Cool, so we just need Raider or cartmanbeck or Purple to say "yes" and that one'll be complete as well.
Still got two to polish, and the Absolute Arcanist to post for voting. Expect more from me as the day progresses.
Something about the witchfinder doesn't sit right; my instincts're telling me we're missing something. I'm gonna run a few numbers and try to munchkin the sucker, see if it comes out into the open before I make a vote on it. I'll letcha know this evening.
Just a note:
In this thread, which I opened to discuss a monoclass archetype I created, DumberOx actually showed a very believable and viable Monk/Cleric of his creation. I think we could invite him here to complete his idea... though it could almost be done as it is, in my opinion.
@Raiderrpg: Esoteric Chemist now edited/finalised on wiki: I replaced original with the version Flak posted, and formatted progression table. I used full wizard spell progression, I'm guessing that's right?
Also, renamed Seersworn Mystic (I know, again!) to... Fellseer. Finally nailed the name... Can you please rename the page? I've changed all the text, just need the pagename changed and I don't have authorisation!?!?!?
And (of course) hoooooow's the Witchfinder "munchkinization" going? Ready to vote?
@Bardess: I looked at DumberOx's Monk archetype. It appears to be a monk archetype that swaps out some abilities for cleric abilities, and others for bard abilities. This makes it somewhat tricky to fit into a two-class MCA workshop. A Monk/Cleric MCA with bard abilities... Sounds like when I tried to give the Temple Dancer(Bard/Cleric)some Fighter combat feats.... Having said that, we don't have a Monk/Cleric, so I'm not against DumberOx bringing his archetype in.
@Flak:
Expect more from me as the day progresses
I did. You didn't return... Sadface. ;^p
Yeah...
Ugh...
And you know what starts today?
...
National Novel Writing Month.
>_>
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Yeah...
Ugh...
And you know what starts today?...
National Novel Writing Month.
>_>
The Witchfinder looks reasonable to me. I've never been a huge fan of the Inquisitor, so it's one of the few classes I've not played, so my opinion might not be as useful as someone who has.
I'll try to mess with the Divine Blade today, see what I can come up with. I finally have some free time again, WOO!!
On another note, I've been recruited into writing a monthly column for www.the-ush.com about Pathfinder, so if anyone's interested in reading them, I'll gladly share the links with you. I've written four of them at this point, and the fifth is being edited. The first four were all about how to make a party of nothing but Rogues viable as an adventuring party. :-P
@cartmanbeck: Yay! You're back. It's been too long!
I'd love to see what you've written, especially as I don't see all what all the fuss over rogues on these boards. I think they're killer! ;) I'd be interested to see whether the four rogues had different archetypes...
Link me up for sure.
@Raiderrpg: anything come out of witchfinder test? Even though we now have 4 assenting votes for Witchfinder v4.1 I'd like to hear your thoughts before I upload it to the wiki... I agree with cartmanbeck that it looks reasonable. You and Flak have done such a good job with it after all. And i think that this MCA has shown that although it might take a while sometimes, we collectively have what it takes to refine, reign in overzealous creativity-over-mechanics and polish. Personally this feels like one of the "best on the thread" to me because, in the end, no matter how messy it may have been, or obstinate it's originator was, it's now really quite neat and simple, and full of flavour (bias completely mine!). Thanks again for your patience and aid with an MCA that really wasn't your cup of tea!
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
@cartmanbeck: Yay! You're back. It's been too long!
I'd love to see what you've written, especially as I don't see all what all the fuss over rogues on these boards. I think they're killer! ;) I'd be interested to see whether the four rogues had different archetypes...
Link me up for sure.@Raiderrpg: anything come out of witchfinder test? Even though we now have 4 assenting votes for Witchfinder v4.1 I'd like to hear your thoughts before I upload it to the wiki... I agree with cartmanbeck that it looks reasonable. You and Flak have done such a good job with it after all. And i think that this MCA has shown that although it might take a while sometimes, we collectively have what it takes to refine, reign in overzealous creativity-over-mechanics and polish. Personally this feels like one of the "best on the thread" to me because, in the end, no matter how messy it may have been, or obstinate it's originator was, it's now really quite neat and simple, and full of flavour (bias completely mine!). Thanks again for your patience and aid with an MCA that really wasn't your cup of tea!
Here's the Divine Blade. I feel like it might be a little overpowered, but I'm not sure exactly how to fix that. I feel like the domain spells feature will be useful but not overpowered, since you have to give up a feat to get a single spell a few times a day. I'm worried that the Channeled weapon training might be too much, though. It has some degree of balance since you need to use up your channel energy uses to make it happen, but it might still be too powerful. Also, if you used the Holy Vindicator prestige class with this base class, you'd have an absolute BEAST!
Divine Blade
The Divine Blade is a martial champion for his chosen deity, filling an officer’s role in holy wars, assassinating key leaders of opposition churches, or guarding high-ranking church officials during dangerous envoy trips. His martial ability is equally matched by his devotion to the faith, and the spells he casts can aid him during battle or even turn the tide of an entire war.
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Cleric
Hit Dice: d8
Saves: Good Fortitude and Will, poor Reflex
Bonus Skills and Ranks: A divine blade selects three cleric skills as class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. He gains skill ranks at each level equal to 2+ Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Divine Blade is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, his deity’s favored weapon, and all armor and shields, including tower shields.
Divine Blade
1st Domain, channel energy 1d6
2nd Bonus feat
3rd Channeled armor training (+1, 5 feet)
4th Bonus feat
5th Channeled weapon training +1, channel energy 2d6
6th Bonus feat
7th Channeled armor training (+2, 5 feet)
8th Bonus feat
9th Channeled weapon training +2, channel energy 3d6
10th Bonus feat
11th Channeled armor training (+3, 10 feet)
12th Bonus feat
13th Channeled weapon training +3, channel energy 4d6
14th Bonus feat
15th Channeled armor training (+4, 10 feet)
16th Bonus feat
17th Channeled weapon training +4, channel energy 5d6
18th Bonus feat
19th Channeled armor training (+5, 15 feet)
20th Bonus feat, channel energy 6d6, Divine surge
Domain: A Divine Blade chooses a single domain from those of his chosen deity. He gains the domain powers associated with that domain as a cleric of his Divine Blade level. At any level where he can normally choose a Bonus Feat, he can instead choose a domain spell from his chosen domain. He may choose any domain spell that a cleric of his level would have access to. Spells chosen in this way can be cast once per day, plus one additional time per day for every +2 Wisdom bonus the Divine Blade has (minimum once per day). His caster level for the spell is equal to his Divine Blade level. (For example, a 10th-level Cleric with the air domain has access to all of the air domain bonus spells of 5th-level or lower. A Divine Blade at level 10 with a +2 Wisdom bonus could choose any of those bonus spells as his bonus feat and cast it up to two times per day.)
