20 level Pathfinder.
When you have a spell that can make a demi-plane,Kill everything within a mile and make it a zombie,Teleport to other planets,Summons tornado-force winds, Call a Tsunami and gate in devils from hell those things are well within the power range of what you can do. You simply need to find or craft the correct spell.
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Eh you can do things just as deadly and powerful as that yes. The spell is called Cursed earth and yes those two effects are just as deadly maybe more so then hitting someone with a large rock. The freaking wish spell allows anything the Gm will let you get away with. Want to drop a mountain range on someone? Cast wish, word it real careful like.
Past level 6 your not mortal, around 12th you are Boewulf. In the higher levels you are superhero power rang. If you can't see that you need to really look over the rules real good man.
Again see wish.
No epic for me. I like the concept but it doesn't mesh into the rules for the same reason it didn't in 3.0
The numbers "curve" favors certain characters over others. The barbarian strikes gold here while the monk strikes out.
Also, the numbers/results become either completely predictable or completely useless. You're either rolling so many dice that 90% of your rolls fall within a small range (part of why I never played GURP's Supers or Hero System's Champions) or the modifier makes the die roll pointless; 1d6+45 damage is silly. Why even bother with a randomizer at all? d20+30 to hit; my bonus is 50& higher than the maximum random result I can achieve. As the game scales upward, the die rolling mechanics either break down or descend into irrelevancy. Unfortunately, this happens long before you hit level 20.
Can these games still be fun? Of course they can - but you're no longer playing to the strength of the system.
For an epic level book to work I think two things need to happen.
1. PF 2.0 has to come out first. PF was written under the assumption of "3.5 doesn't survive, it thrives!"; a poster still hanging at my local gaming store. But later books have really stretched the 3.5 legacy and many people who like 3.5 are still playing it; not PF.
Rewrite the core rules for more flexibility for add-ons and don't put something in for no other reason than "3.5 did it that way". Too many legacy rules and ideas are holding the game back without adding anything in. Taking my Dhampir Gunslinger and Gillman Alchemist into a 3.5 advneture that wasn't designed to handle any of those things and you've largely lost reverse compatibility anyways.
2. The mythic rules need to divorce themselves compeltely from the 1-20 leveling mechanic. Post 20, so many things are auto (or near auto) successes that some other type of resolution mechanic is needed. As you near even the lowest end of godhood it becomes more important what you character represents than how many reality changing magics you can bring to the Wish war slugfest.
As a corollary, if the current curve is already working post 20, then the Mythic book won't need to be more than a softback no larger than the Books of the Damned series. Unfortuantely, I just don't see that being the case.
I just don't see Paizo having the time to do it right. The system already has cracks in ridiculous class abilities, spells and feats that have prevented Paizo's own organized play for utilizing more than 60% of its own content (and even within the level range they allow they've had to knock things out).
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Moving this, temporarily I'm sure, away from from the power level discussion on what is "superpowered"...
Epic / mythic is within my "wanted list". What strikes me as funny is how many "don't want it" and are vocal about it. There have been entire swaths of PF material that I "don't want". I just don't buy it. I don't mind them making it; I don't find it a "waste of their time". It's their call.
The idea that if they make something that you don't want it is subtracting their effort from what you do want is strikingly self centered. I don't play in Golarion, I use a homebrew setting. Should I whine about how much effort they put into it? Honestly, I'm glad they work on the campaign material (I have bought some of it -- the Books of the Damned for example) and I think it's good that they exercise their imagination and build onto the basics of the game. The effort and ideas carry over into the stuff I do want and many other people really enjoy / use it.
So, really people, let them work. Whether it's official psionics (which I don't want), high level adventure paths (which I don't use), or epic / mythic rules (which I want from a world building and high level challenge building standpoint) I am fine with what they want to do. I'll buy it or not and enjoy the spillover into the products I do want anyway.
Again see wish.
No, not at all.
Wish is not a spell that says "make up whatever you want and this spell will do it."
Wish is a ninth-level spell just like any other ninth-level spell.
It will not create an artifact.
It will not enslave an entire town.
It will not cause a moon to crash into Golarion (or whatever your campaign world is).
It will not make you a god.
It will not suddenly cause all your enemies to cease to exist.
There is an endless list of things it will not do. Now, I suppose some GMs might let you do whatever you want with wish, but they're forgetting that it's just a ninth level spell.
It's perfectly understandable that people might not want to play or run at levels above 20 (or even above 12-15 or so; things get pretty crazy), but there is no stretch that says that 20th-level characters can do whatever they want.
