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Does the Furious weapon ability counts for bypassing DR?
Is there an official reply?
I would say no, but official reply I have not
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I would say no, but official reply I have not
IMO, this probably works like Greater Magic Weapon. Boosts the statistics but is not able to bypass DR like a true +3 or higher item.
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Yes. Be happy. No official reply required as its pretty straight forward.
When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.
Furious acts as an additional +2 enhancement bonus while raging. It modifies the actual enhancement bonus of the weapon. Hence a +1 furious weapon, while raging, is treated as a +3 weapon for all intended purposes including bypassing DR/col iron and silver
I would say no, but official reply I have notIMO, this probably works like Greater Magic Weapon. Boosts the statistics but is not able to bypass DR like a true +3 or higher item.
This is how I would rule it, ruling it otherwise just goes back to making actual enhancements redundant. As well as cheapening DR/Epic too much.
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I would say no, but official reply I have notIMO, this probably works like Greater Magic Weapon. Boosts the statistics but is not able to bypass DR like a true +3 or higher item.
Greater magic weapon is completely different. It gives you an enhancement bonus that does not stack with the weapons inherent bonus. Furious actually modifies the inherent bonus. It say the bonus that was +1 is now +3 while raging. As such it should apply to everything that an enhancement bonus does. If they wanted it to not apply to DR they would have stated it in the description for furious. It is in the description for greater magic weapon because it is a specific rule that is over riding the general rule that enhancement bonuses by pass DR.
As a side note...if you scroll through the various barbarian threads you will see this is a general opinion.
I would say no, but official reply I have notIMO, this probably works like Greater Magic Weapon. Boosts the statistics but is not able to bypass DR like a true +3 or higher item.Greater magic weapon is completely different. It gives you an enhancement bonus that does not stack with the weapons inherent bonus. Furious actually modifies the inherent bonus. It say the bonus that was +1 is now +3 while raging. As such it should apply to everything that an enhancement bonus does. If they wanted it to not apply to DR they would have stated it in the description for furious. It is in the description for greater magic weapon because it is a specific rule that is over riding the general rule that enhancement bonuses by pass DR.
As a side note...if you scroll through the various barbarian threads you will see this is a general opinion.
Most verbal opinion isn't necesarily the general opinion, or the right one. Many people reply in these forums to defend their own interests in the game which is most often as players benefiting from a favored gear set. I tend to houserule quite a bit, anything that gets picked too much as a feat or piece of gear is either too good or the fundamentals are skewed badly enough to warrant a stealth upgrade.
As on the penetration of DR I take that to be limited to weapons that are specifically enchanted till +1,+2,+3 etc.
On a related note how would you rule a +1 evil outsider bane sword that is enchanted with GMW to +3, would it function as a +5 weapon or a +3 weapon versus outsiders ?
thanks for answers.
please help us get an official reply.
hit the faq on my op.
This is how I would rule it, ruling it otherwise just goes back to making actual enhancements redundant. As well as cheapening DR/Epic too much.
This is exactly why I came to my conclusion, PF has strived to make actual inherent enhancement bonuses relevant again. I also noted that this is not definitive but is my best guess. It is an err on the side of caution without any direct evidence to support one way or the other.
As such it should apply to everything that an enhancement bonus does. If they wanted it to not apply to DR they would have stated it in the description for furious.
This is the RAW on the matter, however, the intent of the designers sometimes fluctuates and changes with FAQ or discussion. It is the existence of GMW that I even bring up my hesitation.
On a related note how would you rule a +1 evil outsider bane sword that is enchanted with GMW to +3, would it function as a +5 weapon or a +3 weapon versus outsiders ?
It would function as a +5 for damage and attack but as a plus three for the purposes of DR. This is because as stated earlier Greater magic wqeapon specifically does not effect DR.
The ability does not reference GMW, which doesn´t apply to DR because it has specific text saying so.
The ability does say it increases the numeric bonus of the existing enhancement bonus (´the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal´), which barring other restrictions, means that it is treated just like a normal permanent enhancement bonus except the number is higher... which means it should penetrate DR as per the higher number. Additionally, the part of it that grants a bonus to skills says ´this bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (including the +2 when the wielder is raging)´ which clearly shows that the ´hightened´ enhancement bonus is considered ´the enhancement bonus of the weapon´ with no caveats (e.g. for DR).
Also, look at Magic Weapon vs. Greater Magic Weapon. Magic Weapon DOESN´T have any language about not applying vs. DR, while GMW´s exception acknowledges that it DOES apply vs DR/Magic (which is overcome with +1 enhancement, and which Magic Weapon DOES apply to since there is no exception preventing it´s +1 enhancement bonus from working normally).
Maezer´s James Jacobs quote seems to support this.
As I stated this is going to fall into the same boat as the Bane (type) enchantment as an ability that increases a weapons enhancement bonus in certain situations.