In addition, at any level where a fighter could normally retrain one of his bonus feats (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th) he may choose to retrain one of his domain spells instead, choosing any other domain spell that he has access to. This ability replaces the fighter's first-level bonus feat.
Channel energy: This functions exactly as the cleric ability of the same name, and progresses as shown in the table. This ability replaces Bravery.
Bonus feat: At every even level, a Divine Blade can choose a fighter bonus feat, any feat with a channel energy prerequisite, or a domain spell (as described above).
Channeled armor training: A Divine Blade can use his channel energy ability to enhance his armor with divine (or profane) energy. As a standard action, the Divine Blade can spend one daily use of channel energy to give himself a sacred bonus to AC equal to the listed bonus. This bonus stacks with any magic enhancement bonus that the armor already has. In addition, his armor becomes lighter and more flexible, lowering its armor check penalty by the same amount and allowing him to move faster (as indicated) in medium or heavy armor, up to his base speed. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to the Divine Blade’s level. This ability replaces armor training.
Channeled weapon training: A Divine Blade can use his channel energy ability to strike terrible blows against his enemies. As a standard action, the Divine Blade can spend one daily use of channel energy to give his weapon a sacred bonus to attack and damage of the amount listed. This bonus stacks with any magic enhancement bonus that the weapon already has. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to the Diving Blade’s level.
In addition, when activating this ability a Divine Blade may spend an additional use of channel energy to align his weapon for the purposes of passing damage reduction. He may not choose an alignment in opposition to his own (for example, a chaotic good Divine Blade may choose to make his weapon either chaotic or good using this ability. A neutral Divine Blade may choose chaotic or lawful, but is restricted to either good or evil based on his choice to channel positive or negative energy.)
Finally, as a swift action when using this ability, the Divine Blade may spend an additional use of channel energy to gain a bonus to rolls to confirm critical hits equal to the listed amount for a number of rouds equal to his Charisma modifier. This stacks with the sacred bonus to attack given by channeled weapon training. This ability replaces weapon training.
Divine Surge: At 20th level, a Divine Blade gains extra divine power by striking down his enemies. Once per day, when the Divine Blade reduces an enemy to 0 HP or fewer, he may take a swift action to call upon his deity’s favor. For one minute per Divine Blade level, he gains a pool of 2d6 channel points. He can use one of these channel points to channel energy as normal, but without using up his daily uses of channel energy. He can also use the pool to cast any domain spells he has access too, using one channel point per spell level. Any unused channel points from this pool are lost when the ability ends. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
My articles are at these links. you might need to sign up for the forum to see the pictures:
Natural Twenties #1
Natural Twenties #2
Natural Twenties #3
Natural Twenties #4
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
** spoiler omitted **...
And here is the Silent Warrior. This one I think is very well-balanced, and would be fun to play (silencing spellcasters in mid-battle would be sweet!)
Silent Warrior
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Rogue
Hit Dice: d10
Saves: Good Fort and Ref, bad Will
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Stealth is a class skill for a Silent Warrior. He also chooses two skills from the Rogue class skill list in addition to the normal Fighter class skills. He gains skill ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int.
Weapon and armor proficiencies: A Silent Warrior is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor and shields except for tower shields.
Silent Warrior
1st Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd Bonus Feat, Silent Combat
3rd Stealth Training +1
4th Bonus Feat
5th Sneak Attack +2d6
6th Bonus Feat
7th Stealth Training +2
8th Bonus Feat
9th Sneak Attack +3d6
10th Bonus Feat
11th Stealth Training +3
12th Bonus Feat
13th Sneak Attack +3d6
14th Bonus Feat
15th Stealth Training +4
16th Bonus Feat
17th Sneak Attack +4d6
18th Bonus Feat
19th Stealth Training +5
20th Sneak Attack +5d6, Stealth Mastery
Sneak Attack: This functions exactly as the Rogue abilty of the same name, and progresses as shown in the table. This replaces the fighter’s first-level bonus feat and weapon training.
Silent Combat: At 2nd level, the Silent Warrior becomes adept at silencing his foes and reducing the sounds of battle. He may choose to forego one attack, either as part of a full attack or as a standard action, to deal nonlethal damage to his opponent’s mouth or voicebox and silence him. The attack is at a -2 penalty. His opponent cannot make vocalizations for 1d4 rounds. At 7th level this increases to 2d4 rounds. This ability has no effect on a creature without discernable anatomy or that does not speak with a mouth.
In addition, while his opponent is silenced the Silent Warrior gains a +4 circumstance bonus to his attack rolls against that opponent, and creatures unaware of combat take a -4 penalty to Perception checks to notice that combat is taking place. This ability replaces bravery.
Bonus Feats: In addition to fighter bonus feats, a Silent Warrior may choose any Rogue Talent that he qualifies for, treating his Silent Warrior level as his rogue level for any requirements.
Stealth Training: At 3rd level a Silent Warrior learns to move quickly and quietly even in the heaviest of armors. His speed is not reduced in medium armor, and heavy armor only reduces his speed as if it were medium armor. At 10th level, his speed is not reduced in heavy armor.
In addition, the Silent Warrior's armor check penalty in any armor is reduced by one. He also learns to camouflage his armor, gaining an additional +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks when wearing armor. Finally, when dealing sneak attack damage because of the use of stealth (i.e. not from flanking) he gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack and damage. This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit. All of these bonuses increase by an additional 1 at 5th level and every four levels after that, to a maxiumum of +5 at 19th level. This replaces armor training.
Silent Warrior- 2d4 rounds is a LOT. That's potentially an entire combat you've shut them down for, and with no saving throw. Other than that, looks good.
Divine Blade- I like!
Gonna take a deeper look at these two later.
-----
Sorry I've been quiet lately, busy with stuffs. ^^;
@The Shining Fool: We're compiling them on a wiki for now. Raiderrpg has the link.
Re: Silent Warrior: I like, simple & good. Agreed with Raider that the silent combat needs a save (otherwise it just slaughters spellcasters, no?).
Re: Divine Blade: Haven't had a chance to read in its entirety, but why d8?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
@The Shining Fool: We're compiling them on a wiki for now. Raiderrpg has the link.
Re: Silent Warrior: I like, simple & good. Agreed with Raider that the silent combat needs a save (otherwise it just slaughters spellcasters, no?).