Some people want supported, codified rules for what happens beyond level 20 that do more than say "continue your existing saves, BAB and spell progression."
It's not an unreasonable request :)
I think they are going to want to focus on whatever sells the most copy. If people don't want it, its their right to say so (and saying so helps Paizo make publishing decisions). Its no more self-centered than if I say that I don't like eggplant and think its a waste of time for my local grocer to stock it.Don't take that to mean that I feel strongly against epic. I don't. I doubt I'd play it, but its easy to keep it out of my game.
I'm sure sales potential is a significant part of the "what are we going to do" equation. I'm also sure they have a pretty good grasp of the popularity of given ideas. I assume that they will make a choice on which way they want to take their game.
What I really object to is the plus / minus game that some people post about. "I don't want this because I want that". I simply want them to develop their game. Not just for sales (although obviously that's important), not just to please a specific segment of the boards here, but to develop the system itself, to present more ideas and allow more people to play the game they want. If they do that, sales will take care of themselves. I think they have already pushed out the big sales / everybody needs books. Further books are expansions that not everyone needs / wants / will buy. Some people will want a given book / subject others won't. And I'm OK with all of it. Paizo does a good job. Given that, whatever they chose to do will sell and add to the overall game. And bits and pieces of all those ideas will work thir way into other books. Meaning, I will benefit from even the material I "don't want / buy".
As for eggplant; I don't like it myself. But my grocer can carry it for those who do like it. No problem from me :)
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I don't think that anything new will add to the game. Sometimes, new stuff makes the game worse (the rules bloat that happened with 3.X is a good example of that).
Only if you're not picky. I am. If you're in one of those "anything published goes" games I can see it as a problem.
Again see wish.No, not at all.
Wish is not a spell that says "make up whatever you want and this spell will do it."
Your right it says you can do what ever the Gm lets you get away with. So yes the spell can do damned near anything the Gm allows.
It can make an artifact
It can enslave an entire town
it can make a moon or something crash into something else
It could make you a god
It could cause anything to suddenly not exist.
It is a spell limited solely by the GM and not much else.
Anything you can think of can be pulled off with wish if the Gm allows it. So yeah about any thing can be done with a 9th level spell
I don't think that anything new will add to the game. Sometimes, new stuff makes the game worse (the rules bloat that happened with 3.X is a good example of that).
Only if you're not picky. I am. If you're in one of those "anything published goes" games I can see it as a problem.
GMs playing PFS don't have the option to pick and choose.
That would be why I don't play / DM PFS. I'm sure it's fun, but the need to adhere strictly to someone elses setting / rules / adventure would be a bit constraining. Of course, not having done it I might be off the mark on it.
Well thats how it goes when you run in an organized setting you get what ever comes with it guns/epic/psionics. I had a GM want to run an ebberon game and ban shifters warforged and artificers we then asked if he was sure Ebberon was for him.
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PF isn't really "complete" until there exists the means to emulate your favorite fantasy tales, myths and legends... including the grand-scale ones.
This blog post from the other day seems to indicate it may stay "incomplete" for a while.
Not saying blog posts are a definitive development outline, but it seems they're mostly happy with third parties doing psionics and epic content.
Turns out I'm fine with that, too--I like non-statted gods.
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I want epic level play, I want those powers that only come to the most worthy. herculean strength, Slaying lengendary monsters ( and not those coddled versions the give us), I want to face leveled Ancient dragons, I want skill optimization for epic skills, I want spells that though wish can do, but these spells, though epic can be done with out the loop holes of wish ( My group wish is like a contract, any action not defended against like I want true immortallity and then spemd it as a statue) I want rules and feats that help make artifacts, as well as feats that allow characters to do immposible Mythic feats close to the gods them selves. I want fighters to be able to hone them selves into a one man platoon, a paladin and a cleric to make demon lords shiver. I want what turns your run of the mill average wizard in to the Elministers and Mordikainens of the world. I want bards to bring together a solar and a succubus to an honest relationship.
I want epic wars on the planes, were I measely 20th level character can be hard pressed and if I do survive, what then I want to advance him, If I have to retire him thats fine but before I do I want him to be his absolute pennucle of his personal achievement and to me surviving Planar wars..Is not oh your ok your maxed out on levels ( a Dm actually told us this once... Still the wound festers and bleeds) I want it not only for the player but for a DM I've gotten to these points with my PCs and I want content to help me and them feel our way into this uncharted expanse and see what can be done or uncovered, to see have some form of concrete rules, and/or guide to aid us along so that we can still use our imaginations yet have something to anchor us to the rules in which our characters grew from
atleast thats my group and mines consensious on the topic
Pretty much anything can be done with a stick if the GM allows it.
