Sap Mastery Ninja Optimization


Advice


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I was making a ninja for the Jade Regent adventure path and I thought it would be interesting to make a 20th level build for it. One slightly iffy thing that I'm assuming is that the Ninja can take rogue archetypes (specifically the Scout archetype).

Note: We get a bonus feat at first level for writing a character backstory. (For a more PFS legal build, switch out Combat Trick (Enforcer) for Unarmed Combat Training, and replace either Forgotten Trick or Rogue talent (offensive defense) for Combat Trick (Enforcer))

So relevant points:

Human Ninja 20
Stats (20 point buy):

Str 10
Dex 18 (16 base, +2 for being human)
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16

Feats:
Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Master
7th: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9th: Two Weapon Fighting
11th: Dazzling Display
13th: Shatter Defenses
15th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
17th: Extra Ki
19th: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Ninja Tricks:
2nd: Vanishing Trick
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)
6th: Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)
8th: Forgotten Trick
10th: Invisible Blade
12th: Evasion
14th: Rogue Advanced Talent (Opportunist)
16th: Unarmed Combat Mastery
18th: ? Feat probably
20th: ?

I think its serviceable at early, mid and late games. Once you reach level 4, you can start charging people for good sneak attack damage (they are flat footed) and level at 5 your sneak attack when dealing non-lethal damage is basically 2x SA + 1.5x level (from knockout artist and sap adept) which is a fair chunk if you add other bonuses.

Later on, the build starts diversifying with two weapon fighting and the enforcer/shatter defenses trick to get enemies flat footed on iterative attacks.

It is weak against enemies that don't take nonlethal damage (or normal ninja level of ability) and against enemies that don't take sneak attack, well, thats bad for any rogue.

Advice though? Are there any angles that I'm missing?

prototype00


I am not sure if monsters are legal, but you could play as a Fetchling. I've long thought a Fetchling Ninja would be so much fun.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/fetchling

Wisdom penalty hurts, but you'd save 3 points overall if you wanted to start with a 16 Charisma. You'd be down the skills and one feat but in return you would get...

Low-light vision AND Darkvision
+2 to Knowledge (Planes) and Stealth checks
50 percent miss chance for your opponents in dim light instead of 20
By 20th level, Disguise Self as a Humanoid, Shadow Walk, Plane Shift to Plane of Shadows.

Just a thought.


SPCDRI wrote:

I am not sure if monsters are legal, but you could play as a Fetchling. I've long thought a Fetchling Ninja would be so much fun.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/fetchling

Wisdom penalty hurts, but you'd save 3 points overall if you wanted to start with a 16 Charisma. You'd be down the skills and one feat but in return you would get...

Low-light vision AND Darkvision
+2 to Knowledge (Planes) and Stealth checks
50 percent miss chance for your opponents in dim light instead of 20
By 20th level, Disguise Self as a Humanoid, Shadow Walk, Plane Shift to Plane of Shadows.

Just a thought.

And a good thought indeed, fetchling would be an excellent race for ninja, but its a bit beyond the pale for the current campaign. Jade Regent starts off low key and ramps up.

As far as sneak attack boosting talents/tricks go, I was wondering if offensive defense was the best choice (as you can only apply one at a time). Was there any other talent that was objectively better?

prototype00


I've tought about a very similar concept, however I can't see the use of opportunist, you'll most likely not depend on flanking to deliver SA as it's not flat-footed.
I would take Skill mastery, but perhaps that's not optimization.

the rest all seems fine, altough I would've picked halfling with a merciful sling to deliver SA. Unarmed strike is better at later levels, but leaves you in melee.

offensive defense seems like the best sneak complement.

I would like to read what equipment you've come up with.
Also, I would lower CHA a bit and up Int to 10, skills are still nice, and it would work well with skill mastery if you take it.

Also I wouldl like to know why you go with two-weapon fighting, the scout is made to deliver 1 attack, even if you can move 10 feet for free (like cartwheel dodge+ improved evasion).

