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Double barreled weapons


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does anyone know if there is an offical ruling on how the double barreled weapons work as far a wheather its 2 attacks or just double damage?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
Does anyone know if there is an offical ruling on how the double barreled weapons work as far a wheather its 2 attacks or just double damage?

Double-barrelled firearms can fired separately as independent actions or at once. If fired simultaneously, the must target the same creature or take a -4 penalty to each. Each barrel counts as one attack. In Ultimate Combat under 'Firearm Descriptions'.


There are two seperate attack rolls. Whenever you attack with a double barreled weapon, you can fire a single barrel for a normal shot, or simultaneously fire both barrels, essentially making two attacks at the cost of -4 to hit and that both attacks must target the same creature (since both barrels are going off at the same time, they're pointed at the same target for each attack), in place of the normal attack. Think of it this way; firing a double shot is like a special form of two weapon fighting exclusive to double barrled firearms.

This is why I'm currently building my 11th level character as a gunslinger/ninja with a speed double barrel pistol, rapid shot, rapid reload, and using paper cartridges. For a -6 to hit on all attacks, I'm making 8 attacks in a full round action. Combine that with the hidden blade trick (Greater Invisibility per round instead of per minute), sniper goggles, and deadly aim (for an additonal -4), and damage adds up quickly. That -10 to hit doesn't mean much when you're going against their Touch AC and they're denied their dex (most enemies anyway).

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only "hidden blade" i can find has nothing to do with fireartms:

UC wrote:

Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on

Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This
ability replaces trapfinding.

So, what is the source this hidden blade trick?


Diego Rossi wrote:

The only "hidden blade" i can find has nothing to do with fireartms:

UC wrote:

Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on

Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This
ability replaces trapfinding.
So, what is the source this hidden blade trick?

Ninja Trick not Rogue trick.


so then why would one ever use a pepper box or even upgrade if possible to a revolver other than better touch ac range. Thats 8 attacks a round with no penalty if they are aimed right. thats more than a 2WP fighter gets.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

The only "hidden blade" i can find has nothing to do with fireartms:

UC wrote:

Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on

Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This
ability replaces trapfinding.
So, what is the source this hidden blade trick?
Ninja Trick not Rogue trick.

You mean this?

UC wrote:
Invisible Blade (Su): Whenever a ninja uses the vanishing trick ninja trick, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The ninja must have the vanishing trick ninja trick before selecting this ninja trick.

The name is a "bit" different.


Whoops...yeah, meant Invisible Blade.

And Talon...where in the heck are you getting the "no penalty" from? Firing both barrels at the same time is a -4 to hit on each shot. Sure, that's offset a bit if you're within the first range increment and so resolving against Touch AC, but there's still a penalty to hit.

And remember, not only is is less accurate, but using paper cartridges in order to get those iterative attacks, and just using a double barrel pistol in the first place, increases your misfire chance. Two bad rolls and your gun become useless until you can fix it (or unless you make a Ring of Mending).

Remember, getting that many attacks in a round is also incurring a fair penalty to attack. Those 8 attacks I mentioned all have a -6 to hit, Whereas a two weapon fighter of the same level would have the same number of attacks if he too were using speed weapons (albiet at a lower attack bonus for the last two and resolving against normal AC).

Not to mention there might be enemies whom you don't want to get that close to from time to time.


Necromancer wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Does anyone know if there is an offical ruling on how the double barreled weapons work as far a wheather its 2 attacks or just double damage?
Double-barrelled firearms can fired separately as independent actions or at once. If fired simultaneously, the must target the same creature or take a -4 penalty to each. Each barrel counts as one attack. In Ultimate Combat under 'Firearm Descriptions'.

It's not must target same creature "or" take a -4 penalty, it's must target same creature "and" take a -4 penalty.


I wonder if it would be possible to use the double barreled rules with a customized repeating crossbow...

What? It's no dumber than a lot of the double weapons out there. Really.


Talonhawke wrote:
so then why would one ever use a pepper box or even upgrade if possible to a revolver other than better touch ac range. Thats 8 attacks a round with no penalty if they are aimed right. thats more than a 2WP fighter gets.

Pepper boxes are for dabblers, not professionals. You take leadership and give your warriors with WP firearms and WF Pepperbox a pepperbox and they get to make six shots without stopping to reload.

you can also load alchemical cartridges into a pepperbox and only spin the barrel to the chamber with the cartridges when you need them.


