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So we have a Polearm Master in our group.
The guy wields a Keen Fauchard. +25 to hit, 15-20 threat zone, +33 to his trip attempts on attacks of opportunity or prepared attacks.
- Can you critical hit with a combat maneuver ? (Our stance right now is "yes", and you can use the threat range of a weapon with the appropriate property when making the maneuver attack roll - or else, like for grapple which is it's own weapon, you need a natural 20.)
- More important = must you confirm the threat, to auto-hit with a combat maneuver ; or is the confirmed hit from being a critical threat enough to confirm a trip attempt on a natural 16 from the polearm master, even against a creature with crazy CMD ?
- Can you confirm a critical threat by rolling into your critical zone again ?
My next character will soon be resurrected from the previous campaign. Level 12 s&b vanilla Fighter/1 vanilla Paladin, using a +2 keen scimitar and a +5 light shield, +1 defending spiked (with Shield Master, this becomes effectively a +5 weapon ; or when needed, a +5 shield giving up to +6 to AC +5 from defending, so +11 to AC from the shield alone by giving up to-hit and damage bonuses).
I intended during the first 11 levels to take Bashing Finish (from feat retraining at level 12), which gives a free shield bash when you land a critical hit.
- Must I confirm the critical hit to get a free shield bash ? Technically, hitting in the threat zone is only this - a threat. If I understand the rules, a critical hit is when you confirm this threat.
I'm asking this since Smiting evil with two-weapon fighting + free attacks from criticals + silver bracelet + potentially sick AC will tear appart some baddies, and I intend not to have too much attacks just because I misinterpreted the rules.
Thanks in advance for your insight !
- Can you confirm a critical threat by rolling into your critical zone again ?
My take on it is that you can't get a critical hit or threat on a combat maneuver. Critical hits are listed under the Attack action, a combat maneuver is in place of an attack or is a standard action. It isn't really an attack because you use CMD instead of AC.
- More important = must you confirm the threat, to auto-hit with a combat maneuver ; or is the confirmed hit from being a critical threat enough to confirm a trip attempt on a natural 16 from the polearm master, even against a creature with crazy CMD ?
With a combat maneuver you only get an auto success with a natural 20--no threat, no confirmation required. You roll a natural 20 you win.
Can you confirm a critical threat by rolling into your critical zone again ??
No. Just to be clear, rolling two threats in a row is never automatically a hit or a critical hit with a normal attack or a combat maneuver. Only natural 20's auto hit (or auto success) regardless of threat range.
- Must I confirm the critical hit to get a free shield bash ? Technically, hitting in the threat zone is only this - a threat. If I understand the rules, a critical hit is when you confirm this threat.
Yes. A critical hit is a critical hit and a critical threat is nothing if you don't confirm the hit.
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Thanks for the input !
Wow, this actually makes a lot of sense. Seeing that a keen fauchard could auto-trip a dragon 1 time out of 4 always bugged me. I guess the fact you add your bonuses to attack to your trip attempts made with a weapon with the trip property tricked me into believing this applied to the threat zone too. (Also, the fact my 32 AC fighter could be easily crit-confirmed on a natural 15 with the last, low BAB iterative attack of an enemy was always painful.)
This is gonna make some people unhappy (hello magus with keen rapier and fighter with keen fauchard/scimitar !), and confirms that even when you believe you are a rule lawyer, there is always something to learn... again.
Lots of fun coming when I'll explain this in the next game. Glad I took the feat to gain +4 to confirm a critical, TWF + PA is ugly for your BAB, even with a light off-hand weapon. :D
What would be the effect of a critical success on a grapple or trip attempt anyway?
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What would be the effect of a critical success on a grapple or trip attempt anyway?
Well, a success.
To use a simple example, let's say you are 20th level, and suddenly a level 4 rookie comes to kill the hell out of your demi-divine butt. At least, he wants to do so.
He's found himself a +1 keen fauchard, and rolls a natural 15 + 7 on his trip attempt against your 48 CMD.
Now you have the rest of your life dealing with the fact your evil pals will laugh at you for having been tripped by a guy too young to have seen what a vorpal sword looks like.
Why would you think that an combat maneuver roll result of 22 (15+7) would succeed against a 48 CMD?
Getting a die roll that falls in the critical threat range of your weapon does not mean you attack automatically hits. Not for combat maneuvers, and not for normal attack rolls. Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. I think you should reread the rules on critical hits.
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Why would you think that an combat maneuver roll result of 22 (15+7) would succeed against a 48 CMD?
Getting a die roll that falls in the critical threat range of your weapon does not mean you attack automatically hits. Not for combat maneuvers, and not for normal attack rolls. Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. I think you should reread the rules on critical hits.
... this is why I opened this thread, and if you look on the previous posts, you'll understand that we thought using weapons with (combat maneuver) property also allowed you to use the weapon's threat range to crit with combat maneuvers attacks.
Tim (that some call like this, it seems) clarified these rules for me, hence the natural-15-on-a-trip-against-level-20-character example. :)
Even if you could use the threat range on combat maneuver rolls, a roll ion the threat range is still not an automatic hit.
You would not hit an AC 48 with your +1 keen fauchard on a roll of 15 with your +7 bonus either. A "natural 15" is NEVER an automatic hit, no matter what threat range you have.
