I agree that this is confusing and have marked the FAQ button. I have ruled it in out group that the bonus applies equally to both the armor and the tower shield at the same time.
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this part of the archtype has my confused. i asked my group on thier opion and they seem a little off with it too. im asking weather the bonuses go to both the dex mod and armor check pen, meaning the armor you are wareing and tower shield or are they a combined thing and the dex goes to the "lowest" and builds from there.
Tower Shield Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a tower shield
specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he
employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3
and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor
increases by 2. The benefit increases every four levels
thereafter as per standard armor training; if the tower
shield specialist is not employing a tower shield, the
benefits to armor training revert to the normal bonuses.
Eh...Tower Shields are for Clerics.
There are better variants for the tower shield imo. By the RAP it seems only your armor penalty for armor not shields.
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heck ya, if memory serves me right i think with all the benifits of +5 armor and shield, plus right and NA, a few ion stones, and feats your looking around 60 ac at 20 lv.. which is very nice.. plus you get dr 5/- too im building this as a back up guy for one of my games..
Which is irrelevant really - I don't know too many DMs that continue to have the bad guys continue to fail horribly at hitting said tank that doesn't do very much damage, when the fleshy sneak attacking rogue or two-handed raving underarmored barbarian is standing there right next to him.
The problem IMO from a players perspective with these builds is that there is and always has been very limited in-game means of forcing a bad guy to square off against the guy that can't get hit.
Not to mention the fact that until shields actually apply towards touch AC (something I've lobbied for forever), they're still a sitting duck against so many horrible powerful touch/range-touch spells while the rogue either goes unscathed by reflex spells and not even bothered to be targeted by touch/range-touch spells.
I love playing "tank" type characters - but most DMs do exactly what I did when I had such a paladin in my Age of Worms game with a 52 AC. Round one - cant do a dam thing against him with melee......move on to the the elven rogue, or the human barbarian. In the end it's always the other players that lose in such a situation. And there wasn't a dam thing the paladin could do to force the dude to attack him. Sure at best he got an AoO from the paladin (with a much worse attack rate due to lower str than the fighter or barbarian due to multiple stat dependancy, no bonus feats to afford weapon focus or improved weapon focus, and no weapon training of the fighter - his attack rate was 7 less for a main combatant than either the fighter or the barbarian), and the damage was paltry in comparison, to the others as well due to lower strength and no weapon specialization etc; so the AoO was a bug-bite to the high level foes.
But I digress. Sorry for the soapbox.
I loved the tower shield fighter type - and would love to try it - I just know it's not practical in most situations unfortunately. Fixing a character to have high AC doesn't fix the problem that he's still not a threat (except for the most specific of scnearios in tight spaces where he can body block for the rest of the party).
Robert
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So he puts on a Hat of Disguise and looks like a bard waiting to get stabbed.
LOL Well said!!!
That works for round one. When a sentient creature (who usually doesn't think in metagaming sense that - "hey i'm only a piddly little CR3 creature and should be minimally effective against this group") uses what it considers to be it's best form of attack and it fails miserably bouncing off a person easily and clumsily - defying the "bard in a fancy hat", and another appears to hurt him, he's usually going to try for easier prey, lower hanging fruit so to speak.
Robert
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Not to mention the fact that until shields actually apply towards touch AC (something I've lobbied for forever), they're still a sitting duck against so many horrible powerful touch/range-touch spells while the rogue either goes unscathed by reflex spells and not even bothered to be targeted by touch/range-touch spells.
All of which the Tower Shield Specialist archetype gets. Shield bonus to touch AC (Tower Shield Defense at level 9), evasion (Tower Shield Evasion at level 16), and improved evasion (Tower Shield Evasion at level 20). Not to mention Burst Barrier at level 2 to gain a bonus on Reflex saves Vs burst effects, and Immediate Repositioning at level 13 to get to most out of the 'full cover' aspect of tower shields.
Finagle your party spell-chuckers into taking the Shield Wall teamwork Feat with you (a bit of a tax for them, sure - easier if you have a Cavalier who takes it with his Tactician Class Feature) and you can act as a mobile barrier to protect them while they rain mystical destruction down upon your foes... Good times... :)
Which is irrelevant really - I don't know too many DMs that continue to have the bad guys continue to fail horribly at hitting said tank that doesn't do very much damage, when the fleshy sneak attacking rogue or two-handed raving underarmored barbarian is standing there right next to him.
The problem IMO from a players perspective with these builds is that there is and always has been very limited in-game means of forcing a bad guy to square off against the guy that can't get hit.