Re: Divine Blade: Haven't had a chance to read in its entirety, but why d8?
RE: Re: Silent Warrior: Let's change it to 1d6+1 then? Just so you have a minimum of 2 rounds.
RE: Re: Divine Blade: Should be d10 dice, I'll fix that.
@The Shining Fool: here's the link: MCA wiki
@Flak: re: Core edits. Do we need to vote on these or will you give assenting nods based on general view? Also, Witchfinder has 4 votes. ;)
So from my understanding our process works like this:
*Workshop
*4 votes from designated members= in. Flak gives go ahead.
*OSW uploads to wiki
*Raiderrpg links pages on wiki
@Raiderrpg: would like to upload witchfinder. Final thoughts? Remember we can edit it on the wiki... Unless you feel something is really broken.
Witchfinder passes, I think, barring any actual negative data from Raider.
As for 'cote edits' they follow the same process. I need to see a revision of the silent warrior's ability before I can give it the go ahead and I haven't read the divine blade in close detail yet. But that's just on my end. Continue on guys!! We're doing good.
They both seem interesting at first sight, but I'll need to think about it thoroughly.
Now it's my turn:
Some divine agents are followers of exoteric sects venerating gods of magic, and use both arcane comprehension and mystic gifts, along with their frightening prowess in battle, to further their god’s ends and the cause of good, be it in the light of law or in the dark of chaotic secret wars. Enforcer and spy, public defender and dirty worker, the hand of the god is a strange hybrid: faithful yet independent, he thinks with his own head, heals and channels divine energy through Intelligence, goes wherever he’s needed to be and does what needs to be done and no other could do.
Primary Class: Magus
Secondary Class: Paladin
Skills: +3 from Paladin class
BAB: ¾
Saves: GPG
Spells: as magus but see Merciful Magic
Alignment: Any Good
1)Aura of Good, Theurgic Pool, Cantrips, Spell Combat
2)Spellstrike
3)Merciful Arcana
4)Channel Positive Energy
5)Aura of Courage
6)Merciful Arcana
7)Medium Armor
8)Improved Spell Combat
9)Merciful Arcana
10)Aura of Resolve
11)--
12)Merciful Arcana
13)Heavy Armor
14)Greater Spell Combat
15)Merciful Arcana
16)Aura of Dispelling
17)--
18)Merciful Arcana
19)Merciful Magic
20)Templar Champion
New Arcana: Champion Blending, Faithful Blending, Greater Mercy, Hunter Blending, Major Mercy, Merciful Eye, Minor Mercy, Ultimate Mercy
Aura of Good: as paladin.
Theurgic Pool: At 1st level, the hand of the god gains a reservoir of energy springing both from his mystic studies and from his bond with the divine, that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This theurgic pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once per day when the magus prepares his spells.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, dancing, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, frost, holy, icy burst, speed.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus, and apply to only one end of a double weapon.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
A hand of the god can also choose to expend 1 point from his theurgic pool to grant himself a smite evil effect for 1 minute. This is identical to a paladin’s smite evil ability.
Cantrips: As magus.
Spell Combat: As magus.
Spellstrike: As magus.
Merciful Arcana: As magus arcana, plus the hand of the god has access to the following new arcana.
Champion Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the paladin list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its paladin spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast. A hand of the god can select this magus arcana more than once.
Faithful Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the cleric spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell one level higher than its ranger spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast. A hand of the god can select this magus arcana more than once.
Greater Mercy (Su): A magus must be of 12th level at least and have the merciful eye, minor mercy and major mercy arcana to choose this one. When the hand of the god uses merciful eye, he can spend 4 points more from his theurgic pool to add to the healing the effect of one mercy available to a 9th-level paladin. The hand of the god can select this arcana more than once; every time it applies to a different mercy.
Hunter Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the ranger spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell one level higher than its ranger spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast. A hand of the god can select this magus arcana more than once.
Major Mercy (Su): A magus must be of 9th level at least and have the merciful eye and minor mercy arcana to choose this one. When the hand of the god uses merciful eye, he can spend 2 points more from his theurgic pool to add to the healing the effect of one mercy available to a 6th-level paladin. The hand of the god can select this arcana more than once; every time it applies to a different mercy.
Merciful Eye (Su): The hand of the god can spend 1 point of his theurgic pool to relieve pain and cure the wounds of his allies. The magus’ eyes become pure white-gold and he can look at a creature within 30 feet of him to heal 1d6 hit points of damage + 1d6 for every 4 magus levels he possesses beyond 3rd. He can't harm undead with this ability.
Minor Mercy (Su): A magus must be of 6th level at least and have the merciful eye arcana to choose this one. When the hand of the god uses merciful eye, he can spend 1 point more from his theurgic pool to add to the healing the effect of one mercy available to a 3rd-level paladin. The hand of the god can select this arcana more than once; every time it applies to a different mercy.
Ultimate Mercy (Su): A magus must be of 15th level at least and have the merciful eye, minor mercy, major mercy and greater mercy arcana to choose this one. When the hand of the god uses merciful eye, he can spend 6 points more from his theurgic pool to add to the healing the effect of one mercy available to a 12th-level paladin. The hand of the god can select this arcana more than once; every time it applies to a different mercy.
Channel Positive Energy: At 4th level, the hand of the god can expend 2 points of his theurgic pool to channel positive energy like a paladin of the same level.
Aura of Courage: As paladin.
Medium Armor: As magus.
Improved Spell Combat: As magus.
Aura of Resolve: As paladin.
Heavy Armor: As magus.
Greater Spell Combat: As magus.
Aura of Dispelling: At 16th level, At 16th level, whenever an enemy within 10 feet of the hand of the god successfully casts a spell or uses a magic item offensively, the magus can expend 2 points of his theurgic pool to cast a dispel magic effect against that enemy as an immediate action. If successful, the spell is negated. The hand of the god has not to cast a real spell in order to counter the enemy’s spell attack.
Merciful Magic: At 19th level, the hand of the god gains access to an expanded spell list. He learns and places 8 spells from the paladin’s spell list into his spellbook as magus spells of their paladin level. He gains two of each of the following paladin spells not on the magus spell list:
1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level.
He can ignore the somatic component of these spells.
Templar Champion: At 20th level, the hand of the god becomes a true receptacle of divine wrath and arcane power. Whenever he uses his spell combat ability, he does not need to make a concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Whenever the magus uses spell combat and his spell targets the same creature as his melee attacks, he can choose to either increase the DC to resist the spell by +1, grant himself a +1 circumstance bonus on any checks made to overcome spell resistance, or grant himself a +1 circumstance bonus on all attack rolls made against the target during his turn. These bonuses double against evil opponents, and reach +4 if he uses his theurgic pool to smite evil. In addition, whenever he channels positive energy or uses the merciful eye arcana to heal a creature, he heals the maximum possible amount.