Roaming Shadow wrote:
Think of it this way; firing a double shot is like a special form of two weapon fighting exclusive to double barrled firearms.

Woah. That seems like it's too good to be true. I've just made a Double Barrel Musket Master and on a full attack round I get to do about 180.26 DPR. That's more than double what my Longbow Fighter was achieving.

Can someone look over my build to ensure I haven't overlooked anything.

Gunslinger (Musket Master) 12:
Ability Scores
STR 7 (-4 points)
CON 13 (3 points)
DEX 17+2 (13 points)
INT 12 (2 points)
WIS 16 (10 points)
CHA 7 (-4 points)

20 points in total.

4th level = +1 Dexterity
8th level = +1 Dexterity
12th level = +1 Dexterity

Feats
Human) Point-Blank Shot
Level 1) Precise Shot
Gunslinger 1) Gunsmith
Gunslinger 1) Rapid Reload
Level 3) Dodge
Gunslinger 4) Mobility
Level 5) Rapid Shot
Level 7) Deft Shootist Deed
Gunslinger 8) Manyshot
Level 9) Extra Grit
Level 11) Toughness
Gunslinger 12) Improved Critical

Defences
AC: 26 = 10 (Base) + 1 (armour bonus) + 8 (dexterity modifier) + 2 (armour enhancement modifier) + 1 (shield bonus) + 2 (shield enhancement bonus) + 1 (Amulet of Natural Armour) + 1 (Ring of Protection
Fortitude: +12 = +8 (base) + 2 (con mod) + 2 (cloak)
Reflex: +18 = +8 (base) + 8 (dex mod) + 2 (cloak)
Will: +9 = +4 (base) +3 (wis mod) + 2 (cloak)

Items
* 33,500 Musket +4
* 4,000 Leather Armour +2
* 4,000 Buckler +2
* 2,000 Amulet of Natural Armour +1
* 2,000 Ring of Protection +1
* 16,000 Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4
* 4,000 Cloak of Resistance +2
* 2,500 Bag of Holding Type I
* 12,000 Boots of Speed
* 28,500 on Disposables and mundane gear

Total budget is 108,000 gp

Attacks
Target AC: 17

Double-Barrel Musket Attack: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 = 12 (BAB) + 8 (Dex Mod) + 4 (Enhancement Bonus) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) – 4 (Double-Barrel) - 2 (Rapid Shot) + 1 (Haste)
Double-Barrel Musket damage: 31/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5/16.5 = 6.5 (musket) + 8 (dex mod) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) + 1 (musket training)

NOTE: musket and dex damage are doubled for the first attack.


First off, you do realize that Manyshot applies only to shooting arrows from a bow right? It does absolutely nothing for you. Therefore, that part of your damage calculation is wrong.

Actually, you're getting a +2 to damage from musket training, so your damage should actually be a smidge higher per shot (after taking into account that Manyshot is not usable with firearms or crossbows).

Other than the glaring error of Manyshot, remember that the range increment of a double barrel musket is only 10ft, so unless you're close, those range penalties add up quickly and you're not shooting against Touch AC outside that initial 10ft. You don't have nearly the range your archer does by a long shot.

Besides that, the numbers look right to me.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thomas nelson wrote:
Pepper boxes are for dabblers

Rubbish, I've never used one nor ever had the inclination to do so! I don't really like firearms in fantasy games myself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:


Can someone look over my build to ensure I haven't overlooked anything.

Not that this is important, but your character is heavily encumbered before you add in that extra equipment.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So wait, I'm a little confused how this works. When firing two shots simultaneously from a double-barreled weapon, is one attack essentially "free" as in it's provided by the gun, or do both attacks count against the total number of attacks a character can make in a round?

For example:

A 10th level Gunslinger has a Base Attack Bonus of +10. For the sake of simplicity, I won't count in other bonuses to attack rolls or feats or whatever. Now, when firing both barrels of a double-barreled shotgun at the same enemy, does it look like this:

1st Shot: +6 (10 - 4 = 6)
2nd Shot: -1 (5 - 6 = -1)

Each shot does d8 damage, with the attack doing 2d8 extra damage if they hit.

