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Regeneration vs. Constitution damage


Rules Questions

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16 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Simple question: can a creature with regeneration die from Constitution damage?

Here are the rules (emphasis added by me):

PRD wrote:

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

So, what do you think, which ability "wins"?


Constitution - or 0 means there is no regen. Con 0 also means death. Bye bye little troll all your days of dining on humans is over.

edit:you forgot to highlight-->A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

Constitution - or 0 means there is no regen. Con 0 also means death. Bye bye little troll all your days of dining on humans is over.

edit:you forgot to highlight-->A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

wraithstrike, that part is irrelevant to my questions. A creature that doesn't have a constitution score, yes, cannot have regeneration, but it is obviously also immune to Constitution damage.

Also, getting Constitution damage does not reduce your Constitution score in any way in Pathfinder. And even if this were the case (ability drain does that, for example), having a Constitution score of 0 is not the same as having NO Constitution score at all.


Zaister wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Constitution - or 0 means there is no regen. Con 0 also means death. Bye bye little troll all your days of dining on humans is over.

edit:you forgot to highlight-->A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

wraithstrike, that part is irrelevant to my questions. A creature that doesn't have a constitution score, yes, cannot have regeneration, but it is obviously also immune to Constitution damage.

Also, getting Constitution damage does not reduce your Constitution score in any way in Pathfinder. And even if this were the case (ability drain does that, for example), having a Constitution score of 0 is not the same as having NO Constitution score at all.

You must have an ability score of 1 to benefit from it at all. Being drained to 0 Con kills anyway. Regeneration does not protect you from con drain/damage.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.<---Also in the regen section.

Regen only covers hp damage. Death by other means is not negated.


Zaister wrote:

Simple question: can a creature with regeneration die from Constitution damage?

Personally, I'd probably go with a middle of the road solution. The creature doesn't die at 0 con, despite the rule...until they're even threatened by something that bypasses their regeneration. An attack roll would normally be made, then they die instantly.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Here's a related question then.

Does Regeneration stop bleed damage? What about ability damage bleed?


Steev42 wrote:
Zaister wrote:

Simple question: can a creature with regeneration die from Constitution damage?

Personally, I'd probably go with a middle of the road solution. The creature doesn't die at 0 con, despite the rule...until they're even threatened by something that bypasses their regeneration. An attack roll would normally be made, then they die instantly.

Con does bypass regeneration since it kills no matter many hp you have. Now if you were suggesting a house rule that is a different story.


FallofCamelot wrote:

Here's a related question then.

Does Regeneration stop bleed damage? What about ability damage bleed?

By the rules no, but I don't think it is too far fetched to rule otherwise.

By the rules it takes magical healing or a skill check.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Con does bypass regeneration since it kills no matter many hp you have. Now if you were suggesting a house rule that is a different story.

But then Regenerations say the creature cannot die. I think it should, yes, but it's not really clear form the way the rules are worded.


Zaister wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Con does bypass regeneration since it kills no matter many hp you have. Now if you were suggesting a house rule that is a different story.
But then Regenerations say the creature cannot die. I think it should, yes, but it's not really clear form the way the rules are worded.

That is not what it says. It never says you can't die, but what it does say is that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration".

The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
That is not what it says. It never says you can't die, but what it does say is that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration".

It says exactly that. Look at the text I bolded up there in the regeneration rules I quoted.


A regenerating creature _cannot die_. A specific supernatural ability is clearly more specific than the rules for ability scores (or all hell would break lose when discussing stuff that relates to bonuses of any kind).

Regeneration does NOT just work for hit point damage, it works for almost everything.

Now, Con - means it can't have regeneration, but Con 0 is a whole different thing. Implying that they should have the same status would mean getting reduced to 0 Cha doesn't just make you comatose - it makes you an object (since all creatures have a Cha score).