Also I would like to hear what your GM thinks once you deal way more than your lvl in d6 of damage per round. I believe the synergies of Sap Master are too good if they work with offensive defense for example. I wait for the FAQ to arrive.


Richard Leonhart wrote:

I've tought about a very similar concept, however I can't see the use of opportunist, you'll most likely not depend on flanking to deliver SA as it's not flat-footed.

I would take Skill mastery, but perhaps that's not optimization.

Thats actually not a bad point. Opportunist isn't as useful for a mobile build. I could see switching in Feat (Skill Focus: Intimidation) around that level.

Quote:


the rest all seems fine, altough I would've picked halfling with a merciful sling to deliver SA. Unarmed strike is better at later levels, but leaves you in melee.

It was mostly for knockout artist, which is basically free damage if you use unarmed strike. The fact that a ninja can swift action turn invisible after a charge (and thus remove himself from melee) is a good defense.

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offensive defense seems like the best sneak complement.

Ah good, I thought it was.

Quote:


I would like to read what equipment you've come up with.
Also, I would lower CHA a bit and up Int to 10, skills are still nice, and it would work well with skill mastery if you take it.

Well, a ninja gets 8 skill points per level, and none of the int based skills are essential for this build (or indeed play in general). As a human ninja, even putting the bonus point in hit points, you still get 8 skill points a level due to the human skilled trait. I don't know, it seemed the easiest thing to drop for a 12 con.

Will post equipment preferences later.

Quote:


Also I wouldl like to know why you go with two-weapon fighting, the scout is made to deliver 1 attack, even if you can move 10 feet for free (like cartwheel dodge+ improved evasion).

Its a later level trick, once this character gets 3 or so attacks. The first one makes the enemy flat footed (enforcer+intimidate+shatter defenses) and the other two get the 2x SA + other bonuses mentioned earlier. As he is constantly invisible at this point, even the tertiary attacks have a good chance of hitting.

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Also I would like to hear what your GM thinks once you deal way more than your lvl in d6 of damage per round. I believe the synergies of Sap Master are too good if they work with offensive defense for example. I wait for the FAQ to arrive.

I'm assuming sap adept, offensive defense and knockout artist all work off the base number of SA dice and not the doubled you get for sap mastery. Even so thats a nice chunk of damage and AC you get just for hitting someone.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
One slightly iffy thing that I'm assuming is that the Ninja can take rogue archetypes (specifically the Scout archetype).

I'm not really a 100% up the Ninja, but why are you assuming that?


prototype00 wrote:

I was making a ninja for the Jade Regent adventure path and I thought it would be interesting to make a 20th level build for it. One slightly iffy thing that I'm assuming is that the Ninja can take rogue archetypes (specifically the Scout archetype).

Sorry but thats a bit like an Oracle taking a Cleric Archetype or a Sorcerer taking a Wizard Archetype just because they are "similiar" to some extend and fill the same roles.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Alienfreak wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

I was making a ninja for the Jade Regent adventure path and I thought it would be interesting to make a 20th level build for it. One slightly iffy thing that I'm assuming is that the Ninja can take rogue archetypes (specifically the Scout archetype).

Sorry but thats a bit like an Oracle taking a Cleric Archetype or a Sorcerer taking a Wizard Archetype just because they are "similiar" to some extend and fill the same roles.

Actually, they're not just similar. The ninja is specifically spelled out as being a rogue "alternative class", whereas the oracle is not the alternative class for the cleric.

There has been discussion on another thread for this, and it has been flagged as a faq issue. My stance, is that as an alternate rogue, (basically an extended rogue archetype itself), the ninja can take rogue archetypes.

But I may be wrong, hence, iffy issue.

Flavor wise, its a good fit, scout-ninja.

prototype00


@dunelord
an alternate class is technically the same as an archetype, it only repeats the things of the class it doesn't change, because it changes so much.
The Scout archetype doesn't replace things the ninja replaces, the ninja is still a rogue.
Ergo, you can be an awesome scout ninja.