Or does the attack look like this:

1st Shot: +6 (10 -4 = 6)
2nd Shot: -1 (5 - 6 = -1)

Each shot does 4d8 damage (both barrels firing simultaneously).

My players and I are a little confused by the wording of the double-barreled shotgun, so any help is appreciated!


Golden-Esque wrote:

So wait, I'm a little confused how this works. When firing two shots simultaneously from a double-barreled weapon, is one attack essentially "free" as in it's provided by the gun, or do both attacks count against the total number of attacks a character can make in a round?

For example:

A 10th level Gunslinger has a Base Attack Bonus of +10. For the sake of simplicity, I won't count in other bonuses to attack rolls or feats or whatever. Now, when firing both barrels of a double-barreled shotgun at the same enemy, does it look like this:

1st Shot: +6 (10 - 4 = 6)
2nd Shot: -1 (5 - 6 = -1)

Each shot does d8 damage, with the attack doing 2d8 extra damage if they hit.

Or does the attack look like this:

1st Shot: +6 (10 -4 = 6)
2nd Shot: -1 (5 - 6 = -1)

Each shot does 4d8 damage (both barrels firing simultaneously).

My players and I are a little confused by the wording of the double-barreled shotgun, so any help is appreciated!

It isn't extra damage it's an extra attack roll essentially you do.

1st attack +10 then using double barrels you split this to
2x 1st attack (10-4)+6
2x 2nd attack (10-5-4)+1


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gnomersy wrote:

It isn't extra damage it's an extra attack roll essentially you do.

1st attack +10 then using double barrels you split this to
2x 1st attack (10-4)+6
2x 2nd attack (10-5-4)+1

So wait, you're saying with a Double-Barreled Shotgun, you can essentially take a -4 penalty to double the number of attacks you can make it a round, with each attack doing double damage (2d8 instead of 1d8)? In your example, you have it looking like this:

+6/+6/+1/+1

With the '+6' being what would normally be your first attack and the '+1' being what would normally be your second attack. That looks incredibly broken, or am I interpreting this wrong?

Silver Crusade

You get two attacks in one each time you make an attack roll by sucking a -4 penalty to attack and crippling range, that can also fairly easily make your weapon explode if you roll badly twice in a row. Oh, and you're doing it at close range.

Is it cool ? Yes. But not nearly as close as "overpowered".
Cool fact : it works with Dead Shot too. At level 12, you're aiming for a minimum +8/+8/+3/+3/-2/-2 on a Dead Shot, unless you get +8/+3/-2 +8/+3/-2, which is fairly different since it also means two bullets, two shots, two adjacent dead shots, twice more base bonus to damage.

We ruled the second one in our group since the raw wasn't clear enough about it. Since it's a single dead shot, we allowed a critical to apply to the full DS. So it's basically a potential 24d6 +10x4 +10x4, +4d6 +6d10 thanks to the Shocking Burst property on a critical hit... still less than the damage dealt by the archer if he crits once and hits with all attacks, or the damage dealt by the THF if he crits once and hits twice more...


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Maxximilius wrote:

You get two attacks in one each time you make an attack roll by sucking a -4 penalty to attack and crippling range, that can also fairly easily make your weapon explode if you roll badly twice in a row. Oh, and you're doing it at close range.

Is it cool ? Yes. But not nearly as close as "overpowered".
Cool fact : it works with Dead Shot too. At level 12, you're aiming for a minimum +8/+8/+3/+3/-2/-2 on a Dead Shot, unless you get +8/+3/-2 +8/+3/-2, which is fairly different since it also means two bullets, two shots, two adjacent dead shots, twice more base bonus to damage.

We ruled the second one in our group since the raw wasn't clear enough about it. Since it's a single dead shot, we allowed a critical to apply to the full DS. So it's basically a potential 24d6 +10x4 +10x4, +4d6 +6d10 thanks to the Shocking Burst property on a critical hit... still less than the damage dealt by the archer if he crits once and hits with all attacks, or the damage dealt by the THF if he crits once and hits twice more...

I would agree with you if not for the simple fact that the crazy rotation you just named goes against Touch AC. It's sort of like saying that a Rogue's sneak attack isn't unreliable because the target has to be flanking or flat-footed. In the case of the Rogue, good group tactics means that you're almost always going to be set up in a flanking position, and the very obvious fact that monsters with high Touch ACs are incredibly uncommon means that the Gunslinger is seldom (if ever) going to miss with this rotation.