However, regeneration can only _heal_ hit point damage (and then again, there's some special cases where it can't). This is different. If a troll is reduced to -40 hit points through suffocation, it won't die - but regeneration won't heal it, so it has to be healed some other way (natural heal rate, spells, heal skill).

So RAW I think the rules are pretty unambigous. Regeneration means you can't die of constitution damage, but it won't heal the damage.

The weird thing though, is that death is the only state constitution damage induces, unlike hit points damage which also specifically causes unconsciousness - which is also true for str/dex/int/wis/cha damage, they all incapacitate the victim. Due to this, it seems Con damage is the LEAST effective ability damage type to kill/incapacitate a creature with regeneration (except 0 con means you get -5 hit points per dice, so more or less all creatures will have 1hp/hd after that, so you could more easily get it to "dying" through suffocation).

I think it's hard to determine if this is RAI. Regenerating creatures SHOULD be very, very hard to kill outside of their special weaknesses, and there's still other ways to kill them (magic jar as mentioned in the tarrasque thread) and certainly other ways to defeat them (throw'm in the ocean for example). If the largest piece doesn't contain lungs, it's hard for it NOT to suffocate.


wraithstrike wrote:


That is not what it says. It never says you can't die, but what it does say is that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration".

Two different sentences. It says you can't die, very clearly. "Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

Basically, regeneration does three things:
1. Makes you unkillable as long as it's active.
2. Causes you to regenerate hit points damage at a fixed rate. Your quote is in regards to that.
3. Sometimes causes your detatched limbs to regrow, though detatching limbs isn't a mechanical function in the game.


wraithstrike wrote:
The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.

Uh, Wraithstrike, you seems to be operating on 3.5 regeneration, not Pathfinder one. Currently Regeneration does not convert damage to nonlethal. It simply heals fixed amount of damage per turn, even damage from fire, acid or other sources - instead of being unhealeble those damage turn the regeneration off for single round (and thus give window of opportunity in which creature can die).

The Regeneration vs Constitution damage is again the problem of determining which rule is more general and which one is more specific. And currently has to be judged by GM on hand. Myself I say that death to Constitution damage is specific and overrides Regeneration can't die rule (which, in may opinion, should only prevent death from hp damage and not Constitution damage, death from shadow's strength drain, death effects and such, it also should not protect from death from suffocation because hp loss is additional effect of suffocation - three rounds after failed Con check victim of suffocation dies as an instant effect and not loss of hit points).


Stating two words without stating the 2nd paragraph, which is the part saying, regeneration does not get bypassed by harm inflicted to it by other means, is just seeing what you want to see.

What else could this mean?-->"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."

If the first bolded sentence is not a correct translation of the 2nd bolded sentence then what else could it mean?

edit:the first bold is my interpretation. the 2nd bolded sentence is quoted from the rules.


Drejk wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.

Uh, Wraithstrike, you seems to be operating on 3.5 regeneration, not Pathfinder one. Currently Regeneration does not convert damage to nonlethal. It simply heals fixed amount of damage per turn, even damage from fire, acid or other sources - instead of being unhealeble those damage turn the regeneration off for single round (and thus give window of opportunity in which creature can die).

The Regeneration vs Constitution damage is again the problem of determining which rule is more general and which one is more specific. And currently has to be judged by GM on hand. Myself I say that death to Constitution damage is specific and overrides Regeneration can't die rule (which, in may opinion, should only prevent death from hp damage and not Constitution damage, death from shadow's strength drain, death effects and such, it also should not protect from death from suffocation because hp loss is additional effect of suffocation - three rounds after failed Con check victim of suffocation dies as an instant effect and not loss of hit points).

Fair enough, but that still does not dispute the fact that regeneration does nothing to take care of Con 0 which does not care about hp and is addressed in my previous post.


wraithstrike wrote:

What else could this mean?-->"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."

If the first bolded sentence is not a correct translation of the 2nd bolded sentence then what else could it mean?