@prototype00
I overlooked the enforcer + shatter defense trick.
In my opinion, from a not-really-optimization point of view it's not worth it. It does great damage, yes it does. But you have to roll a few attacks, skills, take a lot of feats and your damamge is most likely deadly to anyone except "bosses".
Look at all you have to do, plus go into melee, do deliver more than 1 sneak attack, and how long it will take you in real life. You could just say "I run 10 feet to the right, shoot my sling at him and deal xd6+2x damage".

Skills, I guess it comes to personal flavour. 8 is a lot, but one can always go for more if the GM likes skill checks. Also Skill Mastery (my favorite rogue talent of all) is helped by it.

Knockout artist is great, and the ninjas fists will probably be better than a katana at the end, but I wouldn't go fistfighting from level 1 on.

So in short:
Scout + enforcer and shatter defense is two ways to do the same thing, however it adds versatility.
You seem very combat offense optimized, not much to add there, but you would outshine most fighter-archers. However for a little less damage, there is great versatility potential.


Richard Leonhart wrote:


@prototype00
I overlooked the enforcer + shatter defense trick.
In my opinion, from a not-really-optimization point of view it's not worth it. It does great damage, yes it does. But you have to roll a few attacks, skills, take a lot of feats and your damamge is most likely deadly to anyone except "bosses".
Look at all you have to do, plus go into melee, do deliver more than 1 sneak attack, and how long it will take you in real life. You could just say "I run 10 feet to the right, shoot my sling at him and deal xd6+2x damage".

I guess I just like to err on the side of caution. The sooner you can take an enemy out, the less damage he does overall

Quote:


Skills, I guess it comes to personal flavour. 8 is a lot, but one can always go for more if the GM likes skill checks. Also Skill Mastery (my favorite rogue talent of all) is helped by it.

I'm finding even with 8 skill points, I'm having to make tough decisions. Skill mastery is nice, but int isn't a priority for the ninja (cha is) so its hard to justify taking, I guess.

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Knockout artist is great, and the ninjas fists will probably be better than a katana at the end, but I wouldn't go fistfighting from level 1 on.

Yeah, start off with a wakizashi, you'll do more damage and its piercing or slashing (heck, keep the thing around and upgrade it, for when you need to do lethal damage or p/s). As far as important equipment, amulet of mighty fists (agile enhancement 5k gp) with no enhancement modifier is actually cheaper than single +1 agile enhancement (8k gp).

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So in short:
Scout + enforcer and shatter defense is two ways to do the same thing, however it adds versatility.

You got it in one. Its so that you can leverage your improved sneak attack whenever. Don't know if its super worth it, or should this character work on other aspects later?

Quote:


You seem very combat offense optimized, not much to add there, but you would outshine most fighter-archers. However for a little less damage, there is great versatility potential.

What would be worth doing, you think?

prototype00


We still haven't itemized this puppy.


klevis69 wrote:
We still haven't itemized this puppy.

I see dual +5 merciful, etc Gauntlets + AoMF for more craziness.


klevis69 wrote:
klevis69 wrote:
We still haven't itemized this puppy.

I see dual +5 merciful, etc Gauntlets + AoMF for more craziness.

It occurs to me that the snake style feats, combined with offensive defense, could be a better alternative to some of the feats listed here. Perhaps the TWF feats. Seems with Haste and Ki points, you could get a fair amount of attacks anyway at high BAB, even more if you include retaliatory attacks when they miss your super high AC. Perhaps even the Enforcer/shatter defenses line.

