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Well, my google-fu has failed me yet again, so I put forth this query to the masses;
Whilst looking over the Craft Construct feat detailed in the Bestiary, and comparing notes with the info in AP #43 [Haunting of Harowstone] & Ultimate Magic [p111], I find myself with a few questions regarding the creation of animated objects via the Craft Construct feat.
#1 --> Where the devil does it list the minimum caster level to create an animated object of a given CR or HD? Is it tied to the animate object spell? If so, does that mean that nobody short of epic characters can ever animate a Colossal object?
Well, okay . . . that's really just one question, but it's a bit of a thinker [for me, at least]. Ultimate magic did nothing to expand upon or clarify the base construct crafting rules; it simply gave you more goodies to add to constructs, and that's all well and good. I'd like some hard-and-fast rules for building the buggers, though.
Entry in UM:
Animated Objects
Not all constructs are built with the Craft Construct feat. Spells like animate objects allow a caster to temporarily animate an existing object. These constructs are in many ways weaker than manufactured constructs, as they are susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.
A caster can use the animate objects spell to instantly create a temporary construct. A permanency spell cast upon an animated object makes the construct permanent; however, it can still be dispelled or suppressed by antimagic. Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic. The CR of a potential animated object depends on its size and abilities, as explained in the animated object entry.
Animated Object
CL 11th; Price as determined by CR
Construction
Requirements Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency; Skill Spellcraft or appropriate Craft skill; Cost 1/2 price
So, are all varieties of animated objects available to an 11th-level caster with the appropriate feat? Craft DC+5 for not having animate objects on the wizard list, of course. If CL 11 is the only caster requirement, can I animate a Colossal object, which would normally exceed the limits of the spell, because I'm not using the spell?
I noticed a thread about this that popped up in the Spring, but nothing ever came of it. Perhaps I'm over-thinking this, but I really would appreciate some clarification here. Gotta get to work on my Iron Golem Man suit . . .
A bit more patience serves very well.
Crafting an animated object isn't the same as simply casting the spell animated object. Much like there is a difference between casting bull's strength and making a belt of strength +2.
As such when crafting an animated object you should abide by what is provided as far as caster level requirements go (please note you could choose not to but then you increase the DC of the check just like any other magical item).
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Thanks for the response, Abraham; been rather impatient lately. Must be that efreeti bloodline acting up again . . .
So, lemme see if I've got this right; Say I decide to try for the Colossal animated object [normally CL 32 per the spell] at level 12:
Spellcraft / Craft DC: 5[base DC]+5[no animate objects spell]+32[default caster level a la spell]=42
Should be doable with some careful skill/spell selection . . .
-OR-
DC= 5[base]+5[no spell]+11[CL listed in UM entry]= 21?
That 42 sounds about right for trying to animate an entire ship [colossal object]. Of course, should I need to, I can just DM-fiat whatever I need the adventure to have, but I may want to do something like this as a player, and I likes me some solid rules with which I may defend my idea.
Note that if your DC is 42, you're likely going to ruin half your materials on the first failure (by more than 10). Even if you can make the target, failing has a high cost penalty.
Thanks for the response, Abraham; been rather impatient lately. Must be that efreeti bloodline acting up again . . .
So, lemme see if I've got this right; Say I decide to try for the Colossal animated object [normally CL 32 per the spell] at level 12:
Spellcraft / Craft DC: 5[base DC]+5[no animate objects spell]+32[default caster level a la spell]=42
Should be doable with some careful skill/spell selection . . .
-OR-
DC= 5[base]+5[no spell]+11[CL listed in UM entry]= 21?That 42 sounds about right for trying to animate an entire ship [colossal object]. Of course, should I need to, I can just DM-fiat whatever I need the adventure to have, but I may want to do something like this as a player, and I likes me some solid rules with which I may defend my idea.
Well... there aren't any good rules to go by currently but what you have there looks about right (except where it's wrong see following). As far as I know the caster level from UM for a colossal animated object is based on its hit dice -- so a colossal with 13 hit dice would require a caster level 13.
That's for using craft construct to make the object instead of simply permanency and the animate object spell.
The biggest problem with UM's construct rules is the fact it tells you to reference page 14 of the bestiary for rules on crafting animated objects -- rules that are completely lacking for a systematic approach (using either the spell or the feat) for a player (or GM) to use in animating objects.
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That brings another element into it; the cost. If I've already got the base item [in this case, a sailing ship], does the cost to animate it include the price of the ship in the figures, or just the raw reagents?
A sailing ship costs 10000gp [per Ultimate Combat]. The price for the finished item is a flat 60000gp, and the cost to animate it, based on the Ultimate Magic table is 30000gp. If I've already got the ship in question, does that come out of the base price, thus making the final animation cost 25000gp?
Heck, that caster level thing is bugging me a bit still, because in AP #43 it says the CL to create an animated object is equal to its HD, which would be 13 in the case of the sailing ship. UM doesn't give any caster level requirements, but does list the CR of the construct [in this case, 11]. That'd put my animated sailing ship at CL 13, Craft DC 23[13+5+5], and a final price of 29000gp for the whole shebang, crafting cost of 14500gp.
I know newer material usually trumps older material, but in this case the older material gives a more complete ruling, while the newer material doesn't even mention the older material. Plus, the older material is cheaper.
Dang; I think I'm just gonna use the stuff printed in the adventure path. It makes my head hurt less.
You should probably refer to the Ultimate Magic chapter on Building & Modifying Constructs. They go into more detail, and give examples and prices.
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Ultimate Magic does add some detail, but glosses over things like Caster Level, unless it means to say that all animated objects have a CL of 11th. Plus, the costs for animated objects only take the end result into account, and not the base item that's being animated. The rules in AP #43 account for that cost. Plus, the way the "ranged attack" entry reads there actually lets you animate siege engines that can actually attack things. The Ultimate Magic version has a range increment of 20ft. That's one crappy animated catapult, if it has to use that range increment.
I think the devs might ought to take a look at what they put in the AP and reevaluate the rules they put in UM, based on that. The adventure path version makes the creation of animated objects somewhat useful, whereas the version in UM is way too much to pay for something without the awesome abilities of golems. Animated objects have no inherent abilities beyond the construct type and whatever can be paid for with their CPs, whereas golems get immunity to magic and other nifty abilities well worth the extra cost.
I have a more basic question, if you pardon the necro:
What use is a permanent animated object (whether via craft construct or the spell + Permanency)? According to the spell description it attacks the thing you designate when first animated... and that's it. Do they become more like Golems in terms of giving orders to do whatever you feel like if you're in line of sight etc, or are they just attack that. now attack that. now attack that. etc etc. I mean, can you order them to follow you even?