It means that if you have Regeneration 5, and take 12 constitution damage, you don't heal 5 constitution damage per turn. If a troll gets stuck underwater, it must make saves or be reduced to 0 hit points - this isn't damage, your hit points are just set to 0. This damage is NOT healed through regeneration.

After that, it gets to -1 and is unconscious and dying. After that, it would've died - but regeneration prevents that. Instead, it will stay there at -1 hit points, unconscious and unable to do anything, until someone heals it (or it naturally heals, regains consciousness, has a brief moment to try to get away, and upon failing drops to -1 again).


stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

What else could this mean?-->"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."

If the first bolded sentence is not a correct translation of the 2nd bolded sentence then what else could it mean?

It means that if you have Regeneration 5, and take 12 constitution damage, you don't heal 5 constitution damage per turn. If a troll gets stuck underwater, it must make saves or be reduced to 0 hit points - this isn't damage, your hit points are just set to 0. This damage is NOT healed through regeneration.

After that, it gets to -1 and is unconscious and dying. After that, it would've died - but regeneration prevents that. Instead, it will stay there at -1 hit points, unconscious and unable to do anything, until someone heals it (or it naturally heals, regains consciousness, has a brief moment to try to get away, and upon failing drops to -1 again).

You can't heal con damage because regen does not say you can. Why would a second sentence be need to say what the first one already said.

As for the 2nd one with the troll drowning I can see it stuck at 0 or even less, but since the hp can not be replenished by regen it is unclear as to whether that means the troll is stuck at -1 or it dies.
I will also add that drowning*(suffocation under water) is covered already in a previous sentence since it is no more than underwater suffocation.

*

prd wrote:
Drowning ...When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns. ... Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious...
PRD wrote:

Suffocation

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

So far the sentence I bolded still has not been addressed since it has nothing to do with suffocation or drowing, which have already been covered. I know I said it like 3 times, but I wanted to make sure it was not missed.


wraithstrike wrote:
Fair enough, but that still does not dispute the fact that regeneration does nothing to take care of Con 0 which does not care about hp and is addressed in my previous post.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your interpretation that reducing Constitution score to 0 will still kill regenerating creatures that lacks additional special abilities. The same I apply to death effects.


Drejk wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Fair enough, but that still does not dispute the fact that regeneration does nothing to take care of Con 0 which does not care about hp and is addressed in my previous post.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your interpretation that reducing Constitution score to 0 will still kill regenerating creatures that lacks additional special abilities. The same I apply to death effects.

I know. I just didn't want the opposing posters to think that my forgetting the nonlethal damage rule was missing meant they had a leg up. I am still waiting for them to explain that bolded section means.


wraithstrike wrote:


As for the 2nd one with the troll drowning I can see it stuck at 0 or even less, but since the hp can not be replenished by regen it is unclear as to whether that means the troll is stuck at -1 or it dies.

How is it unclear? Suffocation rules are more general than regeneration rules IMO, and the only place where the regeneration rules deal with death is right at the top where it clearly says that a creature with regeneration _cannot die_. It can't be more clear than that.

What overrides which is in this case a matter of what is more general/specific, and there are no clear-cut guidelines there ever, though I think suffocation is more general than the supernatural regeneration ability - but the regeneration rules themselves are pretty clear.


You must have a con score to have regeneration, so when con hits 0 regeneration stops working and then the creature dies. Simple enough.


VM mercenario wrote:
You must have a con score to have regeneration, so when con hits 0 regeneration stops working and then the creature dies. Simple enough.

Does that mean if my fighter is hit by a few doses of Ungol Dust poison and falls to charisma 0, he becomes an object, and can't be targeted by Restoration (that requires a living target)? Can he be targeted by Fabricate and turned into a flesh chair?