Alternatively, after taking the Snake Style feat, 1 level in Monk, master of many styles can solve a lot of problems as it will net you improved unarmed, and the Snake Fang (end of snake style) feat (and quite early). This will also alleviate the need for combat reflexes. Since the Specific overrides the general, it also appears that you can make more than one attack of opportunity in a round, provided the trigger is an opponent missing the attack. (not 100% on this)

This seems worth a 1 level dip to me, especially if you include the saves, FOB (basically free TWF for this build), AC bonus (if any), and stunning fist. And, wearing a monk's robe will net a higher return later on...just for bonus.

Also. The Flavor is just so coooool.

Anyone have any experience in play of how often a party is not able (through the ninja using invis, or other things) allow their ninja sneak attack opportunities, without the dazzling display stuff?

Thoughts?



Human: Weapon Finesse
1st: Sap Adept
3rd: Snake Style
5th: Weapon Focus
7th: Sap Mastery
9th: Dazzling Display
11th: Shatter Defenses
13th:
15th:
17th:
19th:

Class Levels:
1 Ninja(1)
2 Ninja(2) - Ninja Trick (vanishing trick)
3 Monk (1) (master of many styles) - Bonus Feat (Snake Fang)
4 Ninja(3)
5 Ninja(4) - Ninja Trick (Offensive Defense)
6 Ninja(5)
7 Ninja(6) - Ninja Trick (Knockout Artist)
8 Ninja(7)
9 Ninja(8) - Ninja Trick (Enforcer)
10Ninja(9)
11Ninja(10) - Ninja Trick (Forgotten Trick)
12Ninja(11)

wearing a monk's robe, and an Amulet of Mighty Fist: Agile

I know that Invisible Blade is kind of a no-brainer at Ninja(10), but it actually might behoove us to stay visible as that will give us more chances to hit more things, more often. Even if other creatures come to whack us, we can whack them back and if we hit, we do sneak attack damage on the 2nd attack because of Shatter Defenses/Enforcer.

If we leave it as is, we have 3 attacks with Flurry, 1D8 + 12d6 + sap adept + knockout artist + dex per attack, then adding a nice dodge Bonus to our AC. (the rest of this is assuming that Snake Fang will allow us to return all misses on us instead of just 1) Hopefully most counter attacks will then miss us, allowing us to return (potentially) 2 more hits of all that damage again - at full attack bonus per miss on the original target. Any other targets that move in to strike will get 1 attack of 1D8+dex, and if hit, 1 attack of 1D8 + 12d6 + sap adept + knockout artist + dex. We can also use stunning fist on any of these attacks or attacks of opportunity for added awesomeness. We can also add Bleeding damage to all the attacks via Forgotten Trick and Bleeding Attack.

I think this sounds fun.

Grand Lodge

klevis69 wrote:

Human: Weapon Finesse

1st: Sap Adept
3rd: Snake Style
5th: Weapon Focus
7th: Sap Mastery
9th: Dazzling Display
11th: Shatter Defenses
13th:
15th:
17th:
19th:

Class Levels:
1 Ninja(1)
2 Ninja(2) - Ninja Trick (vanishing trick)
3 Monk (1) (master of many styles) - Bonus Feat (Snake Fang)
4 Ninja(3)
5 Ninja(4) - Ninja Trick (Offensive Defense)
6 Ninja(5)
7 Ninja(6) - Ninja Trick (Knockout Artist)
8 Ninja(7)
9 Ninja(8) - Ninja Trick (Enforcer)
10Ninja(9)
11Ninja(10) - Ninja Trick (Forgotten Trick)
12Ninja(11)

wearing a monk's robe, and an Amulet of Mighty Fist: Agile

I know that Invisible Blade is kind of a no-brainer at Ninja(10), but it actually might behoove us to stay visible as that will give us more chances to hit more things, more often. Even if other creatures come to whack us, we can whack them back and if we hit, we do sneak attack damage on the 2nd attack because of Shatter Defenses/Enforcer.