Why would you think that an combat maneuver roll result of 22 (15+7) would succeed against a 48 CMD?
Getting a die roll that falls in the critical threat range of your weapon does not mean you attack automatically hits. Not for combat maneuvers, and not for normal attack rolls. Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. I think you should reread the rules on critical hits.
... this is why I opened this thread, and if you look on the previous posts, you'll understand that we thought using weapons with (combat maneuver) property also allowed you to use the weapon's threat range to crit with combat maneuvers attacks.
Tim (that some call like this, it seems) clarified these rules for me, hence the natural-15-on-a-trip-against-level-20-character example. :)
Apparently, I didn't clarify the rules enough.
As I said above, a natural 20 is an automatic hit. It does not matter what the threat range is.
Repeat after me: "Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit."
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Even if you could use the threat range on combat maneuver rolls, a roll ion the threat range is still not an automatic hit.
You would not hit an AC 48 with your +1 keen fauchard on a roll of 15 with your +7 bonus either. A "natural 15" is NEVER an automatic hit, no matter what threat range you have.
... double fun on the next session !
So I read the critical hit rules again, to find out this pearl = "In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit."Suddenly, my 32 AC fighter doesn't look anymore like a glass cannon full of holes against high threat-range weapons. My fellow players will stop laughing at my Imperial General s&b fighter.
We were playing it the wrong way since soon 7 years ! 8D
Edit : Oh, hey, question then !
- Let's say you roll a natural 15 with your keen rapier. This is a threat, but not an automatic hit, 'k ?
If you could have hit the enemy's AC with your natural 15 + your attack bonus, do you need to reroll to confirm the threat ? What happens if you fail the reroll ? You hit the guy anyway but not with a crit ?
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for like a year, back when 3.0 first came out my friends and I thought that you threatened an AoO by "stepping within" a creature's threat range, not just "moving through". Thus all our combats had people moving just close enough to be able to take a 5 foot step, or some other maneuver to force an AoO from an opponent trying to get into melee range.
Then we figured it out later when an FAQ on AoO was posted on the WotC site. These things happen, I guess.
- Let's say you roll a natural 15 with your keen rapier. This is a threat, but not an automatic hit, 'k ?
If you could have hit the enemy's AC with your natural 15 + your attack bonus, do you need to reroll to confirm the threat ? What happens if you fail the reroll ? You hit the guy anyway but not with a crit ?
Yes.
If the 15 hits, then it's a threat. You roll to confirm. If you don't hit on the confirmation roll, it doesn't confirm.
- Let's say you roll a natural 15 with your keen rapier. This is a threat, but not an automatic hit, 'k ?
If you could have hit the enemy's AC with your natural 15 + your attack bonus, do you need to reroll to confirm the threat ? What happens if you fail the reroll ? You hit the guy anyway but not with a crit ?
Say you got a +1 BAB and a +1 keen rapier.
You're fighting AC 18.
You roll a 15 (+2) = 17. You miss. The threat doesn't matter.
You roll a 17 (+2) = 19. You hit. You roll again for confirmation. You roll a 15 (+2) = 17, you don't confirm. You do normal damage.
You roll a 17 (+2) = 19. You hit. You roll again for confirmation. You roll a 16 (+2) = 18, you confirm. You do twice normal damage (x2 multiplier).
You're fighting AC 23
You roll a 19 (+2) = 21. You miss. The threat doesn't matter.
You roll a natural 20. It doesn't matter that 20 (+2) = 22 and would normally miss. You automatically hit. You roll again for confirmation. You roll a 19 (+2) = 21, you don't confirm. You do normal damage.
You roll a natural 20. It doesn't matter that 20 (+2) = 22 and would normally miss. You automatically hit. You roll again for confirmation. You roll another natural 20. It doesn't matter that 20 (+2) = 22 and would normally miss. You automatically hit. You do double damage (x2 multiplier).
We were playing it the wrong way since soon 7 years ! 8D
Must have the same regular group. I know others have read the rules that way, but seven years might be a new record. ;-)
It helps to see how others interpret the rules.
Paizo messageboards = best forumz evar.
The forums here are very good. But as with anything you read on the Internet check the veracity of everything said. Just because we said something, you shouldn't assume we are correct, go back and reread the specific sections yourself. Random Internet posts are about as reliable as a Magic 8 Ball.
You're gonna have to convince the rest of your group too. So, make sure you can show them the appropriate sections in the rulebook.
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The forums here are very good. But as with anything you read on the Internet check the veracity of everything said. Just because we said something, you shouldn't assume we are correct, go back and reread the specific sections yourself. Random Internet posts are about as reliable as a Magic 8 Ball.
You're gonna have to convince the rest of your group too. So, make sure you can show them the appropriate sections in the rulebook.
Oh, I checked, I checked - and you are right.
These are the kind of rules you read with only one eye and two neurons, being already persuaded you know them and you are losing your time, dammit.Thankfully, my group isn't made of jerks, and we tend to be willing to play by the rules as long as they make perfect sense. This is not the first time we have to nerf or boost some details we played wrong all long, even though this has been a long time since we did a mistake so obvious.
It's not like I myself will not be concerned by these changes, this will help them gulping the pill ; and I'm pretty sure even our polearm master will survive through this. It's not like he hasn't a +32 already to opportunity trip attempts.