There's a world of difference between having Ability Score 0 and Ability Score -.


stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


As for the 2nd one with the troll drowning I can see it stuck at 0 or even less, but since the hp can not be replenished by regen it is unclear as to whether that means the troll is stuck at -1 or it dies.

How is it unclear? Suffocation rules are more general than regeneration rules IMO, and the only place where the regeneration rules deal with death is right at the top where it clearly says that a creature with regeneration _cannot die_. It can't be more clear than that.

What overrides which is in this case a matter of what is more general/specific, and there are no clear-cut guidelines there ever, though I think suffocation is more general than the supernatural regeneration ability - but the regeneration rules themselves are pretty clear.

You keep using those two words as if they are the only ones that matter. "Can't die" is not in a vacumn.

You still have yet to explain the bolded area. A troll can't die as long as the regeneration can keep it alive is basically what the first paragraph means. For the sake of argument and moving on lets say a drowned troll stays at -1 hp forever since the rules clearly state hp loss by such a method can not be healed by regeneration.

Now the topic is back to the sentence I bolded, and an alternate explanation to the one I gave.

Trolls are not immune to death effects(insta kill) so why would they be immune to Con 0 killing them which is a situation where meeting a condition also autokills you, and seems to fall in line with the bolded sentence.


wraithstrike wrote:


You keep using those two words as if they are the only ones that matter. "Can't die" is not in a vacumn.

You still have yet to explain the bolded area.

A troll can't die as long as the regeneration can keep it alive is basically what the first paragraph means.

It's not in vacuum, it's in the rules for what benefits regeneration grants. And it's the very first benefit, right after the fluff sentence.

No, it doesn't mean that, because that's a tautology/circular argument.

Quote:
Trolls are not immune to death effects(insta kill) so why would they be immune to Con 0 killing them which is a situation where meeting a condition also autokills you, and seems to fall in line with the bolded sentence.

I believe they are immune to death effects unless trolls have specific exceptions (was a while since I read their statblock). Regeneration by default gives immunity to instakill (unless you inactivate regeneration).

EDIT: Read the statblock. Only acid and fire are exceptions. So Acid Splash + Slay Living works, but not without the splash.


Drejk wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.
Uh, Wraithstrike, you seems to be operating on 3.5 regeneration, not Pathfinder one. Currently Regeneration does not convert damage to nonlethal. It simply heals fixed amount of damage per turn, even damage from fire, acid or other sources - instead of being unhealeble those damage turn the regeneration off for single round (and thus give window of opportunity in which creature can die).

Then can you ever kill a troll? You can turn the regeneration off for one round, but then the regeneration restarts and the troll comes back!


VM mercenario wrote:
You must have a con score to have regeneration, so when con hits 0 regeneration stops working and then the creature dies. Simple enough.

Nope. Not having ability score is different than having it at 0 (or any other value). Undeads and Constructs do not have Constitution scores and thus cannot have Regeneration.

Which, I think is one of the blunders of Pathfinder - in the previous iterations of 3rd edition it was connected with the fact that creatures without Constitution score were always immune to nonlethal damage and the Regeneration turned damage into nonlethal. As this is not the case in Pathfinder the must have Constitution clause serves no actual purpose and should be removed.


Cartigan wrote:
Drejk wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.
Uh, Wraithstrike, you seems to be operating on 3.5 regeneration, not Pathfinder one. Currently Regeneration does not convert damage to nonlethal. It simply heals fixed amount of damage per turn, even damage from fire, acid or other sources - instead of being unhealeble those damage turn the regeneration off for single round (and thus give window of opportunity in which creature can die).
Then can you ever kill a troll? You can turn the regeneration off for one round, but then the regeneration restarts and the troll comes back!

Yes. Regeneration makes no claim as to revive the already dead. Turn regeneration off, kill before it comes back up, and that's a dead troll for you.


stringburka wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
You must have a con score to have regeneration, so when con hits 0 regeneration stops working and then the creature dies. Simple enough.