@Flak:
As for 'core edits' they follow the same process
Ok. Will wait to vote on Silent Warrior and Divine Blade.
@cartmanbeck: nice work on the revised MCAs. Way to bust em out...
Divine Blade: Great. Really liked the channeled armor and divine surge.
Silent Warrior: Again, I like. Not so sure about the flavour description of Silent Combat for Silent Warrior. I think silencing a caster is great mechanically, but there are so many other sounds of battle (weapons clash, heavy footfalls, armor/belts/straps/scabbards jangling) that it doesn't seem to work as a flavour description. And why does it give +4 competency bonus? It works for me if it just freaks the victim out and gives a +4 morale bonus, though the competence thing works I guess if the silent warrior takes advantage of said maneuver and resultant panic... Just a thought.
P.S. Read a few of your 4 Rogues (tank, archer, caster so far...). Nice work, very thorough and well-written.(You're right, I'd have to sign in for the pictures...)You should link it up on a thread of it's own here on Paizo. Then I can comment/critique further.... ;p
@raiderrpg: Witchfinder now a happy little wiki page-orphan... And Seersworn Mystic awaits Fellseer rename.
What do you think about putting a condensed version of our guidelines on the home page, so folk know what we mean by Primary and Secondary classes etc? Something along the lines of "Two classes bad, one class good. MCA = one good two-class class."
@Bardess: Nice work there on the Hand of the God - I like! Don't have UM, so am completely unfamiliar with Magus.
I liked Champion Blending but not sure about Faithful- or Hunter-blending. Unless blending is a magus gig.
Mercies seemed like a nice synergistic twist between the two classes powers.
Thanx. In the weapon properties section, I should have written "defending" instead of "axiomatic".^^
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
@Flak:As for 'core edits' they follow the same processOk. Will wait to vote on Silent Warrior and Divine Blade.
@cartmanbeck: nice work on the revised MCAs. Way to bust em out...
Divine Blade: Great. Really liked the channeled armor and divine surge.
Silent Warrior: Again, I like. Not so sure about the flavour description of Silent Combat for Silent Warrior. I think silencing a caster is great mechanically, but there are so many other sounds of battle (weapons clash, heavy footfalls, armor/belts/straps/scabbards jangling) that it doesn't seem to work as a flavour description. And why does it give +4 competency bonus? It works for me if it just freaks the victim out and gives a +4 morale bonus, though the competence thing works I guess if the silent warrior takes advantage of said maneuver and resultant panic... Just a thought.P.S. Read a few of your 4 Rogues (tank, archer, caster so far...). Nice work, very thorough and well-written.(You're right, I'd have to sign in for the pictures...)You should link it up on a thread of it's own here on Paizo. Then I can comment/critique further.... ;p
@raiderrpg: Witchfinder now a happy little wiki page-orphan... And Seersworn Mystic awaits Fellseer rename.
What do you think about putting a condensed version of our guidelines on the home page, so folk know what we mean by Primary and Secondary classes etc? Something along the lines of "Two classes bad, one class good. MCA = one good two-class class."@Bardess: Nice work there on the Hand of the God - I like! Don't have UM, so am completely unfamiliar with Magus.
I liked Champion Blending but not sure about Faithful- or Hunter-blending. Unless blending is a magus gig.
Mercies seemed like a nice synergistic twist between the two classes powers.
RE: Silent Warrior: The bonus type is totally flexible, morale or competence or whatever is fine. I wanted to add into the description that the Silent Warrior wraps all his jangly things with rags, even his weapons to keep them from clanging against others' weapons, but I couldn't figure out how to make it sound... not stupid. lol. Can you come up with something to that effect that sounds reasonable?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
@Flak:RE: Silent Warrior: The bonus type is totally flexible, morale or competence or whatever is fine. I wanted to add into the description that the Silent Warrior wraps...As for 'core edits' they follow the same processOk. Will wait to vote on Silent Warrior and Divine Blade.
@cartmanbeck: nice work on the revised MCAs. Way to bust em out...
Divine Blade: Great. Really liked the channeled armor and divine surge.
Silent Warrior: Again, I like. Not so sure about the flavour description of Silent Combat for Silent Warrior. I think silencing a caster is great mechanically, but there are so many other sounds of battle (weapons clash, heavy footfalls, armor/belts/straps/scabbards jangling) that it doesn't seem to work as a flavour description. And why does it give +4 competency bonus? It works for me if it just freaks the victim out and gives a +4 morale bonus, though the competence thing works I guess if the silent warrior takes advantage of said maneuver and resultant panic... Just a thought.P.S. Read a few of your 4 Rogues (tank, archer, caster so far...). Nice work, very thorough and well-written.(You're right, I'd have to sign in for the pictures...)You should link it up on a thread of it's own here on Paizo. Then I can comment/critique further.... ;p
@raiderrpg: Witchfinder now a happy little wiki page-orphan... And Seersworn Mystic awaits Fellseer rename.
What do you think about putting a condensed version of our guidelines on the home page, so folk know what we mean by Primary and Secondary classes etc? Something along the lines of "Two classes bad, one class good. MCA = one good two-class class."@Bardess: Nice work there on the Hand of the God - I like! Don't have UM, so am completely unfamiliar with Magus.
I liked Champion Blending but not sure about Faithful- or Hunter-blending. Unless blending is a magus gig.
Mercies seemed like a nice synergistic twist between the two classes powers.
Ooh, fun addition to the Silent Combat ability:
Silent Combat: At 2nd level, the Silent Warrior becomes adept at silencing his foes and reducing the sounds of battle. He may choose to forego one attack, either as part of a full attack or as a standard action, to silence his opponent. The attack is at a -2 penalty, and if the attack hits, the opponent is silenced for 1d4 rounds. The silence functions as the spell Forced Quiet (Ultimate Magic) except that the subject cannot make any vocalizations, so spells with verbal components cannot be cast. At 7th level this increases to 1d6 + 1 rounds.In addition, while his opponent is silenced the Silent Warrior gains a +4 circumstance bonus to his attack rolls against that opponent, and creatures unaware of combat take a -4 penalty to Perception checks to notice that combat is taking place. This ability replaces bravery.
What this means is that you're silencing your opponent, giving him a few small bonuses but also possibly killing his spellcasting, and keeping his friends in the next room from knowing that you're battling him.
