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DC Reboot - Justice League


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1 person marked this as a favorite.

SPOILERS AHEAD!
Just read it.

I liked it for what it was, an action packed first issue. I agree with the review (in the reboot thread, props to Joela) of Hal's personality, even though Hal Jordan is supposed to be fearless, the recklessness is abit much.
If they are trying to go the overconfident rookie route, they succeeded and it will take a severe hero-questioning mistake later to reign him in.

All in all, not too bad IMHO. Despite it's flaws I liked it. Is it an earth-shattering debut? No. It's a team book with many characters to cover probably in little time, so it was as good as I expected it to be.

Team books take longer to build on characterization based on the number of them in a single title. Give it a few issues before you decide it's horrible, and try to be impartial if you loathe the idea of a reboot.


I will always have the opinion that if it doesn't have the Martian Manhunter, then it isn't the Justice League.


Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
I will always have the opinion that if it doesn't have the Martian Manhunter, then it isn't the Justice League.

The book is redoing the origin of the JLA, Im sure MM will be along soon.


Sunderstone wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
I will always have the opinion that if it doesn't have the Martian Manhunter, then it isn't the Justice League.
The book is redoing the origin of the JLA, Im sure MM will be along soon.

I believe Martian Manhunter will be in The Authority, a title I've never liked.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Sunderstone wrote:

I liked it for what it was, an action packed first issue.

[...]

Team books take longer to build on characterization based on the number of them in a single title. Give it a few issues before you decide it's horrible, and try to be impartial if you loathe the idea of a reboot.

I completely disagree. This wasn't an action-packed issue; this was an issue where little of consequence happened. Batman and GL verbally spar while fighting the police, GL and Batman verbally spar some more, a mysterious alien explodes, Cyborg has issues with his father (told in the least efficient way possible), and Superman is introduced just in time for a cliffhanger.

We don't know anything about the world except that superheroes aren't well-known, Cyborg's origin story has only introduced the fact that he has issues with his father and he plays football, and there might be some aliens or something? All of the GL and Batman chatter might be interesting if it was going to go anywhere, but if we want to find out about either of their personalities, it's going to happen in their own books. The "action", such as it was, is completely pointless; I'm reminded of Animal Man getting pounded to a pulp by spurious villains while Grant Morrison thanks his collaborators, only played straight.

I thought they learned after Meltzer's (horrible) JL revamp, where (again) nothing happened for issue after issue and everything was talked to death. I don't oppose a reboot, and I don't even oppose decompressed storytelling, but nothing interesting happened in this issue.

wspatterson wrote:
I believe Martian Manhunter will be in The Authority, a title I've never liked.

Stormwatch, actually, but it's the same characters.

It's worth comparing this new JL reboot to Authority #1, to understand how to effectively introduce all the characters of a team book and also involve the reader in what will become the ongoing plot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:
Sunderstone wrote:

I liked it for what it was, an action packed first issue.

[...]

Team books take longer to build on characterization based on the number of them in a single title. Give it a few issues before you decide it's horrible, and try to be impartial if you loathe the idea of a reboot.

I completely disagree. This wasn't an action-packed issue; this was an issue where little of consequence happened.

Except for little things, like character and world building and tone establishment. Maybe it doesn't come as fast, furious and vulgar as The Authority, but that doesn't make it bad either.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Abbasax wrote:
Except for little things, like character and world building and tone establishment. Maybe it doesn't come as fast, furious and vulgar as The Authority, but that doesn't make it bad either.

No, what makes it bad is that it's a hugely hyped jumping on point to a new universe and we learned almost nothing about the universe or the characters from it. This would have been a mediocre issue if it were issue #104 of some ongoing series, or if we were expected to have read some other ongoings to know who these people are. As the establishment of a new setting, it's completely pathetic.

We learned that superheroes aren't well-known, that Cyborg has daddy issues, that Batman and GL kind of don't like each other maybe, and that the overarching villain may be related to Darkseid somehow (with no hints about who or what Darkseid is or why anyone should care). These are little things, but the big question of "Why should I care?" is left largely unanswered.