Does that mean if my fighter is hit by a few doses of Ungol Dust poison and falls to charisma 0, he becomes an object, and can't be targeted by Restoration (that requires a living target)? Can he be targeted by Fabricate and turned into a flesh chair?

There's a world of difference between having Ability Score 0 and Ability Score -.

That is a 3.5 rule, and not in pathfinder that says lack of cha equals an object.


stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


You keep using those two words as if they are the only ones that matter. "Can't die" is not in a vacumn.

You still have yet to explain the bolded area.

A troll can't die as long as the regeneration can keep it alive is basically what the first paragraph means.

It's not in vacuum, it's in the rules for what benefits regeneration grants. And it's the very first benefit, right after the fluff sentence.

No, it doesn't mean that, because that's a tautology/circular argument.

Quote:
Trolls are not immune to death effects(insta kill) so why would they be immune to Con 0 killing them which is a situation where meeting a condition also autokills you, and seems to fall in line with the bolded sentence.

I believe they are immune to death effects unless trolls have specific exceptions (was a while since I read their statblock). Regeneration by default gives immunity to instakill (unless you inactivate regeneration).

EDIT: Read the statblock. Only acid and fire are exceptions. So Acid Splash + Slay Living works, but not without the splash.

My interpretation of those two bolded sentences seems on point. I did click the FAQ, but I am sticking with that definition unless someone gives me a better one.


stringburka wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Drejk wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The rules also say that Con 0 equals dead. Regeneration as written does not prevent that. It only prevents death by direct hp damage since it is converted to nonlethal damage, and you can't die from nonlethal damage.
Uh, Wraithstrike, you seems to be operating on 3.5 regeneration, not Pathfinder one. Currently Regeneration does not convert damage to nonlethal. It simply heals fixed amount of damage per turn, even damage from fire, acid or other sources - instead of being unhealeble those damage turn the regeneration off for single round (and thus give window of opportunity in which creature can die).
Then can you ever kill a troll? You can turn the regeneration off for one round, but then the regeneration restarts and the troll comes back!
Yes. Regeneration makes no claim as to revive the already dead. Turn regeneration off, kill before it comes back up, and that's a dead troll for you.

Except that is EXACTLY what we are arguing - regeneration prevents things from being killed, regardless of whether they are specifically immune to them. Ie, regeneration thwarts killing entirely. Stop killing effects of all kinds, bring people back from the dead, all the same thing.


stringburka wrote:
I believe they are immune to death effects unless trolls have specific exceptions (was a while since I read their statblock). Regeneration by default gives immunity to instakill (unless you inactivate regeneration).

If regeneration gives immunity to death effects and instant kill effects then the whole description of Tarrasque Regeneration is pointless.

Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

If your reading is correct that regeneration gives immunity to death effects then second bolded part is nosensical - it cannot raise from death because he wasn't dead in the first place.

Possible solution: there is no summary of death effects as such (or I haven't found it yet) so actually each death effect is specific separate effect that kills instantly, and thus overriding more generic Regeneration rule. So we again return to general, specific, more specific, even so more specific loop which is primary source of the confusion (and second being the text of Regeneration, which, I think misses four words - it would be more sensible to spearate Regeneration and immunity to death effects than force immunity to death effects as a part of Regeneration).


Drejk wrote:
stringburka wrote:
I believe they are immune to death effects unless trolls have specific exceptions (was a while since I read their statblock). Regeneration by default gives immunity to instakill (unless you inactivate regeneration).

If regeneration gives immunity to death effects and instant kill effects then the whole description of Tarrasque Regeneration is pointless.

Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

If your reading is correct that regeneration gives immunity to death effects then second bolded part is nosensical - it cannot raise from death because he wasn't dead in the first place.