You say that the Archer can beat the Gunslinger's damage output *IF* he hits, but since an archer goes against regular AC the word 'if' actually means something in that context. It means next to nothing for the Gunslinger, because even though he can take more penalties on more occasions, monsters are literally getting bigger, which means a lot of the enemies you're fighting have low Touch ACs to begin with. Coupled with a Fighter's Base Attack Bonus (compared to a Wizard's, which Touch AC was really designed for) it's fairly easy to get to a point where you can figure out how much you need to roll to never miss and then just dump extra +Hit on things that buff damage. The problem is that a Double Barreled Shotgun is clearly not a fair and balanced way to dump that +Hit.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quote:
This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, and takes a –4 penalty on both attacks. A double shot that fires bullets targets only a single creature and increases the damage of each barrel to 2d6 points (Small) or 2d8 points (Medium) for a total of 4d6 or 4d8 points.

The text here is very confusing because the term "double shot" is not defined. Some sentences (such as "both together as one attack") infer that you need to make a single attack roll, and that one attack roll takes a -4 penalty; a success causing that one attack roll to deal 4d8 points of damage. However, other sentences, such as "and takes a -4 penalty on both attacks" infers that you take the total number of attacks you could normally make (so, in the case of an 11th level Gunslinger without any buffs or feats, +11/+6/+1), double the number of attacks (11/11/6/6/1/1) and then place a -4 penalty on each of those attacks (+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3), with each successful attack roll dealing twice the barrel's normal damage (2d6 for Small, 2d8 for Medium).

So, here are some questions:

#1 When using a double shot, does bonus damage, such as from feats (Point-Blank Shot/Weapon Specialization/Focused Aim) and the gun's enhnancement bonus apply once per "set" in the double shot, or once per barrel?

#2 Which of the above (if any) examples is correct? Two attack rolls per double shot or one attack roll per double shot?

Silver Crusade

Contrary to your feelings and armchair wonderings about the mechanics, I've actually playtested them through a DMPC and seen them used in the game. What you are saying is nothing new, nothing already disproved a long time ago.
And guess what ? Despite the "OMG touch AC attacks BROKEN !", "d12 19-20x4 damage BROKEN !", "High AC high Init BROKEN !" commentaries from our fellow players that reminded me of the exact threads that showed up on the messageboards when the class was made public, now the general consensus toward the gunslinger is "actually, you kind of suck...". And this guy is one of the most optimized options you can milk out of a musketeer, to the point even the archer and THF who deal crazy-high damage at first were vocally wondering why the DM accepted a character "so overpowered" in the game. Their faces when they saw that I was right by arguing that what they said was wrong, and has been disproved months ago was fun to contemplate.

They even asked for the misfire possibility to come back in the game despite the musketeer high-level immunity to them, because it would "balance the character". I pleasure myself in saying when the gunslinger would normally misfire in the game ; while the gunslinger itself is far behind the archer and THF in damage and efficiency each round. Now they shamefully agreed to no remove the poor child's candy a it would only be overkill against the character's efficiency.

The whole "archer could NOT hit !!!11!1" argument is moot. This guy doesn't provoke when he attacks, can do ranged combat maneuvers, his weapon doesn't break during 12 levels, and he currently deals a firm +75 damage per round just by hitting on half his attacks without critical hits, without considering arrow damage dice and without active buffs outside of magic items. And that's against high AC targets. Against low Touch AC enemies, the gunslinger sometimes hits more, weee !... except he deals average damage in comparison.
I don't mind the gunslinger being better against big baddies when he suffers so much against everything else and the archer is still king of DPR in any situation, which is exactly the case.

Silver Crusade

Oh, and btw...

Quote:

#1 When using a double shot, does bonus damage, such as from feats (Point-Blank Shot/Weapon Specialization/Focused Aim) and the gun's enhnancement bonus apply once per "set" in the double shot, or once per barrel?

#2 Which of the above (if any) examples is correct? Two attack rolls per double shot or one attack roll per double shot?

1 => Every bonus to damage counts twice as if you made two attacks instead of one, DR also counts once per bullet.