I ask because a player at my table wants to make a nice stone statue of a megaraptor, then animate it using craft construct (taking the DC penalties for not having the relevant spells) with a few extra attacks but basically he just wants to use it to ride around on because he thinks its more wizardly and seemly for an Elf of the Mordant Spire than some dirty old nag. Its also cheap, and the party aren't exactly rolling in cash at the moment.
He'd rather make a true golem but the rules on that are... highly arcane if you're not trying to replicate a pre statted construct. Animated Object constructs on the other hand are pretty easy to stat and can have some nifty extras through the straightforward CP/CR system, so I was going to steer him that route.. then it occurred to me he might not be able to order it to do anything but attack stuff. Which will be a bit useless for riding!
Any clues anywhere?
Re caster level - I assume it is CL11 as the base for the craft test because that's the lowest level cleric which could cast the spell. That would cover animating up to a Huge object. Next one up would be gargantuan which would require CL16 on that same cleric (or a L16 bard who just got the spell), making it a CL16 base number for the craft construct test.
In my players case he only wants a Large object, which only needs CL4. However, you need min level 11 to cast the spell if you have it, therefore the CL can go for the craft test is still base 11, +5 for not having animate objects, +5 for not having permanency, +5 for the CR of the creature (or more if he exceeds the free construction points) giving him a DC of 26 to actually pull it off.
That's my understanding anyway.
If so, then back to my original question because that DC seems pretty high for a mere CR5 construct that can then only be ordered to attack stuff and not move around, or head in such and such a direction, or lie down, or whatever.
So... if this isn't covered in the rules anywhere (I've spent like four hours searching and collating in my books and online), does a houserule regarding it being able to be ordered about in the same way as a standard golem be reasonable?
I have a more basic question, if you pardon the necro:
What use is a permanent animated object (whether via craft construct or the spell + Permanency)?
According to the SRD, you need the spells both ways, but the crafting rules let you bypass them for a DC increase.
According to the spell description it attacks the thing you designate when first animated... and that's it.
That is what happens with the spell. The construct is not the spell, so is not obliged to follow it exactly. Give it some intelligence, and it can think for itself.
Do they become more like Golems in terms of giving orders to do whatever you feel like if you're in line of sight etc, or are they just attack that. now attack that. now attack that. etc etc. I mean, can you order them to follow you even?
I ask because a player at my table wants to make a nice stone statue of a megaraptor, then animate it using craft construct (taking the DC penalties for not having the relevant spells) with a few extra attacks but basically he just wants to use it to ride around on because he thinks its more wizardly and seemly for an Elf of the Mordant Spire than some dirty old nag. Its also cheap, and the party aren't exactly rolling in cash at the moment.
The Megaraptor has 4HD. Using the Alternative Creation Rules, that makes the CL=4, with modifiers for HD changes he makes.
He'd rather make a true golem but the rules on that are... highly arcane if you're not trying to replicate a pre statted construct. Animated Object constructs on the other hand are pretty easy to stat and can have some nifty extras through the straightforward CP/CR system, so I was going to steer him that route.. then it occurred to me he might not be able to order it to do anything but attack stuff. Which will be a bit useless for riding!
Any clues anywhere?
Check out Homunculus Construction.
Re caster level - I assume it is CL11 as the base for the craft test because that's the lowest level cleric which could cast the spell. That would cover animating up to a Huge object. Next one up would be gargantuan which would require CL16 on that same cleric (or a L16 bard who just got the spell), making it a CL16 base number for the craft construct test.
In my players case he only wants a Large object, which only needs CL4. However, you need min level 11 to cast the spell if you have it, therefore the CL can go for the craft test is still base 11, +5 for not having animate objects, +5 for not having permanency, +5 for the CR of the creature (or more if he exceeds the free construction points) giving him a DC of 26 to actually pull it off.
That's my understanding anyway.
Using the SRD alternate rules, the DC = 5 + 4 (HD) + X (construct mods) + 5 (missing Animate Objects) + 5 (missing Permanency] + 5 (insufficient CL) = 24 + X.
Lets assume 5th level wizard.
initial int=18
level up=+1
headband=+2
int mod is 5
spellcraft skill ranks=5
class skill=3
take-10=10
total=23.
You just need 1+X additional bonus on skillcraft to craft it.
Make an Armillary Amulet (magic item of +5 competence on spellcraft), and you can have X up to 4.
If so, then back to my original question because that DC seems pretty high for a mere CR5 construct that can then only be ordered to attack stuff and not move around, or head in such and such a direction, or lie down, or whatever.
So... if this isn't covered in the rules anywhere (I've spent like four hours searching and collating in my books and online), does a houserule regarding it being able to be ordered about in the same way as a standard golem be reasonable?
Ultimate Magic and the Bestary have the main rules you need. The SRD is reasonably well organized, and easy to search. The PRD is more official, but difficult to use.
/cevah
Thanks Cevah.
When I said 'what use is a...' I wasn't asking about the difference between crafting methods, that was just to show I understood there were both ways to do it. Thanks though :) What I think I really meant was "what *uses* are there for an animated object vs a golem?"
'Give it some intelligence' - this made me lol a bit, purely because constructs have an intelligence of "-" so strictly speaking I *can't* give it some intelligence!
But I agree with the sentiment so I'll stop worrying about whether he can give it different orders than 'attack'. So again - thanks very much.
Crafting DC:
First, I'm considering houseruling the crafting DC so that it's CL11 or HD, whichever is higher because that seems more realistic given the min caster level for the animate objects spell itself if you *could* cast it. But that's completely by the by, so let's bench that so I can comment on your other very useful points on RAW!
In terms of his crafting roll and your assumptions - nowhere close to that.
1. We play a roll 4d6 take the highest game, not the point buy game and
2. we use the random loot tables unless it's treasure in the adventure path we're on (serpent's skull, we *just* got to Saventh Yhi)
In other words, he has all kinds of scrolls and potions, and not even a +1 Int item, never mind a +2 and a starting score of 18 was not what the dice gods gave him (you should see his Wis score...).