Possible solution: there is no summary of death effects as such (or I haven't found it yet) so actually each death effect is specific separate effect that kills instantly, and thus overriding more generic Regeneration rule. So we again return to general, specific, more specific, even so more specific loop which is primary source of the confusion (and second being the text of Regeneration, which, I think misses four words - it would be more sensible to spearate Regeneration and immunity to death effects than force immunity to death effects as a part of Regeneration).

I was about to go there next. :) I doubt a troll can function when finger of death rips its soul out of its body. I don't see it regenerating from dust(disintegration), nor surviving after having its con reduced. Big T's listing of additional effects supports this.

If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains.
Note the bolded area is a general listing which would seen to include con damage.


wraithstrike wrote:
That is a 3.5 rule, and not in pathfinder that says lack of cha equals an object.

In PF it says "Every creature has a charisma score" (page 17 CRB). Restoration has "target: creature touched". If you don't have a charisma score, you can't be the target of restoration. Also note that if AbSc 0 and AbSc - where equal, creatures with Str -/0 naturally wouldn't be able to move, creatures that go from 1 to 0 in con would get a bump in fortitude saves from -5 to +0, and a whole bunch of other insane stuff.

AbSc - =! 0.

EDIT: When it comes to the tarrasque, it has specific rules that says it CAN die. Though I was surprised at this, the tarrasque regeneration stating it can die doesn't do anything to imply that's the baseline for regeneration. If it was, it wouldn't be needed. Death effects are the tarrasque's weakness, much like how acid is for trolls.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


That is not what it says. It never says you can't die, but what it does say is that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration".

Two different sentences. It says you can't die, very clearly. "Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

The last is the key right there. If constitution is knocked down to zero... regeneration no longer functions save for specific exceptions,i.e. Vampires, Liches reconstituting themselves.


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Cartigan wrote:
Stop killing effects of all kinds, bring people back from the dead, all the same thing.

No, these are not the same thing in any way. When you're dead you're dead, you're an object, and no abilities at all work. Arguing that "can't be killed" equals "revives if dead" is like arguing Protection from Elements heals inflicted elemental damage. It's not what it does, and it doesn't work retroactively.

Acid shuts down regeneration, during which time it can be killed (since regeneration doesn't work when inactive). When it's dead, it's abilities can't activate and it won't heal anything.


stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That is a 3.5 rule, and not in pathfinder that says lack of cha equals an object.

In PF it says "Every creature has a charisma score" (page 17 CRB). Restoration has "target: creature touched". If you don't have a charisma score, you can't be the target of restoration. Also note that if AbSc 0 and AbSc - where equal, creatures with Str -/0 naturally wouldn't be able to move, creatures that go from 1 to 0 in con would get a bump in fortitude saves from -5 to +0, and a whole bunch of other insane stuff.

AbSc - =! 0.

Good point. 3.5 had a that - and 0 were not the same so I guess that needs to be added in.

Your case about con 0 not being dead is still failing because of the Big T's entry, and the area I bolded which you have yet to explain. It also lines up the Big T entry.

Now going back to my interpretation of what I bolded from those two sentences, and the Big T entry which says there are other ways to kill things with regeneration what ways do you think those would include beside death effects?


LazarX wrote:


Two different sentences. It says you can't die, very clearly. "Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

The last is the key right there. If constitution is knocked down to zero... regeneration no longer functions save for specific exceptions,i.e. Vampires, Liches reconstituting themselves.

Do you have any rules support for that? Regeneration only requires a constitution score AFAIK, not a value of 1 or greater. Just like restoration requires the target to have a charisma score, not 1 or greater.

EDIT: I'm feeling more and more sure that you are right RAI - I don't think regeneration was _intended_ to be "immune to death". However, I stand by that RAW it _does_ grant immunity to death, unambigously, and that only general vs. specific rulings can override that.


LazarX wrote:
stringburka wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


That is not what it says. It never says you can't die, but what it does say is that "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration".