2 => One attack roll per double shot with -4 to hit, treat as if the creature was hit twice in a row.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Maxximilius wrote:
Contrary to your feelings and armchair wonderings about the mechanics, I've actually playtested them through a DMPC and seen them used in the game. What you are saying is nothing new, nothing already disproved a long time ago.

The only reason I posted here is because my Gunslinger PC OHKOed a CR 12 monster at 10th level last night. After rereading the rules, I've realized that there are some mechanics that we've been doing wrong (we've been playing his Far-Sight Scope wrong, for example, and for some reason he thought his range increment was 30 feet instead of 20). Believe it or not, I'm not here to argue whether or not an option is overpowered. I'm here because I want help understanding if I'm interpreting the rules correctly.

Quote:
And guess what ? Despite the "OMG touch AC attacks BROKEN !", "d12 19-20x4 damage BROKEN !", "High AC high Init BROKEN !" commentaries from our fellow players that reminded me of the exact threads that showed up on the messageboards when the class was made public, now the general consensus toward the gunslinger is "actually, you kind of suck...". And this guy is one of the most optimized options you can milk out of a musketeer, to the point even the archer and THF who deal crazy-high damage at first were vocally wondering why the DM accepted a character "so overpowered" in the game. Their faces when they saw that I was right by arguing that what they said was wrong, and has been disproved months ago was fun to contemplate.

I'm sorry that you think I'm wrong; to be honest, I'd like to be wrong simply because as you so professionally put it, I don't want to have to take candy from anyone. However, I'm on the rules forum. Telling me I'm wrong isn't enough. I need numbers, man, numbers! If you have a Gunslinger PC and an Archer PC that play with you, then give me an idea of what their numbers look like on some different encounters. It may be some extra work for you, but it's kind of what you need to do in order to make your opinions more well-known.

Quote:

1 => Every bonus to damage counts twice as if you made two attacks instead of one, DR also counts once per bullet.

2 => One attack roll per double shot with -4 to hit, treat as if the creature was hit twice in a row.

So let's say I'm a 12th level Gunslinger with a DB Shotgun. We'll say that I have Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and Deadly Aim. My attack bonus looks like this:

+12/+7/+2

I'll be modest and say that I have a Dexterity of 20, though I could very easily have more by this level. My Dexterity improves my attack bonus to:

+17/+12/+7

We'll say I'm within 20 feet for simplicity's sake, which also grants +1 from Point-Blank Shot. For kicks, I'll assume I have a +2 gun (again, very modest). This brings us to:

+20/+15/+10

Now, baseline my gun does 1d8 points of damage and critically hits on a 20 for x2 damage. Because I'm a Gunslinger, I probably have Gun Training with my Shotgun, so I get +5 to damage. This brings my base total per shot to 1d8+8.

Now, let's say I'm making a full attack. Because I can load my gun as a free action thanks to my Rapid Reload feat, I can shot as many times as I have a base attack bonus. With Rapid Shot, my attacks per round are as follows:

+18/+18/+13/+8

Now, I decide I'm using my gun's double shot attack. According to you, I take a -4 penalty to all my attacks, bringing me to the following:

+14/+14/+9/+4

Now, each of these attacks fires two bullets, and each bullet has its damage increased to 2d8, meaning each attack hits for 4d8. You're also saying that each attack effectively has any damage bonuses that would apply to it doubled as well, so that increases the damage to 4d8+16 per shot. The average damage roll for one shot here is 34 damage per shot, times 4 shots is 136 damage. This is without having ANY feats except for Point-Blank Shot and because touch ACs very rarely go above 13, only one of these three attacks has any real chance of missing (roughly a 55% chance compared to the other three only missing 5% of the time).

Let's say that I have the Deadly Aim feat. At 12th level, I could take a -3 penalty to my attack rolls to gain a +6 bonus on damage rolls. This +6 is doubled when I double shot as well, which makes my attacks look like this:

+11/+11/+6/+1

Damage: 4d8+28
Average Damage per Shot: 46
Average Damage per Round: 184

As before, using 13 as a very fair average Touch AC for many monsters, the third shot has a 25% chance to hit (two-in-three of hitting is still VERY good) while the final shot is down to a 40% hit chance. These are still very good odds.

So looking over this Math, is there anything I calculated wrong? This still looks to be a little too good to me. The gunslinger does not have a real miss chance here; their damage seems to be extremely solid against an average Touch AC creature; against the bigger ones, it would be slaughter.

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