I don't know too many DMs that tell their players exactly what AC they need to hit for the monsters after only one round. And if players don't get the benefit of knowing a creature's AC, why should monsters? If they roll, say, 16 or better and didn't hit then perhaps they've got a good inkling that the target AC is out of their league.
Now granted, if the sneak-attacking Rogue or raging Barbarian standing next to the tank are doing far more damage, that's a valid reason to change tactics. Metagaming the AC isn't.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I may have said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here, with the caveat that I can speak only for my RAI in designing the archetype and that my comments do not represent an official ruling by Paizo for RAW rulings for PFS or anything else:
The armor/shield training class feature of the Tower Shield Specialist are intended to apply in parallel to both armor and shield.
grafikie wrote:
then you are limited to the dex mod of the tower shield at +2 which renders the armor training for any other armor. with regular training you are using a non limiting shield (heavy or light) which does not interfear with your dex. hence i beleive it should be applied to both (for book-keeping sake) but take the lowest dex mod (be it from armor or shield) which would benifit the tower shield specialist. since that person is a specialist.Huh, I didn't realize that tower shields had a dex mod like armors, in that case I am inclined to agree with you for the sake of fairness and not nerfing the tower shield specialist.
I was in the same boat, and it took me a 3rd look before I realized this (rarely used tower shields because of the penalty to hit in past games). As his DM in our session yesterday I pointed out that RAW, it only applies to armor (which is silly, since the extra bonuses you get from the specialist do not even count since it goes above what you can even use with the tower shield), but that I believed RAI should grant you a higher AC, which is the WHOLE FRICKEN POINT of a tower shield specialist. So in my games I'm going to go with what I believe is the intent of the archetype, but it WOULD be nice to get some official clarification either in a post or in errata.
[High AC] is irrelevant really - ...more...
I have to disagree. A player in the last campaign I GM'd played a tower shield fighter, and was VERY effective. Most creatures had to roll 19-20 to hit him, and boss monsters generally needed 15+. By using a X4 crit weapon (with good bonuses) he kept monsters from ignoring him. Once the monster was on the ropes, he would lose the shield and two handed power attack with the weapon. Not bad with a bow, improved iron will, and a 30' move rate. What else is there?
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Mind the necro, but I am curious if this was ever settled? We have James Nelson stating the intened way to apply to the armor/shield, and it is noted that it is answered in the FAQ.
However, taking a look at the FAQ, I am unable to find the link to the change. Am I missing something here, or is this something that fell through the cracks?
It probably fell through the cracks, I don't see it either.
Unless they're taking Jason Nelson's word as a ruling.
I re-read the ability. Treating the character without a Tower Shield, its adjustment is 1 MDB/1 ACP. With a Tower Shield, its adjustment is 2/3, increasing by 1/1 per rank, just like Armor Training.
As far as it affecting both, I wouldn't say it exactly. The problem is with ACP and MDB having different rule sets. ACP stacks and accumulates, whereas you take the lowest MDB permissible.
In this case, I'd rule that it reduces the total ACP accrued by the listed amount, since the ACP comes from both a Tower Shield and Armor. As far as the MDB is concerned, I can't really tell that a Tower Shield (with a standard +2 MDB) will always be higher than a character using armor. With that said, wearing Full Plate without a Tower Shield yields the standard 1/1, whereas with the Tower Shield it grants the 2/3.
The big issue is that no matter where the MDB increase applies, it doesn't really change the MDB limit, since RAW, the armor's MDB is increased, whereas the Tower Shield forever remains at +2, and is something that should be clarified as to how it affects the character's MDB.
Personally, I think that in this case, the Tower Shield Training ability should state that it will always force you to take the Tower Shield's MDB over the Armor's MDB while a Tower Shield is being wielded, or that when affected by a MDB, the character gets to choose which MDB they are affected by.
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However, the person who written the archetype, Jason Nelson, stated that it applies to both armor and shield, as stated by a post earlier in the thread:
I may have said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here, with the caveat that I can speak only for my RAI in designing the archetype and that my comments do not represent an official ruling by Paizo for RAW rulings for PFS or anything else:
The armor/shield training class feature of the Tower Shield Specialist are intended to apply in parallel to both armor and shield.
Emphasis mine. Now it is not whether or not it is RAW or RAI, it is whether or not it has been applied to the FAQ or not.
However, the person who written the archetype, Jason Nelson, stated that it applies to both armor and shield, as stated by a post earlier in the thread:
Emphasis mine. Now it is not whether or not it is RAW or RAI, it is whether or not it has been applied to the FAQ or not.I may have said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here, with the caveat that I can speak only for my RAI in designing the archetype and that my comments do not represent an official ruling by Paizo for RAW rulings for PFS or anything else:
The armor/shield training class feature of the Tower Shield Specialist are intended to apply in parallel to both armor and shield.