Two different sentences. It says you can't die, very clearly. "Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

The last is the key right there. If constitution is knocked down to zero... regeneration no longer functions save for specific exceptions,i.e. Vampires, Liches reconstituting themselves.

Vampires have fast healing which does not require constitution, and liches dont have the regeneration special ability.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stringburka wrote:


Do you have any rules support for that?

Yes...the rule that says Constitution Zero equals DEAD.


LazarX wrote:
stringburka wrote:


Do you have any rules support for that?
Yes...the rule that says Constitution Zero equals DEAD.

But the rules also say Hit Points -Con equals DEAD. Both are overridden by "a creature with regeneration cannot die as long as it's regeneration is active". I thought you were getting at Con 0 negating regeneration, but apparently I was wrong.

Taldor

I came into this late and the OP makes an interesting point. I see some of the counter arguments are confusing damage with drain though. In a logical progression I see it like this:

1)Constitution damage does NOT make your Con 0. It instaed says when you take damage equal or greater than your Con score you die.

2)NO constitution score means Con:-, Having a 0 Con or even a negative Con is still having a Con score.

3)To answer Cartigan's original point, it says that you can not die while you have regeneration active, therefore you can kill a creature when it's regen is off. And since a dead creature is now a corpse, it has no Con score(because it is now an object) and its regen can not be turned back on (unless it is a Tarrasque which has special rules).

4)The 0 Con rule is a specific case and IMO over rules the cannot die rule of regen.

Based on those four points, I would say that Con damage does not kill a creature with active regen, but Con drain does.

Taldor

To further illustrate the difference between drain and damage, If I have a 14 Strength and take 2 points of Str damage, I DO NOT lose the use of my Power Attack feat per RAW and RAI. If I take 2 points of Str drain, then I do lose the use of the feat as per RAW and RAI.
If damage does not remove the prereq. of ability score for feats, then why would it remove the prereq. for special abilities?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Galahad0430 wrote:

To further illustrate the difference between drain and damage, If I have a 14 Strength and take 2 points of Str damage, I DO NOT lose the use of my Power Attack feat per RAW and RAI. If I take 2 points of Str drain, then I do lose the use of the feat as per RAW and RAI.

If damage does not remove the prereq. of ability score for feats, then why would it remove the prereq. for special abilities?

But it does. If you lose Str below 13, you lose power attack and everything dependent upon it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stringburka wrote:
LazarX wrote:
stringburka wrote:


Do you have any rules support for that?
Yes...the rule that says Constitution Zero equals DEAD.
But the rules also say Hit Points -Con equals DEAD. Both are overridden by "a creature with regeneration cannot die as long as it's regeneration is active". I thought you were getting at Con 0 negating regeneration, but apparently I was wrong.

Those statements do not SPECIFICALLY override the rule of what happens in ability score loss. The hit point rule is for ordinary death, but what happens with actual attribute loss over rules anything ordinarly such as regeneration.


Galahad0430 wrote:

I came into this late and the OP makes an interesting point. I see some of the counter arguments are confusing damage with drain though. In a logical progression I see it like this:

1)Constitution damage does NOT make your Con 0. It instaed says when you take damage equal or greater than your Con score you die.

2)NO constitution score means Con:-, Having a 0 Con or even a negative Con is still having a Con score.

3)To answer Cartigan's original point, it says that you can not die while you have regeneration active, therefore you can kill a creature when it's regen is off. And since a dead creature is now a corpse, it has no Con score(because it is now an object) and its regen can not be turned back on (unless it is a Tarrasque which has special rules).

4)The 0 Con rule is a specific case and IMO over rules the cannot die rule of regen.

Based on those four points, I would say that Con damage does not kill a creature with active regen, but Con drain does.

1. That is incorrect.
prd wrote:
If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.

4. Would you like to explain those sentences I highlighted before, and would you like to explain how to kill something with regen besides hp damage?