He is a Win7/Sorc1 (currently, but this isn't a discussion of his build choices...) Mordant Spire Elf with an Int of 18 even after level ups and racial mods - and yes that's his highest stat. So that's:
Casting stat +4
Spellcraft ranks +8
Class skill +3
For a total of 15 with a take ten putting it to 25, which is just over the DC even with my house rule (if I use the correct 4HD instead of 5Hd, d'oh!) or, with the RAW alternative animated object crafting rules, plenty more than enough :)
So I should have worked out what he actually had in terms of roll chance sooner, clearly. Anyway, whether it's do-able or not wasn't really the point, it was that it seemed like a high DC, but when you lay the numbers out like that for a L8 character it really isn't that 'high' at all.
And more or less everything I learned before I posted I'd gotten from the sources you quoted (I have all the core rulebooks and bestiary 1 but not the adventure path that alternative rules come from, and it was a lot easier to just look at the rules combined in basically one or two pages online than to use the books for this).
Anyway - thank you, you've soothed my concerns :)
Edit: actually I do have one point of contention:
From what I can tell, the crafting DC should not be affected by construct mods nor does it have a 'caster level' requirement.
According to the alternative crafting rules:
CP additions affect only
1. the cost and
2. the CR (and only then if they are not part of the freebies based on size).
There's no minimum CL listed under 'requirements' and the +5DC increases you can take when you are using Craft Construct are ONLY for 'Requirements' you don't meet.
If there IS a min caster level requirement that I've missed, then under the alternative crafting rules it would only be equal to HD anyway which in this case 4, well under the character's caster level anyway.
Do I have that right?
If so, then with the alternative crafting rules the DC for the animated stone megaraptor for this character should be:
4HD (Large construct based on Megaraptor, both of which are 4HD) +5(no animate object)+5(no permanency).
or 14. 21 with my houserule (which would have a 'HD' starting at 11 because that's the min caster level of animate objects and that's higher than the 4HD creature).
... and now I will go look at Homonculus.
This is very interesting. Of course you would probably never animate a whole ship unless it was specially constructed with useful movable components as it is a waste to animate something that large when most of it doesn't need to move to function. You would be much more likely to animate a propeller or the rigging or the large weapons. It is likely a lot cheaper to animate a couple of large objects than one colossal one.
What I think I really meant was "what *uses* are there for an animated object vs a golem?"
Coat-rack, butler, mannequin, .... Oh, you mean in combat? Mount, flanking buddy, defender of squishies, cover, and distraction. Also useful for lifting you up to the 15' ceiling w/o fly or levitate. Just be sure you are aware of their limitations.
'Give it some intelligence' - this made me lol a bit, purely because constructs have an intelligence of "-" so strictly speaking I *can't* give it some intelligence!
Yes you can. Example. Just above that text is how to give more of what it already has. Also, while constructs typically are mindless, not all are.
In terms of his crafting roll and your assumptions - nowhere close to that.
1. We play a roll 4d6 take the highest game, not the point buy game and
2. we use the random loot tables unless it's treasure in the adventure path we're on (serpent's skull, we *just* got to Saventh Yhi)In other words, he has all kinds of scrolls and potions, and not even a +1 Int item, never mind a +2 and a starting score of 18 was not what the dice gods gave him (you should see his Wis score...).
To have Craft Construct, he needs Craft Wondrous. He can craft that headband if he wants.
He is aWinWiz7/Sorc1
Huh? You just got to 7th and he is 8th? :)
(currently, but this isn't a discussion of his build choices...) Mordant Spire Elf with an Int of 18 even after level ups and racial mods - and yes that's his highest stat. So that's:
Casting stat +4
Spellcraft ranks +8
Class skill +3For a total of 15 with a take ten putting it to 25, which is just over the DC even with my house rule (if I use the correct 4HD instead of 5Hd, d'oh!) or, with the RAW alternative animated object crafting rules, plenty more than enough :)
18 at 8th? Must not have much luck landing the save or die/suck spells. Doable, but you need to plan for it.
Anyway - thank you, you've soothed my concerns :)
Edit: actually I do have one point of contention:
From what I can tell, the crafting DC should not be affected by construct mods nor does it have a 'caster level' requirement.
Basic Modifications, Hit Dice Modification, lets you bump up the HD, which ups the CL.
According to the alternative crafting rules:
CP additions affect only
1. the cost and
2. the CR (and only then if they are not part of the freebies based on size).There's no minimum CL listed under 'requirements'
My bad.
and the +5DC increases you can take when you are using Craft Construct are ONLY for 'Requirements' you don't meet.
If there IS a min caster level requirement that I've missed, then under the alternative crafting rules it would only be equal to HD anyway which in this case 4, well under the character's caster level anyway.
Do I have that right?
Rune Carved are modifications with some CL requirements, I think.
If so, then with the alternative crafting rules the DC for the animated stone megaraptor for this character should be:
4HD (Large construct based on Megaraptor, both of which are 4HD) +5(no animate object)+5(no permanency).
or 14. 21 with my houserule (which would have a 'HD' starting at 11 because that's the min caster level of animate objects and that's higher than the 4HD creature).
... and now I will go look at Homonculus.
At 8th level, a 4HD critter won't me much protection or damage. You might want to go higher HD to start. Remember, once created, you only can increase HD by 50%.
Have fun with the Homonculus.
You should also check out:
Williamoaks construct crafter guide Or How I learned to stop worrying and build an army of mechanical slaves
(Discussion)
/cevah
Coat-rack, butler, mannequin, .... Oh, you mean in combat? Mount, flanking buddy, defender of squishies, cover, and distraction. Also useful for lifting you up to the 15' ceiling w/o fly or levitate. Just be sure you are aware of their limitations.
Yes you can. Example. Just above that text is how to give more of what it already has. Also, while constructs typically are mindless, not all are.
To have Craft Construct, he needs Craft Wondrous. He can craft that headband if he wants.
Huh? You just got to 7th and he is 8th? :)
Thanks again :)
I meant uses in general. Can he order it to pick things up (in it's oh so delicate giant maw...), can he order it to shove things or prop up a roof? Like I say, he's not actually building it for combat, that's just a side effect. What he's after is the cool intimidating mount, I'm just thinking ahead to the inevitable 'get it to push that tree over and help us clear a path' type situations. I suppose it's being ordered to 'attack' the tree in that case, but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.
Re other mods and boosting the crafting DC - don't know how I hadn't spotted the general construct mods on that page. I guess I was kinda thinking he could only use the animated object Construction Point list on mods, and the other Craft Construct mods were only for golems. But of course they're general. So yeah, that could boost the DC to craft. Some of them just increase the CR however, which has no bearing on the crafting DC, only on cost. Giving it 2 intelligence (like a smart animal which could take 'trick' level instructions) would cost him 10K for instance but not increase the DC.
