Gunslinging


Advice


I am currently running a Campaign, and one of my players decided to play a gunslinger. I helped him during character creation, but unless i missed something or i am reading the rules wrong, the guy's character is quite underpowered, which makes me feel kinda bad for him as he is one of the best role-players in the group. I want to help him improve his character at least a bit so he is somewhat useful and enjoys playing his Gunslinger.

Al other players are 3rd level, so he created his PC as a 3rd level Gunslinger.

His ability Scores (22 point buy system; +2 Human Racial Bonus Included) are:

7 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

He wants to play with 2 Pistols, so his feats are:
-Two Weapon Fighting
-Quick Draw
-Rapid Reload

I house-ruled that loading a two-handed firearm takes the same action as loading two-pistols (1 Full round action, 1 standard with rapid reload)

So, unless i am missing something, he would deal 2d8 damage on round 1, 0 damage on round 2 (as he needs to reload), and 2d8 damage con round 3, 0 damage on round 4, etc... which results on a mere 1d8 damage per turn. When compared with a 20str, Two-handed Fighter, with power attack, (2d6+10 damage per turn), it seems quite disappointing. I'm not saying he should rival the fighter on damage output as he can hit touch AC, and has some deeds, but the difference (1~8 vs 12~22) is way too overwhelming.

Can you guys help me?, did i understand any firearm rule wrong?, are the feats and/or ability scores badly chosen?.


Gio wrote:

I am currently running a Campaign, and one of my players decided to play a gunslinger. I helped him during character creation, but unless i missed something or i am reading the rules wrong, the guy's character is quite underpowered, which makes me feel kinda bad for him as he is one of the best role-players in the group. I want to help him improve his character at least a bit so he is somewhat useful and enjoys playing his Gunslinger.

Al other players are 3rd level, so he created his PC as a 3rd level Gunslinger.

His ability Scores (22 point buy system; +2 Human Racial Bonus Included) are:

7 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

He wants to play with 2 Pistols, so his feats are:
-Two Weapon Fighting
-Quick Draw
-Rapid Reload

I house-ruled that loading a two-handed firearm takes the same action as loading two-pistols (1 Full round action, 1 standard with rapid reload)

So, unless i am missing something, he would deal 2d8 damage on round 1, 0 damage on round 2 (as he needs to reload), and 2d8 damage con round 3, 0 damage on round 4, etc... which results on a mere 1d8 damage per turn. When compared with a 20str, Two-handed Fighter, with power attack, (2d6+10 damage per turn), it seems quite disappointing. I'm not saying he should rival the fighter on damage output as he can hit touch AC, and has some deeds, but the difference (1~8 vs 12~22) is way too overwhelming.

Can you guys help me?, did i understand any firearm rule wrong?, are the feats and/or ability scores badly chosen?.

How is he going to carry his gear? Let alone wear any form of decent armor. He'll be encumbered wearing light armor and any gear At a 7 strength he is passed light encumbrance at 23 lbs(A Musket weighs 9 lbs, and leather armor weighs 15 lbs, with just these two things his movement has decreased from 30 feet to 20 feet at 47 lbs weight he is dropped to a movement of 10 feet). It costs a lot to be a gunslinger and he would have to buy a horse with a saddle and saddle bags just to handle his gear. Sure he does not need strength for combat but he will need to be mobile a 10-20 ft move on a gunslinger is just asking him to be mobbed.

Try going Pistoleer he will get some decent bonuses and could cross class with Rogue to add sneak attack to up close and personal. His damage should be a lot better. With Rapid Reload he would be able to load paper cartridges into one barrel of a pistol as a free action.


That would work for a single pistol, but how about two? He'd need a free hand whenever he has to reload... ergo he needs a third hand or a way to sheathe a weapon as a free action. Does Quick Draw cover sheathing a weapon as well as drawing it out?


The Shaman wrote:
That would work for a single pistol, but how about two? He'd need a free hand whenever he has to reload... ergo he needs a third hand or a way to sheathe a weapon as a free action. Does Quick Draw cover sheathing a weapon as well as drawing it out?

at 11th lightning reload will allow an extra barrel, you could try double barrel weapons as well.


First of all, thanks for your advice so far.
How about this distribution (human bonus already applied on Dex).

12Str, 18Dex, 12Con, 10Int, 16Wis, 08Cha

As i didn't see any advice on the feats, i guess the choice of his 3 feats is okay? Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, and Rapid Reload.

I could not find anywhere whether a pistol is considered a light weapon for purposes of Two-weapon fighting, but judging from its weight (4lbs), i concluded it is. Which means he is looking at a +5 Atk Bonus con each pistol, with penalty included.

I checked out the pistolero which is actually a very good option.

Now, i would be grateful if you helped me clear out what the sequence should be with the reloading thing.