Authority #1 introduces all the characters, sets the tone of the comic, and introduces the overarching villain. Giant-Sized X-Men #1 does the same (in fewer pages!). JLA #1 sets the tone, introduces all the characters but Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman (who need no introduction), and effectively shows us how JLA is different from the comic it's replacing, Justice League International. Thunderbolts #1 introduces all of the characters, why they're important, what the team is, and still has room to turn the entire premise on its head by the end.

This is a really weak comic where little is introduced and nothing much happens. Decompression at its worst.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:
No, what makes it bad is that it's a hugely hyped jumping on point to a new universe

One of my disappointments was that New DCU wasn't hyped nearly as much as it should have been. Marvel will hype the hell out of Hulk stubbing his toe. In comparsion, DC was like "Yo, we're relaunching everything. Just as an fyi..."

A Man In Black wrote:


and we learned almost nothing about the universe or the characters from it.

They have 51 other books to flesh out the universe, they don't need to info dump on us in just one issue. It needed to be fast, entertaining, and very new user friendly. Which it was.

A Man In Black wrote:


This would have been a mediocre issue if it were issue #104 of some ongoing series, or if we were expected to have read some other ongoings to know who these people are. As the establishment of a new setting, it's completely pathetic.

I'm not going to argue with this, though I totally disagree with it. Comics are an art, and not everyone likes everything.

I'm also not going to say it was a perfect issue, it wasn't. I had some disappointments in it also, but I overall I did feel like it accomplished what it needed to do.

A Man In Black wrote:


Snipping the rest because it's repeating itself.

And the only thing JL #1 didn't do that those did, for all intents and purposes was introduce all the lead characters. Which it didn't need to do. I was totally involved with what was going on, I never once thought to myself "Gee, I wonder what Aquaman- a character I haven't even been introduced to- is doing?"

A Man In Black wrote:


Decompression at its worst.

Yeah, no.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Abbasax wrote:
Yeah, no.

So what happened in this issue?

And what happened in the same amount of pages in JLA #1?

JLA #1 introduced all the characters, set the tone of Justice League versus the worldbusting villains, made it clear that this book was replacing Justice League International, (re)familiarized readers with an important character that had been recently revamped, and even introduced a villain worth caring about (Justice League versus 90s antiheroes is an amusing fight).

I would be surprised if the first arc of Justice League v3 does as much. There's always the possibility that it's setting the tone of talking everything to death, including inane banter over interesting plot points; Geoff Johns channelling Bendis. Aieeee. I'm hoping this isn't going to be the case.

And, in fact, I am curious what Aquaman is doing, since he's highly likely to see significant revision (unlike Batman and Green Lantern), plus it answers the persistent pop-culture question of "Why is he on the Justice League, anyway?" Half of the characters on the cover of this comic are not actually in the comic itself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:


So what happened in this issue?

And what happened in the same amount of pages in JLA #1?

I'm putting my comparison in spoilers for those that haven't read either issue

JL&JLA:

I'm treating Justice League #1 as it's intended: A book accessible to brand new readers who may only have passing experience with DC (or comics in general).

Justice League # 1

It's established that this story occurs in the past
We discover that both costumed heroes and villains are treated as criminals by the GPCD
Batman seems unwilling to kill (though we don't know for sure), but has now problem shooting someone through the leg.
Batman is a myth outside of Gotham, even to other metas
We learn that costumed heroes aren't trusted by the military (Well, the Air Force at any rate), but it's implied that the GPCD are more hostile against them.
Batman seems to enjoy being feared, though GL isn't as enthused
Batman is territorial
GL is a space cop
GL? Just a little bit cocky
GL can control his ring even when it's not on
Darkseid (whoever or whatever that is) has something to do with this issue's villian
GL's ring knows what the Guardians know, but Darkseid is something new to them
Vic Stone loves football
Vic's dad is an absent father
Costumes seem to be showing up suddenly and more frequently
Vic's dad studies them
Batman and GL differ in their methods
Superman doesn't handle easy