Hmm. If it has Int doesn't that mean it could learn? I mean, aren't we opening a can of worms there about teaching tricks and 'handle construct' skills and the like?
/meh. I can open that can no worries, if need be.
Re the wondrous item - yes he could craft it. But he hasn't. Hasn't got the mats, or basically has other priorities - the loot gods have not been kind to the group, so his crafting time is on utility stuff like goggles of darkvision, always-on endure elements so they can wander aroudn the jungle fully kitted up, that kind of thing, and since they're in a 'race' for Saventh Yhi there hasn't exactly been a lot of opportunity for downtime and crafting.
Who says we just got to 7th? not sure what you're getting at here. We just got to Saventh Yhi, was that a pun on 'saventh' that I missed? My head's still a bit spinning from all the crafting stuff...
As it happens, they SHOULD have just hit 7th level. But whilst the loot gods have not been kind at all, the random encounter gods have blessed them, repeatedly with an abundance of hostile jungle critters. None of which carry loot as standard, of course. This adventure path is definitely not monty haul, they're going to be very disappointed when they see all the loot Saventh yhi doesn't have...
Oh - I did look at the guide you linked as part of my research. My player really wants to do one of the things on the 'never bother with' list. /shrug.
And I looked at the homonculous. I have a thematic problem with a 'little man' being shaped like a dinosaur. Also it says it should be vaguely humanoid, which is not what my player is after.
I did have one other question - attacks. Does an animated object basically just get a single slam attack regardless of form? If it's shaped like a megaraptor, with skull and tail and foreclaws etc. do I need to buy these attacks as 'extra natural attacks' or does it just get them? (My default position for the player is that they need to be purchased, particularly since the player isn't really making it as a combat pet).
I meant uses in general. Can he order it to pick things up (in it's oh so delicate giant maw...), can he order it to shove things or prop up a roof? Like I say, he's not actually building it for combat, that's just a side effect. What he's after is the cool intimidating mount, I'm just thinking ahead to the inevitable 'get it to push that tree over and help us clear a path' type situations. I suppose it's being ordered to 'attack' the tree in that case, but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.
If it can understand a language, and can manipulate stuff, then this should be easy. However, if its Dex is low, it might be clumsy, so knocking that tree down is good, but picking up that fragile glass vase might not be.
Re other mods and boosting the crafting DC - don't know how I hadn't spotted the general construct mods on that page. I guess I was kinda thinking he could only use the animated object Construction Point list on mods, and the other Craft Construct mods were only for golems. But of course they're general. So yeah, that could boost the DC to craft. Some of them just increase the CR however, which has no bearing on the crafting DC, only on cost. Giving it 2 intelligence (like a smart animal which could take 'trick' level instructions) would cost him 10K for instance but not increase the DC.
Hmm. If it has Int doesn't that mean it could learn? I mean, aren't we opening a can of worms there about teaching tricks and 'handle construct' skills and the like?
/meh. I can open that can no worries, if need be.
My example had Int 1. The homunculus has much better. The notes indicate that they get feats for hit die and skill points also. So yes, they can learn. I agree that at int 1 and int 2, you can teach it tricks per handle animal, but at higher levels it has full human understanding. It may not comprehend much since it is pretty dumb, but the versatility is there if you can walk it through the procedure. Also, a +2 headband for the Int 1 construct would be a little cheaper.
Re the wondrous item - yes he could craft it. But he hasn't. Hasn't got the mats, or basically has other priorities - the loot gods have not been kind to the group, so his crafting time is on utility stuff like goggles of darkvision, always-on endure elements so they can wander aroudn the jungle fully kitted up, that kind of thing, and since they're in a 'race' for Saventh Yhi there hasn't exactly been a lot of opportunity for downtime and crafting.
What materials? Unlike armor and weapons, wondrous items have no material cost because the material is practically free.
For time, he can get 4 hours crafting per day worth 2 hours time (=250 gp worth final price). If he can get a full block of 4 hours, it will be worth the full 4 hours. This is on top of the normal 8 hour working day. If you are using the 15 minute adventure day, getting that 4 hour block is easy. Likewise if you get the Ring of Sustenance for 2500 gp, you can get that 4 hour block.
Who says we just got to 7th? not sure what you're getting at here. We just got to Saventh Yhi, was that a pun on 'saventh' that I missed? My head's still a bit spinning from all the crafting stuff...
I misread "Saventh Yhi" as "Seventh, Yea!". :-)
And I looked at the homonculous. I have a thematic problem with a 'little man' being shaped like a dinosaur. Also it says it should be vaguely humanoid, which is not what my player is after.
If the mechanics are the same, the form does not matter as it is fluff. The "vaguely humanoid" is the legacy of mythic tradition of the homunculus being a miniature version of its creator. Charge him an extra 100 gp for a non-standard form, if you want to make him work for it.
I did have one other question - attacks. Does an animated object basically just get a single slam attack regardless of form? If it's shaped like a megaraptor, with skull and tail and foreclaws etc. do I need to buy these attacks as 'extra natural attacks' or does it just get them? (My default position for the player is that they need to be purchased, particularly since the player isn't really making it as a combat pet).
You get the attacks of the construct design you follow. For more, you need to use the modification rules. I would allow a replacement of the "Slam" with a single primary attack like a "Bite", but be careful the damage is appropriate for the swapped attack. I.e., no getting lots of extra damage because the dinosaur gets extra on a bite. The "Slam" might go to "Tail" attack instead. Remember, with some intelligence, 4HD gets 2 feats (5HD gets 3). At less than 3 int, you only get ones animals get, but at 3 or better, all are open.
/cevah
ok, definitely worth considering all of that.
Also there's a +5DC mod we are missing that I spotted in my copy of Ultimate Magic - craft construct is CL+5 like any other magic item craft role.
...and in terms of adding int, another question: with construction modifications say specifically that you cannot add an ability score to an ability with a score of zero. Animate object has an int of '-'. Should that not be treated as zero?
ok, definitely worth considering all of that.
Also there's a +5DC mod we are missing that I spotted in my copy of Ultimate Magic - craft construct is CL+5 like any other magic item craft role.
...and in terms of adding int, another question: with construction modifications say specifically that you cannot add an ability score to an ability with a score of zero. Animate object has an int of '-'. Should that not be treated as zero?
That +5 you spotted is the standard base DC = CL + 5.
The "-" should be treated as zero.
Here is a selection of constructs with Int > 0. Replace "|" with a tab and paste into a spreadsheet. I already filtered for size(small,medium,large).