Not the point. It is within the realm of a 9th level spell, it is how the spell is written. Near anything you want to do is within the ability of spells we have or within the same power range.
Pretty much anything can be done with a stick if the GM allows it.Not the point. It is within the realm of a 9th level spell, it is how the spell is written. Near anything you want to do is within the ability of spells we have or within the same power range.
Disagree.
I would expound, but you're dead-set on being your "Wish" trump card.
No I am using wish to make a point. Wish is damned powerful, I really can't think of much that can't fit along the lines of wish in power. Maybe smaller in scope but , not much else is gonna be more powerful. You simply do not need "epic" spells when you have ones now that can rewrite reality on whim.
If you want a spell that brings a whole mountain range into being, it could easily be 9th level with a long casting time and such.
Wish for 10 wishes?
Wish for Quickened Extended Timestop?
Also, its worth noting, that in those myths, the gods likely weren't higher than CR 25 or so, and maybe were even lower than that, like CR 22 or 23.
How do you get CRs from The Iliad? I'm like 94% certain they didn't even have D&D in Homer's time.
Wish for 10 wishes?
You can try that, it normally does not end well.
Before any epic content (which I personally am not keen on) I would like to see revisions on Core, APG, UM and UC that errata all the problem cases and uncertainties, and possibly address some unintended imbalances.
There should be rules to support over-the top beings. The kind that can wipe a city, or topple a mountain. There are fantasy books about such things, movies, comics...
True. And those beings are generally regarded as BBEGs, reviled "Mary Sues", or are nerfed in later installments as the author realizes that they've run out of ideas or there's "nowhere left" for the character to go.
Fantasy case in point: Feist's Pug & Thomas. While he doesn't abandon them completely, beyond the original series they're rarely center-stage. Why? B/c the heroic trials of the lower-level guys are much more gripping, entertaining, and accessible. And there is invariably some bs reason given why the demigod-powered characters just don't blow up the setting. Then you've got the ever-escalating "new or recently re-discovered" BBEG who's going to unravel the world...
It may be high-powered, but it's hardly epic.
No thanks.
And I don't like rap.
But I approve of its availability on the market, for other people.
Do I want to play these things? Not really.
I advocate the availability.
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And I don't like rap.
But I approve of its availability on the market, for other people.Do I want to play these things? Not really.
I advocate the availability.
Agreed and seconded. I would rather have a book that allows me as a DM and player to make and create epic campâigns. I know its not for everyone yet just because Paizo makes an epic sourcebook does not mean one has to buy let alone use it.
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Also, its worth noting, that in those myths, the gods likely weren't higher than CR 25 or so, and maybe were even lower than that, like CR 22 or 23.How do you get CRs from The Iliad? I'm like 94% certain they didn't even have D&D in Homer's time.
Look at the things they're capable of doing, the things they're not capable of doing, and guesstimate from there: same as trying to adapt any fictional or nonfictional creature to D&D.
However, you're wrong about D&D not being present. D&D has been a long upheld tradition since the beginning of chinese history. In the Three Kingdoms, they play D&D in between the battles. True Story. :P
But, there really is no reason for them to publish the rules. Dreamscarred Press already published the rules and many people like their ruleset.
There is one reason for them to publish psionics rules, and that is that many within Paizo do not like the non-Vancian psionics system, but some of them do want a "mind-magic" caster. (Coinciding with a potential Vudran AP, if I remember correctly.)
Most of the flavor of a psion could be replicated with a couple of archetypes for Wizard or Sorcerer, but the added flexibility that the psion enjoyed in previous editions would be lost without some extra rules. (The best option I've seen for gaining that type of flexibility and still keeping it mostly Vancian is the channeler classes from Wheel of Time d20. Not OGL, but the mechanics of the classes could be cribbed for ideas.)
The same basic reason exists for Paizo eventually getting around to writing an Epic (or Mythic or whatever it will be called) extension to the PFRPG rules: They have some stories that they want to tell that will need them. (Namely, several devs have said that they would love to do a module for the Starstone. I think an expedition to the Worldwound might also be a potential use of Epic rules.)
When the time is right for Paizo to write the products that will need the new rules, the new rules will be written.