If we leave it as is, we have 3 attacks with Flurry, 1D8 + 12d6 + sap adept + knockout artist + dex per attack, then adding a nice dodge Bonus to our AC. (the rest of this is assuming that Snake Fang will allow us to return all misses on us instead of just 1) Hopefully most counter attacks will then miss us, allowing us to return (potentially) 2 more hits of all that damage again - at full attack bonus per miss on the original target. Any other targets that move in to strike will get 1 attack of 1D8+dex, and if hit, 1 attack of 1D8 + 12d6 + sap adept + knockout artist + dex. We can also use stunning fist on any of these attacks or attacks of opportunity for added awesomeness. We can also add Bleeding damage to all the attacks via Forgotten Trick and Bleeding Attack.

I think this sounds fun.

I tip my hat to you good sir, this is exactly the type of build i have been looking for. Do you mind if i use it? I have been trying to build a character loosely modeled after Vash the Stampede from the anime Trigun. If you haven't had the pleasure of seeing this show, Vash is a charismatic pacifist who in game pathfinder play would have a very high AC based on dex and dodge, and have great diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate skills. In the show he is a gun slinger who never kills but im more looking at his character more than what his specific class would be. I've checked out alot of builds, posted a to a few forums for help and have been presented with some builds that had a higher AC, some with higher nonlethal and pacifistic ability, and some that even used blunt bolts with a crossbow to better fit Vash's true class but overall this is build makes the best character for the style of play im looking for.

Great build!


Only thing is, maste me of many style have no flurry ....

Grand Lodge

666bender wrote:
Only thing is, maste me of many style have no flurry ....

True but using snake fang allows for two extra attacks everytime someone misses your insane armor class from offensive defense. You should be able to knock out most level appreciate foes in a matter of 2 rounds after getting that feat assuming you also have a high lethal damage dealing tank on your team. Stay close to them and foes will fall at your feet where ever you go.

Grand Lodge

*level appropriate foes. (Damn predictive text)

Silver Crusade

I don't believe Snake Fang is going to allow more than 1 AoO without Combat Reflexes. Snake Fang doesn't add AoOs, it just adds conditions that allow you to use the AoOs you already have.

In regards to some previous questions in the thread:

Richard Leonhart is correct. "Alternate class" is another way of saying "fully fleshed out archetype". The ninja counts as a rogue for anything that affects rogues and can take rogue archetypes as long as being a ninja hasn't already swapped out essential class abilities.

Something you may want to consider is, instead of using your fists, you use a pair of sai. People always think of sai as piercing weapons because of the way they look, but they were more used as bludgeoning weapons by slapping people with the flat of the blade and to allow you to parry and disarm your opponent more effectively.


klevis69 wrote:

Human: Weapon Finesse

1st: Sap Adept
3rd: Snake Style
5th: Weapon Focus
7th: Sap Mastery
9th: Dazzling Display
11th: Shatter Defenses
13th:
15th:
17th:
19th:

Class Levels:
1 Ninja(1)
2 Ninja(2) - Ninja Trick (vanishing trick)
3 Monk (1) (master of many styles) - Bonus Feat (Snake Fang)
4 Ninja(3)
5 Ninja(4) - Ninja Trick (Offensive Defense)
6 Ninja(5)
7 Ninja(6) - Ninja Trick (Knockout Artist)
8 Ninja(7)
9 Ninja(8) - Ninja Trick (Enforcer)
10Ninja(9)
11Ninja(10) - Ninja Trick (Forgotten Trick)
12Ninja(11)

Did I miss something? How do you get Snake Fang at 3rd lvl without getting Snake Sidewinder, Combat Reflexes, or 6 and 9 ranks in Acrobatics and Sense Motive respectively?


by playing 5 years ago when the rules were different.

So someone is going to say nice necro soon, because you replied to a 3 year old thread.

A good rule of thumb is that anything over a year has had potential rules changes and shouldn't be replied to. Have a similar/the same question. Post a new question if you can't find the answer in older threads. Don't know how someone's build works? Assume it was different rules, cause it most likely is.


Nice necro...

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