Name|CR|Size|AC|HP|HD|Fort|Ref|Will|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Aballonian|7|Medium|20|75|10|3|7|5|19|14|-|17|10|11
Robot, Arachnid|1/2|Small|14|15|1|0|1|1|9|13|-|10|12|1
Sentinel, Bronze|3|Small|18|32|4|1|4|1|18|16|-|1|11|5
Chrystone|4|Medium|15|42|4|1|0|3|17|9|-|8|11|1
Ebon Acolytus|7|Large|20|79|9|3|2|3|22|8|10|10|11|1
Golem, Gelatinous|10|Large|24|114|13|6|7|6|22|12|-|3|11|1
Hanshepsu|10|Medium|24|102|15|5|11|8|22|18|-|11|13|5
Robot, Mannequin|2|Medium|13|31|2|0|1|0|15|12|-|10|11|1
Sentinel, Marble|4|Small|20|43|6|2|5|2|20|16|-|1|11|5
Golem, Mask|4|Medium|17|42|4|1|6|2|18|17|-|7|12|13
Mythic Flesh Golem|9|Large|23|145|10|3|2|3|22|9|-|6|11|1
Ossuary Golem|11|Large|23|96|12|4|6|6|22|10|-|2|14|10
Pestilential Cadaver|7|Medium|19|64|8|2|3|2|16|12|-|10|10|12
Philosopher Golem|9|Large|20|112|15|5|5|9|20|11|-|15|15|15
Robot, Scrapyard|3|Medium|14|42|4|1|0|1|17|8|-|5|10|1
Sentient Wax Golem|4|Medium|15|47|5|3|2|1|14|9|-|10|11|1
Skull Ripper|9|Large|24|112|15|5|10|6|22|16|-|5|13|12
Soulbound Mannequin|7|Medium|19|85|10|3|6|3|18|16|-|11|10|9
Soulbound Shell|12|Medium|26|132|15|5|6|7|13|13|-|20|10|13
Terra-cotta Soldier|6|Medium|19|64|8|2|5|2|16|16|-|1|11|1
Robot, Torturer|8|Small|23|105|10|3|8|5|8|21|-|10|15|1
Wyrwood|1/2|Small|16|18|1|0|5|1|14|17|-|15|12|6
/cevah
ok, definitely worth considering all of that.
Also there's a +5DC mod we are missing that I spotted in my copy of Ultimate Magic - craft construct is CL+5 like any other magic item craft role.
...and in terms of adding int, another question: with construction modifications say specifically that you cannot add an ability score to an ability with a score of zero. Animate object has an int of '-'. Should that not be treated as zero?
That +5 you spotted is the standard base DC = CL + 5.
The "-" should be treated as zero.
Here is a selection of constructs with Int > 0. Replace "|" with a tab and paste into a spreadsheet. I already filtered for size(small,medium,large).
** spoiler omitted **...
Appreciate that such constructs exist, what I'm saying is that according to the rules... they shouldn't. Which is fine for named "monsters" or things which have specific rules to allow it (e.g. Golems or homonculi) but I'm not sure it is ok for a player-made 'cheap shortcut' construct like an Animated Object. Or am I being too restrictive?
Appreciate that such constructs exist, what I'm saying is that according to the rules... they shouldn't. Which is fine for named "monsters" or things which have specific rules to allow it (e.g. Golems or homonculi) but I'm not sure it is ok for a player-made 'cheap shortcut' construct like an Animated Object. Or am I being too restrictive?
A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature. A construct has the following features.d10 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
No good saving throws.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Constructs do not have any class skills, regardless of their Intelligence scores.
...
Not sure where you are getting constructs must be mindless.
Each kind of construct has a method of creation. Some get intelligence from their creation, some do not. Granting intelligence takes extra effort (and thus cost).
I think you are being too restrictive. However, there is nothing that states the player knows the method. You could require research or a quest to learn how to make one, and apply a discount to the cost for researching or following the quest.
The short-cut is not cheap, and there are rules to follow as I have listed above.
/cevah
I'm not getting that "constructs must be mindless" from anywhere - I'm getting that *Animated Objects* made permanent with Craft Construct are mindless, because:
1. The text for adding ability scores to constructs from Ultimate Magic says: "Ability Score Modification: Using this modification, a crafter can permanently increase one of the construct's ability scores by +2 per modification. He cannot increase any abilities with a score of 0."
2. An "Animated Object", according to the Bestiary listing (ref here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/animatedObject.html#animated-ob ject), has Int -, which we said earlier was effectively 'zero'.
So... a purely 'animated object' - i.e. not a named construct like a terracota warrior, one of the golems or a mithral cobra - cannot have it's Int increased, can it?
I'm well aware that there are any number of constructs he could create that DO have an Int score, but he is wanting a quick and dirty construct since he doesn't have time/access to a lab to really craft one during an adventure - Serpent's Skull, up to now, is essentially a 'race' to get several hundred miles mostly through dense jungle - so he can (and has) spent his four hours a day making minor items which don't require too much special or large quantities of raw material. But four tonnes of clay waiting to be made into an animated object? Not really!
After you get to Saventh Yhi you're still racing to 'discover' things, but they now have a static base to craft from so he doesn't need to pack up and move every day, so the time has come (in his mind) to make a scary mount with his spare 4 hrs a day which will incidentally give him an elevated position to cast spells & shoot his bow from, now they're not constantly fighting through jungle. That his mount might be able to bite stuff that gets too close is just gravy.
He *could* make something more advanced, but it will take him weeks to send back to Sargava for all the special ingredients for golems etc., even assuming he had the cash, which he doesn't.
What he DOES have is access to Fabricate (70 cu ft), Transmute Mud to Rock (which he doesn't technically 'need' as he will still have to spend construction points on 'stone', but symbolically it's a nice touch so I might give it an extra point of hardness for the effort), and manpower to dig him a sufficient quantity of mud for him to use both of those spells on.
I can't speak for the wisdom of what he wants to do of course (it will be a CR5 construct in a CR7-12 area unless he adds loads of modifications, but he doesn't really have the funds to do that. Once they've made some discoveries in Saventh Yhi I could let him trade off that with their faction however), I just wanted to work out what it was capable of doing so I could a: tell him what he needed to do to craft it (which I now know, thanks very much!) and set his expectations about it's effectiveness since it seems to be mindless and purely for 'attack' purposes according to the various references.
I think I will go with "mindless but can be given single task instructions for whatever it's morphology would let it do (ram that, bite that, lie down, stop, move over there, etc.)" rather than 'it can only attack things'.
Thanks for all the time you've spent on this Cevah, really helpful.