He shoots both weapons on first round, on second round he needs to reload both of them, with quick draw and rapid reload this takes a round right?, so he can attack with both weapons on 3rd round again?.

Even with a Double-barred weapon i still find his low damage output unfair. I mean, he would be dealing 4d8 damage every 3 rounds, which is 6 Average Damage a round, while a Fighter is dealing 17 average damage a round. The gunslinger spent 1000gp on his second weapon, and he spends 11gp every time he fires both weapons, while the fighter just spent 50gp on a Great Sword. I don't want him to feel so small when battle pops up. What would you do to improve him further?, is there any hidden trait or feat to make a TWF gunslinger work? (something than can be attained by a Level 3 character).

Sovereign Court

Gio wrote:


Now, i would be grateful if you helped me clear out what the sequence should be with the reloading thing.

He shoots both weapons on first round, on second round he needs to reload both of them, with quick draw and rapid reload this takes a round right?, so he can attack with both weapons on 3rd round again?.

Even with a Double-barred weapon i still find his low damage output unfair. I mean, he would be dealing 4d8 damage every 3 rounds, which is 6 Average Damage a round, while a Fighter is dealing 17 average damage a round. The gunslinger spent 1000gp on his second weapon, and he spends 11gp every time he fires both weapons, while the fighter just spent 50gp on a Great Sword. I don't want him to feel so small when battle pops up. What would you do to improve him further?, is there any hidden trait or feat to make a TWF gunslinger work? (something than can be attained by a Level 3 character).

If you are worried that he will be sitting out every other round just reloading, why not have him use revolvers instead?


They cost 4000gp and a 3rd Level PC total wealth is 5000gp.

Sovereign Court

Gio wrote:
They cost 4000gp and a 3rd Level PC total wealth is 5000gp.

DM Fiat covers that...especially if the other players agree. ;) Unfortunately, due to the fact that guns are supposed to be rare, and them deciding that cost would be the factor, this has caused many players trouble. I've been running Kingmaker with 6 players, one being a gunslinger, and it has caused no issues with him having 2 revolvers. If anything, I think the other players have enjoyed having one in the party more now than any of them thought they would.


You are right, i will allow it, and treat them as battered firearms only he can use were he to sell them later on the campaign (4d10gp).

Lantern Lodge

Gio wrote:

You are right, i will allow it, and treat them as battered firearms only he can use were he to sell them later on the campaign (4d10gp).

That's pretty much what we did in my group as well. We allowed him to have one as his starting firearm, but ruled that he had to be from Alkenstar and take the Rich Parents and Hierloom Weapon traits to help give a role playing explaination as to why he had one from 1st lvl. We're 7th now and it hasn't caused a single problem yet nor do I see it doing so in the future.


Realmwalker wrote:
The Shaman wrote:
That would work for a single pistol, but how about two? He'd need a free hand whenever he has to reload... ergo he needs a third hand or a way to sheathe a weapon as a free action. Does Quick Draw cover sheathing a weapon as well as drawing it out?
at 11th lightning reload will allow an extra barrel, you could try double barrel weapons as well.

At those levels if he (or she?) doesn't have revolvers already, he needs to speak to the party smart guy to invent them :) .


What have you set the firearm proliferation at? The default prices are for the default proliferation (Emerging Guns). If you set it at "Commonplace Guns" the prices drop to 25% of what they are listed at, and gunsmithing allows one to be crafted at half that price (revolver costs 1000gp). If you set it at "Guns Everywhere" then it costs 10% of the listed price to buy or craft (revolver costs 400gp). However, revolvers are meant to be extremely rare high level treasure at the Emerging and still cost full listed price in Commonplace.

If you are in Guns Everywhere, you also have to remember that he doesn't get the Gunsmithing bonus feat. They get Gun Training instead, which lets him add his Dex to damage with one gun type.

Now, two-weapon fighting is useless if he's using a Musket, so he probably wants to use pistols instead. This makes reloading a problem of course since he needs a hand free in order to reload. If he is using pistols he can reload as a free action if he has Rapid Reload and is using alchemical cartridges for ammo (though it does increase his misfire rate).

He might want to get two pistols, use alchemical cartridges, and switch them out if one misfires. That way he won't lose a round, and can switch his Two-Weapon fighting to Weapon Focus or Extra Grit.

My big suggestion would be that he get himself a pepperbox pistol. He can make himself one at Emerging Guns for only 1500, and it lets him fire for 6 rounds before needing to reload (remember, he needs a free hand to twist to a new barrel as a free action). If he happens to run out, he can switch to a new pistol or use Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges to reload as many barrels as you deem reasonable as a free action. It does have a slightly higher misfire than a normal pistol or revolver (even higher with alchemical cartridges), but it solves the reloading problem without requiring an adjustment to the proliferation level.