At first glance, it'd be a very powerful Armor Training adjustment, but incurring an insane -16 ACP is quite a daunting factor.
If the RAW was worded to include the mechanics of ACP and MDB, it would have no issue. But it isn't, and bringing another item factor into the mix doesn't help it any (no offense).
Again, the confusion comes from the RAW treating ACP and MDB as two of the same mechanics for benefits, on top of which including two items into one of the statistics, of which, only allows one. If anything, it should've been worded like this:
This functions as the Armor Training feature, except it applies to Tower Shields as well. In addition, the initial bonuses increase the Maximum Dexterity Bonus allotted by Tower Shields by 2, and decrease the amount of Armor Check Penalty accrued from a Tower Shield by 3. Each rank besides the first increases both Maximum Dexterity Bonuses and decrease Armor Check Penalties as the standard class feature for both Armor and Tower Shields as normal. The Tower Shield Specialist uses the Tower Shield's Maximum Dexterity Bonus in place of any other Maximum Dexterity Bonus applied from armor or other items (but not from Maximum Dexterity Bonuses limited by encumberance or non-proficiency).
Problem Solved.
But what if u are holding two shields? Would the bonus apply to each tower shield or just one?
Darkorbit, the ability would apply to both shields. However, note that shield bonuses do not stack - there is no real benefit to wielding two tower shields in the rules.
The reason people use two (heavy or light) shields is to TWF shield bashes, but those are by the rules not allowed with a tower shield.
EDIT: Also note that while bonuses don't usually stack, penalties do. I'm not sure if theres some exception to that rule when it comes to ACP, but if there isn't, wielding say two tower shields and a full plate will, assuming they are all masterwork you will have a -23 armor check penalty. With 14 dex, skill focus and a rank your acrobatics will be at -17. Which means as soon as you have to do acrobatics checks, you will fail and fall miserably and not be able to get up.
Dual-wielding tower shields is basically saying Hey, break me with a 1st level spell please!.
Or an 11 inch wide ledge. Or moving at full speed in a cavern or up some stairs or on a 3 feet wide bridge.
In other words, great for a tournament on an open plain without muddy ground. Not so great for spelunking or dungeon delving. Of course, at level 10 with a mithral full plate it's only -8 for a tower shield specialist, and with 14 dex, 10 ranks and skill focus you've got +18 for a total modifier of acrobatics +10, which is a LOT better, but the first few levels will be harsh.
Darkorbit, the ability would apply to both shields. However, note that shield bonuses do not stack - there is no real benefit to wielding two tower shields in the rules.
The reason people use two (heavy or light) shields is to TWF shield bashes, but those are by the rules not allowed with a tower shield.
. Ok. First off, I'm using tower shields and I'm using them as improvised weapons. And if u get the feat Two Shield Fighting by 4 Winds Fantasy Games, u can apply both shields to ac while in battle. But thanks for the clarification on the shield bonus thing.
. Ok. First off, I'm using tower shields and I'm using them as improvised weapons. And if u get the feat Two Shield Fighting by 4 Winds Fantasy Games, u can apply both shields to ac while in battle. But thanks for the clarification on the shield bonus thing.Darkorbit, the ability would apply to both shields. However, note that shield bonuses do not stack - there is no real benefit to wielding two tower shields in the rules.
The reason people use two (heavy or light) shields is to TWF shield bashes, but those are by the rules not allowed with a tower shield.
Yeah, with a bunch of house rules and 3pp material you could probably pull it off but it'll be harsh. See my update on the armor check penalties for the first 5 or so levels.
Yeah, with a bunch of house rules and 3pp material you could probably pull it off but it'll be harsh. See my update on the armor check penalties for the first 5 or so levels.. Ok. First off, I'm using tower shields and I'm using them as improvised weapons. And if u get the feat Two Shield Fighting by 4 Winds Fantasy Games, u can apply both shields to ac while in battle. But thanks for the clarification on the shield bonus thing.Darkorbit, the ability would apply to both shields. However, note that shield bonuses do not stack - there is no real benefit to wielding two tower shields in the rules.
The reason people use two (heavy or light) shields is to TWF shield bashes, but those are by the rules not allowed with a tower shield.
thanks but im fine with the first few levels being hard, i just wanna get good when im bigger
Well, it's hard to get good when you're dead. And the risk of dying during an adventure if you get stuck on the first sight of ice/stairs/rubble/whatever is very high.
I'd stick to a single tower shield until you've got at least Armor training and skill focus (acrobatics), at the very least that is.
ok ill just put away my two tower shields and hold my axe if i need to climb stairs or anything like that.