I'm not getting that "constructs must be mindless" from anywhere - I'm getting that *Animated Objects* made permanent with Craft Construct are mindless, because:
1. The text for adding ability scores to constructs from Ultimate Magic says: "Ability Score Modification: Using this modification, a crafter can permanently increase one of the construct's ability scores by +2 per modification. He cannot increase any abilities with a score of 0."
2. An "Animated Object", according to the Bestiary listing (ref here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/animatedObject.html#animated-ob ject), has Int -, which we said earlier was effectively 'zero'.
So... a purely 'animated object' - i.e. not a named construct like a terracota warrior, one of the golems or a mithral cobra - cannot have it's Int increased, can it?
If you limit your formulas to mindless constructs, then you get mindless. That is where the construct mod where you give it a brain comes into play.
...he is wanting a quick and dirty construct since he doesn't have time/access to a lab to really craft one during an adventure...
Quality, Quick, Cheap: pick two. :-)
After you get to Saventh Yhi you're still racing to 'discover' things, but they now have a static base to craft from so he doesn't need to pack up and move every day, so the time has come (in his mind) to make a scary mount with his spare 4 hrs a day which will incidentally give him an elevated position to cast spells & shoot his bow from, now they're not constantly fighting through jungle. That his mount might be able to bite stuff that gets too close is just gravy.
The Mount spell gives him a nice mount. He can cast spells and shoot his bow from it quite easily. It is also quite cheap. 25 gp for a scroll to learn the spell, and one 1st level spell slot for 14 hours of riding. Not scary, but for that price, you can't get everything. Phantom Steed is 3rd, will last 7 hours, regular animals shun it, it has better AC, better speed. Next level, you can ride over sandy, muddy, or even swampy ground without difficulty or decrease in speed.
He *could* make something more advanced, but it will take him weeks to send back to Sargava for all the special ingredients for golems etc., even assuming he had the cash, which he doesn't.
What he DOES have is access to Fabricate (70 cu ft), Transmute Mud to Rock (which he doesn't technically 'need' as he will still have to spend construction points on 'stone', but symbolically it's a nice touch so I might give it an extra point of hardness for the effort), and manpower to dig him a sufficient quantity of mud for him to use both of those spells on.
Lack of cash is a big problem as all constructs cost a lot.
Just what special materials are needed? If your construct is not made of metal, the materials should be readily available.
I don't think Fabricate needs the mud to be dug up. It would just grab it from the ground directly. [I think trees would need to be cut, as plants are life forms.]
I can't speak for the wisdom of what he wants to do of course (it will be a CR5 construct in a CR7-12 area unless he adds loads of modifications, but he doesn't really have the funds to do that. Once they've made some discoveries in Saventh Yhi I could let him trade off that with their faction however), I just wanted to work out what it was capable of doing so I could a: tell him what he needed to do to craft it (which I now know, thanks very much!) and set his expectations about it's effectiveness since it seems to be mindless and purely for 'attack' purposes according to the various references.
Other things to look into are Figurines of Wondrous Power, Carpet of Flying, and Broom of Flying.
I think I will go with "mindless but can be given single task instructions for whatever it's morphology would let it do (ram that, bite that, lie down, stop, move over there, etc.)" rather than 'it can only attack things'.
That actually fits in with the mythology of animated objects, so looks good to me.
Thanks for all the time you've spent on this Cevah, really helpful.
You're welcome
/cevah
Who zapped my avatar?
/cevah
Who zapped my avatar?
/cevah
was wondering that about my avatar. I certainly didn't set it that way. Is it supposed to be some kind of punishment? Is someone going to tell me what I did wrong?
...anyway. Yes I think we're in agreement Cevah - he wants quick & cheapish (check), he wants magical and impressive (check). He's explicitly said he knows it would not be a true Golem (check). He just thought it might be the GM's job to try to piece it all together (by which he meant 'I really can't be bothered, can you look into it' and it piqued my interest, so I said yes).
Thankfully, thanks to all this discussion, I also know what to do if now having gone through all the books and website and back and forth he decides actually he'd rather go for a full on Golem.
There are of course much better options for a mount. But he's got his heart set on a damn stone dinosaur, who am I to say no if it's within the rules and his character can pull it off?
Re special materials - I dunno, I just figured there had to be SOME for a proper full-on elemental-bound golem. I know there's quite a few high level spells required for many golems, just figured there'd have to be some 'oil of an Aboleth's Ink Sack' or something :)
There are of course much better options for a mount. But he's got his heart set on a damn stone dinosaur, who am I to say no if it's within the rules and his character can pull it off?
Well, stone is readily available. Just gotta dig down. r cast Wall of Stone.
Re special materials - I dunno, I just figured there had to be SOME for a proper full-on elemental-bound golem. I know there's quite a few high level spells required for many golems, just figured there'd have to be some 'oil of an Aboleth's Ink Sack' or something :)
In earlier editions, you often would have to DM quest to get special materials, i.e., go out into the wilderness. Well, he's there anyway, so make him spend time gathering special plants and animals that he can render down to get the needed special oils. By taking effort, he can gain value (per GM fiat), that could allow him to meet those hefty material costs. No one said there is only one way to the finished product.
/cevah
/cevahThere are of course much better options for a mount. But he's got his heart set on a damn stone dinosaur, who am I to say no if it's within the rules and his character can pull it off?Well, stone is readily available. Just gotta dig down. r cast Wall of Stone.
He'd still have to pick 'stone' as a construction point option though I think, right?
Yep.
/cevah
OK, so playing with this a bit, to work out exactly what my player could potentially unleash with just a little bit of effort/resources.
I make it that he can make:
Neutral Large construct (stone megaraptor)
CR11 [CR5 plus additional 4 based on CP spend, +2 from HD increase]
Init -1
Senses darkvision 60, low-light vision; Perception -5
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
BaB +6
CMB +13 CMD +22
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 8, flat-footed 13 (-1 Dex, +8 natural, -1 size)
Hardness 8 (stone)
hp ~73 (5d10+30 size)
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will -4
Defensive Abilities: Immune Construct Traits
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee (all primary attacks according to the table):
Bite: +11 (2d6 +13 x3) piercing
Foreclaws: slam +11 (1d8 +13)
2x Talons: +11 (1d8 +13 x3) slashing
Tail: slam +11 (1d8+13) +5ft reach – not actually a 'tail slap'. Its a slam attack, the one it started with.