@cartmanbeck: re Silent Blade. Made a small flavor addition here in bold
regarding sound dampening:
Stealth Training: At 3rd level a Silent Warrior learns to move quickly and quietly even in the heaviest of armors. His speed is not reduced in medium armor, and heavy armor only reduces his speed as if it were medium armor. At 10th level, his speed is not reduced in heavy armor.
In addition, the Silent Warrior's armor check penalty in any armor is reduced by one. He also learns to camouflage and muffle the noise of his weapons, equipment and armor, gaining an additional +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks when wearing armor. Finally, when dealing sneak attack damage because of the use of stealth (i.e. not from flanking) he gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack and damage. This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit. All of these bonuses increase by an additional 1 at 5th level and every four levels after that, to a maxiumum of +5 at 19th level. This replaces armor training.
I feel that with l of this extra camouflage and muffling going on, the Silent Blade will be more bulky and hampered, no matter how much stealth training he has. Perhaps some physical skills (climb, ride etc) should rather receive a greater penalty, not a reduced one.
As for the new Forced Quiet sound ability to nix casters, i like the flavour, not sure about mechanix balance.
I think Creatures that make sounds without a mouth should also be vulnerable to this abilty, but yeah, no discernable anatomy, no silencer. Knowledge check, away!
Both Divine Blade and Silent Warrior seem pretty well done. I like the capstone abilities.
kyrt-ryder: the one on the wiki is old. The one presented in this thread is an attempt to revise it and make it better.
@kyrt-ryder: Thanx for your input and welcome to the thread! As you can tell, the wiki is in the midst of a revamp as we are revising the Core MCAs. Once we have finished those, all of the MCAs on the wiki should be ready for use/further playtesting. If you're up for it, Flak can let you know which Core MCAs still need revising.
@Flak: can you repost/update the unclaimed Core MCA edit list? Also, do we have a "rough" guideline for our shiny new approach to improve those MCAs?
@everyone: Will post Divine Mage edit hopefully by the end of this week. Any more thoughts on the Hand of the God?
@cartmanbeck: what thinkest thou of silent warrior/ divine blade reviews?
@raiderrpg: Still wondering about putting an info blurb on wiki homepage. Whaddaya think? (don't forget Witchfinder orphan-link and Seersworn to Fellseer pagename change!)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
.
..
...
....
.....
There's no set guideline. I mean... use your judgment. Make something awesome. Try not to break it. :)
Spirit Warrior (Bbn/Drd) = Done
Holy Rager (Bbn/Pal) = Done
Songfilch (Brd/Rog) = Done
Warchanter (Bbn/Brd) = Done
Battle Adept (Clr/Ftr) = Done
Divine Agent (Rog/Clr) = Done
Divine Exemplar (Clr/Pal) = Done
Forest Partriarch (Clr/Rgr) = Done
Land Master (Drd/Rgr) = Done
Divine Emissary (Pal/Clr) = Done
Divine Duelist (Pal/Rog) = Done
Stealth Mage (Wiz/Rog) = Done
Divine Blade (Ftr/Clr) = cartmanbeck
Silent Warrior (Ftr/Rog) = cartmanbeck
Blooded Hunter(?) (Rgr/Sor) = Raiderrpg
Battle Knave (Rog/Ftr) = Flak
Battle Caster (Sor/Ftr) = Raiderrpg
Divine Mage (Wiz/Clr) = OSW
Absolute Arcanist (Wiz/Sor) = Flak
Living Refrain (Sor/Brd) = Flak
Radiant Herald (Pal/Brd) = Bardess
Remember, these were already made early on (refer to Elghinn's PDFs or the wiki), and are in need of a facelift to remain competitive in coolness with the rest.
Spellrager (Bbn/Sor) = Free
Spellarbor (Drd/Sor) = Free
Kubudo Warrior (Mnk/Ftr) = Free
Holy Fist (Mnk/Pal) = Free
Spellknight (Pal/Sor) = Free
Divine Warden (Rgr/Clr) = Free
Beast Hunter (Rgr/Drd) = Free
Spellthief (Rog/Sor) = Free
If possible, we don't we don't want to add to this list until we finish updating the core.
White Witch (Witch/Pal) = Flak (Redo)
Esoteric Chemist (Wiz/Alch) = Done
Witchfinder (Inq/Witch) = Done
Eldritch Fletcher (Ranger/Magus) = Raiderrpg
??? (Sorc/Alch) = Raiderrpg
Hand of God (???/???) = Bardess
Elghinn posted a guideline. It's in the first or second page of this thread, if I remember well.
Oh, that guideline. I always assumed that was more of an apology for our product than an explanation of our method, seeing as every good/cool archetype we've made has either expanded the guidelines or defied them.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
@kyrt-ryder: Thanx for your input and welcome to the thread! As you can tell, the wiki is in the midst of a revamp as we are revising the Core MCAs. Once we have finished those, all of the MCAs on the wiki should be ready for use/further playtesting. If you're up for it, Flak can let you know which Core MCAs still need revising.
@Flak: can you repost/update the unclaimed Core MCA edit list? Also, do we have a "rough" guideline for our shiny new approach to improve those MCAs?
@everyone: Will post Divine Mage edit hopefully by the end of this week. Any more thoughts on the Hand of the God?
@cartmanbeck: what thinkest thou of silent warrior/ divine blade reviews?
@raiderrpg: Still wondering about putting an info blurb on wiki homepage. Whaddaya think? (don't forget Witchfinder orphan-link and Seersworn to Fellseer pagename change!)
I'm happy with the reviews. I agree with you about the stealthiness hampering other abilities, so I'm thinking we should change the text to this:
Stealth Training: At 3rd level a Silent Warrior learns to move quickly and quietly even in the heaviest of armors. His speed is not reduced in medium armor, and heavy armor only reduces his speed as if it were medium armor. At 10th level, his speed is not reduced in heavy armor.In addition, the Silent Warrior uses cloth and other soft materials to muffle the sounds he would normally make during battle and camouflage his armor. He gains a +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, and armor check penalties never apply to his Stealth checks. The bulkiness of the soft materials hinders him in other ways, however, and his armor check penalty increases by 1 for every four levels of Silent Warrior.
Finally, when dealing sneak attack damage because of the use of stealth (i.e. not from flanking) he gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack and damage. This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit. All of these bonuses increase by an additional 1 at 5th level and every four levels after that, to a maxiumum of +5 at 19th level. This replaces armor training.