JLA #1

There's so many superheroes that the government can't keep track of them
Rex isn't happy about the new JLA team
New heroes, the Hyperclan show up promising to save the planet
Their leaders story is similar to Superman's
The (soon to be) JLA members live around the nation: Gateway City, Central City, Denver, etc.. illustrating that the “of America” part the JLA
The Hyperclan seem to be true to their word, bringing water to the desert and other good works
Superman, though suspicious, is concerned about humanity squandering their potential
Humanity on the other hand, seems to be on the Hyperclan's side
Hyperclan is totally not above executing villains (and, seemingly, Marvel characters) if the 'Clan feels they've crossed a line
This causes supervillians to go into hiding, and crime to decrease worldwide
In orbit, the soon-to-be-ex-Justice League, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern get attacked by mysterious opponents
As the heroes get quickly overwhelmed they suspect that its the Hyperclan that's attacking them.
Wonder Woman doesn't stand on ceremony
Green Lantern feels out of his league
As the JL satellite gets destroyed, Metamorpho turns himself into an escape vehicle
Woman can't hold the satellite together and it finally disintegrates
We discover that the Hyperclan has been on Earth a very long time ago, and that they don't hold humans in high reguard
Metamopho is inert
Superman and Flash gather the rest of the Big Seven
Public opinion says against the JLA
Protex denies any attacking the satellite, but Supes knows he's lying
Batman reveals that the Hyperclan is using some kind of mind control
Oh, and the JLA goes to war

There are more points in JLA, but not insanely so in my opinion.

Now for nitpicky stuff.

A Man In Black wrote:


JLA #1 introduced all the characters,

Nope. No Aquaman appearance, though he is mentioned. Also, no Plastic Man for nearly a year.

A Man In Black wrote:
made it clear that this book was replacing Justice League International,

The JLI had been gone for nearly two years. This was replacing Gerald Jones' Justice League America title.

A Man In Black wrote:
(re)familiarized readers with an important character that had been recently revamped,

Actually, in rereading it, I was very surprised to discover how unfriendly JLA #1 would probably have been for readers new to comics. It's pretty normal for Morrison to just throw a bunch of characters into a comic without much context, and I love it. I feel like it adds verisimilitude, but I can easily see someone with only passing knowledge of Superman and Batman walking away from JLA in confusion.

Which really just highlights the difference in goals between the two books. JLA was meant to get people who was already into comics excited about the League again. JL is meant to be a user friendly introduction for people who have either fallen away from comics, or have never even read any before. There's a huge difference in audience there.

A Man In Black wrote:


And, in fact, I am curious what Aquaman is doing, since he's highly likely to see significant revision

Sure, me too. Luckily for me there'll be more then one issue for me to discover what he's doing.

A Man In Black wrote:
Half of the characters on the cover of this comic are not in the comic itself.

*shrug* Rare is the comic cover that has anything to do with the actual comic.


Abbasax wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:


So what happened in this issue?

And what happened in the same amount of pages in JLA #1?

I'm putting my comparison in spoilers for those that haven't read either issue

** spoiler omitted **...

WOW, reading your comparison really shows... That JLA was leagues and miles better. The villains are presented, shown they're powerful and bold enough to attack the league and then the heroes start to counter attack.

JL#1 shows one enemy running scared of the heroes (great way to build tension isn't it? Showing that the enemy is weak). We learn that Green Lantern is stupid (Bats just stole the ring right out of his hand and he dismisses the guy as nothing?) and the guardians are incompetent (Darkseid is one of the biggest threats to everyrithing since times immemorial and they know nothing about him). Also, the cops in Gotham are shooting heavy artillery in the city, chasing a guy who doesn't have any actual crime to his name (I can get chasing down a vigilante but what is the excuse to bring the gatling gun the cop on the right in the first panel is carrying). And supes new uniform is ugly. Looks wrinkly. And he seems too eager to fight, kinda OOC. And Cy going straight to the Justice League means that almost ALL Teen Titans story goes down the drain.