We got to those stats by adding:
3 Free Construction Points:
- Stone (hardness 8)
- extra natural attack (bite)
- Improved Attack (melee attacks 1 size larger)
Additional 8 Construction Points:
-Piercing attack (bite x3 threat)
-Exceptional Reach (tail)
-Extra natural attack (Talon)
-Extra natural attack (talon)
-Slashing Attack (talon x3 threat)
-Slashing Attack (talon x3 threat)
-Extra Natural attack (foreclaws)
-Faster.
Contruct Modification Extra Hit Dice x2. HD goes from 4 to 6.
This adds to cost as follows:base cost/HD per extra Hit Die added. Base HD are 4, +8 extra CP = base cost is 12K. 12k/4 is 3k per Hit Die added, adding 6K to total cost
Each HD adds "10.5" hit points so 21hp extra (or I'd let the player roll)
Also adds:
+2 CR
+3 AC
+2 to attack
+4 damage
Using my house rule (that says the craft DC is 11 or HD whichever is *higher*, rather than going with either always DC 11 as per the UM rule or always HD according to the alternative crafting rule), then I think that all of the above is calculated for crafting as follows:
Craft Cost: 10K gp [6 HD + 8 extra CP =14 x1000gp. 14000gp plus 6K for extra 2 HD added as modification). Then ½ price for construction cost. Materials are no cost (lots of mud. fabricate to shape).
List Price: 20Kgp [if going to sell]
Spellcraft DC:26 [11+5 (standard craft construct)+10 (2 spells missing)]
Time to craft: 10 days [craft cost / 1000 in days]
Note if I used the pure 'alternative' animated object crafting rules the DC to craft would be even lower - 5 lower! - as it would be based on HD6.
Do I have that all correct?
Also, Rules say to use the adding hit dice rules for monsters, which grant a feat based on number of total HD. Whilst I wouldn't let him 'backfill', would it get the extra feat it is owed for having HD6 as opposed to it's original HD4?
If I have all that right (regardless of the feat question) that's... pretty sick. Surely I've overlooked some balancing feature?
OK, so playing with this a bit, to work out exactly what my player could potentially unleash with just a little bit of effort/resources.
I make it that he can make:
Neutral Large construct (stone megaraptor)
CR11 [CR5 plus additional 4 based on CP spend, +2 from HD increase]
CR10. Only +1 from extra HD. [Bestiary, p291, table 1-1, based on extra hp raising CR from 5 to 6.]
Init -1
Senses darkvision 60, low-light vision; Perception -5STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
BaB +6
CMB +13 CMD +22DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 8, flat-footed 13 (-1 Dex, +8 natural, -1 size)
Base large animated object is 14/8/14, stone bumps the natural armor by 1 not 2.
AC 15, touch 8, flat-footed 15 (-1 Dex, +7 natural, -1 size)Hardness 8 (stone)
hp ~73 (5d10+30 size)
You added 1 HD @ 21hp. That is a 1d40. Not sure where you found that.
You should add 2 HD @ 5.5 each. No bonus since Con is "-".hp 63 (6d10+30 size)
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will -4
More HD means better saves.
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -3Defensive Abilities: Immune Construct Traits
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee (all primary attacks according to the table):
Bite: +11 (2d6 +13 x3) piercing
When you only have a single attack, you get 1.5*Str mod.
When you have multiple attacks, primary attacks get 1.0*Str and secondary attacks get 0.5*Str. Not sure where you got your modifier.Bite: +11 (2d6 +6 x3) piercing
Foreclaws: slam +11 (1d8 +13)
Per megaraptor, the foreclaws are statted as secondary attacks. They fall under "other" on the table.
Foreclaws: slam +11 (1d8 +3)2x Talons: +11 (1d8 +13 x3) slashing
2x Talons: +11 (1d8 +6 x3) slashing
Tail: slam +11 (1d8+13) +5ft reach – not actually a 'tail slap'. Its a slam attack, the one it started with.
Tail: slam +11 (1d8+6) +5ft reach.
-- I would rule the tail cannot attack the same creature as the bite & foreclaws....
This adds to cost as follows:base cost/HD per extra Hit Die added. Base HD are 4, +8 extra CP = base cost is 12K. 12k/4 is 3k per Hit Die added, adding 6K to total cost
You added 2 HD and 8 CP.
Per standard pricing, "As a rough guideline, a construct’s price is equal to its challenge rating squared, then multiplied by 500 gp." At CR 10, that is 50,000 plus base materials.Per alternate picing, "Price varies (cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])." 6HD and 11 CP, that is 17,000 plus base materials.
Per the proportional rule cited above for adding to an existing construct, you get 18,000.
Pick from the above as you wish.
Each HD adds "10.5" hit points so 21hp extra (or I'd let the player roll)
Re-read the table. 10.5 is for 1d20. You are adding 2d10 giving 2*5.5, i.e. 11 hp.
Also adds:
+2 CR
Look again at the table that shows CR and hp mentioned above.
+3 AC
HD has no effect on AC.
+2 to attack
+4 damage
HD has no effect on damage.
I think you were trying to adjust CR, then use the mods in the avg stats by CR table to come up with that. Adding HD does not work that way. For this construct, it affects hp, saves, and BAB only.
Putting this all together, I get:
XP 9,600
N Large construct
Init -1 Senses darkvision 60, low-light vision; Perception -5
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 8, flat-footed 15 (-1 Dex, +7 natural, -1 size)
hp 63 (6d10+30 size)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -3
Defensive Abilities hardness 8 Immune Construct Traits
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee:
tail +5' slam +11 (1d8+6)
bite +11 (2d6+6) crit 20x3
2x Talon +11 (1d8+6) crit 20x3
foreclaw +6 (1d8+3)
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Base Atk +6 CMB +13 CMD 22
Using my house rule (that says the craft DC is 11 or HD whichever is *higher*, rather than going with either always DC 11 as per the UM rule or always HD according to the alternative crafting rule), then I think that all of the above is calculated for crafting as follows:
Craft Cost: 10K gp [6 HD + 8 extra CP =14 x1000gp. 14000gp plus 6K for extra 2 HD added as modification). Then ½ price for construction cost.
You are mixing price formulas in a strange way. Pick one of the three formulas and stick with it. Price is 50K, 17K, or 18K, and cost is half.
Materials are no cost (lots of mud. fabricate to shape).
There is a cost to the stone. The Caryatid Column is a medium statue at 2,000 gp. You have a large statue, so at the same quality, I would price it at 4,000. Fabricate cuts this to 1,334 gp cost, but adds a crafting DC to look realistic.