I can see what kyrt-ryder is saying about the channeled armor training, but since it's using the channel energy mechanic I'm skeptical about making it only take a swift action to activate. I was thinking it would be something you activate during the first round of combat, since it's minutes per level it would last way longer than any combat scenario. What do you guys think about that?
Just popping in quick, been EXTREMELY busy-
Possible ways to do channeled armor training that'd be balanced;
1) 1 minute per level, standard action.
2) 1 round per 2 levels, swift action.
The thing to remember, though, that it's a large bonus that won't stack with most other sources. Take whatever AC a normal fighter would have, add +1-5 depending on level, and boom. That's a significant amount. In fact, I'd feel better making it a deflection bonus or something.
On the whole, I think the class is good at D8 with Clerical BAB, just to help balance out channel energy, good will, and domain being waaay better than bravery, etc.
Gotta jet- I'll try to put up new Blooded Hunter and do the wiki-stuffs soon.
@Flak: thanks for the list update. Only 8 unclaimed CORE MCAs! And the ones in progress are looking goood! This is way cool. We....are....almost...on...top...of....this!
@cartmanbeck: RE: Silent Warrior. Not sure I'm following this:
Stealth Training: ...
In addition, the Silent Warrior uses cloth and other soft materials to muffle the sounds he would normally make during battle and camouflage his armor. He gains a +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, and armor check penalties never apply to his Stealth checks. The bulkiness of the soft materials hinders him in other ways, however, and his armor check penalty increases by 1 for every four levels of Silent Warrior. ...
This seems to me to mean he's getting worse as he progresses!?! I think there should either be an initial armor check penalty that the Silent Warrior gradually diminishes through training and experience, or a static armor penalty that stays there because he's all muffled and bulky no matter how lithe and dextrous he becomes. I don't think he should get MORE penalised as he advances.
RE: Divine Blade:I kinda agree with both Raiderrpg:
On the whole, I think the class is good at D8 with Clerical BAB, just to help balance out channel energy, good will, and domain being waaay better than bravery, etc.
AND kyrt-ryder:
I can't agree with killing the BAB. That's why this is a fighter Archtype. Make channeled armor training Deflection if you feel you must but for all that is holy (woah, totally did not expect that pun...) please keep full BAB.
How about full BAB, but balance out the channel energy,goodwill etc/bravery etc swap out - maybe d8 HP? Or d10hp and limit channel energy? Maybe neither of these are enough to balance it though. :)
EDIT: had another look, domain spells aren't so bad as spells are swapped for bonus feats, but domain powers could be crazy. So there seems to be a balance issue for sure. An idea: maybe channel energy could be limited in range or damage (d4s anyone?), or slightly modified and limited to self like Dervish Dancer's Battle Dance version of Bardic Performance.
Guys. Hold on.
The divine blade's bravery -> channel energy isn't broken. Why? Because if he USES channel energy, he sucks compared to a fighter. He needs to USE his channel energy just to pump up his sword/armor - basically, what a normal fighter gets automatically (weapon/armor training), the divine blade gets once or twice per day (how much charisma is this guy gonna have, seriously). Effectively he's giving up armor training, weapon training, AND bravery in order to get a bonus to attack and damage a couple times per day.
If you want to make the "channeled x training" fit in with existing abilities, check out the vindicator's shield ability (holy vindicator prestige class, level 1).
And remember: just because channel energy is a better ability than bravery, that does NOT mean that the trade is unbalanced here.
In fact I'd say the divine blade is simply weaker than a fighter, and than a cleric. With this evaluation I'm a bit worried about it, and think it might need some retooling. Definitely keep him at d10 and full BAB, at the very least. I also don't think you need to nerf his channel energy dice, though given that he'll never use channel energy to heal it might not matter.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Guys. Hold on.
The divine blade's bravery -> channel energy isn't broken. Why? Because if he USES channel energy, he sucks compared to a fighter. He needs to USE his channel energy just to pump up his sword/armor - basically, what a normal fighter gets automatically (weapon/armor training), the divine blade gets once or twice per day (how much charisma is this guy gonna have, seriously). Effectively he's giving up armor training, weapon training, AND bravery in order to get a bonus to attack and damage a couple times per day.If you want to make the "channeled x training" fit in with existing abilities, check out the vindicator's shield ability (holy vindicator prestige class, level 1).
And remember: just because channel energy is a better ability than bravery, that does NOT mean that the trade is unbalanced here.
In fact I'd say the divine blade is simply weaker than a fighter, and than a cleric. With this evaluation I'm a bit worried about it, and think it might need some retooling. Definitely keep him at d10 and full BAB, at the very least. I also don't think you need to nerf his channel energy dice, though given that he'll never use channel energy to heal it might not matter.
RE Divine Blade: I agree with Flak, the full BAB and d10 is pretty important for this guy. I'd be okay with the channeled armor training being either standard + minutes per level OR swift + rounds per level. Whichever you guys think is better. I think that kurt-ryder saying "a standard action will never be used by this guy" is a little nuts, cuz if you can add huge AC bonuses to yourself it's worth using up the first round of battle to do so. I think any player worth his weight in copper pieces would recognize that the boost in AC is important for this character, and would use the standard action.
RE Silent Warrior: Yeah you're totally right, having an increase to armor check penalty at the beginning and losing it slowly as he progresses would make more sense. How about this?
Stealth Training: At 3rd level a Silent Warrior learns to move quickly and quietly even in the heaviest of armors. His speed is not reduced in medium armor, and heavy armor only reduces his speed as if it were medium armor. At 10th level, his speed is not reduced in heavy armor.
In addition, the Silent Warrior uses cloth and other soft materials to muffle the sounds he would normally make during battle and camouflage his armor. He gains a +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, and armor check penalties never apply to his Stealth checks. The bulkiness of the soft materials hinders him in other ways, however, and his armor check penalty increases by 4. At 5th level and every four levels thereafter, his armor check penalty decreases by 1 (therefore at 17th level this additional armor check penalty will be 0).
Finally, when dealing sneak attack damage because of the use of stealth (i.e. not from flanking) he gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack and damage. This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit. Bonuses to Stealth and sneak attack increase by an additional +1 at 5th level and every four levels after that, to a maxiumum of +5 at 17th level. This replaces armor training.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Guys. Hold on.
The divine blade's bravery -> channel energy isn't broken. Why? Because if he USES channel energy, he sucks compared to a fighter. He needs to USE his channel energy just to pump up his sword/armor - basically, what a normal fighter gets automatically (weapon/armor training), the divine blade gets once or twice per day (how much charisma is this guy gonna have, seriously). Effectively he's giving up armor training, weapon training, AND bravery in order to get a bonus to attack and damage a couple times per day.If you want to make the "channeled x training" fit in with existing abilities, check out the vindicator's shield ability (holy vindicator prestige class, level 1).