While not an official FAQ/errata, this is one of the posts by which I based my answer that it would effect what DR in bypasses.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/baneWeaponVsDamageReduction&page=1&source=search#12
James J is great, but not always great on rules. That said, there is a quote somewhere from Jason Nelson saying GMW and the Inquisitor's bane does not count vs. DR (more that magic) because they are temporary modifiers, unlike bane weapons. So bane (and Furious ) should penetrate DR just like JJ said.
Still want an official answer.@Quandary.
Nice you of you to help out...you always do :-)
Remind me of helping you out when ever you need an FAQ answer. I will anser you on the Rage Prophet when I get the time.
Have a nice weekend. Kind regards.
AFAIK, there isn´t any rule distinguishing temporary (or contingent) enhancement bonus from permanent enhancement bonus.
GMW specifically doesn´t count re: DR (beyond /magic), but Furious doesn´t even require GMW.
It may well be that the intent is for Furious not to overcome DR, but I don´t know anything in the RAW to support that.
I also don´t know anything in RAW that would suggest that Inquisitor´s Bane is in any way different than a normal Bane enhancement (other than how it gets stronger), or how that higher effective enhancement is in any way different than an actual enhancement bonus. The section on DR and enhancement bonus doesn´t seem to care whether that bonus is temporary or what... As I said before, ´normal´ Magic Weapon spell doesn´t mention ANYTHING about DR, and thus DOES count towards DR (/magic, the only thing that +1 counters), which GMW also does (just not other DR´s overcome via it´s higher enhancement bonus). So there doesn´t appear to be a general rule about temp bonuses not applying, and there is no specific rule making it not apply vs. DR.
I´m not familiar with what Jason Nelson wrote, he could have written something indicating that RAI is for temporary enhancement bonuses not to apply vs DR, i.e. guidance that is contrary to RAW. But AFAIK Jason Nelson is just a contributor and doesn´t have a role in the Core Rules themselves, so even if he wrote the Inquisitor believing that Inquisitor Bane wouldn´t/shouldn´t apply vs. DR, that can´t be taken as a sign of the Core Rules intent, rather, just as his own intent re: Inquisitor... And if he mis-apprehended the Core Rules intent, he may well be fine with Inquisitor Bane working like all other temporary enhancement bonuses (except GMW, the exception).
As I stated this is going to fall into the same boat as the Bane (type) enchantment as an ability that increases a weapons enhancement bonus in certain situations.
While not an official FAQ/errata, this is one of the posts by which I based my answer that it would effect what DR in bypasses.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/baneWeaponVsDamageReduction&page=1&source=search#12James J is great, but not always great on rules. That said, there is a quote somewhere from Jason Nelson saying GMW and the Inquisitor's bane does not count vs. DR (more that magic) because they are temporary modifiers, unlike bane weapons. So bane (and Furious ) should penetrate DR just like JJ said.
Still want an official answer.@Quandary.
** spoiler omitted **
I wouldn't hold out on that official answer. If the developers feel that there is no ambiguity with the way its written you won't hear anything from them. I would say, pick one side and play with it.
I wouldn't hold out on that official answer. If the developers feel that there is no ambiguity with the way its written you won't hear anything from them. I would say, pick one side and play with it.
I actually sort of need an official aswer.
This question has been up in many threads, but mostly regarding Bane, so I'm not the only one wanting an answer.It would be nice if JB or Sean could add a post in this thread, if they can't post the answer in the FAQ.
I actually sort of need an official aswer.
This question has been up in many threads, but mostly regarding Bane, so I'm not the only one wanting an answer.It would be nice if JB or Sean could add a post in this thread, if they can't post the answer in the FAQ.
It'll be a while to wait, all we can do is FAQ and when they get time to examine things they will.
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Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
...
Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.
Noticeably different wording for the two properties.
Reading the bane property I would think that the "actual bonus" is what matter when you need to penetrate a specific DR.
Reading furious I get the impression that the "actual bonus" change.
Then there are things like an Holy avenger: +2 cold iron normally, +5 in the hand of a paladin.
As I don't want to "gift" the bonus inherent in a increase of two level of DR penetration for the cost of only a +1 increase in rice my gut level ruling would be that only the unmodified bonus matter. In particular I would be against giving that bonus to the furious weapon, as the bonus work when the user is in a particular frame of mind.
The bane weapon at least has been made to damage a specific set of creatures and so there is some "background" reason why it work better at penetrating their DR.
The holy avenger is a special case as giving it the power to bypass DR as a +5 weapon when in the hand of a paladin would somewhat mimicry the smite evil ability of the paladin and be thematically correct.
Still it is a situation nebulous enough that it can be worth a FAQ.
Noticeably different wording for the two properties.
Meanin the same thing. You are over analyzing the rules.
As I don't want to "gift" the bonus inherent in a increase of two level of DR penetration for the cost of only a +1 increase in rice my gut level ruling would be that only the unmodified bonus matter.
only the unmodified bonus matter? So a +2 furious weapon should be worse than a +3 weapon? At higher levels beating DR is more imprtant than +1 to attack and damage. GMW is a better choise.
The holy avenger is a special case....
It is? Paladin OK. Barbarian not ok?
