[UC] Can you cast 'Permanency' on a container with 'Abundant Ammunition'?


Rules Questions


And if so how much would is cost?


harmor wrote:
And if so how much would is cost?

No, spells that can be made permanent will say so in their description.

If it could, I'd imagine it'd be CL 9th @ 2,500gp.

EDIT: However, permanency DOES allow for DM discretion. :)

The Exchange

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A 'continuous use' magic item with the abundant ammunition spell should have a base value of 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2 (minutes/level usual duration) x 2,000gp = 4,000gp. With the Craft Wonderous Item Feat you can knock one out at level 3 for a mere 2,000gp.

To be honest, considering the limits of the spell (non-magical ammo only, and you can't just keep emptying it out into a big pile of infinite ammo - it vanishes after 6 seconds) I'd say that's actually a balanced cost too. In essence, it's mostly a way to cut down on boring ammo bookkeeping, and a way to make the poor repeating crossbow into a viable weapon - both good things IMHO! :)


ProfPotts wrote:
To be honest, considering the limits of the spell (non-magical ammo only, and you can't just keep emptying it out into a big pile of infinite ammo - it vanishes after 6 seconds) I'd say that's actually a balanced cost too.

"dissapears" - I just took this as meaning "the ammo dissapears and reappears in your quiver (unless broken, etc). But the way you explain it sounds *a lot* better!! Lol


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Here's an item I created many years ago in 3.5.

Gloves of Readied Ammo:
Gloves of Readied Ammo
Price (Item Level): 25,000 gp (15th)
Body Slot: — (hands)
Caster Level: 12th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) conjuration
Activation: Free (manipulation)
Weight: —

These gloves appear as a light tan set of sturdy leather work gloves snuggly fit to the wearer’s hand. On the back of each glove in an embroidery of a hammer and anvil surrounded by small stitching patterned after various thrown or projectile weapons.

Once per day, these gloves will consume 1 ammo item, duplicate it 50 times and store it in the gloves. The embroidered pattern on the back of the gloves will mimic the number and the item that was consumed. This will only work on arrows, bolts, sling bullets, darts, shuriken, throwing daggers and any other item considered as tiny and ammo-like. The gloves will not work on conjured items or miscellaneous magical items. Any permanent enchantments or poisons on the original item are also duplicated. Spells designed to effect ammunition can be duplicated, but only for the duration of the original spell. An enchantment designed to effect ammunition may be cast on to the gloves to affect the remaining items. Once an item is drawn from the gloves it can not be returned or consumed for the next days use and will dissolve in 1 round. Once an item is thrown or shot, it is always destroyed on impact in a shower of sparks. Drawing items from the gloves is a free action.

Inspired by Gloves of Endless Javalins (M194) and Glove of Storing (D257).

Prerequisites: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, major creation and shrink item.
Cost to Create: 12,500 gp, 1000 XP, 25 days

History:
These gloves created out of necessity from constant orc raids against the city. The city would soon deplete its resources repelling the year long standing orc assult. The orcs hoped to harass and blockade the city in to submission, but the wizards and craftsmen were very resourceful. One of the many solutions was the gloves of readied ammo. Archers only expended 1/50th of the ammo prepared to allow their stores to last such a long time. Over the years, the formula in creating these gloves got more sophisticated allowing for a wider variety of ammunition and spell ability, but retains the sparking on impact originally designed to scare the orcs.

Endless Ammunition is already a +2 magic weapon enchantment. Putting a permanent abundant ammunition on a quiver will be very powerful despite the small cost. Some spells just don't translate well when making a magic item like true strike. Even looking back at the gloves I made seems to be under priced. If I changed it to non-magical ammo duplication, it would be better priced.

Liberty's Edge

ProfPotts wrote:

A 'continuous use' magic item with the abundant ammunition spell should have a base value of 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2 (minutes/level usual duration) x 2,000gp = 4,000gp. With the Craft Wonderous Item Feat you can knock one out at level 3 for a mere 2,000gp.