LazarX wrote:
Galahad0430 wrote:

To further illustrate the difference between drain and damage, If I have a 14 Strength and take 2 points of Str damage, I DO NOT lose the use of my Power Attack feat per RAW and RAI. If I take 2 points of Str drain, then I do lose the use of the feat as per RAW and RAI.

If damage does not remove the prereq. of ability score for feats, then why would it remove the prereq. for special abilities?
But it does. If you lose Str below 13, you lose power attack and everything dependent upon it.

Galahad is correct. Strength damage doesn't lower your Strength score, it adds a penalty. This is new to pathfinder and a change from 3.5. Sorry for the confusing use of AbSc damage above, I meant drain.

EDIT: How to kill something with regeneration is by removing regeneration out of the equation. For a troll, Acid Splash or a bottle of Alchemist Fire removes it, as well as baleful polymorph or some other spells. Flesh to Stone will turn it into stone (albeit not killing it) and then you can just keep it around until you find some way to kill it, like an open fireplace.

Note that all creatures with regeneration has one or more weaknesses and can be killed, and from what I know, only the big T can revive from that.


stringburka wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Galahad0430 wrote:

To further illustrate the difference between drain and damage, If I have a 14 Strength and take 2 points of Str damage, I DO NOT lose the use of my Power Attack feat per RAW and RAI. If I take 2 points of Str drain, then I do lose the use of the feat as per RAW and RAI.

If damage does not remove the prereq. of ability score for feats, then why would it remove the prereq. for special abilities?
But it does. If you lose Str below 13, you lose power attack and everything dependent upon it.

Galahad is correct. Strength damage doesn't lower your Strength score, it adds a penalty. This is new to pathfinder and a change from 3.5. Sorry for the confusing use of AbSc damage above, I meant drain.

EDIT: How to kill something with regeneration is by removing regeneration out of the equation. For a troll, Acid Splash or a bottle of Alchemist Fire removes it, as well as baleful polymorph or some other spells. Flesh to Stone will turn it into stone (albeit not killing it) and then you can just keep it around until you find some way to kill it, like an open fireplace.

Note that all creatures with regeneration has one or more weaknesses and can be killed, and from what I know, only the big T can revive from that.

Big T's exceptions to normal regen highly suggest if not outright state that bypassing, as opposed to shutting regen down can be done.


stringburka wrote:
Note that all creatures with regeneration has one or more weaknesses and can be killed, and from what I know, only the big T can revive from that.

James Jacobs?

Hopelfuly some of the rule developers will share his insight about the RAI behind the PF Regeneration - was it intended as protection from all or just as protection from actual hp damage.

I know what path I will pick while GMing, but revealing RAI might at least lead to errata/FAQ that will end arguments about Regeneration, Constitution damage and death effects. Well, we'll have to find another reason to bicker among ourselves instead of taking over the world <maniac laughter>.


Zaister wrote:

Simple question: can a creature with regeneration die from Constitution damage?

Here are the rules (emphasis added by me):

PRD wrote:

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.

...

Okay, taking the Troll example:

A stock troll has 63 HP, with a 23 CON (+6 modifier) and 6 HD. Reducing a Troll's CON score from 23 to 1 (because 0 isn't listed on the chart, because it's supposed to be "Dead"), causes an 11 point "swing" in Hit Points, per Hit Die. I think it's safe to assume that a CON of 0 would still have at least a -5 HP adjustment.

This totals a 66 point reduction in HP, due to having a lowered CON score. This is not damage. This is the effect of having a lower CON.

This also brings our stock troll to -3 HP, when having a CON score of 0. There has been no "Hit Point Damage" dealt in this scenario, so there's nothing for Regeneration to heal.

While it's not necessarily strict RAW that the troll would be dead at this point, I'd say that being dead twice, through means that circumvent the intended use of Regeneration (by reducing CON to 0, as well as reducing HP to at least 3 less than CON without dealing HP damage) it's fair to say that, by RAI, troll is dead.

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