Not to mention the Paaladin can get himself a nice silver braclet giving him one more smite per day at +4 Paladin level (and fighters get the dueling gloves that staks with any bonus fronm a better weapon.)
.....as giving it the power to bypass DR as a +5 weapon when in the hand of a paladin would somewhat mimicry the smite evil ability of the paladin and be thematically correct.
It is +5 regardless if the Paladin smites or not and it's +5 vs. evil, neutral andgood foes. And she can add Divine bond to boost the sword some more.
I'm reading 'Paladin toys OK, Barbarian toys not ok'. Or am I over analyzing what you wrote? ;-)
Still it is a situation nebulous enough that it can be worth a FAQ.
On this we agree.
My gut feeling agrees with Diego, I already think furious weapon is already too cheap, it gives barbarians a better weapon too easily.
I just have the feeling the rule to penetrate DR was meant to make actual enchanted swords up to +5 interesting, furious focus is a pretty bad violator of that principle I think. The Inquisitor's Bane ability is just as bad and cheapens the smiting judgement considerably.
Holy Avenger I am ok with, I think that the +5 weapon is the natural state of the sword that only functions as a +2 sword in the hands of non-paladins. Also I think the price calculated was an actual +5 weapon with a discount modifier for being a packet deal for one class.
It is? Paladin OK. Barbarian not ok?
Not to mention the Paaladin can get himself a nice silver braclet giving him one more smite per day at +4 Paladin level (and fighters get the dueling gloves that staks with any bonus fronm a better weapon.)
Woah, wait a minute. It's not the same thing. Paladin wouuld have to pay 120 000 gold for Holy Avenger and be forced to use a longsword, whereas Barbarian just has to pay 8300 on any weapon and gain an actual +3 weapon.
'While raging'. Please, like Barbarians are out of rage while in combat. The most idiotic weapon special ability. Might as well make one for other fighty classes. +1, but +3 while wearing armor.
Zark I think you are overreacting, or you have missed this:
my gut level rulingI am in no way suggesting that anyone should follow my opinion, simply expressing one.
Yep I did. Sorry,
Woah, wait a minute. It's not the same thing. Paladin wouuld have to pay 120 000 gold for Holy Avenger and be forced to use a longsword, whereas Barbarian just has to pay 8300 on any weapon and gain an actual +3 weapon.
'While raging'. Please, like Barbarians are out of rage while in combat. The most idiotic weapon special ability. Might as well make one for other fighty classes. +1, but +3 while wearing armor.
I'm not saying the barb is a crappy class in need of a good weapon.
That said, the fighter and the paladin got some VERY good stuff in the APG with bonuses that stack with magic weapons. Stuff like Gloves of Dueling and Silver Smite Bracelet.120 000 gold for Holy Avenger? It's a +5 cold iron holy sword with SR and greater dispel magic at will.
A cold iron +7 weapon without SR and greater dispel magic at will cost 100 000 gp, so the price is great. And if the Paladin drops the weapon the foe can't use the +7 weapon against the Paladin, ....unless the foe is a paladin. And the Paladin might even add his Divine Bond to boost it.
So a +2 Furious Weapon should be worse than a +3 sword? Seriously. A +4 sword that can only bypass DR is way worse that a +3 sword at higher levels.. The extra +1 to hit and damage is pointless if it's just like a +2 sword with a +2 boost to hit and damage. at lower levels it's nice but at mid levels and higher levels it, more or less, suck. It's worse than a fighter with a magic weapon and a pair of Gloves of Dueling. At lower levels, when DR doesn't matter that much, the barb are sometimes "out of rage while in combat", at higher levels (when DR matter) the Furious Weapon becomes less useful because adding a special ability becomes more and more expensive and DR is more common and thus a bigger problem.
A barb with a +2 Furious Weapon: 18 000 gp
A fighter with a +2 sword and Gloves of Dueling: 8 000 gp + 15,000 gp = 23 000 gp.
A barb with a +3 Furious Weapon: 32,000 gp
A fighter with a +3 sword and Gloves of Dueling: 18,000 gp + 15,000 gp = 33 000 gp.
A barb with a +4 Furious Weapon = 50 000 gp
A fighter with a +4 sword and Gloves of Dueling: 32,000 gp + 15,000 gp = 47 000 gp.
And it just get worse and worse. Me, I think fighters should get even more stuff, but that doesn't mean the Furious weapon is too good.
Regardless and answer from JB or Sean would be nice.
So far I have seen no good hand slot item usable by a barb.
Edit: and no, a barb can't always rage...as in out of rounds of rage per day while in combat, or fatigued or exhausted.
And does the Scabbards of Vigor ability count for bypassing DR?
Doesn't any magic weapon overcome DR/magic?
Doesn't any magic weapon overcome DR/magic?
This thread is referring to the ability of a +3 weapon to bypass DR/silver or DR/cold iron, etc.
Doesn't any magic weapon overcome DR/magic?
Except Amulet of Might Strikes. You nmeed the Body Wrap for that.
But most magic weapons do.
thanks for answers.
please help us get an official reply.
hit the faq on my op.
Hardly worth FAQing. The answer is a clear yes.