To be honest, considering the limits of the spell (non-magical ammo only, and you can't just keep emptying it out into a big pile of infinite ammo - it vanishes after 6 seconds) I'd say that's actually a balanced cost too. In essence, it's mostly a way to cut down on boring ammo bookkeeping, and a way to make the poor repeating crossbow into a viable weapon - both good things IMHO! :)

I did this for my archer a while back. It was not in the least bit overpowered. The DM and I decided that on a natural 1 attack roll the arrow was lost. Basically for a moderate cost the record keeping required for an archer was kept to a minimum. Prior to this solution, I carried several hundred arrows in a bag of holding and simply replenished my quivers at the end of an encounter. The Efficient Quiver with continuous Abundant Ammunition was simply a more elegant solution

Grand Lodge

There was a 3.5 item, the quiver of endless ammunition or some such, that provided infinite ammo, with some ammunition limited in quantity (e.g. 5 adamantine arrows per day, IIRC), at a cost of 18,000 gp

Dark Archive

Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, this really falls in the category of "Ask your GM" because spells not on the list (and this one is not) fall to GM discretion.

As to whether I would allow it, I'd probably agree most with InsaneFox. 2500gp


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There's always this.


I really think this is overpriced as a +2 enhancement. As long as it only puts out nonmagical ammo I don't see it being worth more than 2000 gp as special weapon ability.


But it is "official" and gives us the price point that Paizo thinks it is worth for comparison.

Scarab Sages

master_marshmallow wrote:
There's always this.

I'd say the Dagger of Doubling is a better comparison.


Skylancer4 wrote:
But it is "official" and gives us the price point that Paizo thinks it is worth for comparison.

Paizo messed up. It's a 4,000 gp value effect at a cost of 18,000 gp (at least).

It's probably a reaction to trying to balance out all the crazy ranged damage builds, forcing them to spend a turn casting abundant ammunition at higher levels or, alternatively, trading out the increased chance to hit or other special weapon abilities to not worry about arrow accounting.


Endless Ammunition is terribly overpriced. Now if it was priced at 8000 gold flat price (which is the same as a +2 enhancement) but without actually affecting the enhancement state of the bow (and thus increasing the subsequent price to raise the enhancement on the bow) that would be reasonable.

As it sits, Endless Ammunition is worthless unless your GM is really hardcore about how many arrows you use.

Considering I can buy durable arrows that don't get destroyed when fired for 1 gp each. 200 gp gets me 200 plain arrows. More than enough for any single combat. Then I can spend a few hundred other gold on getting cold iron, mithral, and adamantine durable arrows that will do the same and last through virtually any combat.

Endless Ammunition is an incredibly overpriced ability.


Claxon wrote:
Now if it was priced at 8000 gold flat price (which is the same as a +2 enhancement)

It's even higher because you have to have a +1 weapon to begin with. It's at least an 18,000 gp cost


JJ Jordan wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Now if it was priced at 8000 gold flat price (which is the same as a +2 enhancement)
It's even higher because you have to have a +1 weapon to begin with. It's at least an 18,000 gp cost

I'm aware, I was stating what the value of a +2 enhancement bonus is and saying that would be a fair value to pay for it as a flat enhancement.


JJ Jordan wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
But it is "official" and gives us the price point that Paizo thinks it is worth for comparison.

Paizo messed up. It's a 4,000 gp value effect at a cost of 18,000 gp (at least).

It's probably a reaction to trying to balance out all the crazy ranged damage builds, forcing them to spend a turn casting abundant ammunition at higher levels or, alternatively, trading out the increased chance to hit or other special weapon abilities to not worry about arrow accounting.

Or your perception of the matter at hand is skewed and you are undervaluing it. Both are possibilities and the "truth" probably lays somewhere in between.

The custom magic item write ups, are GUIDELINES, not hard fast rules. You can't say with any amount of certainty that it is in fact "a 4000 gp value effect" because guidelines don't cover all the effects possible realistically. But then again you'd probably argue that the Ring of Truestrike is supposed to a ridiculously low price due to the guidelines as well using your current logic.

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