List Price: 20Kgp [if going to sell]
Spellcraft DC:26 [11+5 (standard craft construct)+10 (2 spells missing)]
Time to craft: 10 days [craft cost / 1000 in days]Note if I used the pure 'alternative' animated object crafting rules the DC to craft would be even lower - 5 lower! - as it would be based on HD6.
Do I have that all correct?
Also, Rules say to use the adding hit dice rules for monsters, which grant a feat based on number of total HD. Whilst I wouldn't let him 'backfill', would it get the extra feat it is owed for having HD6 as opposed to it's original HD4?
If I have all that right (regardless of the feat question) that's... pretty sick. Surely I've overlooked some balancing feature?
This construct has no int, so gets no skills or feats.
/cevah
The process I used was to start with the large animated object and apply CPs and HD to that. Took almost 3 hours. :-)
/cevah
That's the approach I took too, and it took similar time!
Good catch on the 11.5HD per level, I did indeed read that table very wrongly indeed, particularly since I knew it was a D10 hit die creature so I have no idea why I'd think 11.5 per HD was reasonable. But I did say I'd let the player roll their D10s, so it's a moot point really.
Cost confusion:
Both the UM version and the alternate version say under construction costs:
You've said 11CP, I only factored in the 8 over and above the freebies that all 'Large' animated objects come with. Are you saying that the initial cost is supposed to include the ones that a relevant sized construct gets automatically?
For ref, I used the alternative rules costs because, whilst I wanted the DC to have a minimum level on it, I thought cost being so directly based on HD was reasonably sensible: animated objects are dumb, and stay dumb (not one of the 'animated objects' on the example list on the PFSRD has an Int score) so I was happy to use the lower cost figure from the alternate rules. If we do include the three freebies then this gets me to your 17K figure.
Hit Dice confusion:
Under the relevant construct modification to add hit dice it says:
"Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary."
I used this for ref: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement
Adding hit die has knock on effects to the other steps (one of which is look at the table and factor in all those AC, attack and damage bonuses). Was this not the correct set of rules to be using? Having to use online rules for that so was guessing a bit - a Bestiary is the only one of the core books that I don't own so I tend to use the PFSRD for enemies & monster rules until I get around to buying one.
Damage confusion:
I did wonder whether I was adding too much in the way of str mod. I read that primary natural attacks get full bab and Str on damage rolls, which I still make as +11 (+5 Str, +6 BAB due to Bab shown on table for monster HD advancement) damage, not the +6s you are showing.
Note that a real megaraptor's foreclaws are 'other'. The constructs however are a "Slam", and are slams not listed as primary attacks?
Note - I thought calling them slams was pretty cheesy of me personally, so I'm happy to reclassify to "secondary".
Thanks for the skills & feats point. Quite right.
/sigh.
We need to make a step by step animated objects guide, with all this stuff in one place. The written stuff is clearly too convoluted for me to follow if I got so much wrong. Or if you got so much wrong. ONE of us is wrong about some or all of the differences between our versions!
Or rather than wonderful but half finished construct guide could do with a section adding that actually walks you through the construction process.
Or we need rules on "mimicking" natural creatures as constructs, my player can't be the first to think of it.
Cost confusion:
Both the UM version and the alternate version say under construction costs:
You've said 11CP, I only factored in the 8 over and above the freebies that all 'Large' animated objects come with. Are you saying that the initial cost is supposed to include the ones that a relevant sized construct gets automatically?
As the formulas mention CPs even when you are not adding extra, I think the free ones need to be counted.
Hit Dice confusion:
Under the relevant construct modification to add hit dice it says:
"Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary."I used this for ref: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement
Adding hit die has knock on effects to the other steps (one of which is look at the table and factor in all those AC, attack and damage bonuses). Was this not the correct set of rules to be using? Having to use online rules for that so was guessing a bit - a Bestiary is the only one of the core books that I don't own so I tend to use the PFSRD for enemies & monster rules until I get around to buying one.
The table you are reading is for calculating stats by CR, not for CR by HD. That is why you don't use it that way. When you level up, do you gain better AC for free? No. Neither do constructs.
Damage confusion:
I did wonder whether I was adding too much in the way of str mod. I read that primary natural attacks get full bab and Str on damage rolls, which I still make as +11 (+5 Str, +6 BAB due to Bab shown on table for monster HD advancement) damage, not the +6s you are showing.
Note that a real megaraptor's foreclaws are 'other'. The constructs however are a "Slam", and are slams not listed as primary attacks?
Note - I thought calling them slams was pretty cheesy of me personally, so I'm happy to reclassify to "secondary".
"Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls."
I parse this as full bab on the attack and full str on damage. The "and" separates the two halves.
We need to make a step by step animated objects guide, with all this stuff in one place. The written stuff is clearly too convoluted for me to follow if I got so much wrong. Or if you got so much wrong. ONE of us is wrong about some or all of the differences between our versions!
Or rather than wonderful but half finished construct guide could do with a section adding that actually walks you through the construction process.
Or we need rules on "mimicking" natural creatures as constructs, my player can't be the first to think of it.
This should go on the construct guide thread, as that is a better place for it. Perhaps you want to write something, and I can revise, or I will write something and you will revise. Perhaps we can get Williamoak to update his guide.
/cevah
Hit Dice confusion:
Under the relevant construct modification to add hit dice it says:
"Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary."I used this for ref: Monster Advancement
Adding hit die has knock on effects to the other steps (one of which is look at the table and factor in all those AC, attack and damage bonuses). Was this not the correct set of rules to be using? Having to use online rules for that so was guessing a bit - a Bestiary is the only one of the core books that I don't own so I tend to use the PFSRD for enemies & monster rules until I get around to buying one.
Fixed the link for you.
The link you really want is Monster Creation.
Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers.
The next step in creating a monster is to determine the approximate number of Hit Dice it has. Hit Dice determine a wide variety of other statistics, including the creature's feats, skills, Hit Points, attack bonuses, and special ability DCs.
Neither one mentions AC or damage, and CR is tangential.
These rules are geared to picking a CR and generating suitable stats, even if the original is a different CR. If you are adding or subtracting CR, then you use the tables and add/subtract HD, AC, and so on. You are not doing that. You are merely adding HD. When you add a class level, you follow the class's rules which have nothing to do with AC or damage (specific classes may have an exception, like the fighter). Adding racial HD gives even less. See CRB p30 "Advancing Your Character". The HD added is essentially "Monster" class, that only gives BAB, Saves, Skills, Feats, and possibly a Stat point. Look to the Monster Creation rules, steps 6 and 7 for what HD gets you.
/cevah