And I see Hold Person as a spell that completely neutralizes an opponent temporarily, not one that allows for a free kill.It's more of a balance issue than anything. The additional save wouldn't break the effect, just prevent it from being exploited in a specific but devastating manner.My disconnect with you is that you see this as an exploit, and I see it as what this spell is for.
Otherwise it'd inflict Dazed or Stunned or something that didn't make you helpless.
Then I would say your disconnect with everyone else is a problem of reading comprehension.
You have decided Hold Person is something other than what the rules clearly say it is..
It's not as good now as it was in 3.0 and earlier. It's balanced fine the way it is. It's certainly not the spell of its level I'd most fear.
If you must, just go ahead and ban Coup de Grace from your games and go ahead and make the Hold spells a level or two lower each so someone might possibly ever cast them. But you're fixing something that isn't broken and, frankly, your game isn't one I'd want to play in.
I don't see why any effect that renders you helpless should allow you an instant cdg attempt at any level. Spells designed to kill you are what should be 'save or die'.
You could also state that the act of tying somebody up qualifies as 'rendering them helpless'.
Good input though, I like it.
I'm fully aware that the devs won't accept my suggestion. This thread allows me to flesh out my idea for use towards my own purposes.
It's not an instant CdG effect. The couper still has to take a full round action. They still have to eat the AoO or position themselves somewhere that they won't be taking them (possibly spreading that full-round across 2 rounds in so doing). And that still has to be the best option available to them in the heat of battle.
And the reason that any effect which renders the target helpless allows an "instant" CdG attempt is that that is the very purpose of rendering somebody helpless. It's like saying you don't see why any effect which deals HP damage should allow you to instantly check to see if they are below 0 and fall unconscious and start bleeding. Or you don't see why an effect which causes the confused condition makes you "instantly" check to see whether you can act normally or if you attack randomly or if you just flail about uselessly for a round.
Any idea how you would handle the reducing somebody's dex to 0 aspect of helpless as regards non coup-de-grace attacks? Or effects which render someone helpless which aren't given spell levels (slumber hex, tying up). Or how you would handle a heightened HP? These are all things which WILL happen.
That's all well and good if you wouldn't want to play in my game.
I'm tired of saying the same things over and over.
Truth be told, I've lost sight of my original purpose. Instead of arguing the same thing to every new person who wanders in here, I'm going to focus on the important things.
If you have a problem with my changes, please post them so that I can further evolve my idea.
If you don't think anything needs changing, or just don't like my idea, your concern has been noted. Please review my previous posts and select an adequate response.
Fox, you can't get upset with people for looking at your question and your responses and saying "those aren't the rules." You posted this in the rules forum. I suggest you close the thread and open a new one in the homebrew forum, as those are the people you want to be talking to.
The only thing my change does is prevent a situation that allows a character to be instagibbed without regards to hp.
A character rendered helpless still has no effective dex. Fails ref saves, eats SA damage, ect.
Any effects that render a subject helpless would be affected by this rule, regardless of spell levels.
Wait, so now you're saying that if a level 10 fighter with, say, 80 hp left is put to sleep by Deep Slumber or a Witch's hex, or paralyzed by Hold Person, or just regularly sleeping, that a Coup de Grace shouldn't be able to be executed to kill him instantly? I'm not trying to be obtuse here; that sounds like what you're saying right here, which appears to be in contradiction to your earlier statements. If that's what you're saying, then basically you're looking to change the entire fundamental concept of Coup de Grace, which is to override the luck/roll with the punches concept of the game for characters unable to defend themselves (which, sorry, Hold Person instantly renders someone -- it's a magic spell and that is this spell's purpose.)
Ignoring low-level characters, a mid-level character with full hp, who could survive a salvo from two barbarians, could find himself suddenly dead, not dying, without being able to take a single action to prevent it.
I think that's a flaw in game mechanics.
The guy who can survive the two barbarians obviously has a bad will save, the guy with a good will save wont survive the two barabarians, so both are instant kill depending on opponent, you havent shown one to be worse then the other. Fighter dies to hold person+cdg, wizard dies to barbarian full attackx2.
Unless its a paladin then neither tactic will save you....
Wait, so now you're saying that if a level 10 fighter with, say, 80 hp left is put to sleep by Deep Slumber or a Witch's hex, or paralyzed by Hold Person, or just regularly sleeping, that a Coup de Grace shouldn't be able to be executed to kill him instantly? I'm not trying to be obtuse here; that sounds like what you're saying right here, which appears to be in contradiction to your earlier statements. If that's what you're saying, then basically you're looking to change the entire fundamental concept of Coup de Grace, which is to override the luck/roll with the punches concept of the game for characters unable to defend themselves (which, sorry, Hold Person instantly renders someone -- it's a magic spell and that is this spell's purpose.)The only thing my change does is prevent a situation that allows a character to be instagibbed without regards to hp.
A character rendered helpless still has no effective dex. Fails ref saves, eats SA damage, ect.
Any effects that render a subject helpless would be affected by this rule, regardless of spell levels.
No, what he is saying is that he wants to create a houserule which says any magic (or supernatural) effect which renders a character instantly helpless does not leave them open to a coup de grace until one full round has passed since the casting of the spell. After that, they are fully vulnerable to coup de grace. If you hold and they fail their 2nd save, then you can CdG. If you sleep and they aren't awoken, you can CdG. If you come across them already naturally asleep, you can CdG.
Fox, you should put a post explicitly asking for this thread to be closed.