Off-topic: Aquaman is in the league because he is badass. He has been badass since... well, Morrisons JLA. The recent cartoons just cemented it. People need to forget Superfriends Aquaman and remember Justice League Unlimited Aquaman or even Batman Brave and the Bold Aquaman.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Regarding comics where lots of stuff goes on, and how much confusion it causes:

My first DC comicbook was JLA #104 (Hawkman quits the JLA to return to Thanagar! Oh, and Eclipso tries to blow up the world by creating duplicates of himself made out of energies from the black diamond.) There were a lot of characters in that book. I was familiar with many of them from cartoons, but others were new to me. The storyline, though, made sense. It told me what I needed to know. I might have had to read through it three times or so to catch all of the Green Arrow / Hawkman / Black Canary interpersonal dynamic, but it wasn't going anywhere.

A similar experience occurred when I started reading Superboy and LSH (Brainiac 5 had gone crazy and was attacking his fellow legionaires). The complication, the way it wasn't all laid out for me, let me know that I was entering into an already-existing story that had a rich background. It wasn't a barrier.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
VM mercenario wrote:


WOW, reading your comparison really shows... That JLA was leagues and miles better. The villains are presented, shown they're powerful and bold enough to attack the league and then the heroes start to counter attack.

There's no organized heroes for the bad guys to attack right now. This is the beginning of the new DCU.

VM mercenario wrote:


JL#1 shows one enemy running scared of the heroes (great way to build tension isn't it? Showing that the enemy is weak).

It shows a villain that's single minded enough to focus on his mission. He wasn't there to fight Batman, he was there to plant his devices, which he did. Bad guys won that round.

VM mercenario wrote:


We learn that Green Lantern is stupid (Bats just stole the ring right out of his hand and he dismisses the guy as nothing?)
I won't comment on if he's stupid or not, but I will say that he's a rookie. He didn't know that someone even could lift the ring off him, and why would he? Conversely, it also shows just how good Batman is.
VM mercenario wrote:


and the guardians are incompetent (Darkseid is one of the biggest threats to everyrithing since times immemorial and they know nothing about him).

No, Darkseid isn't. This is the beginning of the DCU. Reader's of the previous DCU may know who he is, but the heroes never heard of him. The Guardians may never of heard of him. Or, the Guardians may just be keeping the knowledge of him secret for their own inscrutable reasons.

VM mercenario wrote:


Also, the cops in Gotham are shooting heavy artillery in the city, chasing a guy who doesn't have any actual crime to his name (I can get chasing down a vigilante but what is the excuse to bring the gatling gun the cop on the right in the first panel is carrying).

Yeah, got nothing for that. I guess the GCPD are just jerks.

VM mercenario wrote:


And supes new uniform is ugly. Looks wrinkly. And he seems too eager to fight, kinda OOC.

I'm still undecided on Superman's costume, it's honestly not my favorite.

Yeah, the "Hero meets hero and PUNCHES EACH OTHER!" trope is a definitely a problem I with the issue.

VM mercenario wrote:


And Cy going straight to the Justice League means that almost ALL Teen Titans story goes down the drain.

It's a new DC, that means new history.

VM mercenario wrote:


Off-topic: Aquaman is in the league because he is badass. He has been badass since... well, Morrisons JLA.

Aquaman is a badass. Though, for me personally, it was Peter David that made him that way.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

Regarding comics where lots of stuff goes on, and how much confusion it causes:

My first DC comicbook was JLA #104 (Hawkman quits the JLA to return to Thanagar! Oh, and Eclipso tries to blow up the world by creating duplicates of himself made out of energies from the black diamond.) There were a lot of characters in that book. I was familiar with many of them from cartoons, but others were new to me. The storyline, though, made sense. It told me what I needed to know. I might have had to read through it three times or so to catch all of the Green Arrow / Hawkman / Black Canary interpersonal dynamic, but it wasn't going anywhere.

A similar experience occurred when I started reading Superboy and LSH (Brainiac 5 had gone crazy and was attacking his fellow legionaires). The complication, the way it wasn't all laid out for me, let me know that I was entering into an already-existing story that had a rich background. It wasn't a barrier.