He can also use a Move Action to repair it if it breaks because of a misfire if he uses Grit thanks to the Quick Clear ability, or a Standard Action if he only has a point of Grit he hasn't spent.

Revolvers are really nice, but they shouldn't be the go-to answer for any problems with reloading. They're extremely valuable for a reason after all and period dependent. Remember, the proliferation period can have major consequences for the campaign, as guns completely crowd out other types of ranged weapons at higher levels.

EDIT: You also have to remember that you are increasing the players costs to use the gun if you give him a revolver. Revolvers require you to use metal cartridges, which are more expensive.

If he makes his own ammo:
Gunpowder and Bullet - 1 gp and 1 sp
Alchemical cartridge - 1 gp and 2 sp
Metal Cartridge - 1 gp and 5 sp.

That cost is going to build up.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's already been pointed out that the initial ability scores made him unable to even carry his equipment, but on the other things:

What you are missing is the additional benefit of using alchemical cartridges (pg. 140): "Alchemical cartridges make reloading a firearm easier, reducing the time to reload a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)..." A gunslinger with Rapid Reload can load a one-handed firearm with alchemical cartridges as a free action. Combined with weapon cords from the Advanced Player's Guide (retrive weapon as a swift action), the gunslinger can fire both pistols for the first two rounds of combat: fire both pistols (full-attack action), drop pistol 1 attached by weapon cord (free action), reload pistol 2 with alchemical cartridge (free action), drop pistol 2 attached by weapon cord (free action), retrieve pistol 1 (swift action), load pistol 1 with alchemical cartridge (free action); next round, retrieve pistol 2 (swift action), fire both pistols (full-attack action). After the second round, the limit of one swift action per round means you have to alternate pistols. The Quick Clear deed is available in case of a misfire.

As far as feats go, I'd probably go with Point Blank Shot or Deadly Aim instead of Quick Draw at this point. Also, don't forget that gunslingers get the Gunsmithing feat for free at 1st level, allowing them to make black powder and bullets/pellets at 10% market price and early firearms and alchemical cartridges at 50% market price (as long as they have 1 rank in Craft (Alchemy) for the ammunition and access to a gunsmith's kit).

For future development, I'd recommend upgrading to double-barreled pistols and picking up Rapid Shot. By 7th level (with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), the gunslinger will be blazing away with 5 shots in the first round of combat (two from double-barreled pistol 1 with Rapid Shot, two off-hand iteratives from double-barreled pistol 2, drop pistol 2, reload a barrel of pistol 1, fire the second primary iterative as the last shot). Snap Shot is also worth looking at.


Having seen two gunslingers at tables I assure you, at any level below 5, they seem incredibly overpowered damage wise. The ability to crit for x4 combined with only having to hit touch AC's is very powerful.

HOWEVER...I've ALSO yet to see a session where a gun didn't jam at least twice, and one time a guy had three jams in one combat. This negates a lot of damage (as the GS now has to clear the barrel) but it also seems to be one of the few things the GS actually spends grit on. Just things I noticed.

As a side note: I'm not up on the numbers but none of my GS's used Alch rounds. They all went with paper cartridges. Then again they also don't have access to advanced firearms.


The thing with the firearms rules is that firing two weapons at once just doesn't work well with the rules as they are, despite what any of the art shows.

It was kind of you to rule that loading both is the same as loading a two-handed firearm but it still leaves two big problems that he has to overcome.

First, as has been mentioned, you need a free hand to load a firearm. With a two-handed weapon you can hold it in one while not wielding it in combat so you are fine, but you can't really do that with two separate weapons. You could go ahead and house rule away the free hand to reload when you have two-weapon fighting or something to make this not be an issue... or he could build a really strange character that probably doesn't meet his ideas of what a gunslinger is (i.e. dip into witch or alchemist enough to get prehensile hair, vestigial arm, or a tentacle). But if you guys want him to wield two guns at once this limitation has to be dealt with by changes the rules or changing his build.

Second, when building a gun-fighter of any kind, your goal is to get loading that firearm down to a free action. You HAVE to do this if you want to have good damage output.

If you are using a single handed firearm (by the rules), you have a standard action to reload. You need to get that down to a free action (2 steps down) if at all possible. This isn't tough, rapid reload and alchemical cartidges will do it for you. Since you only have one gun, you could even hold off on this for a few levels for money or feat reasons until you get more attacks through BAB... you are just not as mobile in the mean time.

Using a two-handed fire-arm, or how you have houseruled two one-handers, this is a lot tougher. You have to reduce the reload time by three steps from a full round action to free. This is even more important for the two-weapon wielder as they need a full attack action to get both shots off as well. The only way for the two-handed gunslinger to do this is to either wait to lvl 11 (not really a good option unless you are starting at high levels) or take the musketeer archetype which allows you to lessen the load times of that two-handed fire-arm by one step.