And remember: just because channel energy is a better ability than bravery, that does NOT mean that the trade is unbalanced here.
In fact I'd say the divine blade is simply weaker than a fighter, and than a cleric. With this evaluation I'm a bit worried about it, and think it might need some retooling. Definitely keep him at d10 and full BAB, at the very least. I also don't think you need to nerf his channel energy dice, though given that he'll never use channel energy to heal it might not matter.
RE Divine Blade: I agree with Flak, the full BAB and d10 is pretty important for this guy. I'd be okay with the channeled armor training being either standard + minutes per level OR swift + rounds per level. Whichever you guys think is better. I think that kurt-ryder saying "a standard action will never be used by this guy" is a little nuts, cuz if you can add huge AC bonuses to yourself it's worth using up the first round of battle to do so. I think any player worth his weight in copper pieces would recognize that the boost in AC is important for this character, and would use the standard action.
RE Silent Warrior: Yeah you're totally right, having an increase to armor check penalty at the beginning and losing it slowly as he progresses would make more sense. How about this?
Stealth Training:...
LOL: Just realized I never wrote Stealth Mastery.
Stealth Mastery: At 20th level, a Silent Warrior becomes a silent shadow, sneaking past enemies to reach their leader and silence him forever. Once per day as a swift action, the Silent Warrior can become invisible as the spell for up to his Dexterity mod rounds. As a standard action while invisible, he can make a single attack. The invisibility ends regardless of whether the attack hits or not, but if it hits the attack is automatically treated as a critical hit, and his sneak attack dice are multiplied as if they were not precision-based damage.
Guys. Hold on.
The divine blade's bravery -> channel energy isn't broken. Why? Because if he USES channel energy, he sucks compared to a fighter. He needs to USE his channel energy just to pump up his sword/armor - basically, what a normal fighter gets automatically (weapon/armor training), the divine blade gets once or twice per day (how much charisma is this guy gonna have, seriously). Effectively he's giving up armor training, weapon training, AND bravery in order to get a bonus to attack and damage a couple times per day.
You've fallen into a homebrewing fallacy, Flak; assuming that passive means more than active.
Look at the raw numbers. The dood has a hefty amount more AC as the levels go, and can do back up area healing. It's all gonna be about the timing and use of the ability. And... the lack of Charisma does not matter.
I -CANNOT- stress this enough. 'Lack of Charisma' it's a wrong argument, plain and simple. Why? Two reasons. The Extra Channel feat, and a +6 magic item. That's a fine 5 more uses. Also magic items that can help with channeling, such as the Phylacteries.
Don't forget he can also toss some smiting in on this. Adding in 6d6 from Channeled Smite? Easy pick.
We are giving the Fighter ways to do the following, with nothing more than a feat- something they have -plenty- of.
1) Command Undead, up to 20 HD. Anyone who says that's weak needs to go look at all the undead under 20 HD. Like vampires and so on.
2) Deal extra damage to Outsiders, Undead, etc.
3) Go peek at Channeled Shield Wall. This is actually one of the reasons why I wanna make that AC bonus deflection. Just something cool to note. >:3
4) RAISE THE DEAD! Sorta. Channeled Revival, anyone? High level but fun.
5) Other stuff I'm forgetting about.
So no, Flak. No. You -cannot- state a defence of 'not as powerful as it seems', because with a few feats the Divine Blade can do a lot more than it seems. IF we keep that full BAB, we need to cut the armor training and weapon training, or at least weaken them up. Because Higher AC, group Healing, more special abilities and extra Damage? Do not balance out Bravery. Especially when they're some gold and an feat from all the uses they'll need in a day.
Oh, and don't forgot Versatile Channeler when you're thinking of builds here- it's an op choice, and we should assume just about every Divine Blade goes for it if they can.
And as a final side note... imagine the Channeled Smite with Divine Surge. Kill one guy, enjoy free +6d6 damage for 2d6 rounds? Yeah. 'Extreme Death Knell', that something we want to toss a full BAB class? xP
.
..
...
....
.....
You mock and patronize so don't expect cordiality from me :P
He doesn't have more AC as the levels go because he can't add more dex to his ac the way a normal fighter can. The raw numbers balance out.
+6 charisma item? o.k. what level do you get that at? you're spouting a lot of "options" ... why not do a few builds before mocking me? If a fighter spends 10 feats getting more uses of channel energy and channel smite, then that's 10 feats he didn't spend on being an OP 2HF power attacker. (And it's level 10) You want channel smite? At 5th level that's adding 7 damage. To one attack. A couple times per day. And it's further diluting what you're doing with your channel energy uses.
At 20th level, channel smite for 6d6? oh freaking no.
As for all the "new stuff" we're giving the fighter, well, it's a cleric, it makes sense that it can do what a cleric is doing. It does it far less well than a cleric. And they can't command undead because they have no caster level. (They only have a caster level "for the domain spell" according to the wording of the domain ability; they are not spellcasters.)
Because Higher AC, group Healing, more special abilities and extra Damage? Do not balance out Bravery.
Go reread my post. /reread the divine blade if you think that he gets all these things in return for bravery. He's giving up a lot. -_-
He doesn't have higher AC. He doesn't do extra damage. Channeled x training doesn't give him anything more than the normal passives a fighter would have, and only a few times per day. IF YOU ARE USING THESE ABILITIES, YOU CAN'T ALSO BE HEALING. Look at the baseline, no embellishments. You're taking several strong passives and conflating them into a single ability that has limited uses, shared with another ability. That's a fact. Yes, you can add more to the pool of resources with Extra Channel. But every time you take Extra Channel, you're eschewing dodge, power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, etc. And you're still no better than a fighter of your level, plus some really paltry group healing (21 hp per pop at 20th level). If you want to bring channel smite into the mix, you're just further tapping the resources. Extra Channel + Channeled Smite = 2 feats in order to add a few points of damage to your attack... a few times per day... oh and things get a Will save for half against those few points of damage.
I'm sorry, Raider, but it looks like your imagination got ahead of you. This is not powerful.
As for the capstone, didn't read it. I doubt it matters much, but if it's ridiculous it can be tuned down a bit. 20th-level balance is a crapshoot.
You mock and patronize so don't expect cordiality from me :PHe doesn't have more AC as the levels go because he can't add more dex to his ac the way a normal fighter can. The raw numbers balance out.
Prove it? You're telling me he's gonna have a +5 Dex to AC beyond the norm by that point, prove it.