My very first comic was an issue of Peter Parker The Spectacular Spider-Man. It was the final half of a two-parter where he fought The Owl in the Natural History Museum. I didn't have a single clue who anyone was that appeared in that issue, but I loved it.

My first DC book was also the final part of a two parter of a Justice League of America story were they fight some green Egyptian god guy. I don't even think any of the Big Three were in it. I was very confused, but I enjoyed it. (Though I didn't read DC for a long time after because I was a Marvel boy)

I also worked at a comic story a decade, and I've seen that there really is a barrier. I've talked to more people then I've that I want to think about that couldn't get into comics because of it. The depressing thing is most of them wanted to. They came in after seeing X-Men, or Spider-Man, or even Lord of the Rings, and wanted to experience real comics but weren't able to make it past that initial barrier. It can be overwhelming because they think they need to know everything about everyone up front. Worse, they feel stupid because the book assumes they know things they have no possible way of knowing at the moment.

This is always going to happen with comics at some point, there's really no way around it. The more you try to make it user friendly, the more "simplified" it is to long-time readers, but there needs to be some entry level stuff for the hobby to survive.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
VM mercenario wrote:
We learn that Green Lantern is stupid (Bats just stole the ring right out of his hand and he dismisses the guy as nothing?)

Dude! This is where I thankfully stopped reading. It's called a spoiler tag. Thanks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MeanDM wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
We learn that Green Lantern is stupid (Bats just stole the ring right out of his hand and he dismisses the guy as nothing?)
Dude! This is where I thankfully stopped reading. It's called a spoiler tag. Thanks.

Dang it, I totally should have spoilered my response to that post also. I'm very sorry. Mea culpa.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Abbasax wrote:
Which really just highlights the difference in goals between the two books. JLA was meant to get people who was already into comics excited about the League again. JL is meant to be a user friendly introduction for people who have either fallen away from comics, or have never even read any before. There's a huge difference in audience there.

Mmkay. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume people know who Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman are, but that's fair. I only picked JLA #1 because it was a successful JL relaunch in recent memory.

Giant-Sized X-Men #1 introduces all the characters with two-page stories, gives them some time to set up interpersonal dynamics, then even sends them off to fight Krakoa, in less pages than JL #1 took. Authority #1 introduces the entire cast and the villains and shows what both can do, again, in a comparable number of pages. Both require no knowledge but what you get in the issue.

Quote:
This was replacing Gerald Jones' Justice League America title.

Which was using the same characters as the Giffen/DeMatteis era and mostly continuing its main arcs. I'm not a huge fan of JLA, while or after Morrison was on it; its first issue is simply a good example of how to (re)launch a team book.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post and the replies to it. Play nice.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:


Giant-Sized X-Men #1 introduces all the characters with two-page stories, gives them some time to set up interpersonal dynamics, then even sends them off to fight Krakoa, in less pages than JL #1 took. Authority #1 introduces the entire cast and the villains and shows what both can do, again, in a comparable number of pages. Both require no knowledge but what you get in the issue.

It's been a very long time since I read either of those (especially Giant Sized X-Men), so I'll take your word on that. I do seem to remember that Authority #1 assumed some passing knowledge of Stormwatch, but either way I agree that Authority # 1 is a great example of a first issue.

A Man In Black wrote:


Quote:
This was replacing Gerald Jones' Justice League America title.
Which was using the same characters as the Giffen/DeMatteis era and mostly continuing its main arcs. I'm not a huge fan of JLA, while or after Morrison was on it; its first issue is simply a good example of how to (re)launch a team book.

None of the Giffen/DeMatteis team was around for the Jones' days. Well, expect L-Ron I think. He'd taken over Despero's body, iirc. But like I said, that's just stupid nit-picking on my part and really has nothing to do with anything.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post replying to previously removed posts.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

A Man In Black wrote:
This would have been a mediocre issue if it were issue #104 of some ongoing series
Chris Mortika wrote:
My first DC comicbook was JLA #104 (Hawkman quits the JLA to return to Thanagar! Oh, and Eclipso tries to blow up the world by creating duplicates of himself made out of energies from the black diamond.)

This coincidence amuses the hell out of me.

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