There in, I believe, lies the answer to your conundrum. I would suggest creating a two-pistol wielding archetype for your players. It would only need to allow you to reload while you have a pistol in both hands and you could then toss out your house rule that it takes a full round action to reload both. With that one change he can get the reload down to a free action and would be shooting in every round.

As for where he is against fighters in damage output, you are assuming that the fighter hits every time... he won't. The gunslinger though may just be able to say that... he is shooting against touch AC... that's a BIG deal.

Sean Mahoney


Sean Mahoney wrote:


Using a two-handed fire-arm, or how you have houseruled two one-handers, this is a lot tougher. You have to reduce the reload time by three steps from a full round action to free. This is even more important for the two-weapon wielder as they need a full attack action to get both shots off as well. The only way for the two-handed gunslinger to do this is to either wait to lvl 11 (not really a good option...

Muskey Master gets to treat 2 handers as one handed (for reload). Add in rapid reload + paper cartiridge = free action.


Gio wrote:
I could not find anywhere whether a pistol is considered a light weapon for purposes of Two-weapon fighting, but judging from its weight (4lbs), i concluded it is.

This is a very generous house rule and, since you seem to be trying to make this as easy as possible for the player, that's fine. Generally speaking, you do not get the light weapon reductions to two weapon fighting. The only exception to this seems to be the Hand Crossbow which states:

RAW wrote:
You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

Firearms contain no such language.

Again, your house rule for your game, so YMM[will]V

--JD


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Have you heard of Weapon Cord? I read about it in the gunslinger guide thread. You might want to check that out, get some ideas for your player's character.


Quote:


This is a very generous house rule and, since you seem to be trying to make this as easy as possible for the player, that's fine. Generally speaking, you do not get the light weapon reductions to two weapon fighting. The only exception to this seems to be the Hand Crossbow which states:

Firearms contain no such language.

Again, your house rule for your game, so YMM[will]V

--JD

Yeah, you would count as wielding 2 one handed ones. You could wield small ones though (then they would be light).


Starbuck_II wrote:
Muskey Master gets to treat 2 handers as one handed (for reload). Add in rapid reload + paper cartiridge = free action.

Yeah, I meant Musket Master later in that sentence... Musketeer is a cavalier archetype I think...

Oh well...

Sean Mahoney


Starbuck_II wrote:
Yeah, you would count as wielding 2 one handed ones. You could wield small ones though (then they would be light).

You'd be wielding them at a -4 penalty (-2 for inappropriate size and -2 for TWF) and you'd be down one die type for each (1d6 instead of 1d8).

SRD: Weapon Size wrote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

--JD


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

On reloading:

Weapon cords help a two pistol gunslinger lot at lower levels (as I mentioned earlier). Eventually, however, you want a ring of spell storing or a custom item that lets you activate a reloading hands (Ultimate Combat; 2nd-level magus, ranger, or sorcerer/wizard spell) effect.


The Shaman wrote:
At those levels if he (or she?) doesn't have revolvers already, he needs to speak to the party smart guy to invent them :) .

The Gunsmith Feat received at Level 1 allows the Gunslinger to make their own guns, though they still need the material components to do so. It is still costly, but it handles the rarity aspect when you can build your own firearms based on familiarity.


I've just recently made a Gunslinger who duel wields revolvers, and i need to know if you can create or purchase metal cartridges that contain special metals. In order to get past damage reduction, i need to be able to shoot cold iron or adamantine bullets. Another thing, do shots from metal cartridges count as piercing or bludgeoning damage?


I only really skimmed this thread, but the easier you make it for the Gunslinger now, the more you're going to regret it later. At 5th level he'll start getting DEX to damage. As the characters level and fight larger CR monsters, the monsters' AC will continue to rise, their touch AC will continue to drop. With no house rules at all, a Pistoleer can reload as a free action (Rapid Reload Alchemical cartridges) at first level. The only saving grace is the 20' Range inc, but even at 60' he'll be better than most archers since he doesn't need STR like they do.

At 5th level you're going to see things drastically shift. Touch AC's are going to start dropping, he's going to get DEX to damage, will probably have Deadly Aim. Assuming he finds someway to reload, he'll be doing 2d8+18 (each gun 1d8+4 DEX, +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank) will do every round and rarely if ever miss. At 6th level (keeping the stats the same) he'll be doing 3d8+27 (iterative attack from BAB) per round and rarely miss. At 7th it will be 4d8+36 (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). Also remember this is ranged, so he'll get full attacks more often than not. Again short range pistols may help on this a bit, but overall expect he'll get full attacks.

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