And if so, then he's getting that +6 charisma item by not having to waste the money on a Dex one :P
Okay, maybe my imagination got ahead of me. But it's still pointed out a number of things; this guy needs an effective cleric level, we still need to figure out how far he can go.
And there's still Extreme Death Knell, the new reality show on Fox- er, the ~21 damage free a round, 2-12 rounds of it, isn't quite something to 'oh no' quite so sarcastically about. It's more than a feat does, after all, and he still -has- all those. He uses up one for Extra Channel, one for the smite. I'd think most fighter builds can afford -two- feats.
What about my other points? He's still got enough uses to channel energy through a number of encounters, for example.
You mock and patronize so don't expect cordiality from me :PHe doesn't have more AC as the levels go because he can't add more dex to his ac the way a normal fighter can. The raw numbers balance out.
Prove it? You're telling me he's gonna have a +5 Dex to AC beyond the norm by that point, prove it.
And if so, then he's getting that +6 charisma item by not having to waste the money on a Dex one :P
Okay, maybe my imagination got ahead of me. But it's still pointed out a number of things; this guy needs an effective cleric level, we still need to figure out how far he can go.
And there's still Extreme Death Knell, the new reality show on Fox- er, the ~21 damage free a round, 2-12 rounds of it, isn't quite something to 'oh no' quite so sarcastically about. It's more than a feat does, after all, and he still -has- all those. He uses up one for Extra Channel, one for the smite. I'd think most fighter builds can afford -two- feats.
What about my other points? He's still got enough uses to channel energy through a number of encounters, for example.
SIDENOTE NOT ACTUALLY POINTED TOWARDS THE CURRENT DEBATE
We need to do a LOT of clarification.
Divine Agent and Witchfinder, as examples; we're not stating effective cleric level or witch level to match the abilities such as Channel Energy or Hexes. We really need to figure out how to do that.
I'd like to put forth "Half effective level" as a benchmark? So, for example, Witchfinder at level 20 would have Hex DC's of 10+5+Int Modifier.
This keeps them viable, if not as powerful as the main classes. Note I'm only advocating the 'HEL' for the secondary class; the main class should keep the full DC they'd normally have.
Thoughts?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
SIDENOTE NOT ACTUALLY POINTED TOWARDS THE CURRENT DEBATE
We need to do a LOT of clarification.
Divine Agent and Witchfinder, as examples; we're not stating effective cleric level or witch level to match the abilities such as Channel Energy or Hexes. We really need to figure out how to do that.
I'd like to put forth "Half effective level" as a benchmark? So, for example, Witchfinder at level 20 would have Hex DC's of 10+5+Int Modifier.
This keeps them viable, if not as powerful as the main classes. Note I'm only advocating the 'HEL' for the secondary class; the main class should keep the full DC they'd normally have.
Thoughts?
Good point. We definitely need to pay attention to these DCs. I agree that the secondary class should have half-level DCs, so for example the channel energy DC for the Divine Blade should be 10 + 1/4 class level + Wis mod. Same type of thing for Silent Warrior, for any rogue talents he should be treated as a Rogue 1/2 his Silent Warrior level. Fair?
Strong disagree. We have "case law" as it were dating back from the original thread, from before most of you got involved, that things should be at full power unless decreasing their power is part of the balance. Decreasing power just because it's from the secondary class is nonsense. You're trading full class features for others, why make a bad trade? We want these to be competitive with a full base class. Should a wizard's arcane school powers operate at 1/2 wizard level because he already has full wizard level for his spells? No.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Strong disagree. We have "case law" as it were dating back from the original thread, from before most of you got involved, that things should be at full power unless decreasing their power is part of the balance. Decreasing power just because it's from the secondary class is nonsense. You're trading full class features for others, why make a bad trade? We want these to be competitive with a full base class. Should a wizard's arcane school powers operate at 1/2 wizard level because he already has full wizard level for his spells? No.
Oh yeah, you're right we had this debate before. LOL
Doesn't mean it's wrong to have the debate again, now that we've seen more of what can happen, right?
EDIT: For selection of talents and such; we shouldn't do half level. I'm reffering to Effective Level for stuff like amount of undead you could control, or DC's, etc. Not for actually selecting the options- if that makes sense?
Re: Effective Level. I agree with Flak, though it's a very good point Raider, and yes we can discuss it again if you think it's a real issue now. Not something I even thought of. (EDIT: I agree with Flak that you are making a swap, and don't want to swap a full catalogue of a power for a hamstrung one. Still having said that, )what about a full, 3/4, 1/2 Effective level option on a case by case basis, depending on each of the two classes and the balances the MCA requires based on what's actually being swapped out? And not for every ability!
Nice work people, good to see the juices flowing... ;)
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
You mock and patronize so don't expect cordiality from me :PHe doesn't have more AC as the levels go because he can't add more dex to his ac the way a normal fighter can. The raw numbers balance out.
Prove it? You're telling me he's gonna have a +5 Dex to AC beyond the norm by that point, prove it.
And if so, then he's getting that +6 charisma item by not having to waste the money on a Dex one :P
Okay, maybe my imagination got ahead of me. But it's still pointed out a number of things; this guy needs an effective cleric level, we still need to figure out how far he can go.
And there's still Extreme Death Knell, the new reality show on Fox- er, the ~21 damage free a round, 2-12 rounds of it, isn't quite something to 'oh no' quite so sarcastically about. It's more than a feat does, after all, and he still -has- all those. He uses up one for Extra Channel, one for the smite. I'd think most fighter builds can afford -two- feats.
What about my other points? He's still got enough uses to channel energy through a number of encounters, for example.
So, where are we on these two (Silent Warrior and Divine Blade)? There was a lot of back-and-forth but not a lot of suggestions on how to fix the problems you guys have seen... any thoughts? I think it's pretty reasonable as written myself, but obviously that's why we post things on the forum here.
I agree, however, that Divine Blade should have Command Undead nerfed somehow... I'm thinking since we have a slower progression of channel energy, doing calculations for any powers based on them should also be lower, so how about this:Channel energy: This functions exactly as the cleric ability of the same name, and progresses as shown in the table. The DC for resisting his channeling is equal to 10 + 1/2 Divine Blade level + his Wis mod. For the purposes of any Channel Energy feats or abilities (such as Turn or Command Undead), the Divine Blade is treated as a cleric of 1/2 his Divine Blade level. This ability replaces Bravery.
I'm thinking I'll start working on the Spellrager and Beasthunter, since both of those interest me.
Ehm, nobody here except OSW said nothing on my archetype. Is this because you unconditionately love it or because you find it distasteful?...